Planning Stage - What should be done the first time around?

[Yama-Bro]

Hi Guys,

My name is Frank. It has been my goal to build a Factory Five roadster for many years. If things continue to go well, I will make an order within the next year. I've started to put together a plan and budget for the build.

Here's the basic plan...
Complete kit
BluePrint Engines 408 w/fuel injection
Tremec TKO-500 or 600 transmission
Ford 8.8 Rear Axle w/3 link suspension
Factory Five 15" wheels
Power brakes
Heater/Defroster
Vintage gauges


My 1st question is; Are there any features or options that I should make sure to get in on the build the first time around as opposed to upgrading later. For instance, I've heard that the heater/ defroster is very difficult to add after the body is installed, so it is best to do during the build. Also, I have read that power brakes are tough to upgrade to later. What else falls into that category?

My 2nd question; I want to go with the 15" wheel look. I love it. However, in the future, I would like to have the option to throw on some 17" inch rims for a day at the track or a random autocross. Is it possible to get the 15" sized brakes to perform good enough for "just for fun" autocross and track days? Also, would upgrading to the 17" sized brakes be something fairly easy to do on down the road, if I decide to get more serious about racing.

Thanks in advance!

Frank

[Jeff Kleiner]

Kudos for planning in advance Frank! The complete kit PBR 2 piston front calipers combined with a set of 11.65" rears will let you run 15" wheels and be more than capable for track and autocross duty, especially if you install good pads. Power brakes are a personal decision when using the Wilwood dual master cylinder pedal box; I've built cars both ways. I'm one of the biggest power steering supporters you'll find here and I urge you to seriously consider it. It makes the car much more pleasant on the street and is virtually mandatory for any serious autocross or track work. I have not ever built a roadster without it and when I get in customer cars with manual steering I'm reminded why. Agreed, if you are going to do heat do it during the build.

Good luck,
Jeff

[pcww]

Power steering. Breeze.
Mechanical throttle. Forte.
Hydraulic clutch
I would take a long hard look at the wheels/tires. I am no expert but I made my decision on 17" based on availability of tires and my perception that they were of a more modern design. Hopefully those with more knowledge will chime in.
I would consider the TKO 600 over the 500.
Kleiner mod for footbox.
Russ Thompson turn signal.
and last but not least I would get rotary cam lock seat belts and ditch the Simpsons. I am so tired of having to strap myself and my passengers in after explaining the process over and over.

[CraigS]

Agreed the brakes that come w/ the kit, with better pads, will be fine for all but multi-lap full bore track events. And brakes are an easy upgrade later. Not sure I would go w/ power brakes though. You lose the ability to adjust front to rear balance since you need to use a traditional dual MC rather than the double MCs w/ balance bar. PS for sure. If you go TKO600 search for people who do some internal upgrades to make it shift nicer. Advantage of the 600 is you can pick 1st and 5th gear ratios. This may be a budget buster but...if at all possible I'd go for the 2015 IRS. PCWW already mentioned the larger psgr foot box. This is MUCH easier to do while building. I'd do it even if you and your wife don't need it. It will make a sale easier later. BTW welcome to the forum.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Would really rethink the wheel size. performance tires in 15" are drying up. You might want to look at some of the big tire outlets like Tire Rack or performance tire suppliers like Summit or Jegs to see what is available. If you are happy with what available go for the 15"'s

Tires can also be bought through Amazon at attractive prices. Got my NITTO's there.

[pcww]

Agree with Craig on reconsidering power brakes. I have 6 piston front Willwoods and 4 piston rears and really like them. The fist time I got in it brought me back to the 60s but after a couple of rides I really like. I have the adjustment knob under the dash and in general like the feel of these. However this is my first build and would suggest you look at the builds of the more seasoned vets here and on the other forum. Edwardb, Jeff Kliener, Todd Buttrick etc. They are great resources.

[Larry Johnson]

In reading these posts I was struck by CraigS's comment about "upgrades to the T-600 to make it shift nicer."
I have a 600 coming from Mike Forte for my 2016 Coyote build.
Can you be more specific and explain what needs to be done to the tranny?
Larry

[edwardb]

In reading these posts I was struck by CraigS's comment about "upgrades to the T-600 to make it shift nicer."
I have a 600 coming from Mike Forte for my 2016 Coyote build.
Can you be more specific and explain what needs to be done to the tranny?
Larry

You'll get different opinions on this. TKO's have a reputation for being harder to shift than a T-5. They do take some time to break in. There may be others, but I'm familiar with the shift mods available from Liberty Performance in the Detroit area. Local for me. I have one of their modded TKO's in my Mk4 and it shifts great. But to be fair, it's the only TKO I've ever driven, so I don't have anything to compare it to. I believe Mike has stated in other threads that mods are not required for the TKO.

[6t8dart]

I learned a few things on my build. Here are some things to think about.

1. I like using mustang brake components with a power brake setup, upgrade to a good set of slotted rotors and grippy pads. Also, a power rack is nice, I had manual on my last car, it sucked. My garage faces the alley, I could never back out without have to full forward at least twice while turning lock to lock. With stick front tires, it can be a pain.

2. Make you footboxes larger. There is plenty of room on passenger and a little on the drivers side. Makes it easier to get in and out, and spreads out a little too. Sometimes you got make sure Big Jim and the twins are getting adequate airflow on hot days.

3. Seats, do your homework. A lot of options. Cobra Classics makes a variety of lowback sizes. I have the FFR Big and Tall seats, i would consider them unless you are fairly short, even at normal height, they allow you to sit a little lower in the car. Make sure you adjust the pedals and steering wheel to feel comfy.

4. Consider a top if you are not too tall. Makes A/C a better option, and you don't have to worry about rain.

5. Tires. Get something sticky, short car + light weight + power = unintended donuts.

6. Storage, make sure you have a place to lock up documents like insurance, registration, etc. either a glove box or behind seat box. Even cooler, make an under carpet lockbox.

[edwardb]

Two comments about modded footboxes: (1) What you can (or can't do) is very much dependent on the engine you choose. A 302 based SBF has the most available space for expansion, with others less. Some much less. (2) Factory Five has made some very recent changes to the footboxes, adding a bump-out on the outside driver's side, and also making some changes on the inner driver's side that provides space for the bigger engines (Coyote, etc) without so negatively impacting foot space. There's been a lot written about footbox mods, but some of it may be dated now with these changes.

[Olli]

A very important part of your planning should be researching what your State's requirements are for you to actually obtain title and registration. It might influence your build plan.

You really should have your location in your profile.

Olli

[NukeMMC]

All good advice above. Research this build. You will thank yourself later. Look up every aspect of what is involved with this build and plan, plan, plan. Keep in mind that this is NOT ... repeat NOT a cookie-cutter, Piece A goes into Piece B IKEA-type build. You will have to fit panels, adjust, file, grind, cut, swear and bleed. You will have to do some improvisation, ask for help and throw a couple wrenches when you try something 4 times and it just doesn't cooperate. FFR has done an awesome job putting together a kit that someone with some decent mechanical skills and is self-motivated can assemble. If you are lacking skills in a particular area, whether it's electric (my weakness), suspension setup, body or bringing the concepts you have for the things you want to do to make it YOURS together ... ask for help. I have been working on engines from VWs to Harleys to crotch rockets to 60,000Hp submarines since I was 12. I got stuck with rough panel fitting, body alignment and suspension alignment. I had to get help from Mark Dougherty to get me over the hump and get it off to paint. It's an ego boost to be able to admit your limits.

[Yama-Bro]

Thanks for the great responses! If any one else wants to chime in, by all means, keep them coming! I'll take all the advice I can get. =)

I tried updating my profile, but it appears that I may not have enough posts yet to change that info. So I'll let you know that I live in Nebraska. It's an easy state to pass inspections. I'm fairly mechanically inclined. I've never built a whole car, but I used to drive Jeeps and had to work on them all the time. I've also rode and wrenched on ATVs for many years and a few years ago started riding a Harley. I am a mechanical designer and work for a company that builds crate engines. I'm looking forward to the FFR build as a chance to learn something new and to challenge myself. I realize my limitations and I'm not afraid to admit I don't know everything and never will, so I'll be asking a lot of questions. haha. I've literally wanted to do this since I was 10 years old (that was almost 30 years ago).

I've had the opportunity to sit in a Mk3 awhile back. Last year I actually got to drive a sweet Mk4 that one of my co-workers built. The impressions I got from driving that car steered me towards my plans (pun intended).

My co workers FFR does not have power steering and I love the way it feels. Of course, I was driving on the street, not a track, so it didn't take much effort to turn. That's one thing I thought I would try without power and then upgrade later if I decide I need it. How difficult is it to upgrade to power steering later? When I think of difficulty, I'm thinking of things that are nearly impossible to access or you have to take off the whole body to do it.

The brakes on my friends car seemed to stop good, but took a ton of effort to get them to respond. It kind of reminded my of driving my Dad's '68 GTO that doesn't have power brakes. Maybe this could be improved with better pads? He has 17" wheels, so the brakes should be better than what would be under my 15" wheels. I may not go with power brakes. I would really like to drive someones car to see how they feel with properly setup brakes.

I believe his clutch wasn't powered either, but it felt fine to me.

Over the years, I have went back and forth on the 15" wheels vs 17" wheels. I just love the way the 15 inchers look with a set of meaty billboard tires. It makes my heart skip a beat every time I see a car with those. LOL. I was thinking of getting some Cooper Cobra tires and doing the stencils to make them look like billboards, all while having a little more up to date performance. And as I posted, I'm planning on getting another set of 17" rims and tires to run on the track.

I will definitely look into the TKO-600 transmissions further.

The foot box mod will be added to the list, that one sounds like a no-brainer and much easier to do during the build.

I will look into the turn signal setup, that would be nice.

The top is definitely on the list, but it will be something added later on.

I like the independent rear end, but it's kind of a budget buster.

PS. My build plan is probably leaning towards the more original look. I was thinking vintage gages, 15" tires, rear shifter, low back seats, one roll bar, and a pretty princess blue paint job.

[CraigS]

In reading these posts I was struck by CraigS's comment about "upgrades to the T-600 to make it shift nicer."
I have a 600 coming from Mike Forte for my 2016 Coyote build.
Can you be more specific and explain what needs to be done to the tranny?
Larry Larry I don't have personal experience but have, over the years, read many comments about TKO600 being stiff shifters so thought I would throw that info into the mix. See EdwardB's reply just below your question. That wouldn't keep me from buying a 600 as I would really like to have optional gears which my 500 doesn't.

[edwardb]

I've had the opportunity to sit in a Mk3 awhile back. Last year I actually got to drive a sweet Mk4 that one of my co-workers built. The impressions I got from driving that car steered me towards my plans (pun intended).

My co workers FFR does not have power steering and I love the way it feels. Of course, I was driving on the street, not a track, so it didn't take much effort to turn. That's one thing I thought I would try without power and then upgrade later if I decide I need it. How difficult is it to upgrade to power steering later? When I think of difficulty, I'm thinking of things that are nearly impossible to access or you have to take off the whole body to do it.

You're very lucky to have had a chance to drive someone else's Roadster. Most of us (myself included) do not allow it. Just not going to happen. Rides all day long. Love to. But no driving.

Anyway, to the power steering question, and this is debated a ton. Three points: First, yes it can be installed after the build. Not super hard, but not the easiest thing either. Obviously the rack needs to be changed which in addition to the work will mess up your front alignment. The bigger challenge might be the engine driven pump. Typically it will require changes to the front dress of your engine, possibly a different rotation water pump, etc. Point being for both that you're taking off probably perfectly good parts and replacing them, which could prevent you from pulling the trigger. Why not just do it once? Second, it's not just about steering effort. It's also about front end alignment, because you can double the caster with power steering which makes the car track and center better. Especially at highway speeds. It's a subtle difference, but a very good one. Third, my first build had manual steering. My biggest single regret was not doing power. My second build has power steering, and what a difference. Just changes the whole driving experience. Like Jeff, I won't have one without it. Good luck whatever you decide.

[MPTech]

With respect to PS, I drove 3 Cobras without it before I built mine. I built mine with, No regrets and I'd do it again. Never heard anyone with PS say next time they'd build without.

[KDubU]

From a total newbie to another, there is a lot to think about and plan. I thought I had a decent plan and while I am close to it, changes along the way have occurred.

Thoughts on 15" wheels well, I love the look too and that is what I chose. Not sure what it is exactly but it's a personal preference for me and nothing was going to sway me otherwise. Power steering, yes do it now not later. I was planning manual but decided otherwise after a lot of research. Footboxes I did not mod as the roadster was built for me from a size standpoint (5' 7", 150lbs) and my wife is tiny so didn't feel the need. I would recommend this though if you have any need whatsoever. I was just not confident in my metal work to just do it. Remember all mods will take time and cause you to differ from the manual and basic build.

Mods I went with, some cosmetic, some not:

PS
Tranny tunnel vents
Hydro clutch (Forte)
Mechanical throttle
Radiator kit (Breeze)
SS coolant pipes (Breeze)
RT turn signal (Russ Thompson)
Radiator shroud (Mike Everson)
Dual chrome roll bars (FF)
Gas N side pipes (Gas-N)
Front battery box (Breeze)

Biggest headache for me has been wiring as it's definitely not my strong suit and not doing enough planning on what additional parts are needed when. For example, SS flex hose connectors. Just when I think I ordered all I needed, there's one or two I forgot. More waiting for parts to arrive. It's surprising all what you need above and beyond the full kit once you start making changes. You can never plan enough and keeping a whiteboard close by during the build to have a list of next tasks is good so you can plan purchases accordingly.

Also a note on all the threads on here and the other site. A lot have made multiple changes to their builds and many make it look easy...ah, not so much. There is a certain skill that many on here have that is hard to mimic and that can be frustrating sometimes. Also the mods they do does not mean you have to do them. Remember this is your car you are building.

[dallas_]

First of all, welcome!

My advice is to really have a good idea of what you want to do with the car before you decide some of these things.

I love the look of 15" wheels but I wanted to track the car so wanted better brakes and tires than I could get with the 15's so that affected my decision.

If you want an original looking car and are not going to track (or 'just for fun' track days) it then go with the 15's. They do look great.

Upgrading later for the track can be done but where do you stop? Fuel cell, fire system, Accusump, brakes, shocks, springs, wheels, tires, anti-roll bars, etc....

Again, the more you know what you want of your car, the better decisions you will make now.

edit: oh and on power steering, electric PS is an option too. That's what I have and I love it.

[Dave Howard]

Hi Yama-bro,

Looks like you have a good start to your plan. As others have said, a couple things to consider. First and foremost is the State requirements. Make sure those are fulfilled. Then, decide what the car is going to be used for. That will dictate what you need. Then decide on the look. This will dictate what you want.

Mine is a clutter free MkIV with modern HP (Coyote) and TKO600 coupled to a Moser 8.8. No issues with the TKO600 for my style of driving. My plan was to have a bullet proof drive train. My NT555s are the weak link. They'll cut loose before I break any drive line components. I put lots of touring miles on my car. But keep in mind....these things will NEVER be a touring car. I have low back seats because I wanted that look. The seats are hard on your back and neck after a few hundred miles. I don't have PB but I do have the Wilwoods. They stop with minimal effort and not having PB helps to keep the engine bay clutter free. I don't have PS for the same no clutter reason. I don't need it for what I'm using the car for.

Battery storage either under the trunk floor or up front will give you more storage space. And there are a number of kits out there that take advantage of unused space above your gas tank. This is very useful if you're touring. More space for your wife's bag(s).
I would not recommend the installation of a sound system. You will be disappointed. You can't hear it at any speed.

Spend the money to have all visible aluminum panels powder coated. They will look amazing and will be easy to clean after your first drive through bugs and wet dirty roads.

Think long and hard about your dash layout preference. Either the FFR pre-cut arrangement or the "competition" arrangement. I have the pre-cut. The next car will be the competition. Too much of pain for me to change it on this car.

Later when the build is complete, consider spending a few $$ on a 3M wrap around the front of the car before you take the first stone chip in that nice paint job.