818 Traction Control

[sponaugle]

As some of you may have read in a few of my other threads, I have had good success with the Racelogic Traction Control system. (see http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10160-Racelogic-Traction-Control-for-the-818) It is a great addition to a car like the 818 that uses a factory ECU that doesn’t have built in traction control. Many of the aftermarket standalone ECUs have a built in traction control system, and of course most newer modern cars in the last 3-5 years have some form of traction control built in.

Unfortunately for us in the 818 community, Racelogic decided to discontinue their traction control system. They indicated it was decreasing in sales, and I suspect they had other business opportunities they wanted to pursue.

I think this is a gap that could be filled with an open source solution, thus my proposal. I have been working on a replacement system for a few weeks, and I’m looking for some help. I am looking for a few fellow engineers who would be interested in contributing. There are a lot of potential hardware choices for a project like this, and I chose to start with something I was familiar with. I am using an TI MSP432 as the core processor, as that is an easy to use, fast, and easy to develop processor. It is an ARM Cortex m4 based core with floating point, plus the typical TI MSP family hardware.

Fortunately TI makes a development test boards called the Launchpads (there are actually several different launchpads for different MCUs). They sell this particular board for $13, and that board includes a complete JTAG interface, flasher, and debugger. For my prototype development I put together a simple interface board that allows the Launchpad to piggyback while provide the interfaces, power management, etc.

I’m an Electrical Engineer turned software developer turned CTO, although my specialty was originally microprocessor design. I am fairly comfortable with the firmware development and the traction control algorithms. I could use some assistance with the analog interface designs, as well as some host configuration software. I could roll my own configuration software in .NET, but I would love to involve someone for whom this is their expertise. I built a previous prototype device using this same processor to serve as a data capture device (similar to the very well built Race Capture Pro).

I have no direct idea of what the final cost will be, but we are talking about hardware components that add up to less than $100, perhaps $150 with the PCBs and case. Obviously we will have a better idea as we get farther down the development path, but we are certainly not talking about a $1000 solution.

This will be completely open source, both hardware and software. While the prototype is a mix of thru hole and surface mount, the final version will be entirely surface mount of course.

It would require that the car have ABS wheel speed sensors installed, and at least for this prototype be either a 4 or 6 cylinder. It would not require ABS be installed, but would also not prohibit it. It is not unique to the 818, as it would work on any RWD or FWD car.

So, questions:

(1) Is this interesting to any one?
(2) Does it sound like something you could use?
(3) Any particular features? (obviously ‘working’ would be one!)
(4) Anyone able to help out?

Here is a picture of one of the prototype boards

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TC_Proto1.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TC_Proto2.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TC_Proto3.jpg

http://www.sponaugle.com/818/TC_Proto4.jpg

Jeff

[07FIREBLADE]

YES, YES, YES, YES... ok enough of that. I would love for someone to be able to take up the slack and develop something to fit into this vacuum that racelogic left us with. There is another forum member that I think you should work/colaborate with. If you search under scratch built traction control he has what seems to be very similar background as you. He has looking at parts being around $100 too. Only help I could offer is to of course be a beta tester and help with install/manufacturing a harness for add ons for customers since I work for Brian at iWire.

[07FIREBLADE]

YES, YES, YES, YES... ok enough of that. I would love for someone to be able to take up the slack and develop something to fit into this vacuum that racelogic left us with. There is another forum member that I think you should work/colaborate with. If you search under scratch built traction control he has what seems to be very similar background as you. He has looking at parts being around $100 too. Only help I could offer is to of course be a beta tester and help with install/manufacturing a harness for add ons for customers since I work for Brian at iWire.

Found the thread here you go. Hopefully you guys can come up with a solution and get everyone on board. I know I definetely need/want one for safety with my 818. Already had a few close calls and I would like to make it to my next birthday.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?19712-Scratch-built-traction-control&highlight=scratch+built

[Scargo]

My interest would be for my race only R. I believe traction control is prohibited in some racing classes. That might stop me, though I know it would be really nice to have and hopefully fully adjustable for racing.

[Hindsight]

Very cool Jeff!! Would be really nice if it supported both passive AND active wheel speed sensors since most all modern cars use active now.

I have a background in software but have been out of the coding side too long to be of any help. Wish that weren't the case though, because I'd really geek-out on something like this. I do know a real smart guy in Bend who does hardware and may be able to help. He used to work for Unichip has been doing hardware ever since. I'll reach out to him and try connecting the two of you. Is your gmail address still the same?

[STiPWRD]

Hey Jeff, I'm not much help on the software side but I can offer support on the electronic packaging or any cad support you may need. Let me know if you were planning on using an off the shelf case of if you were picturing something more custom. Sometimes considering thermal, vibration, humidity effects can be a big help with prolonging the long term reliability of the electronics.

[Pearldrummer7]

Jeff- I'm an automation engineer. I can and would love to help with this on the side. I'll have my R both on track and street legal this year so I can do some testing, too. I'll shoot you a PM and we can talk logistics.

[sponaugle]

YES, YES, YES, YES... ok enough of that. I would love for someone to be able to take up the slack and develop something to fit into this vacuum that racelogic left us with. There is another forum member that I think you should work/colaborate with. If you search under scratch built traction control he has what seems to be very similar background as you. He has looking at parts being around $100 too. Only help I could offer is to of course be a beta tester and help with install/manufacturing a harness for add ons for customers since I work for Brian at iWire.
Found the thread here you go. Hopefully you guys can come up with a solution and get everyone on board. I know I definetely need/want one for safety with my 818. Already had a few close calls and I would like to make it to my next birthday.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?19712-Scratch-built-traction-control&highlight=scratch+built

Thanks for digging up that thread. I'll take a look and contact the author.


My interest would be for my race only R. I believe traction control is prohibited in some racing classes. That might stop me, though I know it would be really nice to have and hopefully fully adjustable for racing.

Sure, that makes sense. As far as adjustability, I plan on doing something similar to the Racelogic unit did and allow a dial to adjust the amount of slip. I have also been considering adding an interface to get the steering wheel position (in cars that have that), as well as a 6 DOF sensor. With some acceleration data is would be possible to allow more or less slip in a dynamic fashion.


Very cool Jeff!! Would be really nice if it supported both passive AND active wheel speed sensors since most all modern cars use active now.
I have a background in software but have been out of the coding side too long to be of any help. Wish that weren't the case though, because I'd really geek-out on something like this. I do know a real smart guy in Bend who does hardware and may be able to help. He used to work for Unichip has been doing hardware ever since. I'll reach out to him and try connecting the two of you. Is your gmail address still the same?

Thanks! Best email is jeff@sponaugle.com. Good idea on the passive and active, as it wouldn't be hard to interface to either kind.


Hey Jeff, I'm not much help on the software side but I can offer support on the electronic packaging or any cad support you may need. Let me know if you were planning on using an off the shelf case of if you were picturing something more custom. Sometimes considering thermal, vibration, humidity effects can be a big help with prolonging the long term reliability of the electronics.

Thanks! I'll talk to you more as I get closer to the packaging part of the equation.


Jeff- I'm an automation engineer. I can and would love to help with this on the side. I'll have my R both on track and street legal this year so I can do some testing, too. I'll shoot you a PM and we can talk logistics.

Perfect. Looking forward to talking to you!

Jeff

[Loring]

I'd love to help, but this seems to be largely a software project, which is beyond the scope of my expertise. It sounds like you've got most of what you need, but if you require any assistance with ME/hard parts or integrating for mass market, let me know. :)

[Evan78]

Wow, this is fantastic to hear. My build partner and I were hoping to install RaceLogic after our 818 is complete and it was disappointing to see them discontinue the product. I am very interested as an end user, but don't have skills to contribute to development.

[Edgeman]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?19712-Scratch-built-traction-control
On the GTM forum Tanderson1 had plans on building a traction control like RaceLogic check out his post. He is the computer guy that you would need by the sounds of things.

[Aero STI]

Jeff, great idea. I love your ambition to take this stuff on. I'm spread too thin at the moment starting another business, but if you keep the project in plain view I would enjoy contributing when possible.

[Innkeepr]

I have been wrestling with this also - the guy who is building my stand alone system ( megasquirt ) says its no problem to add a traction control unit.

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ms3-pro-standalone-ecu-with-8-39-wiring-harness/

Am I missing something here ? do you need to wire a factory unit to this or is it a simple add on ?

[TouchStone]

Tanderson and I have done some initial planning toward this end. PM me.

[Hobby Racer]

... Am I missing something here ? do you need to wire a factory unit to this or is it a simple add on ?

The MS3Pro standalone unit your link references includes traction control in its firmware already. You do need to wire in speed sensors for it to work. The current version only requires two speed sensors. One for the front wheels and one for the rear wheels. It is not able to monitor all four wheels currently.

[sponaugle]

Tanderson and I have done some initial planning toward this end. PM me.

Thanks! PM Sent.

[carrera1984]

Man I would love to help, however my knowledge goes as far a creating a relay switching device via remote control with parts off amazon for a machine I own.

I'd be in to test, submit feedback, or buy one for sure.

This project sounds awesome! I understand its niche, but how is there not any current solution out there already?

Insurance could be a factor... may need to LLC/s corp if you start selling em for money.

[Hindsight]

This project sounds awesome! I understand its niche, but how is there not any current solution out there already?

There was for a long time but just last year the company stopped selling them so they could focus exclusively on their digital dash product which apparently has a better business model.

Not that many people care enough about traction to buy a $1200+ device and install it in their cars. Most would rather spend the money on bigger turbos and make 2000WHP, yet not be able to put it to the ground. Traction control isn't "sexy" but big HP numbers are. The fact that roll-racing has lately come into fashion is proof of this. Saw a license plate the other day that made me smile: "DIG ONLY".

You need to be able to support passive and active ABS wheel speed sensors which requires additional work. And there are different types of injector control (PWM etc) and also high vs low impedance injectors. And lastly, there is the issue of support. Race Logic told me that was a big factor in shuttering the business: the traction control system required a ton of support. Heck, I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to wiring and cars and even I have had to engage them for support because I'm unable to get mine working properly due to bad wheel speed signals which I have not yet resolved. An open-source setup with a forum would help with the support aspect.... think something like RomRaider.

[mattbyrne]

This sounds like a fun project. I may be able to help out on the software side of things. I've been doing .net development for 10+ years and before that I worked with embedded systems. Let's talk and we if can help you out.

[Blwalker105]

Hello Jeff,

As awesome as this idea sounds, how about a far less-expensive and less-complex alternative: boost-limitation based on gearing. How about a couple of micro switches at the shifter to limit the amount of boost in first and second gear. I'm planning for 25psi available at the engine and would like to be able to limit that to 16psi in first and second gears. After that, full boost applies. Is there any way to integrate that code into the Cobb software?

[Hindsight]

In an 818, I doubt you'll make 16 psi in first or second gear. They will go by too quick to build much boost.

[Evan78]

I haven't paid attention to open source Subaru tuning or AccessPort development for years, but it looks like some newer Subaru ECU's support gear-based boost. This thread on LegacyGT.com (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/per-gear-tuning-202958.html?t=20295) can be a starting point if you want more info.

[Blwalker105]

Good points. I'll probably be out of luck since my donor is an 03, but I appreciate the thread.

[sponaugle]

Tanderson and I have done some initial planning toward this end. PM me.

Update: I have been in contact with TouchStone, and we have combined our efforts. There is a google group setup for us to collaborate, and we have been going back and forth on different ideas and implementation details. I'll provide a more in depth technical description soon.


There was for a long time but just last year the company stopped selling them so they could focus exclusively on their digital dash product which apparently has a better business model.
Not that many people care enough about traction to buy a $1200+ device and install it in their cars. Most would rather spend the money on bigger turbos and make 2000WHP, yet not be able to put it to the ground. Traction control isn't "sexy" but big HP numbers are. The fact that roll-racing has lately come into fashion is proof of this. Saw a license plate the other day that made me smile: "DIG ONLY".
You need to be able to support passive and active ABS wheel speed sensors which requires additional work. And there are different types of injector control (PWM etc) and also high vs low impedance injectors. And lastly, there is the issue of support. Race Logic told me that was a big factor in shuttering the business: the traction control system required a ton of support. Heck, I'm not a complete idiot when it comes to wiring and cars and even I have had to engage them for support because I'm unable to get mine working properly due to bad wheel speed signals which I have not yet resolved. An open-source setup with a forum would help with the support aspect.... think something like RomRaider.

Agreed... it was a large support burden for Racelogic, although part of that was due to a *Very* weak dealer market in the US. Most of the dealers didn't have the technical chops to support it. There were also some interesting design choices made that made some config and support issues worse.

I am working with a design right now that will work with both passive and active sensor, although I suspect the passive sensors will be more common in the 818 platform due to most donor cars being Pre-08. For now we are just focusing on high impedance injectors, and single pulse control (common to many ECUs). The addition on PWM is something I have been working through, and certainly low impendance injectors could also be adapted. One thought has been to have the injector driver and ABS sensor interface as small plug in boards on top of the main board. That would allow greater customization.


Hello Jeff,

As awesome as this idea sounds, how about a far less-expensive and less-complex alternative: boost-limitation based on gearing. How about a couple of micro switches at the shifter to limit the amount of boost in first and second gear. I'm planning for 25psi available at the engine and would like to be able to limit that to 16psi in first and second gears. After that, full boost applies. Is there any way to integrate that code into the Cobb software?

As mentioned below, a number of the newer ECUs have boost by gear, and there are many aftermarket boost controllers that already do that. You don't need microswitches on the gear lever. You can determine gear from wheel speed and engine speed. While boost limits can help traction, they are in no way comparable to what a good traction system can do.


I haven't paid attention to open source Subaru tuning or AccessPort development for years, but it looks like some newer Subaru ECU's support gear-based boost. This thread on LegacyGT.com (http://legacygt.com/forums/showthread.php/per-gear-tuning-202958.html?t=20295) can be a starting point if you want more info.

Correct.. In fact the most recent release of the Cobb software extended the per gear comp to a bunch more platforms. As well, there are a number of aftermarket boost controllers that do per gear comp.

Cheers,

Jeff

[sponaugle]

This sounds like a fun project. I may be able to help out on the software side of things. I've been doing .net development for 10+ years and before that I worked with embedded systems. Let's talk and we if can help you out.

Thanks Matt. I'll send you a PM shortly.

Jeff

[Loring]

Potentially noteworthy:

Misfire detection on vehicles with factory TCS is disabled during a traction event. You might consider providing the PCM with some input that would accomplish same.

[sponaugle]

Potentially noteworthy:

Misfire detection on vehicles with factory TCS is disabled during a traction event. You might consider providing the PCM with some input that would accomplish same.

Misfire detection prevention is an interesting problem. In most cases if the factory ECU has no built in traction control it may be difficult the circumvention with a signal change. If it has a system it would depend on how it is integrated. If the ABS module were providing wheel speeds over CAN bus you could do some intercept modifications, but that would cause competing TC actions. In most cases even the race logic unit does not get detected. The key behind that is cylinder cut selection, which has a rotating component to it so in only the harshest situations are you misfiring the same cylinder twice in a row. On my GTO which has that system installed it did not detect the misfires in almost all cases except one test case where I had the wheels off the ground to simulate unlimited slip.

On some ECUs, including some of the Subaru ones, you can adjust the misfire detection threshold.

Jeff

[Aero STI]

Misfire detection prevention is an interesting problem. In most cases if the factory ECU has no built in traction control it may be difficult the circumvention with a signal change. If it has a system it would depend on how it is integrated. If the ABS module were providing wheel speeds over CAN bus you could do some intercept modifications, but that would cause competing TC actions. In most cases even the race logic unit does not get detected. The key behind that is cylinder cut selection, which has a rotating component to it so in only the harshest situations are you misfiring the same cylinder twice in a row. On my GTO which has that system installed it did not detect the misfires in almost all cases except one test case where I had the wheels off the ground to simulate unlimited slip.

On some ECUs, including some of the Subaru ones, you can adjust the misfire detection threshold.

Jeff

Good info, Jeff. My racelogic testing did not cause the Subaru ECU to see a misfire yet. Phatron is doing the tuning and was afraid that it might. He also suggested adjusting the misfire threshold as a possible solution, but so far so good.

[SixStar]

I'm currently working with iWire and AEM Electronics on switching the AEM 818R over to an Infinity 6 box with DBW and full traction control. I'm going old school for control and will be placing a knob on the dash ranging from OFF to ANY ONE CAN DRIVE THIS.

Should be a very effective solution.

[Samiam1017]

wayne has a haltech elite 1500 system that has traction control contact him

[TMScrogins]

I'm currently working with iWire and AEM Electronics on switching the AEM 818R over to an Infinity 6 box with DBW and full traction control. I'm going old school for control and will be placing a knob on the dash ranging from OFF to ANY ONE CAN DRIVE THIS.

Should be a very effective solution.

It is a VERY effective solution. I am running an AEM Infinity 8 box with DBW and full traction control on my E-85/flex fuel Coyote powered Mk4. I have a 12 position Pot switch just as you described for the traction control (OFF to Grandma mode and everything in between). The traction control is absolutely awesome. In fact, the abilities of this ECU are fantastic. I have been so happy since I have switched over. I have a thread on the other forum covering a lot about the Infinity ECU. You wouldn't be disappointed.

Trevor

[cragg56]

Whatever happened with this.

I'm on the hunt for at 818c. I currently have a racelogic setup out of my previous 6 cylinder setup, but looking for a aftermarket solution all in one. Is Wayne the go to on this?