Anybody Running a 351 Cleveland?

[RocketDocRyan]

I've got a built 351C in the garage right now- 4V heads (biggest ports I've ever seen), roller rockers, basically ready to run, as far as I can tell. I don't know its full history, but its prior owner was a more-power-is-better type, so I expect it's a bit of a monster. I'm hoping that an EFI manifold and a mild cam will give me a not-quite-daily driver- decent manners, but I'm used to dealing with idiosyncratic cars. I drove a Jeep on 36" super swampers for years, so my bar for a daily driver is pretty low. I plan on dropping the oil pan to verify cylinder wall and cam condition when I get some more time, but assuming that it's all in order, is this a good option for a Coupe down the road? I know it mates up to any Windsor bellhousing, but what is the engine mount and header situation?

46765

[crossle45f33cf]

I have a 351 Cleveland that I've been working on with the intention of running it in the Daytona Coupe that I've been working on at an even slower pace. I've discovered a lot about the Ford 335 series engine. It has tremendous potential but it also has some serious issues, especially when paired with a FFR Dayton Coupe.

The FFR Daytona Coupe, as you may already know was designed to accommodate a small block Windsor style engine with 8.2" deck height. It will also tolerate the 9.5" deck height 351 Windsor style engine. FFR will supply headers for either of these engines, at the builders request. The smaller engines fit easily and unless a quite tall induction system is used, they will have adequate hood clearance. With the taller deck height 351W, clearance is much more of an issue. Short, read compromised performance, manifold designs and short, read compromised breathing, air cleaners are required to keep from altering the shape of the fiberglass hood bubble. Many builders have just bitten the bullet and reconfigured the hood to allow use of an unrestricted induction system.

Bear with me, I'm about to get to the 351C. You are about to be set upon by the many detractors of the often maligned Cleveland. Some of what they say can be believed but some, if not all, should be carefully considered before you stick your 351C in a dim, dark corner at the back of your shop. First, it is slightly heavier than a small block Windsor. It is very close to the same weight as the 351W. It is taller than the 8.2" small block but shorter than the 351W. It has a 9.2" deck height, which makes it slightly taller and slightly wider than the 289/302 cu. in. engines. What this all boils down to is that it will fit but like the 351W it may require some extra effort to provide room.

Some specific issues that you will encounter. The FFR provided headers will not work. You have some options. 1. You can bite the bullet and go with custom made headers, either using the FFR side pipes, or a custom side pipe design. 2. You could cut the flanges off the FFR 351W headers and graft the tubes onto 351C flange plates. 3. You could use a set of aftermarket 351C shorty headers mounted with the outlets forward and use FFR Roadster J-pipes and side pipes. Or, lastly, 4. You could be more creative than I am and come up with a totally original solution.

Engine mounts should not be an issue as the 351W and the 351C use virtually the same parts.

The Cleveland engine is slightly longer which, again, could cause space concerns.

All of that said in defense of the Cleveland engine, I feel there is a fundamental issue inherent in the Cleveland design that may be a problem. The cylinder head design is the crux of the issue. It breathes too well! The ports are, as you've stated, huge. They have the potential to move huge volumes of air. Unfortunately, at low rpm, the port velocity drops and the engine tends to fall on its face. Torque suffers most. I'm hoping that in a very light car like the FFR Daytona, the effect will be minimized. The problem is especially severe in the later engines with the 4 barrel port sizes and the "open" combustion chamber design. These engines were Ford's version of the perfect storm and the reason why Cleveland detractors have a lot of valid data points to support their claims.

In order to give myself the best chance of not having all my Cobra friends point their fingers at my Coupe, laugh, and say "We told you so!", I took the path of spending some extra discretionary funds on a set of Australian aluminum cylinder heads that have been redesigned to get rid of the Cleveland heads' flaws and compliment the strengths. I'm also going to use custom exhaust headers and custom single side pipes. I'm going to use a rather tall intake manifold and single Holley 4 barrel carburetor, all of which will require a lot of work on the hood to make it look decent.

So, the short answer would have been "Yes, it can be done!" It's your build, do it the way you envision it. Make it a thing of beauty to your way of thinking. But, go into the task knowing that it'll be more difficult because you've chosen the path less traveled.

If there's any way I can be of assistance, just let me know...

[RocketDocRyan]

I'm going to be honest that I'm tempted to go the 302 donor route. The Cleveland is sitting in the garage, tempting me with a "free" engine, but I build cars to drive them. It would kill me to walk into the garage every day, and see my dream car, half built, waiting for me to scrounge up the cash and time to stuff an unusual engine into it. I'm going through that right now with my Jeep, and it's making me nuts. If it had the 2V heads, I might try to stick it in the jeep, but lousy bottom end is a deal breaker. Plus, I'm unwilling to use a carb, and EFI on a Cleveland appears to be expensive and/or difficult. So, all in all, about as bad as I had feared. I have a really cool, really expensive doorstop.

[crossle45f33cf]

I took a look at the photo on your original post. Those are some well massaged, aftermarket, aluminum heads. Any idea who made them?

I'm sure that the engine could be absolutely incredible on the top end. But, as you say, you build your cars to drive them. That engine would soon become not fun to drive. It would be well suited to a car that gets trailered to the drag strip or is just driven to cruise and make lots of lumpy noise. Ideal for showing the rice burners what a real engine sounds like! LOL

Keep us posted on what you decide to do. Remember, we're here to help you spend your hard earned money!

[RocketDocRyan]

My father in law built the engine, and he was a high-power hot rod type. Also an abusive douche, but I digress. The engine was intended for his hot rod truck, but he got kicked out of the house before it was finished. It's been sitting on the stand for roughly 18 years or so. I'd love to see what it could do on the strip and show the aforementioned "sport" compacts how to go fast, but one garage-dweller is all I can get approved by the boss. And honestly, I'd hate to have it and not drive it whenever I wanted to.

46771

No idea what kind of heads they are. I suspected aluminum, but haven't had a magnet handy to check. It's got some burly roller rockers, too. I suspect the cam's a roller, but I haven't popped the oil pan to check.

[Aceflo]

I had a friend who ran a 351C in his Mustang. That motor was a beast. Built up with a good set of heads and a mildly aggressive cam .... that car embarrassed a lot of people.

[CES55N]

Hey Ryan don't be afraid of the heads just because of the port size, I have owned, street driven, truck pulled and oval track raced 4V heads for the past 40+ years. Shoot I even street drove a Boss 302 Mustang back in the day, same port, on a 302, granted a little bit of torque is given up below about 3000 rpm on a 351 and a bit higher on a 302. If the cam, fuel curve and timing curve is correct they are totally streetable with a top end pull that has to be experienced to believe. Your heads by the pictures are stock appearing but to know for sure take a mirror and get the casting #s off the bottom side of the intake runner, hopefully starts with D0AE or D1AE if they have D2AE they are the open chamber version and should only be used with 9.5:1 or less compression due to detonation issues. Also get the block casting # down by where the starter goes, there again the numbers beginning in D0 or D1 are the best D2 versions had a lot of core shift problems. A picture under the valve cover would tell a bunch also. I've built probably 50-60 clevelands or (clevor) combinations over the years so have a lot of hands on with them and some parts around also. Gotta run, PM me if you want. Thanks Ed

[skullandbones]

Hi Rocket,

The idea of having a Cleveland or Clevor has always fascinated me. The heads are more like something you would see on a Nascar engine than anything else. I don't pretend to be an expert on these engines but there is one thing for sure. If you detune it with a mild cam, it would sort of defeat the idea of the heads. If you went with a fairly wild but street manageable cam (EFI will probably need to be custom grind or purposed for that application), you would be very happy, I bet. As far as the headers, the J pipes would be a simple solution and IMO look just fine (and sort of natural) in the coupe engine bay. It's pretty tight so the J pipes and shorties should do well. It would keep things as simple as possible. Induction is a little trickier than a roadster if you don't want to modify the hood/scoop. It has been done with carbs so the EFI 4 barrel carb like applications will fit just like their carb cousins. If you went with a stack injection system it would be a real beast. There is actually a cheaper alternative to this application but you have to go down under to do that. Keep us in the loop. I'm curious to see how you pull this off.

Good luck,

WEK.

[RocketDocRyan]

The block is D0AE. I'll check the heads, and try for a picture under the valve covers. It's currently tucked pretty far back. Trick Flow makes a workable EFI intake manifold in the same vein as their Mustang line that have the throttle body on the side. It should have good hood clearance, but I'm not sure if the ports are properly matched to the 4V heads. I think my plan going forward will be to build a donor-based car with a 302, and maybe spring for the TKO initially, and then build the engine over time. I'll do better brakes and a sturdier rear end as I get time, and once the car and engine are ready, drop it in. I found a guy who converted his Pantera to EFI with factory parts, (apparently the FE big block EFI distributor is mostly drop-in) so I should be able to get an MPI setup going without having to drop 4 grand on a turnkey setup. I don't think anything like that exists for the Cleveland anyway.

[Jeff Kleiner]

... I suspect the cam's a roller...

Not a roller cam---as can be seen in the photo in post #1 there is no spider or links. I rebuilt a Boss 302 to factory specs some years ago; there was nothing down low. Putting your foot down <4,000 RPM was like stepping in a bucket of sh**! From 5,000 to 7,000 it would scream but you had to keep it there---if you let it drop down the RPM range waiting for it to come back up on the boil was kind of agonizing which didn't make it a very fun street car.

Jeff

[CES55N]

Hey Ryan check the suffix in the block a DOAE-J is usually a 70 and the DOAE-L was usually a 71 so hopefully your heads are closed chamber. Yea your cam is definitely not a roller, either a hydraulic or solid flat tappet. If you don't have a spec card or know how it's degreed you need find out or better yet just figure on replacing it with a hyd roller. Like say cam timing, fuel and ignition curves are critical. The TFS intake looks like it would work but I've never had my hands on one, best to give them a call. Actually its 429-460 distributors that interchange with Clevelands so a 460 efi dist would work. Also check out MPG Head Service and Cam Reaserch, Scott Main owns both has some great stuff for Clevelands, also knows how to grind a cam to make a Cleveland work. Good luck and keep us posted

[RocketDocRyan]

Looks like it's a J suffix block.

46863

Based on my previous research, I think I have the closed chambers. I've been acting on the assumption that I'd be replacing the cam, since it's probably either stock or much more aggressive than I want. I plan on keeping this thread updated going forward; I think it'll end up being my engine build thread.

[skullandbones]

Hi Rocket,

You might consider getting the engine in running order by pulling pan and checking bearings, etc. If you get the engine started on a stand you might be able to make a better decision about using it for your project. You could go one step further if your area has an engine dyno. You wouldn't be investing any time that would interfere with your actual build. But it sure would tell you whether it is special or something you don't want to pursue. I would be very curious to hear that thing. I have experienced one in a truck. It sounded amazing. Keep us up to date whatever you plan.

WEK.

[CES55N]

Yup 70 block, thats the good one, date code says built Dec 5 '69. Hopefully heads match

[RocketDocRyan]

If I can find the manifold and distributor hiding in the garage somewhere, I might try to get it on a dyno. I intend to rip it once it's in my garage instead of my mother-in-law's and get the cam specs, check the bearings and anything else I can see. I may need to pull the heads, too. My wife remembers that he spent a lot of time in the garage "honing" something to get more power. I'm praying he didn't try to do a DIY overbore, and was just porting the heads. I should be able to check the cylinder wall condition from underneath, so maybe I won't have to pull the heads off.

[RocketDocRyan]

Ok, got the head casting number and popped the valve cover off.

46939

Looks D0AE heads, so that's good.

46940

Some fairly burly looking roller rockers

46941

And triple valve springs to boot. The valvetrain looks pretty solid, so I should be able to stick just about any cam I want in there.

[CES55N]

yup you've got 70 heads that have been machined for screw in studs, good set-up as long as they were machined correctly. Rockers look to be older Cam Dynamics or Crane street versions, not bad. Valve springs are a dual with dampers, all looks like it should match, and pushrods appear to be black which would indicate that they are heat treated for use with the guide plates. Check to see if you have lash on several rockers, that would indicate a solid cam or if you can press down on pushrod side of the rockers and depress any of them it would be a hydraulic. All in all looks like pretty good piece

[MercuryCoupe]

New here, but the Cleveland is one of my things

Don't fear the Cleveland. (According to ford it's called the 335 engine) 2V or 4V heads, Ether are fine, just match the ports to the intake type (most are listed for 2V or 4V).
Sounds like someone did some work with the 4Vs. What size are the valves?

Don't forget that the Cleveland is the engine of choice for the Pantera. So there are a lot of mid engine oil pans available. Many with full on road race baffling. Will gain you a couple quarts extra of oil over a sumped pan.

Thanks to the Pantera, there are a lot of cool things made for the Cleveland, many made to fit in a tighter engine bay then the Daytona coupe.

The 335 series Clevelands use the exact same distributors as the 385 series 429/460 blocks. So you can grab a EFI distributor off a 90s 460 equipped ford truck (or even an econoline) for cheap.

As stated the bellhousing and motor mounts are exactly the same as the Windsors.

Unlike the Windsors, it's easy to find vintage 70s blocks for the Cleveland still. But if you want an upgrade, get yourself a Buttermore aluminum Cleveland block. This guy has redone the oil system and honestly made a block that will put a Windsor to shame, even a dart block.

Let's not forget that it is a Cleveland that holds the current Nascar speed record! Not a Windsor. And certainly not a damn chevy.

I will be dropping a Cleveland into the coupe I am ordering soon for sure.

[RocketDocRyan]

My current plan is a 429/460 cam position sensor, with a 36-1 crank wheel and either a Ford EEC-IV or MegaSquirt ECU. The harmonic balancer appears to be common between the Windsor and Cleveland, so I'm hoping to score one from a junkyard and build a CPS bracket, which should take care of fuel and spark. I have no idea how big the valves are- I would assume stock, but it's hard to say without opening it up and checking.

[MercuryCoupe]

My current plan is a 429/460 cam position sensor, with a 36-1 crank wheel and either a Ford EEC-IV or MegaSquirt ECU. The harmonic balancer appears to be common between the Windsor and Cleveland, so I'm hoping to score one from a junkyard and build a CPS bracket, which should take care of fuel and spark. I have no idea how big the valves are- I would assume stock, but it's hard to say without opening it up and checking.

I asked because one of the first smog changes made to the 4v heads was to reduce the valve size.

Distributor less is great, but you will have to decapitate a distributor to fill in the hole and run the oil pump.

I will have to look, but there is a company selling a decapitated distributor that provides a cam speed signal for EFI and direct fire

[MercuryCoupe]

http://dragonfabrication.com/product.php?product=DF200101

[RocketDocRyan]

The 429/460 series got DIS in the late 90s, so there's a cam position sensor available: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rnb-689-102. It says V6, but the application extends to the big blocks, too.

[xatudor]

If you looking at a new block or building from scratch, Summit sell a Ford aluminium Cleveland block from memory it was about $3500.

[MercuryCoupe]

If you looking at a new block or building from scratch, Summit sell a Ford aluminium Cleveland block from memory it was about $3500.

M-6010-Z351, but it's a Windsor block with provision for the Cleveland heads.

The Buttermore block is a Cleveland block with the oil system fixed and webs across the valley for strength.

[CHOTIS BILL]

My current plan is a 429/460 cam position sensor, with a 36-1 crank wheel and either a Ford EEC-IV or MegaSquirt ECU. The harmonic balancer appears to be common between the Windsor and Cleveland, so I'm hoping to score one from a junkyard and build a CPS bracket, which should take care of fuel and spark. I have no idea how big the valves are- I would assume stock, but it's hard to say without opening it up and checking.

I have a MagaSquirt V3.57 for sale that I was going to use but then purchased a Pro version because it handles stack injection better. It is MegaSquirt-III EMS system with MS3X expansion V3.57 assembled, MegaSquirt relay board assembled, 10' MegaSquirt wiring harness, and 10' MegaSquirt wiring harness for MS3X. All of it is new and never hooked up to power. It cost over $900 and I would like to get #500 + shipping. If interested I can be reached at 818.717.5694 or BLOMENICK@DELTATAU.COM

Bill Lomenick

[RocketDocRyan]

I popped the valve covers off and tried leaning on the lifters, and nothing budged. I even grabbed the nose of the rocker by the valve stem for extra leverage, and they were solid. One also had some lash, so I think that it's safe to say that it has a solid lifter cam in it. So, I'm adding a couple hundred to the budget for a milder cam, and hoping I can sell what's in there. Any takers? Installed, never run.

[RocketDocRyan]

Ok, in case anyone is interested 2 years later, the Clevo is in the aforementioned Jeep. No, it doesn't make sense, but it sounds cool. The cam is indeed a solid. A Comp 294S, in fact. Bigger than I'd like, but the price is right. I ended up getting a used Edelbrock Performer intake from Ebay, plus a $45 HEI dizzy from same. It functions, but I had to do some grinding to get it to clear the intake. I stuck an Edelbrock 1406 600CFM carb on top to round things out, and that got me a running engine. I used some Sanderson headers, and fabbed everything downstream myself. The accessory brackets were junkyard items from a 351M, heavily modified to clear the steering shaft and mate to the shorter deck block. I had to use a Milodon oil pan to clear the front axle, since factory rear sump pans are hard to find. Unfortunately, it's still huge in front, and will bump into the axle without some bump stop work. The front dipstick doesn't work, and the rear port in the oil pan sits in a divot in the driver side header collector. So no dipstick at the moment. But the cam is broken in, it sounds great, and I'm hoping to have it on the road this weekend. Driveshafts are done tomorrow, and with a solid day of work this weekend, I should be ready to start bedding the rings in.
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