Rob T's 818R Build Thread

[Rob T]

I just acquired Chad Plavan's 818R on 1/31/16. After his excellent work, and the advice from others on the forum, I am starting my own "build" thread. While the car is "built", I have a lot to learn, both mechanically and from a driving perspective. I plan to share my journey here and to learn from those who already well versed.

[Mitch Wright]

Welcome Rob to 818 community.

[Rob T]

Took the 818R to the autocross event with my local car club last weekend. This was my first real drive. I was learning a lot. I put some Sumitomo HTRII tires on it while I am learning (much cheaper to mess with than the Hoosier R comps Chad had on it - I'm saving those). The car is not really an autocross car, but it was a good place to learn the limits. Lots of power and good handling. Never got above 4000 rpm in 2nd gear, but had fun. I even spun it one time. Chad did a great job on the build. My best time was in the middle of the pack. About 44 seconds for the course set up. The fastest car was a modified Porsche Cayman set up for autocross with a really good driver - 40 seconds. I was quicker than a new Z06 vette and a GT500 Mustang. This car will be awesome on the track. I am working on getting the seat a little closer to the steering wheel and making the car "fit" me a little better.

[longislandwrx]

Nice, Chad did a great job on the build, but there is still much that can be done to truly make it your car. Unless he bought a new set, those slicks were pretty old already, if I were you I would use them, they're only going to get harder and less forgiving.

[FFRSpec72]

Nice, Chad did a great job on the build, but there is still much that can be done to truly make it your car. Unless he bought a new set, those slicks were pretty old already, if I were you I would use them, they're only going to get harder and less forgiving.

Agree, check the date on the tires, these will start to get hard and lees then optimal in performance, use them up when you can

[Mechie3]

Glad you made it on here with one of the most tested 818's out there.

[Rob T]

That's the plan. Use them soon. Chad only did one day at the track with them, so they are pretty good. I was thinking that the High Performance Summer street tires would be a little more forgiving and communicative at the limit while I learn the car. Much better to spin at 35mph than 100+. I am getting more familiar with the car all the time. Sounds, smells, etc. So far, I've added an expansion bottle to the AWIC system and calibrated the temp sensor for the inlet. Some work on the seat, traqdash and switches come this weekend to I can reach everything while strapped in. One more autocross at the beginning of April and then a trip to buttonwillow for an open traq day. I have the traqdash set up so I will be able to get some stats as I learn the car, change the tires, etc. Lots of fun so far.

[Rob T]

Had my first track day yesterday, April 22. The day was cool about 72F and pretty windy. The venue was Buttonwillow in the 14CW configuration. I was pretty nervous as there was a lot to take in. The car ran well as I was gaining confidence. Water temp was about 180. The AWIC intake was ambient +7F and the oil was about 150F. Oil pressure was 80 psi.

As I entered the pit after the first 20 minute session, I heard a metallic "clinking" from the rear end. Further investigation with some friendly, experienced racers at the track point to a problem with the left rear CV joint. When the car is in gear and you push roll it forward and backward, you can hear and feel the "clinking". The experienced guy who worked with me suggested I hang it up for the day as it was impossible to know how long this CV could last and there was no use grenading it. I was disappointed, but this is part of the game....

Now comes the question: What should I replace this part with? Are there any parts that would be better suited for track use? Has anybody had any luck with any other parts? What is the best source of said parts?

I am new to this game, excited to learn, and grateful for any suggestions.

Rob T

[Hindsight]

A number of people have blown up axles and components of axles on the 818. The most common part to fail is the FFR-provided axles. They snap clean in half right where the splines start. My bet is if you take the axle out and remove the CV, you'll find the CV is probably fine but the axle is in two pieces.

The best place to get strong axles is The Driveshaft Shop. They are not cheap but they can make you what you need and they will last. CVs will be stronger and so will axles. They rate them for like 500WHP and 750WHP so you'll have no issues. Cost is going to be somewhere around a grand for a set, if I recall correctly. There is a detailed thread here somewhere. Measure the length of the FFR provided axles (unbroken), and provide that to them, along with instructions that it's for a YYYY Subaru WRX and the INNER ends use FRONT-INNER CV joints, while the outer ends use REAR OUTER CV joints. They can then make you the custom setup you need.

[SixStar]

A number of people have blown up axles and components of axles on the 818. The most common part to fail is the FFR-provided axles. They snap clean in half right where the splines start. My bet is if you take the axle out and remove the CV, you'll find the CV is probably fine but the axle is in two pieces.

The best place to get strong axles is The Driveshaft Shop. They are not cheap but they can make you what you need and they will last. CVs will be stronger and so will axles. They rate them for like 500WHP and 750WHP so you'll have no issues. Cost is going to be somewhere around a grand for a set, if I recall correctly. There is a detailed thread here somewhere. Measure the length of the FFR provided axles (unbroken), and provide that to them, along with instructions that it's for a YYYY Subaru WRX and the INNER ends use FRONT-INNER CV joints, while the outer ends use REAR OUTER CV joints. They can then make you the custom setup you need.

I was told 800wtq on the ones I have, which is double what I'm making.

Measuring works great and is highly recommended, BUT if the car was built using the min track width FFR calls for you should be able to just call and tell them "I want what Six Star Cars ordered, twice" and they'll be right. Assuming you're using male stub shafts (which you should be) and haven't done anything crazy with the suspension.

[Rob T]

Thanks for the information. I am drinking from the firehose, but having fun. If I go the DSS route, is that a direct bolt in with the Legacy 5 speed and the 2009 WRX hubs or will other work be required?

Also, I'm pretty sure the axle is not broken. After I got off the track I heard a "tinking" sound when the driveline loaded and unloaded. After I stopped, I could create the same sound by pushing the car forward and backward in gear. You could feel a "pop" each time and in each direction.

The car is currently 285HP with 260ft-lb torque. I plan to track it and run some autocross, but mostly track. I do not plan on hard launches. If the axle is good and I just want to replace the outer CV's for now, are there better options than the factory CV's for the 2009 WRX? The DSS set up is an interesting option, as well.

[Rob T]

Today I spent some serious time on the axles. As I got the car from Chad already built, at least I can say "maintained, not serviced" even if I can't really say "built, not bought" yet. I jacked up the car and removed both the axles. Getting the pins out of the CV next to the transmission on the passenger side was a bit of a challenge. The driver's side came out with 4 taps. I spent two hours on the other side. To get the axle out, I had to completely dismantle the rear suspension, except for the shock mount. The first one took about 90 minutes. The second about 30 minutes after I remembered that I had some air tools ;-). I had to put everything together again an drop the car on its wheels so I could get accurate measurements for DSS who I will order new axles and CV's from on Monday. Chad always warned about "CV roulette" so I have the axles ready to send to DSS so they can match them exactly. The engine/trans were centered, perfectly, so that is good. Not sure why the outer CV failed, but as I moved it, it felt a bit "loose" and "dry". Might have thrown all the grease as there was a bit on the inside of the wheel. Anyway, it felt good to get into it today, and I learned a lot about my car. I am having fun, and that's what hobbies are about. Rob T.

[C.Plavan]

Thanks for the information. I am drinking from the firehose, but having fun. If I go the DSS route, is that a direct bolt in with the Legacy 5 speed and the 2009 WRX hubs or will other work be required?

Also, I'm pretty sure the axle is not broken. After I got off the track I heard a "tinking" sound when the driveline loaded and unloaded. After I stopped, I could create the same sound by pushing the car forward and backward in gear. You could feel a "pop" each time and in each direction.

The car is currently 285HP with 260ft-lb torque. I plan to track it and run some autocross, but mostly track. I do not plan on hard launches. If the axle is good and I just want to replace the outer CV's for now, are there better options than the factory CV's for the 2009 WRX? The DSS set up is an interesting option, as well.

FYI- you have 303 ft/pds of torque :)
http://i.imgur.com/MGz87Tsl.jpg

[Rob T]

It's been a few weeks, but I wanted to update everyone on the progress. I ordered axles from Tad at the Drive Shaft Shop. I got them in a couple of weeks, which was awesome. I did measure my car as SixStar had suggested, but also sent in the old axles just to be sure. Tad and the team at DSS were great to work with. I got the axles back Friday and installed them this Saturday. They fit perfectly. I disassembled the rear suspension, but left the hub/brake assembly hanging from the shock. After removing the brake line, this left enough room to rotate the hub out of the way and align the outside spline in the hub. Installed the inside first as aligning the roll pin is easier done with the wheel side free. The new axles look great. Put everything back together and bled the brakes. Ready to hit the track on June 10, if all goes as planned.

[taco20]

Hey do you any pics of the axles? What did DSS charge you for the axles?

[Rob T]

$899.99 Plus shipping. I did not think to take pictures but they were extremely well made. They came complete, ready to install, boots and all, so I never got a look at the CV's. Here is the information from the invoice.

Factory Five 818 Complete Rear Axle Set
Factory5 818 Kit Car
22-3/8" Tip/BB (Both sides)
2002-2007 WRX Rear Hubs
Non STi WRX Trans (Male Stubs)
1. Dimensions ----- 22-3/8" Tip/BB
2. outer CV's ----- D4371 WRX Outer CV's
3. inner CV's ----- 552 Series Housings with Machined
Female Splines
4. Bar length left ----- 19.75" 32/32 Spline Axle Bar
5. Bar length right ------ 19.75" 32/32 Spline Axle Bar

I got the lead on the forums, and had a discussion with SixStar. Tad at DSS is good to work with. This is what they do. It's great when you find someone passionate about what they are doing.

[Rob T]

Track Day at Buttonwillow on Saturday 9/10/16. Configuration 25CCW. Just learning heal/toe, so no driving comments, please. Running Hoosiers. Air temp was 100F. Oil temp was 205, AWIC 110 and water temp 195. Hit a max of 126 mph and 1.5g peak in the turns. Take a look at the "best lap" video. The car is amazing, and right now, far better than the driver.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L814vpY4uwY

[C.Plavan]

Smiles per miles is very high. :) . Keep getting that seat time. It takes awhile to get heel/toe down. It will come with practice. You are doing better than my buddy who has been racing for 5 years.

[Rob T]

Hi: Ran Buttonwillow open track day today. It was a prep day for POC, so there were a lot of amazing high dollar P-cars there along with some really good drivers. Had a really good day. Car ran well. We ran track setup #1 CCW with the A-section added. Lots of tricky stuff, but fun. Ambient air temp was 75-80. Oil Temp was in the 160-170 range with both front coolers blocked. Water temp was right at 160. I was seeing 89F after the AWIC cooler, so basically ambient +10F, which is great. Video and performance stats to follow after I have time to download all of that stuff. I did take a peek at the oil after the first session. Zero bubbles or foam. Pressure on the track when warm was about 80psi. 20-30 psi at idle when coming off the track. I did three session of about 7 - 8 laps. The Hoosier A7's seem to be holding up well. There are a few more days in them for sure. I would not say that I am as aggressive as I am going to be when my skills improve. Learning a lot. Fun level very high. 80F beats 100F any day, which was the temperature last time I was out in September.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi: Ran Buttonwillow open track day today. It was a prep day for POC, so there were a lot of amazing high dollar P-cars there along with some really good drivers. Had a really good day. Car ran well. We ran track setup #1 CCW with the A-section added. Lots of tricky stuff, but fun. Ambient air temp was 75-80. Oil Temp was in the 160-170 range with both front coolers blocked. Water temp was right at 160. I was seeing 89F after the AWIC cooler, so basically ambient +10F, which is great. Video and performance stats to follow after I have time to download all of that stuff. I did take a peek at the oil after the first session. Zero bubbles or foam. Pressure on the track when warm was about 80psi. 20-30 psi at idle when coming off the track. I did three session of about 7 - 8 laps. The Hoosier A7's seem to be holding up well. There are a few more days in them for sure. I would not say that I am as aggressive as I am going to be when my skills improve. Learning a lot. Fun level very high. 80F beats 100F any day, which was the temperature last time I was out in September.

Great to hear Rob,
All your numbers look great.
Do you know the temp rating of your thermostat?
My son, wife, and I waiting for a plane in vegas.
Bob

[Mitch Wright]

Sounds like a great day Rob. Looking forward to seeing your logs and video.

[Rob T]

Checked with Chad on the thermostat question from Bob. He thought a 170F. He changed from stock, for sure.

[Rob T]

Here is my best lap from Friday. Buttonwillow 1A CCW 2:23.683 Lots to learn still. Heel and toe is still poor(me learning). From the Traqmate GPS: Left 1.55G max, Right 1.82G max. Still had a lot of fun.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hamGIRHpa0

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Like ^^^^^^

[turbomacncheese]

1.82g? Sweet Jesus.

[Rob T]

Just to be fair, and honest, this was an instantaneous number. There are a lot of numbers in the 1.3 - 1.5 range left and right, and almost always 1G braking.

[Rob T]

60648

[Bob_n_Cincy]

60648

Hey rob,
Your g force circle look great.
The lateral force a mid corner at 1.4 to 1.6 is great.
The acieration is a nice straight along the bottom is probably mostly 3rd gear limit.
The top of the graph is braking. I think you can get more there as your confidence increases.
Take my comment with the thought that I am just learning also.
Bob

[Rob T]

If others have this capability as more cars get to the track it will be great to compare setups, etc.

[Rob T]

Hi: I am looking for some help. I was at Buttonwillow today for a track event. I started the car on the trailer and it ran for a few seconds. I had inadvertently left the car in gear and let out the clutch and killed it (I had wheels blocked). It did not restart. I towed the car to the track 9in the morning and it was between 32 and 35 degrees the whole way there. On the COBB unit, the battery voltage was right around 12V and pulled down to 10 or so when cranking. The car would not fire. We tried jumping with a running car and it would turn over (sort of a lopey turn over), but would not start. Chad suggested I might have blown a fuse, but I checked the one on the fuel pump and that one is good - I can hear the fuel pumping run and then stop. I brought the car home, charged the battery, and tried again. The voltage was 12.8 and pulled down to about 10V when cranking, but the car would not fire. There is a gas/fuel smell that makes me think it is flooding without firing. I am hoping the helpful group of experts on the forum can give me a few things to troubleshoot. I've killed a lot of stick shift cars before without breaking anything....The car has always started without issue although it usually runs rough until it gets warmed up. The last time I ran it before today was three week ago when I changed the oil. BTW...as the car is cranking, the oil pressure is coming up on the gauge. Thanks

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi: I am looking for some help. I was at Buttonwillow today for a track event. I started the car on the trailer and it ran for a few seconds. I had inadvertently left the car in gear and let out the clutch and killed it (I had wheels blocked). It did not restart. I towed the car to the track 9in the morning and it was between 32 and 35 degrees the whole way there. On the COBB unit, the battery voltage was right around 12V and pulled down to 10 or so when cranking. The car would not fire. We tried jumping with a running car and it would turn over (sort of a lopey turn over), but would not start. Chad suggested I might have blown a fuse, but I checked the one on the fuel pump and that one is good - I can hear the fuel pumping run and then stop. I brought the car home, charged the battery, and tried again. The voltage was 12.8 and pulled down to about 10V when cranking, but the car would not fire. There is a gas/fuel smell that makes me think it is flooding without firing. I am hoping the helpful group of experts on the forum can give me a few things to troubleshoot. I've killed a lot of stick shift cars before without breaking anything....The car has always started without issue although it usually runs rough until it gets warmed up. The last time I ran it before today was three week ago when I changed the oil. BTW...as the car is cranking, the oil pressure is coming up on the gauge. Thanks

Rob
When you let clutch it might have built up torque in the drive train, tires and straps.
then it stall ins spun the engine backwards. This might have caused the timing belt to jump a few teeth on the sprockets.
I would inspect the timing of the sprockets timing.
Make sure the anti jump guards and in place and adjusted properly.
61995

Bob

[Rob T]

Update: All fuses OK. Voltage from the battery to the frame is 13.2 V. Tried starting again. Cranked then got what sounded like a weak backfire out of the exhaust. Cranked some more and got one more "backfire". These were not loud bangs.

The engine was running (for a few seconds) when I stalled it letting out the clutch. After that, it did not run (has not run again). Would the engine run at all if the belt skipped a tooth? I found some other stuff online that says if you skip more than 2 or three, you get interference and things get bent. Would it matter what pulley slipped where? I am out of my depth here and there are lots of smart people on the forum. Pulling the cover for the timing belt looks like major surgery, at least a fair bit of coolant tubing will come of along with the associated mess. I read about some inspection ports, but could not identify them. Does anybody know about their existence?

Any other ideas? I'd like to start simple and move to complicated. I trust you guys....

Rob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Rob
Back fires means that you are getting gas and spark. still could be a timing problem.
If he engine didn't spin backwards, I doubt the timing skipped a tooth. But if it did spin backwards, it is possible.
Here is a sketch of what you will be looking for.


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=62001&d=1482110383

The red marks in the sketch above are what has to line up.
this is a real picture of an aligned crank.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=62002&d=1482111383

To get the timing cover off.
Remove alternator and dry sump belts.
Remove harmonic balancer from crank shaft.
Remove 3 piece timing belt cover.
Check with Chad, I think he changed the oil pump with the engine in the car.
Bob

[RDRP]

I am not sure if this may be a possibility but it might be worth checking. If any of the harness are support with little slack, it is possible when the clutch was released engine movement may have strained one of the connectors. I would inspect any connectors and wire that this could have happened to.

[Rob T]

Thanks, everybody for the things to look at.

[STiPWRD]

Rob, this exact thing happened to me - I down shifted when making a turn and the engine died. It would crank and fuel pump worked but it wouldn't start. In my case, it was one of those larger 30A (pink) fuses that provides power to the ECU and OBD2 connector; basically the engine didn't start because the ECU wasn't getting any power. Are you certain that the large fuses are all still intact? Can you connect via OBD2 and scan for codes? After I replaced that large fuse, everything worked fine.

JCASE 30A fuse
62041

[Rob T]

Thanks. I have different looking fuses, but I checked all of them yesterday for continuity with my multimeter. Besides looking good, they are all good. I was hoping it would be a fuse, but it appears they are OK. If somebody has a better way to check fuses, please let me know. I pulled the fuse and put my multimeter across the prongs - on continuity mode.

[turbomacncheese]

A lot of fuses have little tabs sticking out the top so you can check continuity without pulling them.

Can't really say it's a better way to test, them, but it is more convenient. Of course, not all fuses are like this, but I'm always surprised at how many people never noticed.

62043

[STiPWRD]

Thanks. I have different looking fuses, but I checked all of them yesterday for continuity with my multimeter. Besides looking good, they are all good. I was hoping it would be a fuse, but it appears they are OK. If somebody has a better way to check fuses, please let me know. I pulled the fuse and put my multimeter across the prongs - on continuity mode.
Did you verify that your ECU is receiving power? Are you able to connect to it via the OBD2 port?

[Rob T]

Thanks for the great tip. I saw the little tabs, but the fuses are really hard to get at (you know, upside down with my head between the fuel cell and the dash). I pulled them by feel and tested them "on the bench".

[Rob T]

The Cobb unit is plugged into the OBDII port at it is reading voltages, throttle position, etc. I assumed that means the ECU is powered. Is that an accurate assumption?

[STiPWRD]

Yes, that's correct. Since the ECU is functioning but the engine still won't start then it's getting a reading from a sensor it doesn't like and will not create spark (or you don't have any compression). If the timing belt did skip, it could have bent a valve and you would have lost compression - you could try doing a compression test. On the other hand, if the ECU is picking up a bad signal, it may prevent the engine from starting. Try looking at the OBD telemetry to see if anything looks out of place. For instance, if your engine coolant temp sensor is malfunctioning, the ECU will not let the engine fire (this happened to me, which I found out was a break in the wiring). Try verifying some of the other sensors are working properly (crank pos, cam pos, etc...).

[Rob T]

Thanks...

[Rob T]

Update on the engine not running....just to catch everyone up....I started the car on the trailer with the wheels blocked with 2X4's. Thought the car was in neutral and let out the clutch. Car was not in neutral, but not at high revs. Car killed. Would not re-startstart. Took the car in Saturday as I am not a motor guy yet and I wanted to get it diagnosed. Timing belt skipped 4 teeth and at least there is some damage as there is 80% leak down on two cylinders. Until the autopsy, we will not know if there is damage to the pistons or anything else yet, but there is at least some valve damage. Bad news. As the tear down continues, I will provide updates. When Chad built the car, he put on a new Gates racing timing belt, etc. This seems crazy that this could happen, but it did. More to come....

[Hindsight]

Oh man, sorry that happened! Hope the damage is minimal.

[Zach34]

Ugh, that's a bummer.

Is this a common thing with these engines? I know I've done the pop-the-clutch-thinking-it-was-in-neutral on my daily driver a bunch of times. I figure a lot of people have. Bob mentioned some sort of anti-jump guard. Any way to check if those are not there, or something?

[Frank818]

Oh no, what a bad news. :( I hope everything gets fixed without too much trouble.

[Rob T]

Thanks. I've stalled it before, too, with no issues. The only difference this time was I had the wheels chocked with a 2X4 both behind and in front of the driver's side rear tire. Another possibility, now that the car was in gear and I didn't know it, was that I trailered it to the track in gear. I use good tie downs and the straps are tight so the car does not move, much. As for what really happened, hopefully, more will become evident as the autopsy proceeds.....

[C.Plavan]

Like we discussed, you (we) get to see if the AJW block has everything in it that I was promised and paid for. Still sucks though. Maybe it did run backwards for a sec.

Double check all this is in there. This is what I paid for.

AJW Special 2.5L
2013 STI Shortblock
Balanced/Printed
JE Forged Pistons
STI Nitrated Crank
OEM Bearings
ARP Headbolts
Gates Timing Belt Kit
STI Heads (Single AUCS)
Port/Polish
Upgraded 272 Cams
OEM Head gaskets
Torque Solutions Air Pump Delete
Cobb V3 Accessport
Cobb SF Short Ram intake

[FFRSpec72]

Thanks. I've stalled it before, too, with no issues. The only difference this time was I had the wheels chocked with a 2X4 both behind and in front of the driver's side rear tire. Another possibility, now that the car was in gear and I didn't know it, was that I trailered it to the track in gear. I use good tie downs and the straps are tight so the car does not move, much. As for what really happened, hopefully, more will become evident as the autopsy proceeds.....

Anything happen to any of the idler pulleys or the timing belt guide ?

[C.Plavan]

Anything happen to any of the idler pulleys or the timing belt guide ?

Everything was new as of last January. I'm curious also. I replaced all pulleys, tensioner, and belt after finding that AJW gave me a used/rusted water pump and what looked like a used timing belt. This is when I installed the new 10mm oil pump that fixed the oil overheating problem.

[Rob T]

Thanks, Chad. When I know the answers I will share them. I am sure nobody wants this to happen to them. Rob

[Rob T]

OK...Here is an update with Pictures. Bad News. As a quick reminder. Three weeks prior to the incident, I drained the oil from the separator tank (dry sump) using the plug on the bottom of the tank and added about 5 quarts of Mobil 1 15W 50. I did not change the filter or disconnect any other hoses. I started the car and ran it for 10 minutes or so to warm things up. Pressure came up immediately. Ran the full range of RPM's, in neutral, with the clutch out, sitting in the drive way. Put the car on the trailer. The day of the incident, I trailered the car for 1:15 at about 34F. I started the car on the trailer -clutch in. At about 10 seconds, I let out the clutch thinking the car was in neutral. It wasn't. In addition, the back driver's side wheel was chocked front and back with 2X4's. The car killed. I think I heard a bang. Tried to restart the car and it was lopey - it sounded different and would not run.

I didn't have the time, equipment or skill to pull the motor (yet), so took it to the shop. Here is what he said.

[I][I]It was not a best case scenario for your motor. Something caused the right intake camshaft to seize. It snapped off the drive pin on the cam in the cam gear. So basically, the crank was spinning 3 of the 4 camshafts. There are bent valves in 2 cylinders as expected based on the leakdown test. The issue is determining what caused the cam to seize and if the damage to the head casting and the cam are repairable now.


From the looks of the other cam journals, it looks like there was foreign object contamination/oil starvation present. If that was bad enough to make something as lightly loaded as a camshaft to seize then I have some serious concerns about the condition of the rod and main bearings in the shortblock. I'm going to have my machinist evaluate the heads and cams but I would think it prudent to at least split the case halves and check the condition of the main and rod bearings and service as needed.

I know that when the car started its last time the oil pressure came up...I also know that I spent many minutes cranking the engine (not all at once) hoping it would run. Also, I'd see the oil pressure come up when the engine was cranking.

So this is a bit of a mystery. I need some suggestions about what might have gone wrong so it doesn't happen again. Here is what is happening next. Keep in mind that this motor has many hours on it. I have run 12+ 20 minute sessions myself, not to mention whatever Chad had done.

1) cutting the filter to look for any foreign materials.
2) Looking at the bottom end for any clues.
3) Looking at the other cam shafts.

We just can't figure out what caused the cam to seize and then cause the damage to the journal. If I dead stopped the crank by letting out the clutch on a chocked car, could the cams, or this cam have kept rotating and broken the pin?

I am looking to this experienced group for some insight. The engine builder(builds serious race motors in LA) has only seen this kind of damage from a total oil failure OR when the bearing caps are not aligned/torqued properly - which usually results in early engine seizure. This is a mystery.

Here are the pics.....

[Rob T]

6283162832628336283462835

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Rob,
This doesn't sound or look good.

Were the belt guards in place? See post 31 in this thread.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?20242-Rob-T-s-818R-Build-Thread&p=260746&viewfull=1#post260746

I wonder if the cam damage happened when the pistons hit the valves.
Maybe one of the Subaru motor experts will jump on here.
Bob

[Zach34]

So, if I follow, popping the clutch with the wheels chocked stopped the engine violently enough to cause the timing belt to skip on one of the cam shafts (probably on whichever cylinder happened to be firing) which caused the valves to impact the piston, bending the valves, binding the cam, and snapping the pin on the cam drive gear. Is that what we're concluding?

You said there was evidence of oil starvation/FOD on the OTHER cam journals, too? Before we go gathering our pitchforks, remember that Chad had several track sessions where the oil temperature spiked while he was troubleshooting the DS. We also now know, since he later found out and shared with us, the oil was probably aerated and foamy during these temperature spikes. That's probably the most likely source of the galling. Chad knows what he's doing and I'm certain he was lifting and shutting it down to avoid any damage as best he could, but sometimes you just don't know until the autopsy.

[Rob T]

I have no way of knowing whether or not there was previous damage from before. I do know that I drove a 13 session autocross day and 4 half day open track sessions with no obvious issues. The galling could have happened before or right during failure. There is no way to know.

Chad and I have been talking through this whole thing and are friends. He has been a great help to me. I am interested in figuring out what exactly caused the issue to make sure whatever it was, if it is more than me dropping the clutch on a chocked wheel, is fixed so that I do not kill another motor. The autopsy is not done yet. I have shared what I know so far.

I am grateful for any help or suggestions. Rob

[Scargo]

Who tore down the engine? Did they find it difficult to remove the cam pulley bolts? It takes two people, cheater bars etc. to tighten~untighten them. I just tore down a "built" motor where I found bolts under-tightened, over-tightened and a lack of Loctite having being used. Timing belt guides were gapped way too wide. An idler pulley was loose...

When I got to the cam pulley bolts they were not a be-atch, like they should have been. We fairly easily broke them loose! If you combine under-torquing and that violent crank/clutch seizure it could have caused the locating pin to snap. The other wear and galling is probably unrelated.

Before I bought the right tools and knew what I was doing I listened to an idiot suggesting that you could use vice-grips on the cam and hold the cam while you tightened the cam pulley bolt. I did that on my first motor build. When I tore it down I found two of the pins sheared. However, the pulleys did not spin.

I not accusing anyone of doing anything wrong; just a thought. I just finished helping a buddy build a Subie XT motor and I brought him a DAVCS gasket set I had. We were not too much further along in the build when the head gaskets became a question when the cam seals were not correct for his motor. We had to pull the heads and put the right gaskets on it. My dumb assumption. They were missing one little hole.
Also, when you go back together use these Turn-in Concepts FU bolts (http://turninconcepts.com/tic-fu-cam-bolt-kit-non-avcs.html)! (http://turninconcepts.com/engine/tic-fu-cam-bolt-builder-pack-non-avcs.html) Link and image is of non-AVCS bolts. Others, for AVCS have holes in them. Available from a few sources.
62836

[C.Plavan]

Yeah- this is a head scratcher.
1. Only one cam shows galling, all the others are fine (Edit- waiting on confirmation)
2. I would like to see the pistons on that side
3. I remember AJW saying there was an issue with the used heads prior, but that they fixed it- wondering if that was it and it's unrelated- remember the used, rusty water pump they installed.
4. The shop that has the motor is the place I wish I knew about when building the motor. They are top notch and run very fast time attack WRX's

So let's see what Yimisport finds in there. My gut tells me AJW just tried polishing the galling, and it is unrelated to the cam pin break since other journals are fine.

[Scargo]

Yeah- this is a head scratcher.
1. Only one cam shows galling, all the others are fine (Edit- waiting on confirmation) ... My gut tells me AJW just tried polishing the galling, and it is unrelated to the cam pin break since other journals are fine.Another item sometimes overlooked is the fine screen basket inside the banjo bolts. If they are clogged or get clogged the you are screwed for oiling of the cams. Some take them out entirely. If they exist then they should be examined for fouling. They and their cleaning could have been easily missed.

[Rob T]

It's been a long time....but time for an update. First the good news. I heard the car running doing a break-in on the dyno yesterday. YimiSport has had the car and has been rebuilding the engine. (I'm too busy with my current job to take this on). There was some significant scoring in the engine and some loose metal, but the bearings never spun. Best theory at this point is that a piece of metal got loose and jammed one of the intake cams right after I started the car. It basically twisted off the cam pulley and allowed interference, and the engine to be completely out of time. We'll never know exactly. There was also some scoring on the crank. So....the engine is basically new: cams, bearings, crank, pistons, valves, heads. We kept the crankcase and the connecting rods. New oil cooler core, flushed lines, rebuilt dry sump pump, and eliminated the two front oil coolers (never got oil to temp even at 104 ambient). Engine is being broken in on the dyno and then tuned. I have asked for two tunes - about a 280hp as Chad had it, and a 325 - 350 (safe, for when I get better). Hopefully tuned next week and I can pick it up. Hearing the car made me realize how much I've missed being out there on the track. When I get it home, I'll need to go through the whole thing, bleed the brakes and get ready to drive.

[longislandwrx]

Glad you are back at it.

In the long run you dealt with the inevitable sooner rather than later. I'm surprised this engine lasted as long as it did. Have fun out there.


If the coolers are salvageable let me know if you decide to sell.

[Rob T]

I'm closer now....I'm going to leave the coolers in for a bit. I know they add weight, but with the three tunes, if and when I get to the higher HP, I may need some additional cooler. I spoke to Paul (the tuner) at Yimisport yesterday. He said the engine is running strong and making better power than before. He said that he did several 60% dyno pulls during engine break-in and that cooling looks really good. Water temps were 190-200 and oil temp was great with just the back cooler and no airflow other than the fan. I am hoping to pick it up Saturday after he gets the tunes done. Hopefully a track day in September.

[Mitch Wright]

Great news Rob, it sounds it going to be a great runner.

[Rob T]

Paul at Yimisport completed the tunes yesterday. Three different versions. A 17psi, a 19.5psi and a 22psi. He tuned them for 91 octane, but recommends a little 100 octane if I run the top two at the track. I am picking up the car Saturday. I can't wait. There was an issue with a steady tach reading, so there are two graphs. One has mph on the x axis (4th gear) and the other has rpm, like normal to show the torque. I am going to start on the 17psi tune and really learn this car first....7298172982

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hey Rob
Great to hear your getting the car back.
Your dyno curves are much different than Chad's.
I believe Chad had a very flat HP curve so he could run in a particular class.
Here is a copy of that chart so you can overlay yours.
Bob

72983

[Rob T]

Bob: Thanks. You are correct. Chad was programmed to maximize for ST2. As of right now, I do not have any plans to run in a particular class. Just run and get better with the car. I have a lot to learn and will do open track days to improve my skills while learning the car. The plan is to stay at the lower power level for a while. It was simple to add the other, higher power tunes, while the car was at Yimisport.

[Mitch Wright]

Rob it looks to me like you will be having some fun, the engine looks strong. I am doing the same thing limiting my boost to 18psi, the car is still fast.

[Frank818]

You've got a lot more power sooner in the power band, compared to what Chad had.

[DanielsDM]

Dyno #'s look good Rob. Should be fast. You would have to detune to stay in ST2 or TT2 if you go there eventually.
BTW, Nasa has changed the way they calculate HP for ST + PT classes since the car was built. Now they take the average HP over a 2000 rpm range instead of the peak number. Reduces the benefit of having a tune like Chad did.

[Rob T]

Frank: I looked at the charts and had not compared the rpm ranges where the torque comes up. You are right....peak torque comes on about 1000rpm sooner. This is good. I will also being limiting the revs on the top end. May mean shifting a little more, but better in the long run....I guess it will depend on the track.

[Mitch Wright]

Rob you might also be shifting less, with a fat torque curve may allow you to run a gear up compared to your original engine.

[longislandwrx]

Rob it looks to me like you will be having some fun, the engine looks strong. I am doing the same thing limiting my boost to 18psi, the car is still fast.

you guys are funny. I run 16psi in my DD wrx and it's a fast car. 18psi in an 818 is going to rip.

[Frank818]

18psi in an 818 is going to rip.

Now you tell us? loll

[Rob T]

Picked up my car today. Sounds awesome. Next track day planned for October 6. Need to go through everything and bleed the brakes. Also need to reinstall the bottom pan. I can't wait to get back out.

[C.Plavan]

Picked up my car today. Sounds awesome. Next track day planned for October 6. Need to go through everything and bleed the brakes. Also need to reinstall the bottom pan. I can't wait to get back out.

It would be a great idea to do a complete nut/bolt check on everything. You don't know what they touched or did not touch the 8 months they had it. I don't know if they will remember what they touched. Pay special attention to the Drysump parts and engine related items.

Other than that- have fun!

[Rob T]

Good Advice. It's run a couple hours on the dyno, but I already found some loose trim bolts. I'll be going through it tomorrow.

[Rob T]

A few developments.....First track day is Friday on the new motor. I am pretty excited to get back out. I have been through the car a few times to double check everything. Second, Sgt. Gator stopped by on his way back to Oregon after picking up Brando's car in LA. For a short time, we had two R's within 100ft of each other, both on trailers. It was great to meet Sgt. Gator in person and put a face with a name.

[RetroRacing]

Please keep us informed! Retro and Dragonfly are both planning to be at the enduro in Portland on the 14th IF I can get an engine that works! Gator is on our pit crew! Can't wait to see his new toy.

[Sgt.Gator]

It was great meeting you Rob! Good luck with the new engine, rock the track!

[Rob T]

TRACK DAY UPDATE: Buttonwilow #25 CCW. It is a VARA race weekend, so lots of cool cars to see. Sunny, light wind, 80 - 85. I did the afternoon session. 3X's on the track. It's been 11 months since I have been out and this was the first time out on the "new" motor. 320HP, 300ft-lb tune with speed density. WOW...the car was amazing. Engine is smooth and the acceleration is fantastic. I was not pushing too hard yet. The sessions were 30 minutes, on the hour. First session: Oil 190F, Awic 102F, Water 190 F, Average Heart rate 131 (a bit nervous - peaked at 151). Oil pressure was 85+ and rock steady - even through the long left hand sweeper. 45 psi when idling/hot. Second session: Oil 215F, Awic 106F, Water 190F, Average heart rate 129 (getting more relaxed - peaked at 144). Oil pressures about the same. Third session - I was pushing harder and it was warmer: Oil 240F, Awic 108, Water 210, Average heart rate 122 (more in the groove - peaked at 137). I will post data/video later. 240F on the oil is at the limit for me. A cool down lap brought the oil back to 200 and the Water back to 190. I was running a single oil cooler in the back, with air intakes from the side scoops. I am planning on re-establishing at least one of the front coolers, especially for when it is 100F here. I know the car is running more boost than before, so the AWIC temps are not surprising. I used to get ambient +10F. Now it looks like ambient +20F.

I also used an IR to get tire temps before its battery went dead. I am running Hoosiers. On the second session: LF 121F, RF 115F, LR 123F, RR 127F 28psi when I started the session.

I still have a lot to learn as a driver, but it was a good day.

[Sgt.Gator]

Great report Rob. I'm glad to hear your car is running so well.
A little surprising on the oil temp. After looking at your car last weekend I thought your oil cooler setup was pretty slick. Before you run oil lines to the front and add a cooler I would try two things.

A) Block off one of the two air scoops feeding the common plenum for the cooler. When there is more than one intake feeding a common plenum you can actually lose pressure out the other intake unless they are balanced perfectly.
B) Add a fan inside the plenum to force air thru the cooler even when there's not enough speed to pressurize the air by the scoop alone. Mount it directly on top of the cooler, like a radiator fan. Be sure you get a pusher or puller style depending on which side of the cooler you mount it!
Edit: Now that I look at the pics I took, is there already a fan on the cooler? Is it working correctly?

And when reading your tire temps try to get three readings per tire, in the middle and about an inch inside each sidewall, that will tell you a lot more about your setup. The IR reader is ok for occasional use, when/if you get more serious a real temp probe with a needle you stick in the tire will be much more accurate. But for now the IR reader will work fine.

[Rob T]

Gator: Thanks for the pointers. There are puller fans on the back side of the oil cooler. I don't know if they were running or not. They were not when I got back there, but by then the oil was "cooler". I am not sure what the thermostat temp is for the fans to run. I need to do a little bit more investigation. I will also take a look to see how the plenum is set up on the intake. Right now, the "dryer hose" is just mounted in the scoop and a lot of air can bypass it to the rear wheels. I was thinking a little larger scoop might improve the flow. The other thing I was thinking of was doing a three way valve arrangement in the oil lines so that, based on conditions, I could route the oil to the forward coolers or not. My challenge is going to be many available track days when the ambient temp is 100 - 105.

Certainly a few things to work out, but running well. Rob

[Mitch Wright]

Sounds like a fun day Rob, congrats.

[Wayne Presley]

Rob, I had to go bigger on the radiator to keep the water temps in check. You should be running 27-28 psi HOT tire temps with the Hoosier A7's. start with 24 cold. you need a tire temp gauge that has the pointy tip, much better readings than an IR. You need to check the tire temps in the outside edge 1" from the tread edge, the very middle of the tire and 1" from the inside edge.

[Rob T]

Thanks, Wayne. I was ending up about 31 Hot and the letting some are out back to 28 before the next series.

Who has a found a tire temperature gauge (with the tiny point) that they really like?

[Mitch Wright]

http://www.longacreracing.com/products.aspx?itemid=1721 I have had a Standard Memory Pyrometer for years but really the Accutech gauge does a great job.
https://www.summitracing.com/search/Part-Type/Pyrometers/

Rob have you thought about adding a water-oil cooler in addition to the air to oil you have? Would eliminate a lot of the plumbing and they are nice and compact. Here are some examples https://www.summitracing.com/search?SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=Water%20to%20oil%20coolers
Anyway there are a number of options, I think Bob is using a marine heat exchanger.

[Frank818]

Ah man I'm happy it finally worked!!! Keep it on going! And smoke all those cars! Only you can finish 1st!

[Rob T]

75032

[Rob T]

75032

Best Lap From Friday. Buttonwillow 25 CCW. About 4 seconds faster than the last time I was there. Still learning and a lot more in the car.

[Wayne Presley]

Can you send me your Traqmate files so I can see what you are doing? wayne.verycoolparts@gmail.com

[Rob T]

Here is a video of the best lap.

https://youtu.be/uXFGev-D11E

https://youtu.be/uXFGev-D11E

[Hindsight]

Awesome Rob - glad you are getting it dialed in.

[Rob T]

Spent the weekend cleaning up the front oil cooling circuit: 12 AN line, and a cooler ducted in two intakes in the front. After the engine rebuild, I went with just the back cooler. Oil got to 240+ at 6/10 driving, so I am going to bypass the rear cooler and hook up the front two. They should get better airflow and can be taped off depending on temperature conditions. They have not been used since the engine died. I used compressed air to backflow the oil out of the lines. No Metal....whew? The lines have been "washed" using hot water and some Dawn. They have been dried with compressed air. I will keep drying them for a while, but there is no water flowing out like when I started. I am doing 1-minute blasts at about 100 psi, until my compressor is bled down. Probably did 30+ cycles today.

Now for the question. Does anybody have a good idea how to pre-charge the lines and the coolers with oil? I used a little HF pump to circulate the soapy water (worked awesome), but they are not for oil. Pressure? Vacuum? I'd like to get them mostly full before I connect them to the dry sump circuit so I don't starve the system for oil. I'd also like to be doubly sure all the water is gone. I have an adapter fitting to go 1/2NPT to the 12AN fitting. From that, I can do just about anything. Ideas? Thanks,

[Scargo]

I'd probably feel OK with what you've done if you have a filter before oil goes into the engine. A buddy just lost a second engine because he forgot to replace or even attempt to clean his oil cooler. I have my cooler after the filter but in this instance a filter last might be wise.
I have been using air pressure to push Torco out of its five gallon can. A fitting in the lid or a continuous hose to the bottom of the container and then a small hole for blowing in air is all it takes. That and pretty low air pressure. I also use an old pressure cooker and vacuum/pressure for similar tasks such as refilling shocks.

[Rob T]

Thanks. I was thinking about modifying a garden sprayer. Any down-sides? I'd start with a new one. I like the idea of it being re-fillable and the hose with a shut-off.

[Scargo]

Thanks. I was thinking about modifying a garden sprayer. Any down-sides? I'd start with a new one. I like the idea of it being re-fillable and the hose with a shut-off.
Should handle motor oil. Only thing I can think of is that it might be rather small ID'd for oil's viscosity and might aerate the oil if not plumbed well. I'm sure you can deal with that and possible upgrade to a different valve/other tubing.

[DanielsDM]

Now for the question. Does anybody have a good idea how to pre-charge the lines and the coolers with oil? I used a little HF pump to circulate the soapy water (worked awesome), but they are not for oil. Pressure? Vacuum? I'd like to get them mostly full before I connect them to the dry sump circuit so I don't starve the system for oil. I'd also like to be doubly sure all the water is gone. I have an adapter fitting to go 1/2NPT to the 12AN fitting. From that, I can do just about anything. Ideas? Thanks,

Which side of the scavenge pump is the oil cooler on? If it is on the pressure side you can disconnect an inlet hose, drop it in an oil jug, pull the belt off and turn the pump by hand to push oil through.

[Wayne Presley]

Which side of the scavenge pump is the oil cooler on? If it is on the pressure side you can disconnect an inlet hose, drop it in an oil jug, pull the belt off and turn the pump by hand to push oil through.

The pressure pump is still the OEM crank driven pump so that won't work

[C.Plavan]

Since the motor did not have a catastrophic failure while running, you should be fine with the cleaning you did. Hopefully, Yimi replaced the the OEM "Oil Cooler" that the oil filter spins on. When we had motors that really blow up, we send the oil coolers to aviation shops to have them ultrasonically cleaned. That was with expensive Porsche oil coolers- Might be cheaper to buy a new Setrab in that case- But I really think the coolers are ok since the car let go while cranking the motor on the trailer and not running at speed.

[DanielsDM]

The pressure pump is still the OEM crank driven pump so that won't work

I know his system uses the internal pump for pressure, but where are the coolers in the layout? If I remember correctly they are between the scavenge pump and the reservoir, or were, Chad was changing things up trying to chase down the oil temp issue.

[C.Plavan]

The coolers are in the correct loop. Keep in mind that with the old motor, and all the coolers hooked up, it was a struggle to get the oil temps to 180 degrees after the fix. Now the new motor is creating alot more power (heat) than what I had.

1. I would just hook them all up and go from there. All the oil lines are there and would connect easily. Don't forget to account for the extra lines and coolers when adding oil. Make sure to check level after it gets to operating temp.
2. The thermostat switch for the rear cooler fans is near the top of tank- They come on at 180 degrees. You can easily test with a heat gun and ignition on to make sure fans are coming on.
3. The oil temp sender is near the bottom of the oil tank.

[Rob T]

I verified the back coolers yesterday. They come on at 180. I was able to get to 180 idling/revving in the garage.

[Rob T]

I did a bunch of work on the oil system this weekend. After a lot of talking with a number of people, I decided to take a stepwise approach. When I got the car back from Yimisport, the dry sump was plumbed as follows: 2 Scavenge lines to the discharge of the pump to the bottom of the Spintric. From the Spintric, the liquid exit went to the rear Setrab 16X6 oil cooler mounted in the back of the car. This unit has two Spal fans rated at 342cfm and thermostatically controlled at 180F. The exit of the cooler went to the oil tank. Remember, I am using a gravity feed to the OEM oil pump in the car. Pressure is rock steady, always. In this configuration, I got to 240F oil temp my last session at about 7/10 driving with an 85F ambient air temp.

I talked to John at Aviaid, who built the pump. Each of the two scavenge elements is rated for 16gpm. The combined discharge can go as high as 275psi, if restricted (will not be possible with my set up). John said that with a scavenge system, 80% of what is pumped can be air. I then talked to Marv Beals at Setrab. He said that the oil cooler would not have an issue with the air and they did not get air bound like a pressurized radiator system. He suggested trying the spintric after cooler. He also said it did not matter which side of the cooler was supply or return

So today, I re-piped everything. Now the two scavenge pumps combine and discharge to the inlet of the Setrab oil cooler on the side with the thermostat. From the discharge side of the cooler, the oil/air goes to the inlet of the spintric. Both the liquid line and the air line from the spintric go to the tank.

I ran the car on the trailer and I can say that it appears to take longer for the oil to heat and I was not able to get it as hot as I did before I made the change (both tests run on the trailer). Today, the fans came on and were doing a great job of removing heat from the oil. Obviously, I won't know the full score until I get back to the track, but I don't see how it will hurt having 100% of the oil (with some air) go through the cooler. My working theory at this point is that the spintric may have been bypassing a significant amount of oil to the tank through the air line and effectively bypassing the cooler. I know that the cooler was hot before, but not how efficiently it was running. So some oil was getting to the cooler. Now, everything is going to the cooler.

If this new set up does not provide adequate cooling, it will be a simple matter to add back in the front coolers. The are clean, dry, plugged and lashed down pending the next step.

I also built my first braided AN 12 line today. A hot rod friend of mine told me about a fitting that is made by Koul Tools. You clamp the nut in it and twist in the braided line. Practically magic. No stuck fingers. No hassles. They sell kits with all the different sizes. Awesome.

[RetroRacing]

I was told to run nothing between the scavenge lines and the tank. We run pressure through the cooler to the engine. Would rather run it tank, cooler, filter, pump, engine, scavenge, tank, etc. rather than tank, pump, filter, cooler, engine, scavenge, tank.

Thoughts?

[Sgt.Gator]

Jeff, I think the usual is Pan>Scavenge Lines> DS Pump> Cooler > DS Tank > gravity feed line from Tank to OEM Pump > then either thru the OEM Cooler/Heater or use a sandwich plate to an additional cooler, or just the filter > Engine, back to pan and repeat. I believe part of the reason for the cooler between the DS pump and the tank is to cool the oil before it hits the tank so the air will come out of the oil better. Hot oil entrains the air more than cooler oil.
See: https://www.drysump.com/index.php/technical-info/technical-explanation-of-a-dry-sump-system "The remaining stages "scavenge" the oil out of the dry sump pan and return the oil (and air) to the top of the tank or reservoir. If an oil cooler is used usually it is mounted inline between the scavenge outlets and the tank."

DS LS system diagram from ARE, not a Subaru, but is utilizing the OEM oil pump like a Subaru system does:

https://vsthza.by3302.livefilestore.com/y4m0eIQt54hhpbyCK5O9Anl0QFA6NHRorzTBTTzSj6HdkxfFkp M-sbK3dfBUH_DQpdYrU9u7Yh0KyGupN3EaYYiLpN6qIGBu1GsUIj 6PZrJJL5MzPjRleB-WahJbU2eH4iaGW70SBOLyzgOAg2lDvLLzBGNON-uStRESZEF_KDKmk2W1plSYSxAQwMrpa3fX9cNiBBeWybD2IXC9 _0Njtm6rw?width=998&height=616&cropmode=none

Rob had his setup with the spintric as suggested before, but maybe his new routing will help. The way ARE suggests the Spintric:

https://wmthza.by3302.livefilestore.com/y4m-pWKJ-8WjtdlCZBJCN3GH2jjMJ6WxKOgo4dib_KycJqRsBqQwtfVF_wl PHw594WObw6AvjVCMePbsBebjdqcv5Um4SMPRsg8-rRyTfI0XV_WnJOpSfBzYsAD0Ixvo_cbJgTBC9-zvAENMcN5FT_yTNkGtvCYUGzZe6TW5LlMf4p66DQN_SoEYAmtj A0GtpcVy4LBthk8dkT2q0TkLJ60wg?width=650&height=464&cropmode=none

[Rob T]

Gator is right. I had it like the diagram shown last above. However, after talking to Gary at Spintric, the pressure drop through the cooler on the separated liquid side of the spintric may have been too large. So, by going through the cooler first, then to the spintric, the spintric can remove the air with virtually no pressure drop as both the liquid and "air" discharges of the spintric go right to the tank. One other thought I had was that a little bit of back pressure might help me keep the oil cooler full. When lookin at elevation, the bottom of the cooler is about even with the bottom of the spintric, which is mounted vertically. A trip to the track will answer this.

Chad thinks he remembers moving the spintric "last" as his last adjustment before I bought the car. In this configuration, with all three oil coolers on, I could only get the oil to 190 on a 105F day. Now I just have the one cooler, which I hope will give me 200+ so I can evaporate the condensation, etc. out of the oil.

After my 15 minute trailer test, with revs up to 6,000rpm and sustained about 3,000, there were zero bubbles in the oil.

[RetroRacing]

interesting. I don't like running the pickup oil through the cooler, even without the air being and issue, just in case you lose a bearing. I do like the thought of running the oil through the filter first, how much air removal can you expect out of a filter?

[Sgt.Gator]

interesting. I don't like running the pickup oil through the cooler, even without the air being an issue, just in case you lose a bearing. I do like the thought of running the oil through the filter first, how much air removal can you expect out of a filter?

Do you mean thru the Spintric first? It's not a filter, it's a way to spin the oil/airstream to separate out the oil from the air before it hits the tank. ARE claims it makes a big difference and some of the guys on the Corvette forum says it lowered their oil temps quite a bit. I don't know if any of the NASCAR guys are using them or not.

[RetroRacing]

No, just wanted to know if you could run a filter between the DS pump and the cooler/tank to keep them clean in case of a failure. Looking into it, I don't think there is enough pressure to push the oil through the filter. The spintric looks interesting, but we don't have oil cooling issues (40 row cooler) now, but if you push half air half oil through the oil cooler, I can see it becoming one.

Maybe a lower restriction screen filter?

[Sgt.Gator]

No, just wanted to know if you could run a filter between the DS pump and the cooler/tank to keep them clean in case of a failure. Looking into it, I don't think there is enough pressure to push the oil through the filter. The spintric looks interesting, but we don't have oil cooling issues (40 row cooler) now, but if you push half air half oil through the oil cooler, I can see it becoming one.

Maybe a lower restriction screen filter?

Usually, there are screens on the AN fittings that screw into the DS pan in front of the scavenge lines to the DS pump. They are really large though, they might catch pebbles! They are supposed to keep the DS pump from being destroyed. You could put a larger screen size filter on the pump to tank line. Like a 140 micron size Earl's filter. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ear-230312erl/overview/
https://static.summitracing.com/global/images/prod/mediumlarge/ear-230312erl_ml.jpg

[RetroRacing]

We do have screen fittings in the ds pan to grab the big stuff, I do have a dash 12 inline filter hanging out on the bench doing nothing, so that sounds like a winner.
Going to totally redo the plumbing and put the filter back in the stock location, run the ds return through the cooler. That gets rid of over 10' of dash 10 line under pressure.

[Rob T]

Here's a quick update: Spent yesterday replacing the shifter cables on the K-tuned shifter. After the car had the motor rebuilt, the shop ran them under the motor (bad) and they got scorched on the header. They worked one time at the track. I got the new cables and some pointers from Wayne at Very Cool Parts (Thanks Wayne). With a little help from my wife snaking them through, the job is done. WOW - the shifter is really amazing now. I can't believe how bad the old cables were damaged. Very smooth. I did what Wayne suggested and paid careful attention to the locations of the nuts and how far down the threads the spring clips were (not sure of the technical name). I threaded the cables from the front to the back, left them hanging in the back and connected everything up front first, then finished the back. They went in easier than I expected. Next track day in December.

[Wayne Presley]

Glad it worked out for you!

[psitter]

I just acquired Chad Plavan's 818R on 1/31/16. After his excellent work, and the advice from others on the forum, I am starting my own "build" thread. While the car is "built", I have a lot to learn, both mechanically and from a driving perspective. I plan to share my journey here and to learn from those who already well versed.

Rob, Hey trying to find a built car or a builder in my area ---Erie PA ----Have you heard of anyone. in the PA , Cleveland, Buffalo or Pittsburgh area?

[Wayne Presley]

Rob, Hey trying to find a built car or a builder in my area ---Erie PA ----Have you heard of anyone. in the PA , Cleveland, Buffalo or Pittsburgh area?

I can build you one, a very nice 818R. What did you have in mind?

[Frank818]

Rob, which cables are you using, VCP's race (brownish) cables?

Crossing fingers next run you can have a perfect one!

[Rob T]

I am using the brownish ones I got from Wayne at VCP. The other ones were the same, but did not live well next to the manifold. I routed the new ones high like Chad had it originally. The guys who did the engine for me didn't really pay attention, but the cables were toast from the dyno break in and the tuning. I moved them off the manifold and managed to get one track day, but the damage was done. These new cables are sweet. Thanks for the well wishes. I hope it goes well, too, and it is dry (it never rains in southern CA). Two things to figure out (other than my driving skills) at the track: how the new shifter cables work AND if my recent changes to the oil routing (scavenge pump->cooler->spintric->tank) gives me enough cooling for higher loads.

[C.Plavan]

I am using the brownish ones I got from Wayne at VCP. The other ones were the same, but did not live well next to the manifold. I routed the new ones high like Chad had it originally. The guys who did the engine for me didn't really pay attention, but the cables were toast from the dyno break in and the tuning. I moved them off the manifold and managed to get one track day, but the damage was done. These new cables are sweet. Thanks for the well wishes. I hope it goes well, too, and it is dry (it never rains in southern CA). Two things to figure out (other than my driving skills) at the track: how the new shifter cables work AND if my recent changes to the oil routing (scavenge pump->cooler->spintric->tank) gives me enough cooling for higher loads.

Hey Rob- I'm sure you noticed but just making sure. Make sure you secure the cables near the DS belt. They tend to move around and the motor moves a bit. You don't want them close to the belts and start rubbing.

[Rob T]

Thanks Chad. I had a bunch of clearance, but will check again. I appreciate the help. Rob

[Rob T]

Off to Buttonwillow Saturday. Running 13CW. Running with Speed Ventures. I am a little nervous. It was one year ago that the motor died at this event, started on the trailer. Weather is supposed to be perfect: 40 - 65, sunny with light winds. Report to follow. New shift cables and some changes to the dry sump return line plumbing: scavenge pump - cooler - spintric - tank. Running some Hoosiers with good "tread", but probably 25 heat cycles. Just interested in getting a feel for the new shifter cables and assessing temps (oil and water) with the dry sump changes.

[Sgt.Gator]

Hoping for the best!

[Scargo]

Yes, best of luck. Re-read all of your thread.
Wish you would get rid of cooler/heat exchanger (totally unnecessary on a race engine) and filter on the engine and do a "real filter" remotely before the rest of the system. At least for my wet-sump system, that's how I have had it plumbed for a while. I use larger racing oil filters. I can make a K&N HP 3001 fit (in my STi) but am switching to medium-sized 2005.
Again, best of luck and have fun. jealous. Had to stop in mid November!

[Rob T]

Good day at Buttonwillow. Ran four 20 minute sessions. Lots of traffic, but still big fun. My Hoosiers have a lot of heat cycles on them so are not as grippy (technical term) as they once were. First session at about 40F....got to almost 60 by the end of the day. Water temps about 170F. AWIC ambient +15F. Oil, 150F....seems like the changes to flow are OK, but won't know for sure until I see some 100's in the summer. The 320 RWHP tune is amazing. I'll post some stats, video, etc. I did not get a good shot at real clean laps from the traffic, but got some more seat time in December....I'll count my blessings. We had some crazy 35 - 50 mph wind gusts for one of the sessions. I was on the long sweeper to the right and the big gust came from the passenger side....felt the the car slid sideways a few feet. I little dicey. I kept it on the track, today though. Lots of others went "farming" in the California dust. More to come.

[Wayne Presley]

Congrats on the successful day!

[Zach34]

Awesome to hear of a successful track day in an 818. Thanks for sharing. I experienced some strong winds on my bike at Chuckwalla last January. Huge dust clouds with near zero visibility would occasionally appear around a corner. Disconcerting...

Is that oil temp even warm enough? Pretty awesome that it held that low on a turbo car, even as cold as it was outside. Good work.

[Sgt.Gator]

That's good news Rob!
I agree with Zach, you may want to tape over the oil cooler intakes a bit, your oil should be around 185 or more when running hard.

[Rob T]

Agree on the oil temp. I was probably driving 6/10 or 7/10. I can tape off one or both of the intakes that go to the rear-mounted cooler on the cool days. The test this time out was if I could get cool enough. The time before, the spintric was before the cooler and I think was bypassing most of the oil back to the tank. Now all the oil/air from the scavenge pumps go to the heat exchanger first. The Setrab rep told me the cooler would be fine with air/oil mixed. From there it goes to the spintric back to the tank. It will be interesting to see what happens when the air is 105....If I can succeed there, I will no longer need the oil coolers up front and their associated lines. That would be nice. For now, they are clean, empty and capped off awaiting warmer weather.

I wonder how "linear" oil temp will be with ambient temperature? All else being equal will a 50F increase in ambient temperature translate into a 50F increase in oil temp? Time will tell.

[Rob T]

OK...Here is some data. Remember, I am still a "novice", but I appreciate pointers. Here is the video.

https://youtu.be/oo6EwzkjqWs

[Rob T]

Here is a picture of the data analysis for the best lap in the video above. 77872

[DanielsDM]

Good to hear the changes are working.

[Mitch Wright]

Great news Rob, as Gator pointed out you really want your oil temp up around 200*

Be careful with ragged out tires they can bite.

[Frank818]

Finally a successful day! When you never let go it always end up paying!

[Rob T]

Here is some data I pulled from the best lap shown in the video above.....these are max values

Acceleration (g) 0.57
Deceleration (g) 0.92
Right Lateral acceleration (g) 1.36
Left Lateral acceleration (g) 1.44
Max speed (mph) 103
Max HP (calculated) 265
Max Torque (calculated) 244
Average HP (calculated) 64
Average Torque (73)

I saw 5 seconds in excess of 1.00 lateral in one of the turns. Also a couple seconds of 1.09g.

[Frank818]

Awesome! I love those lateral-Gs, keep em coming.

[Rob T]

Rained out.... I planned to do a track day at Buttonwillow today. It is raining this morning and the roads are wet. I have a flat bed trailer....and there is a chance of rain all day. It's not worth a wet track and getting the car really dirty. Bummer. Good news is there is another open day on Friday. Weather in the low sixties with bright sun and light winds. Stay tuned.

[Rob T]

Got Friday cleared with my boss.....the plan is to head to Buttonwillow Friday.

[RetroRacing]

I'm jelly, it won't stop raining here until May!

[Canadian818]

I'm jelly, it won't stop raining here until May!

I’d take rain over the -40 it is here...good luck Friday!

[Rob T]

Thanks, I grew up in Wisconsin. CA is better. I can visit the snow when I want. I owned two snowblowers in my life. I have to admit, that it is tough to beat that quiet walk in the woods after a good snow, though.....

[Rob T]

Good day at the track. Video to follow along with some stats when I get it all downloaded this weekend. Got the oil to 190 with one of the scoop vent lines disconnected. It was about 60F today. AWIC at 85. Coolant about 165. Good day. My transmission was about 250F above the axles and about 220 near the back, read on the top using an IR gun. Any concerns? Fluid was clear and looked good. No smell. 5MT.

[Canadian818]

I wonder if a transmission cooler would be a good idea. If the case was 250F, wouldn’t the oil be at least that hot if not hotter?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I wonder if a transmission cooler would be a good idea. If the case was 250F, wouldn’t the oil be at least that hot if not hotter?

The case and the oil will be within a few degrees of each other.
Bob

[Rob T]

Here is some data from Friday's track day. Video to follow. This was my best set of laps. I've also developed a form for tracking tire temps, etc. Feedback is always welcome.79313

[Rob T]

Here is some temperature data, etc. 79314

If someone can tell me how to upload excel files, I'll do that.

[Rob T]

Here is the video of my best three laps. These are the ones on the graphs above.

https://youtu.be/g5MtaMindA0

[EODTech87]

You could always use google drive to upload the excel document. Those tire temperatures seem really low. What kind of tires are you running?

[Wayne Presley]

Here is some data from Friday's track day. Video to follow. This was my best set of laps. I've also developed a form for tracking tire temps, etc. Feedback is always welcome.79313


You traction circle shows lots of straight line braking and not much trail braking to the apex.

[turbomacncheese]

Man, does anybody else watch these videos just to see the cars go from 60 to 100? So SWEEEEEEEET

[Rob T]

Hoosier A7

245 40 17 Rear
225 40 17 Front

They have a lot of heat cycles and the track was cold. Still a lot of meat on them, so I was saving the new set until I get a little more comfortable with the car.

[Rob T]

Wayne: Thanks. I am heading to school early in February to exorcise some of my bad technique. I will be driving a formula Ford, so hopefully learn how to carry momentum better. Last time I ran this configuration was in April of 2016, soon after I got the car. My best lap that day was 2:28. I was 2:01 Friday. If only I could make those kind of leaps every time......Still have a lot to learn and I am working on braking much later. I noticed with the other cars that the 818 can brake much later and still be safe. Big fun

[Rob T]

Here are some more performance stats from the TRAQMATE:
Max Braking: 1.19g
Max Acceleration: 0.75g
Max Right Loading: 1.49g
Max Left loading: 1.95g
Max Speed: 119.55mph
Max HP: 285
Max Torque: 299

These were all the maxes from the three laps above.

[DanielsDM]

Nice driving Rob. Good to see everything worked well too.
Going to a driving school is a good ideal, professional coaching is the most effective performance mod.

How were you measuring your tire temps?
The transmission case temperature is high enough that I would consider installing a temp sensor to see what the fluid temperature really is.
Thanks for posting the info.

[Mitch Wright]

What a great day for some driving.

[Rob T]

I was measuring tire temp with a needle pyrometer with about 3/8" exposed. I measured the inside, middle and edge of the tire.

[Rob T]

Off to Buttonwillow today for an afternoon track session. I'll let you know how it goes. I spent two days at Lucas Oil Racing school two weeks ago. Great School. Learned a lot. Have some new things to try today that should improve my driving.

[Canadian818]

Good luck!

[Mitch Wright]

Looking forward to hearing how your day has gone with your new found knowledge.

[Rob T]

Hi: it was a mixed day at Buttonwillow. I do not love the 27CW configuration. About 1.8 miles, seems like you are always turning right. My GPS system did not recognize the track so I didn't get lap times. I had an intermittent problem with the temperature gauge that really distracted me. Under acceleration, the temperature would drop out. I didn't know if it was a real problem or not, but being on a fresh rebuild, did not want to risk it. Car ran well, otherwise and I was able to practice some of my learnings when I was freaking out about the errant temperature. After the third session, I was able to verify it was a bad ground on the sensor, but by then, it was time to pack it up. I had to connect the second duct to the oil cooler. Hit 250 oil temp on the first session. With the second line hooked up, back to 190. It was 70F and perfect. I think this will work well.

My company is transferring me to Roswell, NM, so this was my last track day in CA. I have already spoken to some Subaru scene folks in NM and found a track in Albuquerque that sounds awesome. I also found a tuner to help me switch my SD tune from sea level to 5,000 ft elevation. I start in Roswell a week from Monday. Lots going on right now.

[Mitch Wright]

The hot air balloon festival in Albuquerque is amazing.
Well you get to experience a new location and venues. Moving is kinda a pain.

[flynntuna]

Ca is losing another talented person. Don't let the mother ship take you. :rolleyes: sorry Roswell begs the ribbing.
I'm sure you'll get a lo of that.

[Rob T]

Quick update: Got my car delivered to Roswell, NM yesterday (the company was great and moved it for me). Have an appointment for new high altitude tune (something like 5,500 ft above sea level in Albuquerque). After that....need to figure out when I can get to Sandia Speedway for some track time.....getting closer.

[Mitch Wright]

Rob sounds like you are settling in, enjoy New Mexico and look forward to a video from Sandra.

[Rob T]

Got the water temperature ground fixed today. The car fired right up after about two months. At the new house, the car is in the garage, off the trailer, so easier to drive around. Took a few laps around the cul de sac. To the tuner next weekend for my high altitude tune. We will see where we net out......

[Rob T]

Quick update. Went to the tuner Saturday. Elevation 5500ft. Paul Leung at Yimisport set me up with Speed Density and MAP sensor when I was in CA. About 320rwhp and 300Tq on 91 octane. Tune was perfect at altitude. Tuner recommended doing nothing. I appreciated his honesty. The tuner in Albuquerque, Cameron Dawes, tunes some wild stuff, like a 900+ Evo that I saw Saturday.

Yesterday, I did an oil change and a transmission fluid change in preparation for a trip to the new track on Saturday. Sandia Speedway in Albuquerque. The owner is Charlie. He is awesome. On "no event" days, you can let yourself in, sign the waiver, leave $60 and drive all you want. 1.7mi road course. More information next weekend.

Not quite as good as Mitch's deal (I have to drive 3 hours each way) but pretty awesome.:rolleyes:

[Mitch Wright]

Have fun.

Move to Bowling Green, nothing is more is than 6 miles away, Nashville is an hour down I65, we offer shop space for rent here at the track and you have 3.2 miles of high speed goodness.

[Sgt.Gator]

Sandia Speedway in Albuquerque. The owner is Charlie. He is awesome. On "no event" days, you can let yourself in, sign the waiver, leave $60 and drive all you want. 1.7mi road course. More information next weekend.

I'm moving to Albuquerque!

[Mitch Wright]

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=sandia+speedway+road+course+video&view=detail&mid=1093D082444D36F480601093D082444D36F48060&FORM=VIRE

[Rob T]

Thanks for the video, Mitch. That is the track. Won't be a lot of high speed stuff, but fun, nonetheless.

[DanielsDM]

Looks like fun!

[C.Plavan]

Not alot of run off room, but for $60, who cares! Have fun!

[Rob T]

Agreed. Staying on the track is going to be key. A great way to get some inexpensive seat time and practice fundamentals.

[Sgt.Gator]

It looks perfect for test & tunes before you trailer your car to a race. I'd love to have a local track where I could go make a few runs for $60 to make sure everything is working ok and as expected.

Racing there would be sketchy though.

[Rob T]

Agreed. Not planning on racing. Just open track days, literally. It's a 3 1/2 hour drive, so not as convenient as Buttonwillow was, but I AM NOT complaining. I'll let everyone know how it goes after Saturday. The plan is to get some video, etc. Not sure if my Traqmate will recognize this track, but I can "teach" it.

[Rob T]

I made it to Sandia Raceway in Albuquerque yesterday for an open track day. I was the only one there. It was about 85F with light winds. The car ran great. The track is very tight, and as Chad mentioned not a lot of run-off room, but it is a lot of fun. I did two sessions. AWIC was 102, Water 190, Oil 200. Oil pressure was 80-100 at speed and 60+ when idling.

During the second session I was coming into a very tight right hairpin at the end of a short straight. The brake pedal went to the floor. I just missed the tire wall and dropped one wheel off the track. Brakes would work if I pumped them. Took the car off the track and called Mitch Wright. After talking to Mitch for a while, and letting the car sit, we concluded that I must have boiled the brake fluid. It has been several months and a move since I changed the fluid, so my fault. We also noted that this is a very tight track with a lot of braking and no long, fast sections to allow any cooling. First order of business will be changing the fluid more religiously. I will also be looking at some ducting for the front brakes. I am no longer using the oil coolers that Chad installed in the front of the car. This may be a great place to pick up some air for the front rotors. Mitch has some ducts on his brakes. If anyone else does, I'd love to see what you did.

Video to follow.

[Mitch Wright]

Good morning Rob, always get to catch up. As we discussed the Sandia track is tight enough that the brakes don't have enough time to cool off. Clarification I don't have brake ducts on my 818 but have installed them on many other Race and track cars. With that said I haven't run my car on a track with as little recovery time as Sandia. Looking forward to your video.

[Rob T]

OK...here is the video. Best couple of laps at Sandia (first time there) including the brake "failure" where I think I should have changed the fluid. Today, installed a new PLX O2 sensor/gauge/tie in to my data logging. Works slick. The other unit died.

Happy for coaching as always. Tight track. Rob

https://youtu.be/tyN9IcsZYSI

[Sgt.Gator]

That will give you some pucker factor!
I think ya'll are right, very tight track with no straights for brake cooling. We have a track like that in the NW, Mission in BC. There's a lot of racers who won't go there anymore because it eats pads and rotors.

I am a little surprised that brake ducts haven't been a more discussed topic, at least in the R forum. Every race car I have now has them. Heck my STI has powered brake ducts, which are awesome if they are legal in your class. Just last week Josh and I were going over my R and discussing where/how to install front brake ducts. Now I know we'll be installing them.

[Zach34]

I about crapped myself just watching the video of the brake failure. Great job keeping it under control!

I'm doing a lot of body work now. With the new nose, there's the option of drawing from the large areas on each side of the small nose piece, or the small side scoops just in front of the front wheels. Any thoughts on which one would work better?

[Rob T]

I am thinking about the same thing. Currently, there are oil coolers on the small side scoops. If I take those out, there is a possibility. However, you have to then route around the wheel to get the air where you want it. I'm still noodling it. I also don't want to mess up the airflow through the AWIC and radiator. That is working well. I started a separate thread under "brakes".

[Mitch Wright]

Rob I am sure that got your attention.

I have checked the brake temps (rotors and calipers) with thermal paint and have not seen temps high enough to cause worry, I don't have ducts. With that said even with the 2 technical sections of the track we have 7-8 places we are over 100mph and 3 places I am close to or over 130 which allows for plenty of recover time. IMO the track Rob is running really doesn't allow for much recovery along with the lower speeds and corners so close together unlike Buttonwillow where he has run the car with out issue.
Gator at a places like Portland or Pacific I would be surprised if you would see similar brake temps to what I have seen. Calipers, rotors and pads also come into play but I think at Sandia the brakes really never have time to cool off and agree for that track ducts are a must. So far what I have found that is not the case for a typical road course with racing calipers, rotors and pads.

[Sgt.Gator]

Mission is the only real bad track in the NW.
I may play around with some simple ones like C6 Z06 ducts. Not with the backing plates and hoses, just the Z06 ducts aiming air at the disks.

https://www.corvettemods.com/C6-Corvette-2006-2013-GM-Front-Brake-Cooling-Duct-Kit--Pair_p_15908.html?gclid=Cj0KCQjw9LPYBRDSARIsAHL7J5 k7sM7XtvVq11TLyYBgkz0gqtBw3QTbPYqx9BDPR9DHrnWCiHkP ajAaAiWCEALw_wcB

https://www.corvettemods.com/thumbnail.asp?file=assets/images/km-15908.jpg&maxx=350&maxy=0

http://www.c6performance.net/catalog/images/c6-corvette%20Z06-Brake-coolling%20-ducts2.jpg

[Mitch Wright]

That is a great idea, I look at those C6 ZO6 ducts just about everyday and that hadn't crossed my mind. Actually think we have some laying around the shop and can see how they might fit. After talking to Rob I took a look and it appears their is a lot of room to fit a 4" duct and fit it right at the center of the Hat/Rotor.

[RetroRacing]

8646286463
brake pads work best in a specific hear range, so to keep the temps of the rotor equal on both the inside and outside face, you need to direct the air into the base of the rotor at the hub. Easy to make a round plate out of aluminum with a 3" tube to hook the ducting hose to and space it out from the hub to barely rub the inside circle of the rotor (this also helps cool the bearings). We chose to pull air from the undertray, using naca ducts (only because the splitter had the kick ups to do so), but often install a naca duct on the air box surrounding the rad, or from the air dam. The first gen nose didn't have a good place to do that either.....

[Mitch Wright]

Nice looking work. Don't know so I will ask, pulling the air just a few inches off the track surface I would think could be 30* hotter than ambient? The reasoning for my thought is I know it is not uncommon for our track pavement temp to be 130+* on a hot summer day. It would be interesting to see when moving at say 60mph what the difference is if any.

[RetroRacing]

That's why we like to take it from the front air box as a first choice, plus, it's way easier to do. Taking the air from below is only a splitter difference from taking it from the airdam, air speed is maybe better from on the airdam, but you are giving up downforce on the front by cutting holes and relieving the pressure on the splitter.

[Rob T]

That looks interesting. Do you have any pictures from the top side showing how you routed the ducting?

[Rob T]

I think I am going to go stepwise, first. This weekend, I pulled the oil coolers in the front that I am not using. I sealed everything back up (such as it is). The next time to the track, I am going to go with fresh brake fluid in all the brakes. I want to start simple. If I end up needing brake duct cooling, I now have a good visual of what I had. At a call out to Chad, the way he mounted those oil coolers in the front was pretty awesome. I am left with two three inch ports on the lower front corners of each side. They will be awesome if and when I need the brake ducts. Had a fun day wrenching on the car.

[Zach34]

Aw man, no pictures? :(

[Mitch Wright]

Rob, something else to inspect, when brake pads start getting thin they don’t dissipate heat as well as pads with more material.
I will change out pads when they get to 40% + or - for track use.

[C.Plavan]

Rob, something else to inspect, when brake pads start getting thin they don’t dissipate heat as well as pads with more material.
I will change out pads when they get to 40% + or - for track use.

Good Point. For reference your pads are Raybestos ST46 compound (99% sure) or Raybestos ST43 Compound (1% sure) :)

[Rob T]

Sounds like doing the pads at this point is prudent. I will look into it. Thanks for all pitching in. I appreciate it.

[Rob T]

Chad to the rescue once again. He saved the Wilwood pads in the replacement pad boxes. Raybestos Racing ST45R303.12 NRS and ST45R303.16 NRS.

[walt555]

Rob,
Was wondering if your using proportioning valves on the front in your brake setup? Thinking the whole smaller calipers pressing twice as hard causing extra heat.

Something to consider...Walt

[Rob T]

Hi: Here is some more data. Yes, there is a proportioning valve. I have not messed with it since Chad set it up. He and I talked about that today. I have brake pad wear information....

Fronts are both at 8mm or 50% of original which, I believe was 16mm based on what's on the box. Backs are both at 8mm or 67% of the original 12mm. So seeing a little more wear as a percentage on the fronts, but does not look insanely out of whack. I am no brake expert.

I am not at the 40% that Mitch mentioned above, but maybe in this short track duty, ready for some new pads. The $200 will be cheap compared to going 4-wheeling or hitting some walls or tires.

[Mitch Wright]

I am using Ferodo DS11 pads, good bite, easy on rotors and dissipate heat really well. When ready for replacements if you want to try them contact Daniel Staggs at Essex Parts

[Sgt.Gator]

Rob,
See my last update; https://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?26054-Gator-s-818R&p=328279&viewfull=1#post328279

[Rob T]

Gator: I was thinking the same thing, sort of. If I switch to "farm" mode, I think I can do the exact idea with a bit of 2X3 gutter downspout with a 90 on the end. Round the front end and attach to the inlet I have already on the front of the car via a short bit of 3" flexible hose I have two ports each side, but just use one for now. Cut a rectangle in the one panel and rivet the gutter to the wall like you have done with the Z06 duct. My wheels have 3 1/4 inch clearance from the inner fender at lock on each side, at the narrowest point. I wasn't sure if blowing air in the general direction would help, but anything is better than nothing, I assume. We are thinking alike, just you a little more elegantly.....

[Mitch Wright]

Getting some air back there will help.

[Rob T]

OK...let me start by saying that a sheet metal worker I'm not. But for $20 and a few hours, I have a way to use my existing four holes in the front of the car and get some air to my brakes. Similar to what Gator is trying, but a little bit more of a test. Yes the material is 2X3 steal downspout, which happens to fit perfectly behind the wheel when it is at lock. Install is in two weeks.87029

87030

[Rob T]

I plan to rivet to the inside of the wheel well.

[Sgt.Gator]

I love the downspout ducting!

[Mitch Wright]

There you go, that should be a big help.

[walt555]

OK...let me start by saying that a sheet metal worker I'm not. But for $20 and a few hours, I have a way to use my existing four holes in the front of the car and get some air to my brakes. Similar to what Gator is trying, but a little bit more of a test. Yes the material is 2X3 steal downspout, which happens to fit perfectly behind the wheel when it is at lock. Install is in two weeks.87029

87030

So got anything planned for the rear? I was thinking of trying to pull airfrom the side scoops.

[Rob T]

So: Here are the shots from the install yesterday. It worked out as well as I hoped. $20 of parts and about 10 hours of fun. One really sore elbow (like tennis elbow) from working the rivet gun in close quarters. Also, getting the hose clamps on the nose fittings was a challenge. Luckily, I'm a little guy.

Picture 1 - flexible hoses mounted in the front.
87668

Picture 2 - View from the side
87669

Picture 3 - View from the side showing relationship to rotor and caliper
87670

Picture 4 - Another side view - complete
87671

Picture 5 - View from the top at wheel lock - no interference
87672

The other side is "identical". Testing will tell how much it helps, but this shouldn't hurt anything.

[Rob T]

Sorry for the picture rotation issues. Not sure how to fix it.

[Rob T]

As for cooling the back brakes. I am not sure yet. What I can tell you because I changed the front pads yesterday is this....Front Pads started at 16mm and are now about 8mm. Back pads started at 12mm and are now about 8mm. So....8mm of front wear and 4mm of rear wear during the last 2+ years (1 year in the shop) of Chad and me driving.

[walt555]

Ok so no signs of heating on rear brake caliper, pad or disk. Just thought the rear would heat up first due to twice the pressure on the back to balance the system. Guess I'm off on that.

By the way ducting looks good!

[Rob T]

Replaced the brake fluid yesterday. Did a quick drive around the neighborhood. Everything seems good. Need to bed the brakes first at the track Friday. Then some open track sessions.

[Rob T]

"rained out". I had the car on the open trailer at 6:15. Started raining. Looked at the radar and it was raining to the North where I was going. Put the car back in the garage and took my other car to the track because I was going with a friend. The other car threw a brake warning during the second set, but I was able to drive a session in my friend's car. Had a great day, but no 818R news or video. Hope to get back out in August....

[mikeb75]

See what happens when you put rain downspouts on your car... :)

Pitty, was looking forward to your report on this smart/low cost mod. Good luck in Aug!

[Rob T]

LOL. I didn't think of that. Yep, jinxed myself for sure....

[Rob T]

Got to the track yesterday. It was a good day. 4 total sessions. 1 to bed some new front brake pads and three for driving. It was between 70 and 80 for the day with sun and a light breeze. I was at Sandia in Albuquerque. Once again, I had the 1.7mi road course to myself. The car ran well. I had fun.
Water temp - 180 - 192
Oil temp - 205 - 210
AWIC - 102 max (this is hotter than before. I used to get ambient Plus 10F, but I think it is a bit warmer with a shorter, tighter, slower track)
No issues with the brakes this time. The cooling ducts didn't hurt anything. Next time I will put some temperature paint on them to see how I am doing...
I probably have 30 heat cycles on my Hoosiers. When Mitch Wright texted me yesterday he called them "hockey pucks" - he's right. They are OK for now....getting seat time.
The weather said a 15% chance of rain. I have an R with an open trailer. 30 minutes into 3 1/2 hour drive home, the skies got dark. We pulled on the side of the freeway and got out my free HF tarp and some bungies. Had to add some duct tape. For the next two hours (the storm was moving south, so were we), we were in some really heavy rain. The last hour was dry. The tarp is toast, but the inside stayed dry (mostly). I am going to let the car dry thoroughly for a few days before I try to start it.

I need to figure out some way to make a nice, waterproof and 75mph capable cover for the cockpit. I am open to ideas on materials and how to attach it. The obvious answer is covered trailer. However, my truck can't handle that weight....

I'll post some video when I have time to upload it. I do know I was 3 seconds faster than last time I was there, and more consistent.

[Mitch Wright]

Rob it sounds like a great day. I have talked to a upholstery shop that makes snap on boat cockpit covers that said they could make one for me when I was ready for it. I am sure you could find someone close to home that could make one for you in a choice of colors.

[Rob T]

Here is a video from session 1. Best time was 1:37.975 I was pretty consistent all day, even on the heavily heat cycled Hoosiers. I still have a lot to learn in terms of driving, but I had fun.

https://youtu.be/Ragu2eQ4gHw

[Rob T]

Here are some stats from my GPS and g-meters and the Traqmate software. These are the maxes from the three laps shown, although the numbers were pretty consistent.

Maximum braking (g) 1.04
Max accel (g) 0.89
Max right turn load (g) 1.28
Max left turn load (g) 1.47
Max speed (mph) 96
Max HP 262.78
Max TQ 206.11

[Rob T]

Track day planned for 10/19. Weather is supposed to be sunny and 65, but rain up until then. I have an open trailer and got caught in a storm last time. I don't want to do that again. Praying for the storm to move through quickly. If I get to the track, I'll be sure to post videos, etc. I am going to try something different with my tires. I'll let everyone know if it works.

[Rob T]

The Good, The Bad and The Ugly(a story of my track day....)

The Good
1) Weather was perfect. 60F, light winds, clear blue sky.
2) The car was making awesome power and was running beautifully
3) Once again, I had the track to myself.

The Bad
1) Somewhere around Lap 7 of the first set I started smelling smoke and transmission fluid. Never heard a noise or felt any odd vibration
2) I pulled off the track and saw a puddle of transmission fluid under the car, coming from the front part of the transmission (not from the axles or the rear)
3) No level level on the dipstick
4) 7 hours of driving to and from the track for 7 laps (ouch)

The UGLY
1) It's amazing how far 3.5 quarts of transmission fluid can be spread in a 3-ft wide stripe on a race course. (about 1/2 mile). I stayed and helped Charlie and Mike put down the absorbent and sweep the track because they are racing motorcycles over the weekend and the oil would be dangerous for bikes.

The car is in the garage and I have a busy weekend so I am not sure when I can begin the diagnostic. I am hoping it is something as simple as "the drain plug came out". Which would make me feel foolish, but easy to fix. Thanks again to Mitch Wright for the consulting on next steps. More to come.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Rob, sorry to hear about your bad day.
Your probably lucky the oil didn't get on the rear tires.
Let us know the cause when you figure it out.
Bob

[Rob T]

Bad News. Here are the pictures. A whole blown right through the transmission case. Looks like a piece of some gear broke off and got pushed through the casting by the bolts on the Torsen Limited Slip. Not sure how the gear broke, but this is a whole much bigger problem.958779587895879

[Rob T]

Here are some more pictures....

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[Rob T]

Anybody have an idea where this gear tooth came from? There was no "bang" the car was running fine. I just smelled transmission fluid and burnt transmission fluid when it hit the exhaust. Bad news is that I probably don't have time to work on this for about a year and a half. I do have a spare transmission. I really have two options.

1) Sell everything (not really what I want to do)
2) Put the car to "sleep" for 14 - 16 months. Then I will have time to work on it and the space to work on it properly. If that is what I need to do, I'd be interested in a list of things I need to do to make sure the car wakes up no worse for the wear.

Let's hear what you guys think about the failure and my options. I'm bummed because I wasn't even really pushing it. I'll work on the video in a few days and see if there are any clues there. I never dropped the clutch or did any crazy braking down shifts.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Rob,
I had a transmission failure on my 818 a couple of year ago.
My 2006 transmission case had never been opened. At that point I probably had 300 hard autocross runs on it. While driving it down the highway I dumped all the oil. Turned out the bolts the hold the ring gear to the differential worked loose and punched holes in the case.


https://youtu.be/IBGVQCvmhRs

I picked up a 2012 MT5 transmission for $600 and was back up running a few days later.
Bob

[Mitch Wright]

Shoot that is not what we were hoping for. Looks like a tooth from either the ring or pinion gear. You really won’t know the cause until you pull it apart and take a good look inside. When I have had something like that happen something was floating around in the gear box Like a ring gear bolt or piece of a shift fork or gear. Could just be a gear failure, the good news is you have a spare and it isn’t a tough job to change out.

[Sgt.Gator]

Anybody have an idea where this gear tooth came from? There was no "bang" the car was running fine. I just smelled transmission fluid and burnt transmission fluid when it hit the exhaust. Bad news is that I probably don't have time to work on this for about a year and a half. I do have a spare transmission. I really have two options.

1) Sell everything (not really what I want to do)
2) Put the car to "sleep" for 14 - 16 months. Then I will have time to work on it and the space to work on it properly. If that is what I need to do, I'd be interested in a list of things I need to do to make sure the car wakes up no worse for the wear.

Let's hear what you guys think about the failure and my options. I'm bummed because I wasn't even really pushing it. I'll work on the video in a few days and see if there are any clues there. I never dropped the clutch or did any crazy braking down shifts.

Well that answers the mystery. Sorry to see this worst case scenario.

Option #1 will be tough since the car is broken you aren't going to get a very good price.

Option #2 is certainly possible and if that's your choice I and other folks here will be happy to help you with advice on hibernation. The short list from me would be to put Stabil in the tank, fill the tank all the way up, and run the engine long enough to be sure the Stabil has made it's way thru the entire fuel system. And of course change the oil before you store it. A battery maintainer is a good idea too.

You didn't list it but I will: Option #3. Pay a local Subaru specialist shop to mod and install your spare tranny. It shouldn't cost very much.

And before you put the new spare in you might consider putting reinforcement plates on it. The best known are the Moore Blast Plates. FastWRX also sells their MACH V Transmission Reinforcement Brace.

And that tranny oil cooler we've discussed.

Let's get you back on the track!


http://shop.mooreperformanceparts.com/moore-performance/moore-performance-blast-plates/mp5mtbp/i-2280992.aspx

https://www.fastwrx.com/products/mach-v-transmission-reinforcement-brace-kit-subaru-5mt

[Rob T]

I don't want to sell it. I will keep it. I am just short on good work time and the space I need to get serious tearing the car apart. That is why I am considering the storage option. I also want to keep learning. The storage option would "free my brain" for a while and I would stop worrying about it. The blast plates seem like a good idea.

Rebuilding the engine was a bridge too far, but I feel like I need to be able to pull and re-install the transmission, even if I get help rebuilding it.

[Hindsight]

Rob, like you, I have no place to work on the 818 at my new house (no garage - currently pricing out having one built but it's SO expensive). For now, I have it stored in a Public Storage unit which costs $225 per month. I could have found one cheaper but I'm also storing all my tools and auto parts in there too so I needed a really large unit.

As far as the transmission is concerned, for an 818R, I would strongly suggest you convert to a 6 speed and consider adding a transmission cooler. They are much more durable than the 5-speed units. It does require a frame modification and also new shifting linkages and a few other bits, but it's been well-documented here.

[Rob T]

Hindsight: I see a 6 speed in my future. I have been talking to Wayne who has done a bunch of them.

I watched the video and can't figure out where I broke the car. I will post it shortly. Here is a synopsis of the "best of best" numbers from my few laps at Sandia on 10/19

Best time: 1:38.726
Braking: 1.07g
Acceleration: 0.908g
Right Turn: 1.31g
Left Turn: 1.50g
Max speed 97.77mph
Max HP: 242.18 (calculated)
Max TQ: 189.28 (calculated)

60F sunny, light winds. Had the track to myself.

[Rob T]

Here is the video from the 10/19/18 session at sandia before the transmission broke.

https://youtu.be/tj5X32Mmij0

[Rob T]

On Thursday, my car was abducted by aliens in Roswell, NM. On the "spaceship" were some other specimens including a Ferrari F40, a new Saleen pick-up and a Rolls Royce SUV. Fortunately, the aliens released my car, uninjured, in Enterprise Alabama, where Wayne Presley found it.107073107074107075

[Scargo]

But did it breed with any of the other cars? What will Wayne do with it?

[Rob T]

6 speed conversion, new clutch, new flywheel. This, after I broke my 5MT.

At some point in the future, I will have my spare 5MT for sale(not the broken one), a clutch and a flywheel, as well as a torsion LSD, assuming it didn't get trashed when the gear tooth punched through the case (take a look back in my thread to see)

[Hobby Racer]

Which 6 speed did you go with? I recently picked up a JDM 6 speed out of a Legacy Spec B that I'll be putting in next winter. I also picked up the longer ratio 5th and 6th gears so the box will have the same gearing as the USDM Legacy Spec B and the JDM Forester STI 6 speeds. IMHO its the best gearing for an 818.

[Sgt.Gator]

Which 6 speed did you go with? I recently picked up a JDM 6 speed out of a Legacy Spec B that I'll be putting in next winter. I also picked up the longer ratio 5th and 6th gears so the box will have the same gearing as the USDM Legacy Spec B and the JDM Forester STI 6 speeds. IMHO its the best gearing for an 818.

The JDM Forrester STI 6 speed was my swap into my legacy GT Wagon race car. It ran well. The internal oil pump makes hooking up an aux trans cooler fairly simple. I've since replicated it on my USDM 2005 STI tranny. ZF Design rebuilt my STI tranny last winter and put Spec B / JDM Forester STI gearing ratios in it.
My transmission temp gauge never goes above 180 even in long endurance races.

[Rob T]

Great to hear. Thanks,

[Rob T]

I picked up my 818R from Wayne in Enterprise AL on my way from Roswell, NM to Woodruff, SC. The 6 speed is in. Wayne ran a pull on his Mustang Dyno. 275 RWHP and 248RWTQ. Need to put some new shaft seals on. Looking forward to getting back on the track. I have a few projects to do at the new house before I get to work on the car. 2,000 pine trees to plant before Christmas....

[Mitch Wright]

Enjoy your retirement Rob.

[Rob T]

Well....the car is all back together. Up on jack stands still. Replaced both shaft seals and pulled both stub shafts. One of the seals was completely blown and I ended up using a magnet to get the spring pieces out of the diff. I ordered both of the Company 23 sundial tools. A bit pricey, but they work awesome, right over the top of the stub shaft. My 6MT has both sizes. They made pulling and replacing the sundials a piece of cake. I also developed "my own" trick for the stub shafts. I used a 14 inch nail puller and increasing thickness shims under it. The nail pulling end fits under the CV body and there is a lot of leverage. Once I figured it out, they popped right out. I took the opportunity to install rivnuts on the diffuser to make it removable. Also did the same thing for the back panel. Ran the car on jack stands yesterday up to temperature and to check for leaks (none - I had to pull the pan on the bottom of the transmission and it was my first Permatex gasket). Also bled the brakes. Carolina Motorsports park has some track days coming up.......

[Rob T]

Back on the track! I had my first track day in SC yesterday. Got out to Carolina Motorsports Park. The people there are awesome. It's been a long time since I was in my car. I bedded in some new brakes and did two other 20 minute sessions. I am trying to figure out the new 6 speed transmission and how it feels. The car ran great. The track was wet when we started from an all night rain. I only had 5 cars in my run group. Talk about open track. It was 42F when we started and about 100% RH. Car made great power. Water temps about 175. Oil about 180 to 190. New transmission was 160 after the last session. I'll post some video when I get a chance. Lots for me to learn about track driving. CMP is going to resurface this summer. By fall, it will be a brand new track. If you ever get a chance to come to CMP for their Turn One track days, the staff and drivers are laid back. A fun day. The track is also "safe" with lots of run off area.

[DanielsDM]

Right on Rob, good to hear you're back on the track and the car is running well. How is the track at CMP?

[Rob T]

Hi: Here is my best lap from Carolina Motorsports Park on 02/01/20. This was my first time to this track, the first time back on track in over 14 months (move and retirement) and I had just bedded brakes. On top of that, it was my first day with the new 6 speed. The reverse lockout was bypassed, making it easy to over-travel to fifth, making fifth hard to find. I am working on a fix for that. As always, I have a lot to learn about track driving, but had a really good time. Mostly great to be back on the track with a running car.

https://youtu.be/VdBqn7Z93wo

[fletch]

Hi Rob,
I didn't realize you moved from NM. I guess I won't be seeing you at Sandia Speedway anytime soon!
Enjoy your retirement and the track time.

[Rob T]

I have been busy the last few weeks, off and on, designing and building a reverse lockout for my 6MT that I could operate from the driver's seat. Let me start by saying that I am no "Mechie" and I am in awe of his (and other's) machining skills. I built this with normal shop tools (welder, drill press, grinder, etc.) with things laying around AND my McMaster account. I did not want to change my k-tuned shifter.

Issue: There is a reverse lockout on the 6MT. If it is left "unlocked", I found it very difficult to find fifth gear on the track. When "locked" the shifter moves easily to 5th. Disclaimer: This has been tested on my trailer and I am waiting for my next track session, but there is a huge difference.

Information: The lockout mechanism in the transmission is rotary. It has multiple locations as it moves where it is either locked or unlocked. This turned out to be advantage.

Design Criteria:
1) I wanted to be able to actuate it while strapped into my car in case I needed reverse on the track.
2) I wanted the "fail" position to be no reverse, so that it could not stop working on the track
3) If I could get "mechanical stops" at the ends of travel that corresponded to the "lock" and "unlock" rotary positions, that would be great.

Solution: Using a 6mm rod end and a 6mm ball joint I built an arm to move the rotary lever. The ball joint is attached to the lever. That lever pivots around an axle with carbon fiber impregnated PEEK washers on a repurposed bolt so that the lever can be moved up and down. The other end of the lever is connected to a ball joint welded to a repurposed bike cable clamp, which connects to a locking t-handle cable control mounted in the cockpit (I used another bike brake piece to allow for cable adjustment, a split collar and a thick bushing to guide the cable. The bracket mounted to the transmission (M8 bolts with washer shims behind the plate) blocks the arm exactly at the position needed to allow reverse and the cable was adjusted so that when it is fully extended (handle all the way in) the arm is in the lockout position.

Here are some pictures. I am sure there are other solutions to this problem.

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[Santiago]

What's that they say about necessity mothering invention? :)

Nice.

The cable is probably tight and won't walk it's way out, but that's the sort of thing that always wigs me out when I do something like this. You might want to consider a small/simple safety strap that holds the handle fully depressed even under high-vibration (i.e. track) conditions. Just a thought.

[Ajzride]

Can you post bigger pictures? Since I don’t have 6MT I’m trying to figure out what you did and it’s all so tiny.

[Rob T]

Santiago: The cool think about the cable I found is that it locks in any and every position. Move it where you want it, twist it 90 degrees - locked. It's pretty slick. Another factor for "fail safe" is the spring on the transmission arm pulls the cable....so the cable vibrates/moves naturally toward the full "closed" position. I had the same concerns. I spent a lot of time at the back of the car scratching my head and trying stuff.

[Rob T]

Here is an attempt at some larger pictures.123413123414123415123416

[Ajzride]

Much larger, thanks. Looks very creative, good work.

[Rob T]

I got to the track yesterday! Carolina Motorsports Park open for a Turn one track day. I ran in the solo group. There were about 7 cars. There was also a super solo and open wheel group. I ran three sessions before packing up. I was watching the weather forecast and some big thunderstorms were building. I have an open trailer and a two hour drive. Interestingly, the sky opened less than two minutes after I got the car safely back in the garage. It rained buckets. Also, my house had a "near" lightening strike. It popped about 7 breakers and shorted one wire inside a switch. Crazy.

Back to the track day. 3 twenty minute sessions. I had new Hoosiers on. Car ran awesome. Reverse lockout worked great for finding 5th gear. Ambient temp 70-80F. Water temp was 190-195. Oil temp hit 240 as I drove harder, but stayed there. AWIC - 100 - 105. I drove the car as hard as I have ever driven it.

Videos to follow when I have a chance to get them done. Also some more stats.

[Hobby Racer]

Videos to follow when I have a chance to get them done. Also some more stats.

Can't wait ... I'm dying here waiting for New York to open up and get back on track. Until then I will live vicariously through you!