new fender retrofit problems

[gwarden]

Am I the only one who can't get the hood to line up with the new fenders.
I have spent about two weeks now trying to fit this together.
At first the fenders were too far forward and the hood would fit kinda straight but the cutout for wipers would land right on top of the wiper motor so no fit.
Then I raised the front brackets to try and tilt the fenders back some and have better fit at the doors and windshield frame on passenger side but the driers side is about an inch short of the front of hood lining up with fenders.
If I kick the whole front end over about 2 inches the front of the hood lines up but the fender is way off at the windshield. 516545165551656

[07FIREBLADE]

I started fresh even got a new hood because I messed the old one up pretty bad. Did you get your front completely bolted together with the new grill insert in place. That fixes the front width and your only adjustment is the back width. I saved the wiper install for the new front/top. I know already just from having the fenders bolted in place that I need to open up the fenders which sucks. Thought they would of fixed this issue with the new front end.

[Mechie3]

When Bill and I put his front end together to develop the hinge we used some side clamp clecos. They're around $4/ea from places like MSC or $20 for 4 from jegs. I just found this place last night:

http://omegatec.com/cleco-side-grip-clamps-from-omega-technologies.aspx

Just under $2ea, but a $50 minimum total order (ordered a few different side grips and some 3/16 and 1/4 clecos to make $50). Easy and quick to position and pull things together.

[gwarden]

Yes we have bolted the nose piece onto the fenders and clamped here clamped there the drivers side fender is not the same size as the passenger fender.
51695

[AZPete]

I think you'd better call FFR and send them that photo. I'm glad I haven't received my new front end yet, and hopefully they will change the forms to be equal before shipping mine.

[Mechie3]

Wow, that sucks. Pete, something tells me it likely won't get changed simply because they've already built several cars with it so it "can" be done. However, that'd be like shipping chunks of aluminum saying "well, it can be made into bell cranks". lol. I don't know if it's true but I remember being told (by someone other than FFR) that the body was designed in CAD but then the models were given to a body guy who hand shaped the plugs and molds vs using a large CNC to make plugs. Some of my original S body parts aren't quite symmetric either. I remember back when I had cable TV in college seeing one of the car shows and a company called 5 Axis used a giant CNC to make a foam plug and then make a mold from that. THAT was cool.

[ben1272]

51744

Here are my fenders. I taped them with duct tape to try and get them very aligned so as not to have any question about mis-matched lengths. I think it is primarily mis-shaped where they meet the grill insert.....they are amazingly similar for hand shaped, if they are.

I have not checked the symmetry of my grill insert yet.

[07FIREBLADE]

This thread is getting more and more depressing. I'm going to throw my top back on on see what my gaps look like. I'll post some pics and hopefully we can get this figured out.

[07FIREBLADE]

Pics shortly to follow but my driver side fender is indeed longer than the passenger side. My front is already mocked up and mounted. My hood is square and the back edges do not have the same gaps on both sides. Its about .5" to long this could be the reason why My grill insert was impossible to install.

[ben1272]

I only mocked up my front end body panels using clamps. I did find it tricky to get the insert to match up nicely....it felt like it was going to resist being aligned. I may just go ahead and mount my body panels even though I am not done with plumbing and electrical. I figure I want the panels to be fairly easily removable so I can just remove them after I get the, mounted. Also, this gives me some insight for when routing plumbing and electrical as far as access goes after panels are mounted.

I hope there is a reasonable way to get these mounted/modified without many hours of effort. Do we have any idea how many of these new fenders have been bolted up?

[Frank818]

Too important to not subscribe to this thread.

We can see the 0.5" diff on your pic, it's very obvious. Why so much diff if they are using molds?

[gwarden]

Okay I have managed to get the fenders to fit better.
I was putting all my efforts into making the drivers side match the passengers side.
By pulling on the passenger fender from the front then drilling and bolting it to the upper mounting bracket I was able to get the front of the fenders to fit equally I am a little concerned about the stress on the fender from mounting that way but will have to wait and see.

[metros]

Pictures please!

[ben1272]

I'm going to measure the distance along the hood opening on each fender using a fabric tape measure. That way any differences in curvature of fender are not playing a role in determining how diferent they are.

[07FIREBLADE]

My fenders are mounted and I measured with a tape measurer my results were about .5" off. The front metal tab was tucked under the fender wedged between the grill and fender and wrapped up to the end of the fender. Driver side came out to being 60" and passenger side was 59.5" my gaps would be perfect if I had an extra .5" to work with on the passenger side. The engine power episode is really getting me worked up over this point. My only trimming on the fenders is on the flanges in this section.

Has anyone gotten a response from ffr about fixing this issue. I know for my door liner problem they are going to send me a new panel. I wonder if they will do the same for a fender... I can only hope or I could tell Dave when he comes to HB and he can see for himself... Decisions decisions

[ewingate]

53675
Running into the same issue as you guys. I'm doing a conversion from the original bumper so the hood is still sitting exactly where it needs to be. The passenger side fender lines up perfectly while the driver side is way too long. Will be calling or visiting FFR about this issue.

[bompus]

I asked FFR about the 0.5" difference in fenders ( before I order ) and the response back was that the body was not designed to be symmetrical, so the differences in fender length are to be expected. Who knows if that explanation is bogus or not, it seems a bit odd to me.

[metros]

Yeah! They meant for the fenders to be different! That's logical.

[ben1272]

I cant imagine the difference in fenders is intentional....unless the hood was made first and REQUIRED the fenders to be designed differently in order to work at all. I guess then I would believe that it was intentional! Anyways, some folks have certainly made things line up well enough to look good, so hopefully it is not that difficult to achieve.

[Hindsight]

My guess is the body prototype was hand made out of foam, sanding and shaping. A mold was made from that. More than fenders arent perfectly symmetrical on the 818 and I bet this is why.

Look at companies like Rocketbunny who make full bolt-on fiberglass kits for cars. They arent too expensive and use a computer model to design the panels. Everything would be symmetric. I think they CNC cut the molds. They probably dont sell anywhere near as many kits as FFR does so designing and manufacturing molds this way has to be cost effective, but thats just a guess.

[Mechie3]

I've hears from others that the molds were handmade. My side sails aren't symmetric either.

[metros]

^Maybe that's why the fenders are different lengths. To account for the unequal side-sails.

[Aero STI]

The process to make perfectly symmetrical panels is well known in the composite industry. Hand shape, 3D scan, improve in CAD, CNC carve foam core, and make molds from foam. It's surprising Factory Five hasn't implemented this. I've seen Tiara, Slickcraft, Chris Craft, etc. do this first hand. This would make Factory Five's product way more reputable and should actually be more efficient in the long run.

Better yet, thermo-formed plastic panels!

[ben1272]

Unless you said thermo-formed plastic panels, tongue in cheek, when the 818 project started, I think I remember it was going to include paint-free panels that I think were going to be plastic of some type. Somewhere along the line that concept became un-feasible.

Whenever I start thinking about deficiencies in the kit I remind myself of how much we get for $9900, largely USA made I made add. It is amazing it can be done at all, let alone in Massachusetts! Assuming it lives on, I expect FFR will evolve and improve the 818 just as it has with the MkIV roadster. I cant wait to see what a MkIV 818 looks like! I hope they can continue to make much/all of it backwards compatible.

[flynntuna]

The process to make perfectly symmetrical panels is well known in the composite industry. Hand shape, 3D scan, improve in CAD, CNC carve foam core, and make molds from foam. It's surprising Factory Five hasn't implemented this. I've seen Tiara, Slickcraft, Chris Craft, etc. do this first hand. This would make Factory Five's product way more reputable and should actually be more efficient in the long run.

Better yet, thermo-formed plastic panels!


According to the FFR website the 818 was designed using cad and cnc .


http://www.factoryfive.com/kits/project-818/design/#_compositebodycontent

[Mechie3]

There's some conflicting info in that paragraph. "one piece molds" in one sentence and "most have no parting lines" in the next. If the plugs and/or molds truly were mad on a large CNC the parts should be 100% identical. Design 1 part, mirror it to create the second part in solidworks. The child part is now linked and any updates to the parent is reflected in the child unless you break the link or make copies of the file and don't relink them.

[Frank818]

Then to make the longer fender fit what has to be done? Trim the front of fender? Trim the rear of fender? What happens to the wheel arc, will the wheel be centered?

[07FIREBLADE]

The difference is in the back edge with the door windshield jam. My wheels are centered and the front edge is fine for me. You just have a nasty gap that needs to be addressed.

[07FIREBLADE]

I can't post pics from my phone but I took pics of the ffr setup at the HB show and asked them about this issue.

[ewingate]

I spent some time this weekend finishing up the mounting of the new front end and I'm pretty pleased with how it turned out. I started by mounting the passenger side fender which was pretty spot on everywhere. Then I went to the driver side and mounted the rear of the fender where it wanted to be and moved forward. With some persuasion and flexing, everything bolted together nicely compared to what it looked like just sitting in place.

53765
53766

[STiPWRD]

Is everyone putting rivnuts into the fiberglass to hold the lower back ends of the fenders? This is what the manual has you do:
53787

I feel like eventually, if not initially, the fiberglass would crumble around the rivnut and it would spin in place or pull out completely. I'm thinking of glassing in some studs from the inside of the sails that would stick up for the fender attachments. Anyone else try a different approach?

[GoDadGo]

Is everyone putting rivnuts into the fiberglass to hold the lower back ends of the fenders? This is what the manual has you do:
53787

I feel like eventually, if not initially, the fiberglass would crumble around the rivnut and it would spin in place or pull out completely. I'm thinking of glassing in some studs from the inside of the sails that would stick up for the fender attachments. Anyone else try a different approach?

Could you possibly use a fender washer on both sides to spread the load?

[STiPWRD]

Could you possibly use a fender washer on both sides to spread the load?
That's not a bad idea. It'll depend on the thickness of the fiberglass in that area but worst case I could just sand it down a bit from the inside. Also, I'd have to pick up some 0.390 ID washers. Thanks for the tip.

[Hindsight]

I just put rivnuts in there as shown in the manual. I really am not a fan of doing it for the reason you mentioned but I don't think there will be too much stress on them once the fiberglass "learns" its position. At least, that's the hope. You could glass in a nut but would have to do it after your locating holes have been drilled.

[flynntuna]

I forget who recomended these nut plates, was originally in another thread regarding nutserts. Seems like a good use in this application though. What do you think?


http://www.aircraftfast.com/floating_nut_plates.htm

[07FIREBLADE]

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu293/deathpanda949/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/3AAD53DE-7D80-4AB8-BA93-9FB4B6C55E72.jpg (http://s657.photobucket.com/user/deathpanda949/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/3AAD53DE-7D80-4AB8-BA93-9FB4B6C55E72.jpg.html)
http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu293/deathpanda949/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/6838992D-88CC-46D1-8C69-FE2B2FDBEE42.jpg (http://s657.photobucket.com/user/deathpanda949/media/Mobile%20Uploads/2016-04/6838992D-88CC-46D1-8C69-FE2B2FDBEE42.jpg.html)

Pics of the gaps at the jam location. This is where you will notice the difference in the fender shapes

[STiPWRD]

I forget who recomended these nut plates, was originally in another thread regarding nutserts. Seems like a good use in this application though. What do you think?


http://www.aircraftfast.com/floating_nut_plates.htm
Thanks, that led me to find these on ebay. I picked up 10.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AN366F420A-1-4-20-Fiber-Lock-Nut-Plate-With-Rivet-/331543070898?hash=item4d3181c8b2:g:DGAAAOSw34FVGs5 D&vxp=mtr

[coloskydiver]

Hey guys, I am running into the same issues as some with the retro fit or new fenders in general where my driver side fender is about 1/2" longer than the passenger side. What have you done to get the hood to line up? I have everything clamped together and i am ready to bolt it all together but doesn't line up. Any advise would be appreciated.

[Frank818]

I guess the longer driver fender is definitely a flaw, as mines (and some other people too) are about the same length. Could having FFR send another one be a better option than working around a too long fender?

[07FIREBLADE]

The problem with that is even there fenders on there sema car wasn't symmetrical. I took pictures of the gaps at the HB show. They just lived with it. Until the molds are remade and made to 3D cad specs then it's not going to matter that much of they send out a new fender or not. They will still have the inherent design flaw.

[gwarden]

I was able to mount the fenders at the rear bottom then pulled the passenger side towards the front and bolted it to the upper mount while pulling on it. Its not a perfect fit but not too bad

[Mechie3]

Copying from my build thread to see if I can't get some input here.

Side sails are mounted the same left to right relative to the frame at the front. Fenders are mounted to those (little triangle recess mates with the side sail, only fits one way). At the front the fender is mounted to the center insert with all the body lines lining up. Center insert is centered on the subframe. Once the hood is lined up at the front it fits like crap at the back unless I pull the passenger fender way out and push the driver fender way in. At the windshield the fenders were clamped and the distance from the edge of the windshield surround to the fender edge was the same. If I use the hood pins holes that were drilled previously for my old front end then the hood is 1" from even reaching the edge of the fender.

I've tried pulling and pushing on things but at this point all it's doing is putting stress on the fender/side sail junction. FFR told me that I just didn't have it centered (i've measured, it's centered on the frame....though, that might not mean much) and I just need to square it up.

Front looks nice
http://i.imgur.com/YyE3vnm.jpg

Rear looks....not so nice:
http://i.imgur.com/2uS0OgS.jpg

[ben1272]

Craig, I noticed that my adjusting got easier when I loosened pretty much ALL of the bolts holding the front brackets....this allowed up, down, in, out, and rotational tweaks of the fenders. I fought for a while, loosened these, and then it got easier. That said, I have not mounted mine yet, I was just doing a dry run.....but it looked promising. My radiator mount was swapped for a factory welded unit versus using the retrofit bolt on parts FFR supplied....dont know if this makes a difference. My kit is #352.

I can take pictures to show you what I have, if it would help.

-Ben

[Mechie3]

That pic with the hood was taken before things were bolted to the frame, I think. If I go too far left or right the subframe will hit the center. I'll have to swear it at...uh...work on it some more tonight. Some reference measurements or pics would be good.

[Frank818]

Holly damn crap WTF is that? That's way off. Even I was able to get things very acceptable in 1-2 shots. There will be some stress on the panels, but nothing that is overstress.

What's the height of the bottom front fenders wrt the 1.5" bottom frame tube right behind the wheels?

Your hood looks crooked to the left, the rear of the hood on the left side goes outside the windshield but on the right it's inside.

I think the front of your fenders is too much inside, you have no gap at all on the pictures but there should be some. I don't think you can squeeze the front of the fenders onto the nose insert, it's the other way around, stretching the nose insert to reach the fenders. How's your nose looking? I mean the one on the car, man.

[STiPWRD]

Craig, I followed the same method you did but let the hood fall into place at the end. I had to really push out the top back corners of the fenders to allow the hood to drop down. I'd ignore the old hood pin locations. I'm not completely finished with the gaps but close.
59069

[Mechie3]

@STiPWRD: My hood pin locations are definitely off. If I reuse the old holes (that worked with the original nose) then the hood is >2" too short.

@Frank818: The fenders and center insert are now spot on as best they can be relative to each other. I did have to shift each side over about 1/8" from where I had them before. The body lines all line up with the exception of one spot there the center insert doesn't have the right angle. I talked to FFR and they said "you need to loosen everything up and get it all centered" to which I replied that the fenders were spot on with the side sails and center insert (so front and rear datums were set), everything else is floating, and the center insert is centered on the frame. To that they said "everything needs to float and be loose. And that you can’t base everything off the center front of the subframe. It’s gonna be more to one side or the other until you find the center for everything. " So....centered, but not centered, until it's centered.

Hard to get good pictures with the available lighting, but here's the best I have.

Hood lines up with drop line on insert (as per manual):
http://i.imgur.com/hHLX7gG.jpg

This is the one spot of the insert that doesn't line up perfect. The angle of the triangular cross section on the bumper is different than the angle on the triangular section on the insert. The insert has a wider included angle. The driver side angle is different and matches the bumper. It's low enough no one will notice so I stopped caring.
http://i.imgur.com/tmu2FVn.jpg

Driver side. Good match along the upper portion:
http://i.imgur.com/ThXiy45.jpg

Lower portion pieces match very well too:
http://i.imgur.com/4jWWm9s.jpg

I wouldn't be so cynical about this if I wasn't an engineer (that used CAD/CNC/Mfg everyday) and for how much they touted their use of "the very latest technology to engineer new levels of performance" (quote from their website) and made a big deal of their "development partners Hewlett Packard and SolidWorks software" (from their youtube video caption).

3D CAD has been around since the late 1970's (it's not new). Solidworks has been around since 1993 (it's not new either). The whole point of CAD is better designs, easier updates and changes, better fitting parts, more complexity with less error, and smooth transition to manufacturing. Yet, it seems they took advantage of only part of that (and not the part that benefits the customer).

So far, most of the parts in the new front end have not fit well if held the standard of CAD designed parts, IMO. The side bumper supports (wings) can't go low enough as required in their manual (entire bracket and adjustment slots are 1" too short), the inner fender brackets don't fit in the cutout in the sheet metal if you put the brackets where FFR says to (why make a cutout for clearance if it's off by so much?). The side sheet metal is about 4" too tall for the fender (and that's with the fender being 1" too high because the side supports can't go low enough). Fenders aren't symmetric ( I've been told that the plugs and molds for the body were hand made). All of these issues (with pictures) are in my build thread.

Every new freshman mechanical engineer I know of took two classes their very first quater/semester: CAD and GDT. CAD: Everything is perfect. GDT: nothing is perfect, but here's how we make it work together anyways. Seems the GDT part got lost in favor of "let them fix it in the field". Sure, it's a kit car "build it how you want", and somethings are expected to require modifications, but there should be a limit. You could deliver a pile of raw material and say "it's a kit car, build it how you want" and technically not be wrong either. CAD means nothing if you can't manufacture parts to the form shown in CAD or if the parts don't fit together correctly in the CAD to begin with.

/soapbox. Don't mind me. Just needed to vent frustration with 30 minute tasks that end up taking weeks because "bolt up bracket A" translates to "cut bracket A in half, change spacing, reweld it so it fits, bolt up bracket".

[RM1SepEx]

Ouch, I had the same types of problems with my second set of body panels, You have to give up on even measurements and loosen, pull relocate etc to make it look good. Lose the tape measure and accept that the panels are NOT symmetrical as you would expect. Any yes like you the engineer in me struggled for hours that no matter what I did side to side I couldn't get it anywhere close to even.

[Frank818]

Craig did you need to pull, stretch and twist the insert? I had too, that's where I did the most compromise on bowing, twisting a panel.
Hood sits ok on fenders around windshield, now?

[Mechie3]

Craig did you need to pull, stretch and twist the insert? I had too, that's where I did the most compromise on bowing, twisting a panel.
Hood sits ok on fenders around windshield, now?

I attached the insert to the fenders with everything off the car. That way nothing was fighting me (except gravity and mismatches in those specific panels) and it was easier. Not so much twisting and pulling as needed more than 2 screws (used three per side plus 3 cleco clamps left on for a week) to pull the contours together. I couldn't make that one corner of the insert match because it is a three sided feature so is quite strong. All those pics above were taken at the same time the hood didn't fit.

I haven't had a chance to work on it since. Monday night I put my daughter to bed and fell asleep myself on her bed, woke up at 4am. Last night I had to box up some parts to ship and finish a CAD model for something else.