Crash worthiness of the 818?

[lennyspecv]

God forbid that this happens to anyone, but do we have any real-world info on this yet? I noticed how the end of the transmission is right behind the rear body panel...seems like the right crash, maybe even a fender bender, would push the motor right into the cabin.

Any thoughts? Maybe some protective bracing could be added in the rear?

I don't have my 818 yet so this is all speculation.

[Ken Allwine]

I was curious about this as well. This was the first thing my wife asked when I even mentioned the idea of building a "kit car".

[STiPWRD]

God forbid that this happens to anyone, but do we have any real-world info on this yet? I noticed how the end of the transmission is right behind the rear body panel...seems like the right crash, maybe even a fender bender, would push the motor right into the cabin.

Yes, there has been one front end crash so far:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16427-818-Accident-Report-Update&highlight=john+g

I'm not sure exactly what analysis FFR has done for crash protection but I think there is an adequate amount of framing surrounding the driver. The front has a crumple zone where the radiator attaches and the rear has a substantial frame structure between the engine compartment and cabin.


Any thought? Maybe some protective bracing could be added in the rear?

Some have installed extra framing in the rear for more protection, to pass their state inspection, or to mount a larger rear wing. Here are just a few examples:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12534-MRG-MotorSports-818S-Build&p=214166&viewfull=1#post214166
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?11129-Plavan-s-818R-Build-Thread&p=176512&viewfull=1#post176512
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16067-Andrew-amp-Tamra-s-818SR-EM-Autox-Hybrid-Destroked-Long-Rod-Build&p=212089&viewfull=1#post212089

[jceckard]

Yes, there has been one front end crash so far:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16427-818-Accident-Report-Update&highlight=john+g

After reading through the crash report and various comments, especially the ones about the engine pivoting, I wonder if the pivot is a good thing. In the event of a rear end crash, wouldn't it be best if the engine/transmission pivots (hopefully down) instead of shear and end up in your spine?

[Wayne Presley]

One of my customers was hit in the right side from the rear edge of the door to the rear edge of the car. Chassis did it's job and driver walked away unhurt.

[D Clary]

I examined my chassis when it arrived. It is an R chassis and therefore much stronger than the street chassis, that been said I think it is very safe for the driver, but a small to moderate crash is going to cost you a new chassis. At least a front or rear clip.

[lennyspecv]

I examined my chassis when it arrived. It is an R chassis and therefore much stronger than the street chassis, that been said I think it is very safe for the driver, but a small to moderate crash is going to cost you a new chassis. At least a front or rear clip.

I was glad to learn that there are insurance companies out there who are willing to insure kit cars for full coverage.

[Wayne Presley]

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/Emerald%202015/IMG_15451_zpsetztybdz.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/Emerald%202015/IMG_15451_zpsetztybdz.jpg.html)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/Emerald%202015/IMG_15461_zpsa35qqczp.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/Emerald%202015/IMG_15461_zpsa35qqczp.jpg.html)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/Emerald%202015/IMG_15541_zpsj7s7hutr.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/Emerald%202015/IMG_15541_zpsj7s7hutr.jpg.html)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/Emerald%202015/IMG_15481_zps7iutd2d7.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/Emerald%202015/IMG_15481_zps7iutd2d7.jpg.html)

[Wayne Presley]

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/Emerald%202015/IMG_15491_zpsm5egllnd.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/Emerald%202015/IMG_15491_zpsm5egllnd.jpg.html)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/Emerald%202015/IMG_15521_zpsxpzc0f27.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/Emerald%202015/IMG_15521_zpsxpzc0f27.jpg.html)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc175/vcpinjectionpb/Emerald%202015/IMG_15511_zpsztipfkde.jpg (http://s213.photobucket.com/user/vcpinjectionpb/media/Emerald%202015/IMG_15511_zpsztipfkde.jpg.html)

[lennyspecv]

Wow. Glad to know the driver came out ok. But still hugely disappointing for those that were involved in the build.

[C.Plavan]

God forbid that this happens to anyone, but do we have any real-world info on this yet? I noticed how the end of the transmission is right behind the rear body panel...seems like the right crash, maybe even a fender bender, would push the motor right into the cabin.

Any thoughts? Maybe some protective bracing could be added in the rear?

I don't have my 818 yet so this is all speculation.

That's why my fuel cell is in the passenger compartment, and I welded up a stout bumper/wing support.

I pray no one ever gets rear ended with the fuel tank in the stock location.

[lennyspecv]

That's why my fuel cell is in the passenger compartment, and I welded up a stout bumper/wing support.

I pray no one ever gets rear ended with the fuel tank in the stock location.

Geez. That is scary to think about. When I get my kit, I think I'm going to seriously look into adding supplemental bracing in key places. Saving your life is worth an extra hundred lbs or so.

[Mechie3]

I think it can survive a decent hit anywhere except for an impact right in the doors. The side frame ends about even with the body and the doors won't hold much if hit first. Treat it like a four wheeled motorcycle and not a car.

[lennyspecv]

Ya true. Good point.

[Ken Allwine]

Thanks for all that feedback. I may end up getting a non powder coated frame an add a bit of structure in key spots.

[STiPWRD]

After reading through the crash report and various comments, especially the ones about the engine pivoting, I wonder if the pivot is a good thing. In the event of a rear end crash, wouldn't it be best if the engine/transmission pivots (hopefully down) instead of shear and end up in your spine?
In a rear end crash, the inertia of the engine would cause it to move towards the rear of the car, not towards the driver. Depending on the amount of impact force, if the rear end were to collapse THEN the engine could be pushed towards the driver. But again, I would think FFR would have engineered enough rigidity around the driver and crumple zones on the periphery of the vehicle to survive a sizable impact as demonstrated by the now 2 examples. Regardless, the pivoting could be fixed by adding a (dog bone) mount to the top of the transmission.

[lennyspecv]

In a rear end crash, the inertia of the engine would cause it to move towards the rear of the car, not towards the driver. Depending on the amount of impact force, if the rear end were to collapse THEN the engine could be pushed towards the driver. But again, I would think FFR would have engineered enough rigidity around the driver and crumple zones on the periphery of the vehicle to survive a sizable impact as demonstrated by the now 2 examples. Regardless, the pivoting could be fixed by adding a (dog bone) mount to the top of the transmission.

By the time I have the money to order my kit, it is certainly possible that FF may improve on its design anyways. Before ordering a frame unfinished, I would probably call them to get their opinion. I wouldn't want a crumple zone to not work correctly because I put bracing everywhere...that could be dangerous too.

[Mechie3]

With the rear of the car being so low a rear end is more likely to result in a car hitting the transmission directly. The frame between the driver/engine is pretty beefy though.

[lennyspecv]

Right. That's what I was thinking too. So maybe some kind of X bracing could be fabbed in back there.

[tmoretta]

I am especially concerned about the weakness of the windshield frame. It appears to be strictly plastic. In the event of a roll over, I believe that the windshield would collapse on the driver, allowing ones head to be above the very low supplied roll bar. I am thinking of fabricating an additional bar to provide additional forward roll over support.

[Mechie3]

That was one reason I ditched the stock seats. My head would be at if not slightly over the roll bar.

[Wayne Presley]

The side impact drove the halfshaft in to the trans and broke the trans case

[lennyspecv]

That was one reason I ditched the stock seats. My head would be at if not slightly over the roll bar.

I'm 6'1", how tall are you? What seats did you find that lowered the seating position?

Roll bar won't do me any good when my head hits the ground first. Stock seatbelts also allow too much movement.

[lennyspecv]

The side impact drove the halfshaft in to the trans and broke the trans case

Cracking the transmission sounds like a hard impact.

Btw thanks for adding the pics.

[Mechie3]

I'm 6'1" on a good day. I bought the BiMarco Futura fixed back seats. FIA homologated, ~$350/ea. Made my own seat mounts that but the bottom of the seat ~3/4" off the frame rails.

[lennyspecv]

I'm 6'1" on a good day. I bought the BiMarco Futura fixed back seats. FIA homologated, ~$350/ea. Made my own seat mounts that but the bottom of the seat ~3/4" off the frame rails.

Are they decently comfortable? I may have to look at a more street-friendly option since my car will be a DD. But still need to lower the position.

[AZPete]

It looks like the two wrecked 818s were single-car accidents. I'm guessing the 818 might be like the roadster where the greatest safety feature is a skilled driver. The power-to-weight ratio vs the maturity-to-skill ratio.

[Wayne Presley]

It looks like the two wrecked 818s were single-car accidents. I'm guessing the 818 might be like the roadster where the greatest safety feature is a skilled driver. The power-to-weight ratio vs the maturity-to-skill ratio.


Uh the car I posted was hit by another vehicle from the rear edge of the door to the back of the car, the RR wheel and the rear cockpit frame took the brunt of the impact. The center of the wheel is still on the disc but the outer rim was sheared off. This particular driver is well within his skill set to pilot the 818.

[Santiago]

Noticed that wheel hub just sitting there w/no hoop...nasty hit. Sheared the upper link in half as well. The frame looked surprisingly good for such a hit. Very glad the driver walked away ok.

I think for R-car guys, a major concern is getting rear-ended during a wheel-to-wheel race. I'm adding significant support to the rear for this.

Best,
-j

[wearymicrobe]

I was curious about this as well. This was the first thing my wife asked when I even mentioned the idea of building a "kit car".

If you are trully worried about it a spec cobra for the street might actually be a better car for you. Its basically a tube based race car that just happens to have a cobra body wraped around it.

[Flamshackle]

Treat it like a four wheeled motorcycle and not a car.

This^ I agree...

There are a few things we can do to the chassis to make it a little safer but at the end of the day it is a very small very lightweight car with no crash testing. It needs to be treated as such.

[Khartley]

So its probably safe to say that if you like your 818, don't drive it at night on deer infested roads, either. But in the cars defense, lightweight and durable don't really come hand in hand, at least not without a hefty price tag. If you want it to stand up to a hit, then you'd need to add a lot of weight in steel.