Gauging Interest: Bell Crank Shifter

[Mechie3]

Well...this is interesting.

I just got a call from the machine shop that laser cuts most of my parts. They have a 3 axis mill now (and have for a couple months) but they're completely new to this form of fabrication. They're quoting my bell crank parts and the shop asked me "so....how much do you want to pay for these parts because we're new to this and don't know how to quote it".

That's a new one for me. lol. I told him the way I decide to buy parts is doing a group buy and see how much interest there is. If there's interest, I buy parts. If there isn't, I don't. Simple and easy. This time it's a reverse interest check, which is odd and awkward, but I told them I would see what I can sell them at and let them know what price point I would need to come in under to make a purchase of parts.

So, without further ado, what's your limit for a bell crank setup? $200? $250? $300? $20? Of course, everyone would like one for $20 though. ;) Haha.

Setup would include:
Base plate
Bell crank with ball bearing
Cable mounting plate
Selector arm
All rod ends (anodized aluminum or steel, steel is cheaper, aluminum looks cooler :cool: )
Adjustment rod x2 (goes between rod endsadjust shift point)
All stainless hardware

Does not include:
Cables (use the FFR cables with the FFR setup or buy some 7' cables to work with MR2 setups)

Does not currently work with the VCP shifter as the bell crank action needs to be inverted.

Pics of a previous prototype:
The arm shown is an older revision that was too short so I just stuck a random piece in there in the meantime. Only one adjuster rod is shown too.

http://i.imgur.com/1N1rNCW.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/E599OjQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Y6QHoDz.jpg

[JAubin]

My shift linkage is probably the second favorite item I've expanded my budget with (iWire holds the #1 spot). I was lucky and snagged a used setup w/ an MR2 shifter for $200. That said, if I were to do it again I would definitely pay $250 for a brand new linkage, since MR2 shifters are cheap anyway.

[Mechie3]

$250 was my original target price. I've gotten quotes from one shop and at quantities of 5 my cost is $360. I made a minor change to one part that shouldn't have been a big deal and the price went up nearly $50 for that one part. I left an email to see why. For this other shop I put together target pricing I need to hit. I'll see what they say.

[JAubin]

Sounds like they underestimated a process time/cost and used the change to adjust it. Any chance you could laser cut some of the parts, and only machine the bearing bores? Just a thought, hope the pricing works out as I'm sure people would love this setup.

[redfogo]

So what are the overall improvements this provides? I'm guessing better shifting?

[Mechie3]

Just got pricing from the other shop and its better. Need to add it up still.

Redfogo: it does a couple things but the best benefit is when coupled with an mr2 type shifter that sends the cables straight back. I have only two bends in my cables and each bent is only about 45 degrees vs the factory setup that has a 180 and then a 90 which adds resistance and backlash. The FFR cables are about 15 feet long. The ones I have now are 7. The arm is also further inboard on the input shaft so you dont have the clearance issues the early kits had. There is some adjustability on the bell crank that allows you to modify the throw and/or the input effort. I think it's lighter than the steel FFR setup but not amazingly lighter. It's tighter up against the transmission, and it looks cool ;)

[redfogo]

Look forward to seeing what the sale price ends up being!

[HCP 65 COUPE]

Mechie3

I have a full machine shop and would be happy to quote your parts, PM me if your interested.

[EODTech87]

I like it and would love to have a set. Money is getting tight so the lower the better but I'll take one either way.

[Mulry]

I'm still interested in this setup. $250 would probably work.

[Newkitguy]

I'm cheap so the cheaper the better while you still get paid! its not a need to have but a nice to have. If i found an mr2 shifter setup for around 200 or 250 that would mean i'm putting around 500 into a shifter assembly at the 250 price point just a thought.

[Mechie3]

$200 for an MR2 shifter?!?! I think I paid $19 for mine. If people are spending that much for a shifter I should just make my billet version available. Dang!

I'm pretty sure I can come in at $250. Just waiting on one last quote.

[Mitch Wright]

$19.00, I got ripped off, I paid $25.00.
I would be interested in a set up at $250.00 which I think would really be a deal. Nice parts and I am sure they should sell for more.

[Newkitguy]

Hmm it seems I've read incorrectly after much research they can be found wayyy cheaper maybe I'm searching for the wrong shifter. 250 wouldn't be bad

[Mechie3]

I had been searching for them for a while after I got mine and they all seemed to have jumped to $40. Maybe the sudden demand and limited supply sellers have been asking for more? I did a quick search. Cheapest I saw was $150 for USDM and $275 for JDM. I should look at my billet setup again.

Here's a pic I just took that shows the latest revision of the parts. You can see a couple of the other arms sitting on the battery.
http://i.imgur.com/xDMTtkU.jpg

[redfogo]

If you want mr2 shifters go to mr2oc.com. I'm a long time member and long time mr2 owner. I have seen these go from free -50max most are 20shipped. Don't pay more then 50 or your getting ripped off. Everyone wants the 93+ shifters. 85-92 mr2 shifters are all the same and are stupid easy to get ahold of. Most just throw them away as no one wants the old ones since the 93+ are shorter shifter that is OEM. Loads of venders on there that would love to sell you a shifter.


If anyone needs info on some USA mr2 parts sellers let me know I know a few. You may need an mr2oc.com account though. eBay mr2 prices are the worst and are stupid high. Most mr2 owners never buy used parts of eBay because of the poor pricing compared to the forums.

[Newkitguy]

What parts of the shifter are you guys getting for the mr2 is just a bare shifter enough?

[Blitzkrieg]

If you can make it work for the VCP billet shifter I will take one.

[Hindsight]

What parts of the shifter are you guys getting for the mr2 is just a bare shifter enough?

Yes, that's what you need.

[Blwalker105]

Sign me up Craig!

[flynntuna]

If you want mr2 shifters go to mr2oc.com. I'm a long time member and long time mr2 owner. I have seen these go from free -50max most are 20shipped. Don't pay more then 50 or your getting ripped off. Everyone wants the 93+ shifters. 85-92 mr2 shifters are all the same and are stupid easy to get ahold of. Most just throw them away as no one wants the old ones since the 93+ are shorter shifter that is OEM. Loads of venders on there that would love to sell you a shifter.


If anyone needs info on some USA mr2 parts sellers let me know I know a few. You may need an mr2oc.com account though. eBay mr2 prices are the worst and are stupid high. Most mr2 owners never buy used parts of eBay because of the poor pricing compared to the forums.

I got mine at the local pick yard. $12.92. 😀

[Hindsight]

As an FYI for everyone: The shifter assembly has a total of 4 plastic (or nylon) bushings in it. Two of them are the same (sleeves) that go into the shifter bell-crank where the hinge pin it rides on goes through, then there is a big one for the ball at the base of the shifter, and then a smaller one where the shifter rod goes into the bell crank.

The larger bushing for the ball is very expensive (~$65), the other two are just a couple bucks each. The two bushings that attach to the shift rod just pull off. It's a bit hard but you can do it with your bare hands. Just push them as far as they will go one way, and then keep pushing and they will pop off.

The sleeves in the bell crank can be tougher to get out. I found a 13mm drill bit was the right size to free these bushings from the bell crank.

IMHO this is the best lubricant for plastics/nylon/glass and even good for some metal applications: http://www.amazon.com/AGS-SG8-Lubricant/dp/B000KXLR5E It won't harm plastics and has the right properties to provide lasting lubrication. I'm pretty sure this is what OEMs use on shift bushings, foot pedal pins, and the like.

Last point I will make is that the shift bushings on the MR2 shifter I picked up used were in remarkably good shape for their age. Aside from some discoloration, they didn't really show any obvious wear. I probably didn't have to replace them (and you may not either).

[65 Cobra Dude]

Craig,

Definitely interested as long as it will work with FFR's optional snhidter.

Thx,

Henry

[Newkitguy]

Well picked up the mr2 shifter so I'd be interested in this

[SnyderJD]

Looks like a great part! I opted for the VCP shifter. so I guess that makes me out.

[redfogo]

Any updates on this?

[Pearldrummer7]

You know I'm in for one, Craig!

[Mechie3]

Still waiting on the last quote.

[Mechie3]

It should work with FFR's optional shifter.

Playing with a few things to make it work with the VCP shifter but it's getting a little messy and not as compact. If you ran the one shifter cable forward instead of straight back it would work, but you'd likely lose a bit of shifter feel (which is the whole reason to run the cables straight back). Still going to look at a few things but it's not a priority at this point.

[Mechie3]

Got the last quote in. Need to double check my BOM's and then I can figure out actual pricing.

[Newkitguy]

def let us know!

[Canadian818]

Haven't been on the forums for a month, and the first post I read is going to cost me money! Let us know when you're ready, put me on the list.

[Flamshackle]

Got the last quote in. Need to double check my BOM's and then I can figure out actual pricing.

PLEASE get the pricing and manufacturing done before the rest of the glass shipment arrives. I would LOVE to get this for my kit but my kit is ready to ship as soon as glass lands.

Keep us posted.

[Mechie3]

Ok. Here is what pricing and levels look like. One thing I learned from the shop is that when milling parts they don't keep much stock on hand. They buy stock in 12' sections. You pay for the entire piece whether you need 1' or need all 12'. Thus, pricing for small quantities tends to be inflated as you're dividing a 12' piece of aluminum cost over 5 parts. With 10 parts you cut the material in half so pricing drops pretty quick. You'll see that reflected below. My cost for per assembly @ qty 5 is actually higher than my proposed selling price for qty 10.

# of people: Cost
5: $365
10: $280
15: $255

What you would get:
Base plate
Cable mounting plate
Bell crank with pressed in bearing
Selector arm (mounts to transmission input shaft)
Red anodized aluminum rod ends
Aluminum connecting rods
Aluminum Spacer for base plate
Stainless spacer for bearing
Stainless Hardware and nuts

If there's enough interest still I'll start a group buy thread.

[Flamshackle]

YES! count me in... start group buy thread

[stebru84]

Put me on the list

[Newkitguy]

I'd be interested in the 10-15 members area I don't think I could swing the 0-10 cost.

[Mechie3]

Yeah, unfortunately when you buy things in such small quantities pricing sucks. I've got a couple people that are "yes" in the 10+ range. I'll start the actual group buy thread soon when I have a good pic of all the components laid out.

[redfogo]

I am also a yes in the 10 range.

[brian b 36]

craig did you get it to work with the vcp shifter if so I'm in brian

[Mechie3]

No. Not yet. Best case one part needs to be redesigned. Worst case four.

[Mechie3]

So.......


Who wants to be a product tester? Original tester is out due to non running status.

Cost: TBD, but essentially cost of materials and shipping (no labor or machine time) so it's much cheaper (basically what it would cost you to build your own without a cnc).

Requirements:
Must have the FFR plastic shifter or be able to swap back to the FFR shifter for testing.

Must be at Go Kart stage or later.

Must be able to install within one week and go for a test drive.

If more than one person is interested and meets the criteria then I'll pull a name from a hat.

[Mechie3]

I'd you have the FFR optional shifter using FFR cables that is ok too.

[Mechie3]

This photo demonstrates the challenge for the bell crank to work with the VCP shifter (or any shifter that flips the rotate action).

In the standard config, there is just enough height from the arm on the input shaft to the output of the bell crank for two rod ends to fit nearly end to end. If this distance stays the same and the bell crank flips then the input side of the bell rank gets much lower. To reach this with the cables I need to go at a downward angle. If I went straight the cables get too close to the CV on the transmission. I can play with the angles of the bell crank as far as the default rest position to try and find a better way. The current cable mounting plate angles upwards to match the angle of the transmission input shaft. Making one mounting plate point up and one point down means the base plate now gets more complex or the cable mounting plate(s) get more complex.

http://i.imgur.com/rvZUkdZ.jpg