My Thoughts as we approach June

[JRL]

OK I have looked at and mulled over the designs presented to date and conclude the following.

The 818 is NOT intended to be a daily driver. Adding a roof or AC sounds nice but in reality building a daily driver for $15,000 is simply not realistic. A roof would keep you dry from above but to be a true daily driver you need so much more. How many Roadsters are daily drivers?

Keeping the cost, weight and build simplicity within the parameters established by FFR many of the designs (as good as they are) will not work.

If the 818 is too follow the FFR Roadster and in a sense replace that legend as the next FFR fun car it needs to stay close to the Roadster DNA.

The 818 needs to be a car that allows the builder to complete it as he or she sees fit. Customizing and building it your way is the ticket to a successful product.

Of all of the designs submitted only one follows the DNA of the roadster. That design was submitted by Sam Pourbehi (April 8 week 6 winner). Do I like everything about the design - no - but it does offer the key ingredients. Simplicity - lightness - good looks - versatility. With a few tweaks (primarily the front) Sam's design nails what I think FFR had in mind when they started this project.

Want a fun good looking street legal car - bang there it is. Want a dedicated track car (like the Spec Racer) bang there it is. Want a mix of the two - bang there it is.

Where have I gone astray?

1955

1956

[Niburu]

I still like Xabiers design more.
Simply put if this car can't match up to the livability of my 90 Miata (no AC or powersteering) which I can easily daily right now, then Factory 5 won't see any of my money for awhile.

[JRL]

Niburu I too like many of the designs we have seen but the fact remains - simplicity - light weight - low cost - mass appeal - are all major factors. Folks wanting an exotic looking daily driver with all of the creature comforts are missing the parameters established by FFR.

I'm not trying to put a damper on the contest or knock any of the designs - simply injecting some reality into the equation. If folks want a daily driver what is required? With each add on you add cost, complexity and weight. With literally hundreds of options for daily drivers to choose from why try and force a light weight low cost kit car into that market. The Roadster has been a huge success and it was never intended as a daily driver.

[GUNS]

I completely agree with everything that JRL has said. I would like a roof option because we all know that track days don't cancel for rain, but it is not a deal breaker for me. There are many great designs out there right now, but I feel that ScottyB's recent design would fit the bill perfectly.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o193/bradfosk06/Factory%20Five/Factory-Five-818-Side-View.jpg

The next few weeks are definitely going to be interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing exactly FF is going to go with this.

[Silvertop]

Where have you gone astray?.......

Although the Week 6 co-winner you like is very neat and sexy looking (reminiscent of the Can-Am cars of the 70's), and could doubtless be built within FFR's price point of 15K, I believe the car would have very limited appeal.

I wouldn't spend my money for something that I can only take out on sunny days, and without checking the weather forecast even for that. For me the vehicle must have a top (soft or hard), with at least a rudimentary window system to keep most of the weather on the outside.

As nifty as this car is, I believe that selection by FFR would result in dramatically lower sales.

Like Niburu, I also like Xabier's design, along with a few others. Whether or not FFR can make these more elaborate designs fit their price point is another question.

I only know what it will take to get me to open my checkbook.

[PhyrraM]

Sam's car is just "too much" for me. I like Xabier's and ScottyB's, with a slight tip to ScottyB.

I agree, alot of what is asked for in these forums is either A) option territory, or B) simply asking too much for the goals.

[D2W]

I agree that most of the designs are well beyond the original intent of the project. The real problem however is what everyone is expecting in a finished product. Roll up windows/full HVAC/complete interior, a car that is as comfortable as any daily driver sports car you can drive off a lot. FFR's 33 has most of these items available but at a lot higher cost than 10K. I believe what will end up being offered is a much simpler car. Hopefully with the options of a top and some kind of side window protection. That would be good enough for me to be a semi daily driver. If you are expecting more than that I have a feeling you are going to be dissapointed.

As far as buildable designs, I like Arif's white car. Simple and good looking.

[JRL]

D2W I liked Arif's design too. I'm also relieved to read that I am not standing alone with my thoughts and expectations of how 818 will turn out.

[Niburu]

Niburu I too like many of the designs we have seen but the fact remains - simplicity - light weight - low cost - mass appeal - are all major factors. Folks wanting an exotic looking daily driver with all of the creature comforts are missing the parameters established by FFR.


who's asking for all the creature comforts?
as an example I pointed out my 1990 Miata
it has no AC, it has no powersteering, no power mirrors, no stereo, hell it doesn't even have an interior anymore
and I have and could still drive it as a daily

I see no reason why a simple roadster with an attachable top (for which I'd certainly be willing to pay extra) couldn't be driven every day.

FFR has not given any clear intentions of WHAT the car is intended for, I believe that should be left up to the individual builder.

[JRL]

Who's asking for creature comforts - read the threads and you will find your answer.

I get it - your Miata is an all weather car. Your Miata also cost (when new) nearly twice the entry price of the 818. Tens of Millions of dollars was spent designing and building your Miata. Using your Miata as an example is simply not apples to apples. The FFR Roadster even when fitted with a top is hardly an all weather car - granted it will get you home in a rain storm but your shoes will likely be wet.

FFR has indeed offered their intention - offer a light - cost effective - build it yourself high performance "true sports car".

This is cut from the FFR Website:

"The design goal behind this car is very straightforward, the car must be simple, lightweight, affordable, and easy to build in countries around the world. The emphasis will be on handling and driving fun rather than on the 200 mph exotic or the everyday commuter. The majority of the cars we sell are street cars and this will not be an exception, so full lighting, covered wheels, and safety items will all be incorporated but not much beyond that in terms of luxury type stuff. To keep things simple this will be an elemental performance based street car first but with a roll bar/structure sufficient for track days. The suspension is a double A-arm/multilink with Koni coil-overs on all corners (we will not use the Subaru struts). In terms of what we will use from the Subaru, the goal is everything possible that doesn't compromise the design goal. We won't utilize the unibody but at this point every other piece is fair game (ok, probably not the headliner either).

The design competition is exciting and it is WIDE OPEN. The likely design due to the price targets will be a roadster, but all designs (coupe, targa, dedicated track car, etc.) are encouraged and have an equal chance of winning."

[Niburu]

Who's asking for creature comforts - read the threads and you will find your answer.

no, in this thread is what I meant, sorry for lack of clarity on my part



I get it - your Miata is an all weather car. Your Miata also cost (when new) nearly twice the entry price of the 818. Tens of Millions of dollars was spent designing and building your Miata.

Not so much.
The MSRP on a new Miata in 1990 was in the $17K range - adjusted for inflation brings it to $9950
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

Millions were spent on the engineering for the donor cars drivetrain and whatever other bits we'll need that we're taking for the 818 build.



Using your Miata as an example is simply not apples to apples. The FFR Roadster even when fitted with a top is hardly an all weather car - granted it will get you home in a rain storm but your shoes will likely be wet.

but I'm not buying a Roadster now am I, I am looking at this yet to be named new car FFR is putting out next year




The emphasis will be on handling and driving fun rather than on the 200 mph exotic or the everyday commuter. The majority of the cars we sell are street cars and this will not be an exception, so full lighting, covered wheels, and safety items will all be incorporated but not much beyond that in terms of luxury type stuff. To keep things simple this will be an elemental performance based street car first but with a roll bar/structure sufficient for track days. The design competition is exciting and it is WIDE OPEN. The likely design due to the price targets will be a roadster, but all designs (coupe, targa, dedicated track car, etc.) are encouraged and have an equal chance of winning."

JRL I am not posting this just to be contrary, I just think you're off the mark abit.
I'm not saying the 818 should be designed as an everyday commuter, but rather like my Miata (yet again I know) something I could drive eveyday.
The average person would not make this choice but I would, as I think many other car enthusiast would.
If I wanted a sunny day only track toy I'd be looking at a different car.

[Gary in NJ]

I think that clip from the FFR website says it all.

[JRL]

Never mind Niburu................

[Niburu]

please see revised post

[JRL]

Niburu I didn't perceive your comments as contrary just a bit off base.

We are both interpreting the FFR guidelines to suit our perception of what the 818 will be. My perception is based on the statement directly from FFR. "The emphasis will be on handling and driving fun rather than on the 200 mph exotic or the everyday commuter".

In my mind a daily driver is something that can be used in any weather and be capable of transporting me for a long weekend (luggage for two) involving hundreds of miles.

Sealing one of the FFR space frame / aluminum panel cars for rainy weather is a bit of a challenge when keeping the stated 818 program in mind. Production cars cost a kings ransom and require years of development to attain daily driver all weather status. Again not an argument on my part but rather a statement of fact.

Either way it will be fun watching this car evolve.

[thebeerbaron]

-withdrawn-

FWIW, the inflation calculation was way off - $17000 in 1990 dollars is about $28000 today, someone went in the wrong direction!

[armstrom]

I think the reality of where this car needs to be in order to be successful lies somewhere in the middle. First of all, a roadster does not mean no roof! It means no FIXED roof. Hell, name me a production roadster that does NOT have a roof of some kind? (Note: I'm sure there are some, but there are more "roadsters" with roofs than without!) A roof of some kind, even if it's a simple bikini top stretched between the top of the windshield and the rollbar, would suffice. Something along the lines of the roof provided by the Porsche boxter spider ( see image here: http://cartomotive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Porsche-Boxster_Spyder_rear_angle_door_roof-640x480.jpg ) I don't think roll-up windows are necessary either. As long as I can velcro, zipper or otherwise attach some clear plastic between the doors and the roof, I'm happy.

Also, a car doesn't HAVE to include any of these things to be a daily driver. I live in central Florida where we get lots of rain and hot weather. Most days I see a guy driving a yellow dune buggy to work! Also, we have at least three people in the office who drive a motorcycle to work EVERY DAY. Now, does everyone want that lifestyle? No, but the biggest stumbling block to getting people to accept a car without all the creature comforts of a full production car HAS to be a roof. I can deal with no AC, I can deal with no sound insulation, I can deal with no power windows, no cup holders, ash trays, solid-brass *** scratchers and twin spittoons... But without a roof? Nope, gotta have it... even the most basic, even at an additional cost. If I want to drive around with no way to stay dry I'll buy a motorcycle, or a trike, or an exocar. Not a full-bodied sports car like we're all expecting out of the 818. Would people buy the 818 if they had no option for a roof at all (short of a custom job)?? Sure, someone would... but not nearly as many as would buy it if they could attach a roof. No matter how basic. And when it comes down to it, more customers = more money for FFR and a bigger community of owners. Better all around. :)

Just my two cents.
-Matt

[JRL]

Thank you Beerbaron - I noticed the wrong direction too.

[StatGSR]

I think the reality of where this car needs to be in order to be successful lies somewhere in the middle. First of all, a roadster does not mean no roof! It means no FIXED roof. Hell, name me a production roadster that does NOT have a roof of some kind? (Note: I'm sure there are some, but there are more "roadsters" with roofs than without!) A roof of some kind, even if it's a simple bikini top stretched between the top of the windshield and the rollbar, would suffice. Something along the lines of the roof provided by the Porsche boxter spider ( see image here: http://cartomotive.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Porsche-Boxster_Spyder_rear_angle_door_roof-640x480.jpg ) I don't think roll-up windows are necessary either. As long as I can velcro, zipper or otherwise attach some clear plastic between the doors and the roof, I'm happy.

Also, a car doesn't HAVE to include any of these things to be a daily driver. I live in central Florida where we get lots of rain and hot weather. Most days I see a guy driving a yellow dune buggy to work! Also, we have at least three people in the office who drive a motorcycle to work EVERY DAY. Now, does everyone want that lifestyle? No, but the biggest stumbling block to getting people to accept a car without all the creature comforts of a full production car HAS to be a roof. I can deal with no AC, I can deal with no sound insulation, I can deal with no power windows, no cup holders, ash trays, solid-brass *** scratchers and twin spittoons... But without a roof? Nope, gotta have it... even the most basic, even at an additional cost. If I want to drive around with no way to stay dry I'll buy a motorcycle, or a trike, or an exocar. Not a full-bodied sports car like we're all expecting out of the 818. Would people buy the 818 if they had no option for a roof at all (short of a custom job)?? Sure, someone would... but not nearly as many as would buy it if they could attach a roof. No matter how basic. And when it comes down to it, more customers = more money for FFR and a bigger community of owners. Better all around. :)

Just my two cents.
-Matt

Couldn't have said it better. seriously, if you don't want a roof what are you waiting around for? there are several exo's /track cars available at reasonable prices right now, why bother waiting for FF to finish theirs?

What i really don't understand is why do some of you guys get so worked up because some of us just request a piece of tarp to strap in over our heads.... and as Matt mentioned, most roadsters still have (removable) roofs. i don't think i have seen anyone once say that they wanted the 818 to be a coupe?

[JRL]

Seriously if you want a roof what are you waiting around for? There are several cars with roofs (even windows) available at reasonable prices right now, why bother waiting for FF to finish theirs?

[StatGSR]

there are MR kit cars with roofs that i can build for 15-20K that can be powered by suby or honda drive trains? please point me in that direction?

[2KWIK4U]

The FFR roadster I built had heat, defrost, stereo, and power steering when I was done and I also missed my AC. There are some comforts I just don't want to do without. With that said the main reason I sold the car shortly after I finished it was because of a lack of a functional roof. I too think it will be necessary for some kind of roof, removable or fixed, to be part of the package somehow to be of worldly appeal. Weather, is the only thing we really can't control anywhere.

A daily driver means different things to each of us, but for me, driving in some level of comfort with a big smile and tunes blaring, any time rain or shine, is what it means for me.

[JRL]

GSR it was a joke - a play on words if you will.

Have you missed ALL of the thread comments stating that if the 818 has no roof it is a no-go or no windows or no AC or doesn't look like an exotic blah blah blah................

My whole point in starting this thread was to follow what FF had said - the car will most likely be a ROADSTER - not my position but FF's position. If you read ALL of the comments (I have) you will see a wish list that is IMPOSSIBLE to meet given the price point not to mention contrary to what FF has said.

I'm not all worked up about it but I do get annoyed when folks shoot the messenger.

I have a tarp in the garage I will sell cheap if you want something to pull over your head.

[PhyrraM]

I don't think many are specifically asking for no roof or lack of extras. I think some of us are just questioning what should take precidence, the stated goals of budget and weight or the desires of forum posters.

I'm *guessing* that even a rudimentary top and side curtains will be hard to do without moving from the target goals. And, judging by reading all the posts asking designers to design with a top in mind, a simple, rudimentary top will likely not be well recieved either.

On a purely personal level - I would rather see a well done and detailed simple car rather than a car with a lot of poorly engineered, poorly executed, ill fitting or ugly 'features'. For example: Why bother with weather proofing, if it doesn't actually seal the car?

Now, If I'm totally off base and FFR CAN actually deliver a well executed closed/convertable car with proper and effective weather sealing *and* also meet the stated goals - So much the better, I'm certainly not going to boycott it.

[JRL]

PhyrraM - you are one of the enlightened ones - they are few and far between on the 818.

I will gladly walk out on the limb and state FF (actually no one) can produce a truly weather proof car that weighs 2000 #'s and can be built for $15,000 or less. It may be fun to think about doing it but it is nothing more than mental gymnastics.

[olpro]

I could see a basic vehicle with a stock windshield & wipers but hop-over sides (instead of doors) meeting the target cost and weight. An optional “roof”, probably a gull wing type including the side glass (actually side PLASTIC), could be had for maybe $1000 additional.
No actual doors, certainly no roll down side windows, but at least rudimentary weather protection and LOCKABLE (a good thing) while you are at lunch.

[JRL]

I should have added "with the forum wish list" after $15,000 or less.

If we take the Roadster which cost $19,990 what do you delete or salvage from the donor to get to $9,990? I just can't see meeting half of the expectations / wish list of many and meeting the price point.

I hope I'm proven wrong but..........

I can see a step over entry open roadster (I think this is a given based on the chassis schematic we have seen) that utilizes a very large portion of the donor car to include all of the mechanicals, seats, steering, instruments, fuel system, a cannibalized wiring harness, headlights, tail lights possibly even the windshield.

[ScottKoschwitz]

I agree that the car has to have some sort of basic weather protection, otherwise you'll severely limit the marketability. Otherwise, you'll essentially have a Mk4 Roadster for the tuner crowd.

Coincidentally enough, I came across this contest while researching kit cars, so I can at least provide my perspective as a potential buyer. I've always wanted a Lotus Elise since I first saw one in England in 2000. Well, I concluded that is unlikely to happen, so I started researching kits cars, from Caterham, to a Miata-based Westfield, the Fisher Fury, and then I remembered Factory Five. I started checking out the Mk4 Roadster -- I'm not really a muscle-car guy, but it's cool looking, and could be a lot of fun. But what if there's a chance of rain for that day you want to drive it up to Lime Rock for the vintage races? Well, I should just play it safe, and take the GTI. Do I really want to be buffeted by the wind the whole ride up on the highway? No, so take the GTI.

This is the fundamental hurdle I see with the mass marketability (I use "mass marketability" in the sense relative to kit cars) for a car with no rudimentary, much less fundamental, weather protection. This is a particular concern for a car intended to be a world car: weather is just as much an issue, if not more so, in Europe or South America as it is in the Northeast U.S. And the concern is not just with rain; with the convertible I once owned, it was nice to put up the top to protect myself from the sun on a hot summer day or from the wind. Even the Lotus 7-based kits have the option of a snap-on roof if it rains. It doesn't look pretty, it probably takes minutes to put on, and it probably leaks, but it will keep you dry when necessary. The simple provision for a just-in-case soft or hard roof is a significant element in the potential marketability of a car like this.

I can't see a full open-top car, like Tim Brewster's April 15 design or Matthew Konich's May 13 design, incorporating any kind of roof within the target base price or even as an option. I don't expect this car to have a fully retractable softtop like a Miata, Boxter, or S2000. If the car is going to have some kind of roof, I think it needs to be a targa-like design, like Xabier's March 11 design, Team KT's March 25 design, or an Elise. Hell, the Elise top is a simple, quality piece. Why not just incorporate that roof into the winning design?

[Ks2]

if it were me picking the design, i would start with a car that had a full roof, then when you order make the T-top, targa, convertable, no roof or what have you optional and adjust the price accordingly. the other factory five cars all have optional extras i see few reasons why the choice of roof (or lack thereof) couldnt also be an option

[JRL]

If you have a roof then you will need doors - unless I have missed something the original concept chassis doesn't have provisions for doors.

Has the chassis been updated to include doors?

[olpro]

A gullwing door/roof will work without conventional doors.

[JRL]

With a gull-wing roof / door you would still have a significant step over which is something more than a few have nixed.

Bottom line FF will do what they think will sell the most cars. With the success they have enjoyed with the Roadster I doubt they will be influenced to make the car a coupe.

We can beat this mule to death but I doubt we will change their mind. I think they are set with a base car being open with a step over entry - just a hunch that may be totally off base.

[MikeK]

Sam's car is just "too much" for me. I like Xabier's and ScottyB's, with a slight tip to ScottyB.

I agree, alot of what is asked for in these forums is either A) option territory, or B) simply asking too much for the goals.

I'm with you on this one, would build either one of these cars. Being oldschool, also leaning a little more toward ScottyB's

[olpro]

With a gull-wing roof / door you would still have a significant step over which is something more than a few have nixed.
The step over is certainly an issue with any doorless concept but whether it has a gull-wing roof/door or not doesn't change the entry-exit situation.

[Vman7]

Well after seeing the prototype chassis on the "What's New" Join Us! 14th Annual Open House Details page. FFR said "We will have the winning submissions on display along with the 818 prototype chassis."

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/showevent/openhouse/2011/images/818.jpg

I am having real second thoughts about submitting a design, because if the real chassis is to be anything like the prototype, FFR is looking for a spyder type car without doors from what I can tell. And the big question is say you don't win or anything, but yet your design is worth doing, but maybe by yourself or another company. You Can't since the rules say that once you send in a design it becomes the property of FFR.

Like my Dad always used to tell me "make sure you have it in writing or a contract".

Just sayin', something to think about.

But who knows, I will wait and see by the end of the month if I am going to submit my design or not.

[Someday I Suppose]

IMHO, I think Dave and Jim's earlier comments pretty well establish it will most likely be a roadster first, and given the size of the R&D department at Factory Five, I can't blame them for wanting to keep to the initial mantra of 1500 lbs 2 seat roadster that handles great and is fun to drive at a $10K kit price. I don't begrudge anyone who wants more in the car, and I am sure there will be options down the road, if not from Factory Five, certainly from aftermarket support.

As a roadster owner, having a targa top would greatly enhance my desire to own one, and certainly increases the size of the market.

I think Factory Five is well aware of that fact as well, but I think they see the 818 as a chance to own and dominate the entry level price point for kit cars.

-Scott

[Silvertop]

If you have a roof then you will need doors - unless I have missed something the original concept chassis doesn't have provisions for doors.

Has the chassis been updated to include doors?

If the final chassis design is executed as currently drawn, I think you are quite correct. There will be no doors, which means there also will be no roof of any type, whether built-in to the price point or even as an extra-cost option. It will be a Roadster, and that is all that it can ever be, at least on that chassis.

It also means that virtually every Weekly Winner to date is spitting into the wind. As designed, the bodies they have drawn won't qualify for the chassis.

I really hope it doesn't ultimately shake out that way. I really, really, really want to build one of these. But I need doors, and a sill I can step over without engaging in gymnastics, and I need some kind of a top, even if I have to pay extra for it.

I guess we will know in a few more weeks.................

[PhyrraM]

I really, really, really want to build one of these. But I need doors, ...., and I need .....

So what you are saying is that your not sure if you "really, really, really want to build one of these". Because "one of these" is not defined yet.

[Hiryu]

Well after seeing the prototype chassis on the "What's New" Join Us! 14th Annual Open House Details page. FFR said "We will have the winning submissions on display along with the 818 prototype chassis."

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/showevent/openhouse/2011/images/818.jpg

I am having real second thoughts about submitting a design, because if the real chassis is to be anything like the prototype, FFR is looking for a spyder type car without doors from what I can tell. And the big question is say you don't win or anything, but yet your design is worth doing, but maybe by yourself or another company. You Can't since the rules say that once you send in a design it becomes the property of FFR.

Like my Dad always used to tell me "make sure you have it in writing or a contract".

Just sayin', something to think about.

But who knows, I will wait and see by the end of the month if I am going to submit my design or not.

I was worried about the same thing from the beginning, but when I asked Dave about FFR owning everything I send to them, he replied: "Anything we dont use is all yours and we're not selling anything or doing anything like that." So I'd like to think you should be good either way...But yeah, I understand your concern.

[Silvertop]

So what you are saying is that your not sure if you "really, really, really want to build one of these". Because "one of these" is not defined yet.

Pretty much. For clarity, the "one of these" I refer to would include doors, an optional top of some type, and some kind of window system. That, and a body shape that I like. None of which, as you point out, has been defined as of yet. I get it that FFR may not be able to provide what I want, which will mean that I may not be able to be a customer for this exciting new product. And ultimately, if it turns out that way, that will have to be OK. As you pointed out in a previous post, it is better to build a "well-done and detailed simple car rather than one with a lot of poorly engineered.....features". I appreciate that. And I don't see FFR compromising quality in an effort to provide lots of "stuff", nor should they. In any event, they will not be able to please everybody, no matter what they decide to do.


But pending a decision, I can hope that the minimum features needed for me to become a buyer will make it into the final design. Because, if they do, it is virtually a lead-pipe cinch that I'll be one. In any event, there's nothing wrong with lobbying a little. The FFR guys read this forum too................

I guess we will have a better idea of where this is going on June 14.

[David]

I completely agree with everything that JRL has said. I would like a roof option because we all know that track days don't cancel for rain, but it is not a deal breaker for me. There are many great designs out there right now, but I feel that ScottyB's recent design would fit the bill perfectly.

http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o193/bradfosk06/Factory%20Five/Factory-Five-818-Side-View.jpg

The next few weeks are definitely going to be interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing exactly FF is going to go with this.

So far this is the only design that I really really like for this car. It could easily be adapted for some sort of targa style fold up top(like an older 911), or fiberglass top and the shape is agressive but not over the top. I could see buying this car, the others not so much.... Picking the right design is going to be critical to this cars success in the market IMHO.

Despite the complexity, the car needs doors... Very few wives will be willing to crawl over a door sill to get in and out of it. :D

David

[Silvertop]

So far this is the only design that I really really like for this car. It could easily be adapted for some sort of targa style fold up top(like an older 911), or fiberglass top and the shape is agressive but not over the top. ............ Picking the right design is going to be critical to this cars success in the market IMHO.

Despite the complexity, the car needs doors... Very few wives will be willing to crawl over a door sill to get in and out of it. :D

David

I like the ScottyB design too. I'd buy it in a heartbeat. I'm betting that it comes up as the next Weekly Winner.

Agreed that picking the right design is going to be critical to market success, and your comment about wives climbing over door sills is right on the money. Here's hoping they can figure out a way build something like this within the constraints of their other goals.

[Rotr8]

I was worried about the same thing from the beginning, but when I asked Dave about FFR owning everything I send to them, he replied: "Anything we dont use is all yours and we're not selling anything or doing anything like that." So I'd like to think you should be good either way...But yeah, I understand your concern.

wow, wish that was stated up front, might actually have submitted something...

[JRL]

I based all of my thoughts on the original chassis pictures FF provided. That chassis precluded a car with a roof because it had no provision for doors. That being said there has been nothing released from FF indicating that they have ignored the wishes of many and possibly redesigned the chassis to accommodate doors which would then allow some sort of roof.

The largest hurdle to jump is the price point and how a very different chassis (doors) would impact the final cost.

I keep going back to the Roadster (or the Coupe) as a base point in price because that is a pretty simple and very successful design. Then I look at what could be eliminated from the Roadster (or Coupe) to get a price point equal to 1/2 of either. The only way is to design a very basic no frills car - no doors - no windows - no creature comforts - no roof - simple body molds etc.

[StatGSR]

still confused why people think the car cant have doors since there is a diagonal crossbar in the chassis... have any of you guys seen a car with a roll cage before?? people still manage to get in and out of the door with all sorts of bars in the way...

the diagonal bar shown in the chassis would be no worse than this....
http://www.mustang-parts.org/news/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/mustang-roll-bar.jpg

[JRL]

That bar is removable. That bar is NOT a structural element of the car.

[StatGSR]

that bar is removable, but you don't pull it out every time you get in and out of the car. either way it was just an example of the typical 6 pt forward bar location that plenty of people deal with. sorry i didn't spend 10 minutes looking for the perfect picture to steal off the internet...

http://www.cartuningpoint.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/finished_cage.338162414_std.jpg

[thebeerbaron]

I think in another thread someone suggested comparing the 818 frame to the '33 Hot Rod frame. They look very similar in the door area, and the 33 manages to have opening doors.

Frankly, I'm buckling down and finishing my design competition entry. It's just a couple weeks until a lot of these questions are going to be answered and I'm burnt out on debating questions someone, somewhere, already knows the answer to.

[StatGSR]

keep in mind the donor car will be have hinges, handles, and latches that can be reused...

[D2W]

I based all of my thoughts on the original chassis pictures FF provided. That chassis precluded a car with a roof because it had no provision for doors. That being said there has been nothing released from FF indicating that they have ignored the wishes of many and possibly redesigned the chassis to accommodate doors which would then allow some sort of roof.

The largest hurdle to jump is the price point and how a very different chassis (doors) would impact the final cost.

I keep going back to the Roadster (or the Coupe) as a base point in price because that is a pretty simple and very successful design. Then I look at what could be eliminated from the Roadster (or Coupe) to get a price point equal to 1/2 of either. The only way is to design a very basic no frills car - no doors - no windows - no creature comforts - no roof - simple body molds etc.

One way I think they can eliminate cost on the 818 vs the roadster is in body construction. They currently have a ton of labor involved in making the body. Less trimming, no two piece parts that have to be bonded together later, ect. Other than that this car is going to be plain jane simple.

Olpro, I suggested the no door/step over sill with a gull wing top ages ago. Nobody seemed too excited about it, but I think it would be easier to get into than a car with a roof and doors. I actually would prefer the car this way, one less set of panel gaps to align, (probably the hardest to get right).

[Oppenheimer]

1. In my mind a daily driver is ....

2. I will gladly walk out on the limb and state FF (actually no one) can produce a truly weather proof car that weighs 2000 #'s and can be built for $15,000 or less. It may be fun to think about doing it but it is nothing more than mental gymnastics.

1. A DD means something very different to me. An FFR Roadster, with some sort of top that didn't require assembling a tent, with some sort of window that you could see out of, that didn't fog up hopelessly in a slight mist, would work as a 'DD' for me (not that I'd drive it in the winter months, it would be a warmer months DD). I suspect most here that are wishing for some DD capability are of similar outlook. They don't need creature comforts to DD it, and they would rather have a car they can drive a lot, rather than one they only get to drive very little.

2. I would agree with you. But I never noticed anyone on this forum ask for this. I did hear a lot of people wish for an 818 that offered options, optional options, optional options that not everyone would have to choose, and that wouldn't even be part of the base kit, and that if such optional options were selected, would result in a kit that cost more, weighed more and took longer to build for their having been chosen. Optional options that when _not_ optioned, would result in a kit that still met the original cost and weight goals. So that everyone that didn't want the optional options could be accommodated, simply by doing nothing (not selecting the optional options). That only those that were willing to live with the consequences of the optional options, of added weight, cost and build complexity, would be encumbered by them, by selecting the optional option(s) of their choice.

I know there are people that want a more elemental 818, that weighs the least an 818 can, costs the least an 818 can, etc. That the thought of burdening down what looks to be such an awesome performance car with roof & doors and windows is a ghastly thought. Well I don't think any of the wannatop crowd wants to see you not get YOUR 818, YOUR way. You would just not ADD these options to your build.

But I don't understand why so many that aren't interested in having a top (etc) are so dead set against that even being a possible option. Perhaps that is not your (and others who've expressed similar thoughts) intention, but that is how its coming across (at least to me).

I realize that FFR will build the best 818 they feasibly can, with the goal of selling as many as they can, and that for all the wishing, a top just may not be in the cards. But I think its our duty to let them know what we want, and are willing, and not willing, to buy. I wouldn't think someone that doesn't want a top would not buy this car if an optional top was offered.

[David Hodgkins]

Olpro, I suggested the no door/step over sill with a gull wing top ages ago. Nobody seemed too excited about it, but I think it would be easier to get into than a car with a roof and doors. I actually would prefer the car this way, one less set of panel gaps to align, (probably the hardest to get right).

IMO this isn't a feasable solution because when it rolls and ends up on it's roof (every model of track car flips sooner or later) how do you get out?

[JRL]

I think in another thread someone suggested comparing the 818 frame to the '33 Hot Rod frame. They look very similar in the door area, and the 33 manages to have opening doors.

Frankly, I'm buckling down and finishing my design competition entry. It's just a couple weeks until a lot of these questions are going to be answered and I'm burnt out on debating questions someone, somewhere, already knows the answer to.

Comparing the 33 frame and the proposed 818 frame is like comparing cheddar cheese with swiss cheese - they are both cheeses and that's about it.

Adding doors will add cost and complexity - no way around it.

With a $9900 price point I don't know what some of you guys expect.

Based on some of these comments and the wish list of others the Roadster should cost about $4995.

[Hiryu]

IMO this isn't a feasable solution because when it rolls and ends up on it's roof (every model of track car flips sooner or later) how do you get out?

On a somewhat related note, I always wondered what happened when you rolled and ended up on your roof in a car with scissor or gull-wing doors? Though I hear the MB SLS actually has explosive charges to discharge its doors when rolled over...I guess we could put a little C4 in the 818 to do the same...shouldn't cost too much, right? :)

[riptide motorsport]

Not often so much is known about so little.

[Oppenheimer]

Comparing the 33 frame and the proposed 818 frame is like comparing cheddar cheese with swiss cheese - they are both cheeses and that's about it.



Maybe swiss cheese and cottage cheese would make a better analogy, as swiss and cheddar could be interchangeable in many a cheese selection scenario (you want swiss or cheddar on your sandwhich? hmmm, let me think a moment...)

[JRL]

Riptide that made me chuckle - thanks.

[JRL]

Oppen I actually typed cottage first then thought it through. By the way I love cheese - with or without a top.

[readymix]

Comparing the 33 frame and the proposed 818 frame is like comparing cheddar cheese with swiss cheese - they are both cheeses and that's about it.

Adding doors will add cost and complexity - no way around it.

With a $9900 price point I don't know what some of you guys expect.

Based on some of these comments and the wish list of others the Roadster should cost about $4995.

The problem with your '33 comparison is that it doesn't use a single donor. You have to source the engine/tranny etc...but the entirety of the body, frame, suspension, etc... comes from the kit. Since FF has to provide all of that with the kit, the cost goes up. With the 818, you're going to have the benefit of not paying for wheels, tires, half the suspension parts, brakes, engine, tranny, electrical and wiring, and any hinges/panels or whatever else they decide to keep in the new design. The cost goes down when they don't have to engineer specialized parts for the specific application and instead turn to the donor car for most of them. That's why they set the 9,900 price point, because they know that with their frame and body and a few specialized parts, someone with a Subaru Impreza can cover the rest. Unlike the '33 where they have to provide you with everything except for the motor and transmission.

[Oppenheimer]

Oppen I actually typed cottage first then thought it through. By the way I love cheese - with or without a top.

Yes, cheese good. Melty, delicious cheese. Yum.

That 'Cottage' stuff has no business even being called cheese.

[D2W]

IMO this isn't a feasable solution because when it rolls and ends up on it's roof (every model of track car flips sooner or later) how do you get out?

Actually the solution is quite simple and kills two birds with one stone. FFR will engineer the body so cheaply that in the event of a crash or rollover it will tear completely off the frame so you can crawl right out:)

[JRL]

Ah............ readymix I never compared the 818 to the 33 - I compared it to the Roadster.

[PhyrraM]

One thing that may complicate matters is that in certain parts of the country/world if you add the ability to close the car, you also have to add the ability to use the air conditioner. For me, the two would go hand-in-hand. Not that I mind if the base car still hits budget.......

Of course, those are also the areas that a top, in general, is not needed.

[readymix]

Ah............ readymix I never compared the 818 to the 33 - I compared it to the Roadster.

Ok, so take the base roadster, 12,900. Add more minor components from the donor car to lower the cost of provided kit materials. And then factor in that the Roadster was originally released 15 or more years ago. They've likely improved their processes and streamlined their procedures. If the total man hours to manufacture go down, then the total cost goes down. When I first read the press release it almost sounded to me like FF was saying "ok, so we've got a handful of really great replica kits out there, and we released the GTM, a fully custom car. We've learned a ton from the experience and I think we can do a full single donor kit for under 10k this time around." Basing pricing of a new model on a model that was developed and produced over 15 years ago is dismissive of the abilities and competencies of Factory Five as a whole. It's like saying "Sorry, FF, you can't make a single donor kit for that price, because you are stuck in 1995, and you haven't learned a thing about how to manufacture cars and meet pricing goals."

[PhyrraM]

But FFR has learned lessons. The Roadster is on MK4, the 4th major revision and the kit is already LESS than it was when first released (adjusted dollars, of course).

Not to say they can't do it, but your post seems to indicate that the current roadster is still stuck at 15 years ago. It is not.

[readymix]

But FFR has learned lessons. The Roadster is on MK4, the 4th major revision and the kit is already LESS than it was when first released (adjusted dollars, of course).

Not to say they can't do it, but your post seems to indicate that the current roadster is still stuck at 15 years ago. It is not.

No, read it again, my point was exactly the opposite of what you inferred.. That they have and CAN lower the costs of production for a kit because they HAVE learned things in the past.

[JRL]

Ok readymix I'll bite.

After reading literally 100's of comments regarding the 818 I get the feeling folks are looking for a 7/8's scale GTM ,not a clone but the same amenities, roof, doors, windows, ability to add HVAC etc. So using your logic FF can do that for less than $10,000 because they have learned something. I'll type this slowly so you can comprehend - It can't be done!

Why some of you think just because the 818 will use a cheaper drive train than the GTM FF can make it for half the cost. I'm sorry but that is logic I cannot follow. I have read the arguments that we can use more of the donor and my question is what. Someone suggested using the door hinges, latches and knobs off the donor to save money - he must have been kidding. Why would you want to use a hinge designed to swing an 80 # door to swing a 15# door and how much money would it save.

Take a deep breath and go read what FF stated in the original design parameters. I posted the key elements of the press release back on page #1 post #10.

I'm not trying to rain on the parade simply hoping to get the expectations in line with reality. I see the 818 as a poorman's Radical and would likely be a buyer if that is the case. I already have a car and truck to drive.

[D2W]

Ok, so take the base roadster, 12,900. Add more minor components from the donor car to lower the cost of provided kit materials. And then factor in that the Roadster was originally released 15 or more years ago. They've likely improved their processes and streamlined their procedures. If the total man hours to manufacture go down, then the total cost goes down. When I first read the press release it almost sounded to me like FF was saying "ok, so we've got a handful of really great replica kits out there, and we released the GTM, a fully custom car. We've learned a ton from the experience and I think we can do a full single donor kit for under 10k this time around." Basing pricing of a new model on a model that was developed and produced over 15 years ago is dismissive of the abilities and competencies of Factory Five as a whole. It's like saying "Sorry, FF, you can't make a single donor kit for that price, because you are stuck in 1995, and you haven't learned a thing about how to manufacture cars and meet pricing goals."

I think the one thing your missing in the comparison is that the roadster base kit at 12,900 still needs a donor car utilizing a large # of parts from the mustang. If you don't want to use a donor you can buy all the parts new or buy the complete kit which is 19,900 plus and engine/tranny/wheels & tires. Can FFR use more parts from the donor? Probably, but not 3,000 worth of parts and still provide a lot of amenities.

Of course Riptide is right that we are all just voicing opinions. If FFR can pull a car with all the amenities of a cayman or elise out of their butt for 10K and a donor WRX I'm all over it:)

[thebeerbaron]

Deep breath everyone, deep breath. It's just a car, and it's one that doesn't even exist yet.

I'm a little shocked that my comparison of the door portion of the '33 frame to the same section of the 818 frame got turned into a comparison of cheeses. I think some critical reading and research skills were lost.

I don't have time to highlight the areas now but look at these two pictures I stole from the website. Look very carefully at the door area. It's not a perfect match, but you can see that there is significant step-over to the '33, and a good size (albeit not as large as the purported 818 frame) diagonal at the rear of the door, where the seat would be. The 818 has a good-sized step-over towards the front of the door, with a larger diagonal towards the rear. Not exactly the same, but similar enough for our purposes. Thus, since the '33 manages to have doors, I would assume that the similar parts of the 818 frame would not prevent the 818 from having doors.

As far as whether there should be doors, a power moon roof, brass *** scratchers, or whatever, I'm just going to be quiet and wait. My opinion is well documented in this forum and my design blog...

1986

1987

[D2W]

[QUOTE=thebeerbaron;19851]Deep breath everyone, deep breath. It's just a car, and it's one that doesn't even exist yet.QUOTE]

If it existed we wouldn't have any reason to throw around our opinions as fact and then argue it to death;)

[thebeerbaron]

If it existed we wouldn't have any reason to throw around our opinions as fact and then argue it to death;)

Y'all need some hobbies. :)

[PhyrraM]

Deep breath everyone, deep breath. It's just a car, and it's one that doesn't even exist yet.

If it existed we wouldn't have any reason to throw around our opinions as fact and then argue it to death;)

Yes, I'll add that 70% of my participation at this time is for casual/entertainment value. Mostly throwing out opinions and observations to pass the time. I promise not to take anything to heart until Open House. Then we can all start over again, just with a bit more focused information.....:cool:

[JRL]

I am retired and need mental stimulation.....................

[wjfawb0]

It's helping me to pass the time until the car is actually available. :D I've got to find something to worry about between work, changing diapers, and cutting grass.

[HealeyRick]

I think the most difficult part of the design brief is the introduction of practicality. Designing a car that will be primarily a track day vehicle is relatively easy (not for me,though, I have no design skills). If you have no concerns about weatherproofing, you design a Lotus 7 or an Ariel Atom and you're done. But no one has ever really successfully figured out how to make sure you don't freeze to death or drown while driving one of these cars in inclement weather. Take a look at the foul weather gear on a Lotus 7 or any British sports car. It's like erecting a teepee on your car. But if FFR only produces a car that can be driven on warm SoCal days, they are going to severely reduce their target audience. Take a look at how many Factory Five roadster owners want to fit hardtops to their cars to extend the driving season. I don't think any designer has come up with the perfect solution, but I still think that some type of removable Targa top is the best solution out there.

[GUNS]

For those of you saying that there can't be a roof. Reference the Ultima GTR Can Am:

http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/content/canamgallery/canam42.jpg
http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/content/canamgallery/canam18.jpg
http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/content/canamgallery/canam35.jpg

Here's a car that is definitely a roadster with a easy solution for a roof. There's no reason the 818 can't have something similar.

[JRL]

Not terribly bad for a temporary roof but I think it cost about $3,000 or put into perspective 1/3 of the projected 818 cost.

I love the Ultima Cars

[bromikl]

Not terribly bad for a temporary roof but I think it cost about $3,000 or put into perspective 1/3 of the projected 818 cost.

I love the Ultima Cars

I think you may still be not getting it. Most people who want a roof don't expect to get one with the base model. The roof is an add-on. At additional expense. Please, oh please stop imagining that we are demanding the $9,900 version has a roof. I'd be happy to pay double the base kit price for a car that is infinitely more usable.

[JRL]

I think you may still be not getting it. Most people who want a roof don't expect to get one with the base model. The roof is an add-on. At additional expense. Please, oh please stop imagining that we are demanding the $9,900 version has a roof. I'd be happy to pay double the base kit price for a car that is infinitely more usable.


Then you should consider the GTM or the Type 65.

Perhaps you are the one that doesn't get it!

[bromikl]

Please, oh please stop imagining that we are demanding the $9,900 version has a roof.

Neither a Coupe nor a GTM is an 818 - with a Subaru boxer engine and a base price of $9,900.

[StatGSR]

Take a deep breath and go read what FF stated in the original design parameters. I posted the key elements of the press release back on page #1 post #10.


Dude, you butchered the meaning of the press release to try and make your point and ignored everything else that was included in it... so let me give this a shot and see what we can come up with...





.........

The design goal behind this car is very straightforward, the car must be simple, lightweight, affordable, and easy to build in countries around the world. The emphasis will be on handling and driving fun rather than on the 200 mph exotic or the everyday commuter. The majority of the cars we sell are street cars and this will not be an exception, so full lighting, covered wheels, and safety items will all be incorporated but not much beyond that in terms of luxury type stuff. To keep things simple this will be an elemental performance based street car first but with a roll bar/structure sufficient for track days. The suspension is a double A-arm/multilink with Koni coil-overs on all corners (we will not use the Subaru struts). In terms of what we will use from the Subaru, the goal is everything possible that doesn't compromise the design goal. We won't utilize the unibody but at this point every other piece is fair game (ok, probably not the headliner either).

The design competition is exciting and it is WIDE OPEN. The likely design due to the price targets will be a roadster, but all designs (coupe, targa, dedicated track car, etc.) are encouraged and have an equal chance of winning.

The success of this 818 project depends tremendously on the full integration of CAD technology, the application of our accumulated street and track experience, and the input of our talented and passionate customer base. It is our largest challenge to date and yet, I am confident we will deliver on the lofty goals.

IDK, sounds like they want something that can still be a street car and i think most street cars still come with some form of roof and doors......

[JRL]

Let's try this one more time.

You said: I'd be happy to pay double the base kit price for a car that is infinitely more usable which puts you in the GTM / Coupe price range.

Please, oh please tell me where I said the 818 is a Coupe or GTM!

[Silvertop]

I think you may still be not getting it. Most people who want a roof don't expect to get one with the base model. The roof is an add-on. At additional expense. Please, oh please stop imagining that we are demanding the $9,900 version has a roof. I'd be happy to pay double the base kit price for a car that is infinitely more usable.

JRL's basic assertion that for $9900, we shouldn't expect anything other than a roadster, probably with step-over sills and no doors, is likely correct. However, that does not mean that FFR may not be planning a way to satisfy those who want more.

It's a theme that has showed up elsewhere in this forum: What if FFR unveils more than one winning body design on June 14? One an open roadster, no doors, no top, no frills, a pure driving toy, which will meet the $9900 price point, and another completely different body, perhaps a variation on a Targa top, or maybe a soft-top roadster with doors and side curtains, which will fit over the same chassis (or one slightly modified), which costs a few thousand dollars more. I don't think it would need to be double the cost............

I'm not predicting that will happen, or even suggesting that it is probable, but it is possible. It is certainly fun to think about.

I do believe that one way or another, FFR is going to find a way to satisfy those who want something more than a topless roadster, albeit at extra cost. They are too business smart to ignore what I believe is a large part of their potential customer base for this car.

June 14!!!!!!!

[JRL]

First of all I'm not a dude and second I didn't butcher or change anything - I COPIED IT DIRECTLY FROM THE PRESS RELEASE. Can you not READ!

[StatGSR]

you bolded and underlined a direct copy to make emphasis on certain points. which is why i went back and did the same thing to make a different point. yes you butchered it (and so did i) because you changed the meaning of the wall of text to match your agenda....

I feel the one that needs to go reread the press release is you...

[bromikl]

My apologies. When I read JRL's post about the $3,000 bikini top, I imagined he believed the cost of the top would be part of the $9,900 base price.

The part about paying double was hyperbole. I wouldn't seriously pay more than $600 for a piece of canvas, though any top is worth much more than that.

What I still don't understand is how wanting a top at additional cost is somehow antagonistic to those who don't.

[armstrom]

No offense, but if that bikini top costs $3K then I think that's just a case of ultima taking customers to the cleaners. Hell, they already dropped $100K+ building the car, what's another $3k? I just don't see $3K worth of materials and craftsmanship there. Perhaps there's something fancy going on in there that I can't see.. but $3k?? Either way. I just hope the final design can at least accommodate a roof, even if it's not a factory option. I will be glad to buy some convertible top canvas and break out my sewing machine assuming there's somewhere for me to attach the canvas to. If the roll bar is a single piece "U" shape that would be perfect.
Something like this would be perfect (just imagine it on a low slung sports car rather than a mud-slung jeep) http://www.psycocavr.com/images/rg-side-opensm.jpg
I can make that assuming there's somewhere for me to attach it. Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I'm not looking for double sealed doors and totally waterproof interior. Just keep the sun and rain off my head and out of my face and I'm a happy customer. I don't plan on installing a fancy leather interior or a bunch of electronics that can't get wet. The car should still survive being caught in a rainstorm without the top, I just want a tiny bit of comfort :)

[Gun Bunny]

Ok readymix I'll bite.

After reading literally 100's of comments regarding the 818 I get the feeling folks are looking for a 7/8's scale GTM ,not a clone but the same amenities, roof, doors, windows, ability to add HVAC etc. So using your logic FF can do that for less than $10,000 because they have learned something. I'll type this slowly so you can comprehend - It can't be done!

Ease up, dudette. Mental stimulation =/= trolling. I get that you're frustrated at being misunderstood, try and cut other people some slack, and realize that maybe you're misunderstanding them as well...


[/B]

Then you should consider the GTM or the Type 65.

Perhaps you are the one that doesn't get it!

I think you have fundamentally misunderstood the rather sizable crowd of people (myself included) who want some sort of weatherproofing available for purchase. We are not demanding that we get everything we want at the 10k price point. Nor are we insisting that every 818 has all the amenities built in, regardless of the people who don't want them.

If you want a pure roadster, are happy with a limited window of driving time, and want the 10k price point, cool. If, however, you want more useability and creature comforts (HVAC, roof, windows, stereo, etc...), FFR can have them as optional equipment.

The GTM, hot rod and coupe ALL have HVAC as an option directly from FFR. The hard top is a factory-designed option for the hot rod. This production paradigm is hardly unprecedented.

I will agree with you on one point. A fully enclosed 818 with all those amenities at the 10k price point can't be done (not profitably anyway). Where I disagree with you is your implied assertion that because it cant be done at that price, it shouldn't be done period, at any price. Your point of view, while certainly valid, is not going to fit with other people's wants and needs for the car. Nor is my point of view (equally valid) going to necessarily fit with your wants and needs. FFR, as a business, has to ensure that their chosen design(s) cover the broadest appeal possible.

Granted, if they choose to go with two or more body styles, this whole conversation may become moot.

[JRL]

I used the "bold" simply because many folks had gone so far off track that I wanted to bang my head against the wall. Folks were arguing over something that was clearly not in the original design parameters. The ever growing wish list is fairytale stuff.

If FF could provide a car with the same amenities as the GTM (roof, windows, doors) for less than $10,000 then why is the GTM not priced at $10,000? Why not offer a Subaru based GTM for $10,000? I'll tell you why - it can't be done.

Silvertop gets it! I can see FF offering a base car - no doors - no top in the price range of $10,000. Adding a top will require doors and windows (side and rear) which will require a totally different chassis which puts you in the price range of the Coupe and GTM which makes no sense from a marketing stand point.

[Silvertop]

.............What I still don't understand is how wanting a top at additional cost is somehow antagonistic to those who don't.

I don't understand that either.

[JRL]

I don't either and I never said I did. I simply pointed out that a top was not in the cards at the $10,000 price point. I also firmly believe a coupe 818 is not possible in the $10,000 price range.

That being said I looked at all of the designs submitted then eliminated all of the coupes and all of the ones showing doors (again the original chassis has no doors and the original press release called for a Roadster). What I envisioned was a modern version of this http://vintagespyders.com/ and I think that is what FF had in mind.

[StatGSR]

the frame doesn't need doors for the body to have doors, i thought we were already passed this.... and the press release said it would "likely" be a Roadster, but that all other designs are encouraged and have an equal chance of winning. stop putting words in FF's mouth.

[Silvertop]

I don't either and I never said I did. I simply pointed out that a top was not in the cards at the $10,000 price point. I also firmly believe a coupe 818 is not possible in the $10,000 price range.

That being said I looked at all of the designs submitted then eliminated all of the coupes and all of the ones showing doors (again the original chassis has no doors and the original press release called for a Roadster). What I envisioned was a modern version of this http://vintagespyders.com/ and I think that is what FF had in mind.

We need to keep in mind that on June 14, FFR is unveiling the chassis design as well as a body design. The prototype chassis we are basing our assumptions on is just that -- a prototype. The final may have a different look, -- one that may be conducive to going in more than one direction, and in particular, to having doors. We shall see.

I believe that they will be able to offer some additional choices or options that will not push the total cost into anywhere near the range of the GTM even if one of those options is a Targa type thing -- the GTM base kit is $20K, and after you buy all the very expensive Corvette LS underpinnings, you will have spent a great sack of money. Your cost comparison for the 65 Coupe to some sort of 818 Coupe or Targa-coupe may be more reasonable -- but I'm guessing it would still be not be as much.

I really have no idea what will be unveiled -- though I'd bet the mortgage that some provision for doors (if not already included) and a top of some type will be there. But yeah, we're going to have to pay for it.

[thebeerbaron]

We need to keep in mind that on June 14, FFR is unveiling the chassis design as well as a body design.

Correction, June 11th, at the Open House (http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/showevent/openhouse/2011/invite.html). It's the 14th annual open house, that's where the confusion comes from.

[JRL]

SatGSR please point me to the comment where I "put words into FF's mouth".

For the record I hope FF provides a car + options that makes everyone happy. I just don't see how that can be done if the design parameters are followed. Some of you want more than the Roadster or Spec Racer offers and for less money - how does that work?

[StatGSR]

SatGSR please point me to the comment where I "put words into FF's mouth".



(again the original chassis has no doors and the original press release called for a Roadster). What I envisioned was a modern version of this http://vintagespyders.com/ and I think that is what FF had in mind.

the frame doesn't need doors for the car to have doors!!! and to quote FF again from the press release..

"The design competition is exciting and it is WIDE OPEN. The likely design due to the price targets will be a roadster, but all designs (coupe, targa, dedicated track car, etc.) are encouraged and have an equal chance of winning."

Please learn how to finish reading a sentence. I can understand that they would like a roadster from that text, but they haven't said that it will for sure be a roadster. If they would wanted it to be a roadster why would they tell people to design them anything other than a roadster. What I'm saying is that it is still up in the air for now and i don't think you are the one to make the call on what FF can or can't do with a 10k kit... yes more stuff costs more money, but more creative engineering while using donor parts can save a lot of money as well.

if there is a cost concern anyone should be worried about its going to be the cost of a decent donor. which could vary from 2000-10,000...

[JRL]

GSR I read quite well. I also based my opinions (I never spoke for FF) on the $10,000 price point, my degree in engineering and a career in cost management - not pixie dust and wishful thinking :-) Contrary to your opinion the frame (as presented) does need modification / provisions for doors to be incorporated (think hinge and strike) and the diagonal brace will need to be redesigned to eliminate the high step over discussed on this forum.

You ask why they would say the design is open - it's called marketing - creating a global buzz. I'm sure some part of some design will be incorporated into the final product but I doubt we will see one of the really cool exotic designs presented on this forum. Dave Smith also said the car will most likely be fiberglass but don't rule out a metal body because of the advances in hydro-forming - so I can extrapolate and say an aluminum bodied coupe is something I can add to my wish list.

The chassis is likely complete and in a powered go cart form at this time so I would assume a basic body configuration has also been decided. Again just an opinion based on my career experience and education. The first amendment does allow me to speak freely and opine just as it allows you to disagree. We will know in less than a month who is closer to the truth - should be a fun time for all :-)

[PhyrraM]

The frame does not neccisarily have to accomodate the hinges, latch, and/or striker. Those can all be incorperated into the body if FFR chooses. Most pre-2000s Lotuses do this.

Also, the diagonals may not be nearly as intrusive as they look in the pictures if the "above the tank" seating arraingement survives intact to the final car.

Really, really looking forward to open house photos.

[JRL]

The frame does not neccisarily have to accomodate the hinges, latch, and/or striker. Those can all be incorperated into the body if FFR chooses. Most pre-2000s Lotuses do this.

Also, the diagonals may not be nearly as intrusive as they look in the pictures if the "above the tank" seating arraingement survives intact to the final car.

Really, really looking forward to open house photos.

True enough but only in a fairly robust body - something not in keeping with past FF kits.

I agree on the open house photos - that will be an exciting time.

[Oppenheimer]

For the record I hope FF provides a car + options that makes everyone happy. I just don't see how that can be done if the design parameters are followed.

It seems like your outlook is being hemmed in by the 'design parameters'. Learn to see outside the box.

Maybe it would help if you didn't think of these as design parameters, but as more of design suggestions, or as a starting point. That seems to be more what FFR had in mind, not as rigid design boundaries.

[JRL]

Oppen I have spent my entire life (a long one at that) thinking outside the box that is what I have been paid to do. The only thing that has me hemmed in is the price point vs the wish list.

I hope I have to come on this forum June the 12th and publicly state that I was totally wrong. I will happily do that but I doubt many of those with opposing points of view will do the same if I am right.

Edit: Change date

[David Hodgkins]

One point of clarification:

The contest winners are being announced at the 14th Annual FFR Open House on June 11th.

[thebeerbaron]

One point of clarification:

The contest winners are being announced at the 14th Annual FFR Open House on June 11th.


Correction, June 11th, at the Open House (http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/showevent/openhouse/2011/invite.html). It's the 14th annual open house, that's where the confusion comes from.

Facts are meaningless in this thread David. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true! (Paraphrased from Mr Homer J. Simpson)

[Oppenheimer]

The only thing that has me hemmed in is the price point vs the wish list.

What if, at the price point, its a Roadster, and it hits the weight target, but then, they offer, optionally, added features, that cost more, and weigh more. Do you think that is plausible? The wish list not part of the 'price point'?

[JRL]

That is what I have been saying all along. The base car - the $10,000 one - will likely be a roadster - possibly without doors. That was the basis of my first post go back and read Post # 1 somehow my basic position has been lost.

The wish list is a valid point as most of the folks want the majority of what is on the list -roof - doors - viable HVAC - windows - weather proof - and many a daily driver.

[Gollum]

This has all been very hilarious INDEED!

JRL, I don't think you'll find a single person who's seriously considering building a 818 who wants a weatherproof car that actually expects to pay $15k building it.

And to build a fully weatherproof GTM will cost way more than double the 818, same goes with the 65 coupe. Double a weatherproof 818? That remains to be seen.

We simply don't know what will be offered and for how much. But Dave Smiths has said himself that he never wanted design parameters to curb someone's creativity and that if there was a really awesome design that required certain features they're not against making that choice. Reading between the lines of what Dave's said, I'd say it COULD have doors and a roof standard and cost $15 for the kit instead of $10k. Will that really happen? I doubt it. But Dave seemed to make it pretty clear that nothing has been "ruled out" like you seem to be trying to JRL.

I agree with the point of this thread in essence, which is that we're not going to get everything for nothing.

My only hope is that we can build a weatherproof version of the 818 for less than an extra $6k, which I think in still reasonable. I'd easily pay $21-25k for a fully weatherproof 1900 pound vehicle with 300hp. I know that's getting to be a stones throw away from a used lotus with high mileage, but there's a whole nother set of pros and cons for that debate.


And regarding how FFR can provide this kit for $10k, I think some of you here have nailed it. Not only will this car come with far less hardware than other kits FFR has offered, but it's also going to be a very simplified design, and I think we can see that in the chassis photos so far alone. They're not looking to engineer some super complicated chassis, but rather something that's simple but engineered to work well, making it easy to fabricate on a jig. They've also said that this will likely be the fastest design staged car they've done, which will also cut down costs. They're taking a whole new approach to this car, and that's where the money savings come in. I don't see doors as a huge cost killer, but maybe I'm wrong. Maybe doors will even be optional, like the difference between a Roadster Spec Racer versus the traditional roadster.

But I think comparing to the '33 has it's merits as long as we don't take everything too literal. But the price of the '33 is amazing for what it is. FFR is offering a LOT of parts in that kit, and all of good quality. They did it right by making a top and other parts optional. In the end they now offer probably one of the highest value hot rod kits on the market. I can't think of anyone that offers more for a better price. At the same time though, they meet that price by offering a true kit car, not a roller that you put an engine into. I don't think anybody dreams it different. We all know these are true KIT cars who's quality depends on US as the BUILDER.

As we've seen in this thread, there's plenty of people that have built roadsters with power steering, heat, AC, etc on their own time and budget. I truly hope nobody here is dim-witted enough to think FFR is going to provide that kind of stuff for the 10k target price.

That being said though, I DO plan on building a 818 will full HVAC, tightly sealed cab, and with a roof. I also expect to spend a pretty penny on it.

[JRL]

"That being said though, I DO plan on building a 818 will full HVAC, tightly sealed cab, and with a roof. I also expect to spend a pretty penny on it."

LOL You have just stepped out the "simple, light, affordable box that is the basis of the entire project and entered an entirely different paradigm. Which is exactly what I have been saying. Welcome to the world of reality.

[Benji]

Oh yay! Another pointless thread where someone forms their own opinion of what *they* think this 'car' is going to be based on *their* interpretation of the design/competition details, posts it up in yet ANOTHER new thread and then gets upset when people disagree with them as if their written word was gospel....

[Hiryu]

I just wanted to clear this up since I haven't heard anybody expand on it...The class-IV tow-package is included in the base 818 price, right?

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Gun Bunny]

I thought they dropped the tow package to mitigate the cost of the walnut burl interior?!?

[JRL]

If you find the comments pointless or opinionated - don't read them - how hard is that? :-)

No hitch - damn!

[Benji]

On the contrary, you thoughts and opinions are perfectly valid, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

That isn't what the issue is. The issue is that you are coming across as though you are TELLING people how/what this is all about and unless you are playing facts, you aren't in a position to do so and you certainly can't then take offense to people disagreeing with you.

There are many were people have been happily stating their OPINION on what they think it's going to be or what they would *like* it to be, why not use one of those threads?

[spaceywilly]

"That being said though, I DO plan on building a 818 will full HVAC, tightly sealed cab, and with a roof. I also expect to spend a pretty penny on it."

LOL You have just stepped out the "simple, light, affordable box that is the basis of the entire project and entered an entirely different paradigm. Which is exactly what I have been saying. Welcome to the world of reality.

The best part is that they think FF is going to listen to what they say. Suddenly everyone is the president of the company and their wants and needs are the only ones that matter.

[wjfawb0]

I'll need the hitch for towing my motorcycle to Deal's gap. :D

[Benji]

The best part is that they think FF is going to listen to what they say. Suddenly everyone is the president of the company and their wants and needs are the only ones that matter.

Well.... maybe not listen to everything but they have clearly made statements along the lines of "we are open to ideas" and "not everything is set in stone" haven't they, so I could ask when did you become the president of the company to tell us we now can't suggest things we'd like to see? Do you understand what I am trying to say?

[RobertNB]

I have just looked at the designs for the 818 and while they look pretty cool, there are LOTS of angles and complex body lines! Will they really make the price target to form those bodies? Since you guys have made the classic Cobra and Daytona Coupe, why not dispense with the Speed Racer designs and take a look at a '64 XKE Series 1? Very smooth and flowing lines, NO complex angles to deal with. Would make a worthy-looking cousin for the FFR.

[crackedcornish]

I have just looked at the designs for the 818 and while they look pretty cool, there are LOTS of angles and complex body lines! Will they really make the price target to form those bodies? Since you guys have made the classic Cobra and Daytona Coupe, why not dispense with the Speed Racer designs and take a look at a '64 XKE Series 1? Very smooth and flowing lines, NO complex angles to deal with. Would make a worthy-looking cousin for the FFR.

'64 XKE Series 1?
you do realize this is a mid engined car with the engine placed behind the cockpit...right?

[Oppenheimer]

That is what I have been saying all along. The base car - the $10,000 one - will likely be a roadster - possibly without doors. That was the basis of my first post go back and read Post # 1 somehow my basic position has been lost.

The wish list is a valid point as most of the folks want the majority of what is on the list -roof - doors - viable HVAC - windows - weather proof - and many a daily driver.

Wow. So my first thought was if either English was your second language, or if you rode the short bus to school. But reading more, like this:


LOL You have just stepped out the "simple, light, affordable box that is the basis of the entire project and entered an entirely different paradigm. Which is exactly what I have been saying. Welcome to the world of reality.

...and I realize, your problem isn't that you don't understand what everyone has been saying, but rather that you are so stuck inside the box of your view of what this car can be, that any other view is invalid to you.

[JRL]

Good grief..................

[riptide motorsport]

My thoughts? I wish I was a moderator here so I could shut this thread and all of you children down. Sincerely steven

[Magnus]

So, are we close to fulfilling "Godwin's Law" in this discussion? I mean, we've started with the ad hominem attacks...

[Oppenheimer]

Apologies to all for letting my frustrations get the better of me.

[bromikl]

Apologies to all for letting my frustrations get the better of me.

We all felt the same way. I suspect someone was baiting us.

[JRL]

Well I wasn't baiting anyone. I simply offered my opinion on what I thought we could expect given the press release from FF and the $10 K price point.

[Niburu]

unfortunately you presented alot of your opinions as facts
which is what got things spiralling in this thread
but we all get to find out in few weeks wether we need to start saving our pennies up
and hunting for the donor
or not

[Silvertop]

........but we all get to find out in few weeks wether we need to start saving our pennies up
and hunting for the donor
or not

And that --unfortunately-- may prove to be the next big stumbling block. I have been watching the local newspapers (Minneapolis/St Paul MN) for a number of weeks, and there simply have not been that many suitable donors available for sale. When I do see one, the prices seem to be very high. An '02 WRX, for example, may be listed for as much as $8k to $10k, at least around here. I fear the prices may go up even higher when owners and dealers figure out that there are a bunch of kit car nuts looking for donor cars. One may wish to shop early and shop hard.

But that is probably a subject for another thread................

[thebeerbaron]

And that --unfortunately-- may prove to be the next big stumbling block. I have been watching the local newspapers (Minneapolis/St Paul MN) for a number of weeks, and there simply have not been that many suitable donors available for sale. When I do see one, the prices seem to be very high. An '02 WRX, for example, may be listed for as much as $8k to $10k, at least around here. I fear the prices may go up even higher when owners and dealers figure out that there are a bunch of kit car nuts looking for donor cars. One may wish to shop early and shop hard.

But that is probably a subject for another thread................

It is covered in other threads. I got my donor for 4500 in good running condition. But really all you need is a wreck from one of those places that sells insurance write-offs. There are some examples posted elsewhere.

[Silvertop]

It is covered in other threads. I got my donor for 4500 in good running condition. But really all you need is a wreck from one of those places that sells insurance write-offs. There are some examples posted elsewhere.

Thanks for the input, BeerBaron. I'll try to maintain optimism.

[JRL]

I wouldn't worry about all the donors being swept up or priced out of reach because of the 818. There are hundreds of viable donors if you search the web.

[D2W]

and remember that the donors will get cheaper everyday from now. FFR probably won't have anything for sale for at least 6 months to a year. When the roadster first came out the oldest donor was only 8 years old.

[readymix]

Silvertop, go check MNSubaru.com. There is usually a car for sale on there. I'm a moderator at that site.

[Brian Apple]

I drove from central WI to South Dakota to get my WRX with 88k. Blown motor for and paid $3800. Excellent OEM condition otherwise. I am always willing to drive one way in a day to pick up a great deal on a car. It greatly increases the ammount of car available.(obviously)

[bromikl]

I bookmarked Craigslist and I check every day. Right now for amusement, mostly, and to get a feel for what the cars sell for. Filter by 'cars and trucks by owner' for the best deals. I've already let several good deals go by 'cause we don't know exactly which years/models are viable donors. There's one up there now I wouldn't mind playing with - even if it's not donor material.

http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/2399500302.html

[Silvertop]

A lot of very useful donor car input over the last 7 or 8 posts. Much appreciated. I'll take advantage of it.

Thanks to all.

[thebeerbaron]

There are some Craigslist aggregators that let you search multiple cities and some of those will send you alerts when new things are posted that match your search. Could make things easier for you.

[Silvertop]

Another nice tip. Thanks, Beerbaron.

I really didn't mean to hijack the thread...........

[JRL]

LOL the wheels came off this thread several pages back. At least now there is some civil and helpful commentary.

[2KWIK4U]

And that --unfortunately-- may prove to be the next big stumbling block. I have been watching the local newspapers (Minneapolis/St Paul MN) for a number of weeks, and there simply have not been that many suitable donors available for sale. When I do see one, the prices seem to be very high. An '02 WRX, for example, may be listed for as much as $8k to $10k, at least around here. I fear the prices may go up even higher when owners and dealers figure out that there are a bunch of kit car nuts looking for donor cars. One may wish to shop early and shop hard.

But that is probably a subject for another thread................

Well it looks like you and me are fishing from the same pond then :)

[Silvertop]

Well it looks like you and me are fishing from the same pond then :)

It does. The good news is that the pond probably has more than one fish in it.

[Niburu]

with every passing winter there will be more "donors" out there

[Someday I Suppose]

You can also check out sights like copart which auction off salvage cars.

[05xtsy]

I Know some have talked about this, but has anyone really thought about the 1800lb constraint when they were designing? The KTM Xbow weighs 1500-1700? It doesn't have doors, windows, a wind shield, rear window, and a lot of other creature comforts. Now, I'm not saying that someone can't build the car without those things, but for me, when I build/drive this thing, I want to be able to enjoy it inside as well, not sitting on a milk crate because the outside needs to be fully dressed.

[2KWIK4U]

I know that the stated goal is 1800lb, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will actually achieve that. I think even if they get close it will be a fun ride!!

[JRL]

I Know some have talked about this, but has anyone really thought about the 1800lb constraint when they were designing? The KTM Xbow weighs 1500-1700? It doesn't have doors, windows, a wind shield, rear window, and a lot of other creature comforts. Now, I'm not saying that someone can't build the car without those things, but for me, when I build/drive this thing, I want to be able to enjoy it inside as well, not sitting on a milk crate because the outside needs to be fully dressed.

I've given that a great deal of thought and been attacked for expressing my opinion.

[05xtsy]

I know that the stated goal is 1800lb, but it doesn't necessarily mean they will actually achieve that. I think even if they get close it will be a fun ride!!

Oh, no doubt it will be a fun ride, shaving 1000 lbs off of a wrx? were talking warp speed. What I am concerned about is more the rigidity of the panels. Yes it is partly about how well it is built (up to the engineers and the owner), but also about how many parts there are. I just don't think with 1800 - even 2200lbs that this thing is going to be a daily driver in all weather for 15,000, so why treat it like one. It doesn't need to look like a caterham, or an xbow, or an atom, but those cars are really fun for a reason.


I've given that a great deal of thought and been attacked for expressing my opinion.

Thats a bummer. The thought for me has to do with the body when you are driving it. I have been in an xbow, and atom, I think part of the appeal of those cars aside from visuals and sounds, is that they seem tight and refined, you can focus all your energy on driving, and driving fast. What you get with a lot of full body kit cars are those little annoying vibrations and just an overall "non-tightness" to them. The more elemental you get of course, the less you notice of those things.

[PhyrraM]

What makes that XBow so heavy?

I look at the old MG Midget, a steel unibody, @ 1600 pounds or the Lotus Europa, a steel backbone frame and full fiberglass body, @ 1500 pounds and wonder what can possibly be in other minimalistic cars to add 300+ more pounds. Both of those had iron blocks and heads in thier original incarnations.

The Fiat X-1/9 was 2000 pounds, also iron block and steel unibody. It was designed for the proposed 45mph crash test of the 70s, just for good measure. The first Lotus Esprit, a much larger car than the Europa had an iron block, steel backbone frame, full interior, ect and came in at 2200 pounds.

I think 1800 pounds for the 818 is very possible for a non-HVAC version.

[Oppenheimer]

I've given that a great deal of thought and been attacked for expressing my opinion.

My interpretation was the focus of the discord was that people objected to being belittled for asking that the base kit, at the base cost, and meeting all the base targets, include all the conceivable options that such people were hoping would eventually be offered, when they never asked for such (they asked for the options, just not at the base cost & weight).

There were other threads where the weight was brought up, if even the base 818 Roadster kit, could meet the weight target. Intelligent conversation ensued, opinions were expressed and considered. No consensus was found, yet no discord occured. This thread didn't go that way (which I am at least partially to blame).

My opinion is, whatever the weight of the 818 Roadster ends up, it will still be a fun, crazy fast car, and that if such car were to have (extra cost) options such as a Targa roof, HVAC, the added weight of choosing them would still result in a fun, crazy fast car.

[thebeerbaron]

Here's an example of a thread discussing cars that weigh around 1800lbs (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?1147-What-does-818-mean) and no feelings got hurt.

And just because I put so much effort into making the charts, a thread discussing power to weight ratios (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?1624-Is-it-FASTER-than-a-Yugo).

Those might be fun reads for some folks who missed them, or opportunities to discuss this further.

[riptide motorsport]

Crazy fast is relative. My 2300 lb C0brA with 435 hp and 435 torque is fun fast so I'm going to need at least the same for this car to feel crazy fast. B definitly doable... Seven

[bromikl]

Crazy fast is relative. My 2300 lb C0brA with 435 hp and 435 torque is fun fast so I'm going to need at least the same for this car to feel crazy fast. B definitly doable... Seven


riptide, your car has a better power-to-weight ratio than any production sportbike. You already own crazy fast.

[Steve91T]

I think the magic number is going to be around 300 hp. That is going to be VERY fast for this car. One thing I'm going to be concerned with is reliability. I want to be able to spend the weekend on the track, in the middle of the summer, and not worry about to much heat in the engine.

Still going to be stupid fast. Have you guys seen videos of 300 hp Elise's? I can't wait!

[2KWIK4U]

Crazy fast is relative. My 2300 lb C0brA with 435 hp and 435 torque is fun fast so I'm going to need at least the same for this car to feel crazy fast. B definitly doable... Seven

I agree with you,
Even with my FFR roadster weighing in at 2500 lbs and a wookie (me) driving I had great fun with only around 300 hp in it. My friends roadster is lighter and is at 370 hp and it is also awsome to drive.

[JRL]

I was right......................

[Benji]

I was right......................

*SIGH*, before I ask "would you kindly....." and hand you a golf club, please explain exactly how you were right?

(I don't even know why I'm going to entertain this but I guess I'm up for a laugh).

[Silvertop]

I was right......................

Yes, you were. I don't think there was ever much doubt about that. But it looks like the folks who were hoping for something more than a stripped-down no frills roadster turned out to be right too. Based on the way this project is moving, it looks like there will be something for everybody, even if they have to pay a little more for it -- and that was never in dispute either.

Welcome back.

[JRL]

Benji - read the thread son..............

Silvertop there was more than doubt amongst some

For what it's worth I think the 818 project is on track to be an exciting new FFR offering.

[slopoke]

when all is said and done ... a bird in the hand is worth more than all the speculation on this forum. God! I hate have to wait patiently!

[Silvertop]

For what it's worth I think the 818 project is on track to be an exciting new FFR offering.

Not likely to find any argument with THAT!:)

[bromikl]

@JRL: Way to resurrect a three months dead thread to boast about how prescient you are.

You're "right" and you're also mis-understanding. Intentionally? Who knows. No one said the car offered meeting ALL the design goals would include a/c, closed canopy, power steering, and cup holders. But many people have said they are willing to pay extra for those, and they don't much care if the car they drive is over the 1800 lb mark.

So really. Just let it rest. You build your 818 for $14,999 to base model specs, and let the rest of us build ours how we want it.

[adesilva]

Anyone looking to find a donor on craigslist check out searchtempest nice website that allows you to search multiple craigslist cities within a range of a zipcode

[Benji]

@JRL: Way to resurrect a three months dead thread to boast about how prescient you are.

You're "right" and you're also mis-understanding. Intentionally? Who knows. No one said the car offered meeting ALL the design goals would include a/c, closed canopy, power steering, and cup holders. But many people have said they are willing to pay extra for those, and they don't much care if the car they drive is over the 1800 lb mark.

So really. Just let it rest. You build your 818 for $14,999 to base model specs, and let the rest of us build ours how we want it.

JRL - This. It's what I was effectively getting at but was waiting for you to dig your own hole (again). ;)

[JRL]

@JRL: Way to resurrect a three months dead thread to boast about how prescient you are.

You're "right" and you're also mis-understanding. Intentionally? Who knows. No one said the car offered meeting ALL the design goals would include a/c, closed canopy, power steering, and cup holders. But many people have said they are willing to pay extra for those, and they don't much care if the car they drive is over the 1800 lb mark.

So really. Just let it rest. You build your 818 for $14,999 to base model specs, and let the rest of us build ours how we want it.

Again - read the thread. I said I would come back and revisit my position after the competition was completed. I never said folks couldn't build a Porsche if they wanted to. I simply said for the base price you were likely to get an open top car with basic or a low level amenities. I also said not to expect a daily driver - seems even Dave has said the same thing. So please enlighten me - where did I go wrong? If anybody is mis-understanding my position of what FF would offer it is you.

[shinn497]

I am lost how are you right? I have heardno meanion of the weight.

[crackedcornish]

I am lost how are you right? I have heardno meanion of the weight.

http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/818intro.html

[bromikl]

I simply said for the base price you were likely to get an open top car with basic or a low level amenities.

And I am saying the same thing. The key words are for the base price. FFR appears to be in the process of developing all that extra stuff at an additional cost. Which is the point I think you're missing.

They will offer comfort amenities to those who want them - and those people will pay more, and their cars will weigh more. Your argument seems to be that those amenities will not be offered by FFR - ever - at any price. Our argument is that they will be offered, even though some individual cars built will not meet ALL the design goals. No one ever thought a roof would be included in the $9900 kit price, nor did they think a finished daily driver would weigh less than 1800 lbs.

So - we're all on the same page. We're all in agreement. It's just a matter of saying the same thing a different way. NOW can we let this thread die?