rectangular rear lights [Archive]

Jeff Kleiner

10-14-2015, 05:14 PM

I've done a couple of cars for owners who preferred the rectangular lights.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Thomas/100_4808.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Aaron5171/100_5453.jpg

It just requires some simple bodywork. When using the Ron Francis harness which is set up for 4 rear lights with the single bulb rectangulars you'll have to incorporate a module with logic to override the brake light and give priority to the turn signal either by using a Signal Dynamics PentaStar for turn signal control ...

http://www.amazon.com/Signal-Dynamics-Penta-Star-Control-Module/dp/B00AC5J9ZA

Or by adding Reese Towpower trailer light converter:

http://www.amazon.com/Reese-Towpower-74209-Trailer-Converter/dp/B0008G1NNY

Cheers,
Jeff

chopthebass

10-15-2015, 08:15 AM

Thanks Jeff. Awesome.
I can't find the bodywork thread I mentioned, but I remember it involved shaping the body and not just modifying light holes. They built up fiber glass on the inside before re-shaping the rear wing. Is it different for mk4? Is it just a case of modifying the mounting holes?

skullandbones

10-15-2015, 08:33 AM

I saw the body mod you may have seen on Gumball's build thread. It did involve some reshaping of the mounting surface. He used a metal template to help him in the body filler shaping. I haven't seen Jeff's version yet.

BTW: if you do the rectangular lights, you might consider a third brake light. I have seen a few of the roadsters (ERAs, Superformance, and FFR) that had them. They were more difficult to see depending on the sunny conditions. At night is not an issue. Also, the ones I saw were probably regular incandescent bulbs. The LED are probably a lot brighter. I have the third light in both my roll bars at the top curve. I like that because it puts them at a level much higher than the roadsters tail lights. With todays tall cars and trucks it can be helpful.

Good luck,

WEK.

chopthebass

10-15-2015, 09:09 AM

The ********** rectangular lights have LED option. I am still unclear on a few things:

How many bulbs in the ********** unit?
The Penta Star module instructions that Jeff refers to show a running light, brake light AND a turn signal. I was expecting to see a way of achieving all three with two bulbs.

Jeff, any chance you can post a wiring diagram? Maybe modify the supplied penta star one? I'm not good with electrics.

Skull, I don't fancy a third brake light and I am hoping with LEDs they will be bright enough. I love the roll bar idea, but not sure I could neatly pull it off.

Jeff Kleiner

10-15-2015, 10:25 AM

Mk3 or Mk4 are the same as far as body mods; just some simple reshaping which I have not ever documented in any of my posts.

The blue car shown above was originally fitted with LEDs which the owner provided---visibility was very poor and we switched to incandescent.

The Pentastar running light option isn't used in our application. SD's instructions are easy to follow and tell you which of the module wires to connect to left front, right rear, brake light signal, etc. which works perfectly with a Ron Francis harness.

Jeff

chopthebass

10-15-2015, 10:58 AM

Thanks Jeff. The problem is the SD instructions!
They show wires going to front signals, rear signals, but also has wires going to running lights AND brake lights. Am I missing something here? I still don't know how many lights the rectangular unit has. If you can tell me this, I can speak to SD.

Boydster

10-15-2015, 01:18 PM

I believe all rectangular units are 1 bulb. They use an 1158. That's a 2 element lamp... one low watts and one hi watts.

The low will always be a running light and that's all it will ever be. Its about 6 or 7 watts or something like that. Install the Ron Francis running light wiring directly to the terminal for this element.

The hi is about 12 - 15 watts. This is used for brake and turn signal. Since the brake signal is constant and the turn signal flashes, if you tie them together on the same terminal, the brake will always over ride the TS.

So you need a very simple converter. When it detects both a brake signal and a TS, it removes the brake signal from that light to allow the TS to flash.
There are many converters to choose from. All you need is one that gives you the brake signal over ride. Should have brake input, L TS input, R TS input, L tail light output, R tail light output and grounds. Ignore other stuff.

If you want an LED bulb, you'll need an LED compatible flasher unit.

For a good LED, I like superbrightleds. Choose the one that will fit in the light assy with the most leds possible. Use the same color LED as the lens... red with red, etc.

I don't have my Roadster yet, but I've done a lot of research for this and I've done a few cars with full LED changeovers.

chopthebass

10-15-2015, 03:31 PM

Thanks Boydster. Is there a replacement compatible flasher unit that is plug and play?

MPTech

10-15-2015, 03:42 PM

Here's the post I did about 2 1/2 years ago when I did mine.
Installed my new rectangular / LED tail lights (http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/302030-installed-my-new-rectangular-led-tail-lights.html)

I REALLY like the looks of the rectangular lights, that's why I went with them. I requested my body/paint guy to smooth the pads to the contour of the Rectangular lights and he did a great job.

With all of this said, I am disappointed with the visibility and have had fellow club members tell me they are hard to see, especially in the bright sun-light.
When I tested them in my garage, they looked great, but the design of the vintage lens is not up to today's standards, even with the LEDs installed and the modifications to support dual-LEDs.

I also recently found these and I'm considering replacing mine with them. Shell Valley: Cobra Replica LED Tail Lights (http://www.shellvalley.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=537/category_id=156/mode=prod/prd537.htm)

Hanes Hot Rods: Lights Tail Rectangular LED Pair AC Shelby Cobra Replica HotRod ACE (http://www.haneshotrods.com/lights-tail-rectangular-led-pair-ac-shelby-cobra-replica-hotrod-ace/)

Here's another option (although the lens is a little less traditional).
Hot Rod: LED Taillights For Cobras - New Vision For An Old Tale (http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/interior-electrical/0711kc-led-taillights-for-cobras/)

Does anyone know what the FFR 289 tail lights look like? (LED?)

chopthebass

10-15-2015, 03:58 PM

MPTech, I just discovered the Shell Valley ones and have ordered a pair! I just need to determine if I need a new flasher unit. They told me if the fronts are left incandescent I may be ok.

Jeff Kleiner

10-15-2015, 05:03 PM

Does anyone know what the FFR 289 tail lights look like? (LED?)

The ones on the blue car I showed above actually are a set from a FFR 289; identical to the ones on the gray car which came from **********. As I mentioned a couple of posts ago the included LEDs were somewhat less than stellar.

MPTech, I just discovered the Shell Valley ones and have ordered a pair! I just need to determine if I need a new flasher unit. They told me if the fronts are left incandescent I may be ok.

What are you going to use for control? If you go with a Signal Dynamics unit there is no flasher---it's all done within the module and it doesn't care whether the lights are LED or incandescent.

Jeff

MPTech

10-15-2015, 05:37 PM

Jeff, I tried to find some info on the FFR tail lights, but couldn't find them in their products catalog.
Do you think the "less than stellar" performance is due to the lens or the bulb? Are they using a replacement incandescent style LED or is it the flat panel LED? Also, is a single bulb or separate top & bottom?

I liked the design of the links I provided, they are the flat style and almost a surface mount setup.

This is one of my planned winter mods, so the timing is good.

chopthebass, can you report back when yours arrive?

Boydster

10-15-2015, 10:38 PM

http://www.bulbtown.com/EF32RL_ELECTRONIC_FLASHER_p/ef32rl.htm

This is a LED safe flasher that matches the pins on the RF wiring harness. As I said before, I don't have a roadster yet, so haven't actually done it. But it should work well.

chopthebass

10-16-2015, 08:21 AM

MP Tech - Sure I will let you know what I think when they arrive.

Jeff - The Shell Valley ones have three zones of LEDs and three wires. Brake light, turn signal and tail light. So I don't think I need the module.

Boydster - thanks - just what I need!

MPTech

10-16-2015, 09:22 AM

three zones of LEDs and three wires.

3 zones? does it have an upper light and a lower light, separated? (I know a lot of the original lens only had 1 bulb)
doesn't it need 4 wires? (or were not not counting ground)

chopthebass

10-16-2015, 09:40 AM

MPTech

10-16-2015, 11:34 AM

separate banks of LEDs, so it can replicate what the two supplied round lights will do

That's what I was hoping to hear! I've seen lots of HotRod tail lights that are now being offered in LED versions, glad to see someone saw the need for our roadsters!
Pending your evaluation, I'll be adding a set to my Winter Mods, been wanting to improve them for a while.

Thanks for starting this post, chopthebass!

Gumball

10-16-2015, 01:01 PM

Here are a few pics from my bodywork thread on doing the reshaping - not too extensive, but it helps to build-up the area behind the lamp pads before removing any material from the outside so that you don't burn through.

Here was my pattern - a Kirkham that I had in the shop while doing my bodywork:

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/IMG_20130615_172704_zps236170dd.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/IMG_20130615_172704_zps236170dd.jpg.html)

I made templates out of some scrap metal - these were based on the shape of the rubber seal that is on the outside of the lamp bezel. Here is one of the templates on the un-modified pad:

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/IMG_20130615_172641_zpsb7bd68e0.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/IMG_20130615_172641_zpsb7bd68e0.jpg.html)

Building up the fiberglass on the inside of the body - I added about a 1/4" or so of thickness at the top and bottom of the original tail lamp pad area:

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/FillingHoles4_zpse2ea376a.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/FillingHoles4_zpse2ea376a.jpg.html)

After some initial grinding just to get the shape roughed in somewhat:

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/RecontouringPads4_zps9840c117.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/RecontouringPads4_zps9840c117.jpg.html)

Final shaping and filler:

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/FinalSanding3_zps5030f4f3.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/FinalSanding3_zps5030f4f3.jpg.html)

Finished product:

http://i845.photobucket.com/albums/ab15/CCRsAC/Graduation/IMG_20150614_172732177_zpsydikizfi.jpg (http://s845.photobucket.com/user/CCRsAC/media/Graduation/IMG_20150614_172732177_zpsydikizfi.jpg.html)

chopthebass

10-16-2015, 01:14 PM

No problem MPTech. I will update you when I receive them.

Awesome Chris. Thanks

Jeff Kleiner

10-16-2015, 01:37 PM

I spoke to Shell Valley and they said they have separate banks of LEDs, so it can replicate what the two supplied round lights will do. I suspect there is a ground too. But he did confirm it will give me brake light, signal and tail-light. Hope I didn't get that wrong!
I can confirm once I receive them.

I've spoken in person to Dana at Shell Valley about their LED lamps also. Of course they will serve all 3 functions but the lights themselves only know if the wire for low intensity (running lights) or high intensity (turn and brake lights) is activated---they don't know whether it is for brake lights or turn signal. Without some sort of priority logic in the circuit the brake lights will override the turn signal...

Jeff

chopthebass

10-16-2015, 02:37 PM

Interesting Jeff. They said there is three wires coming out, and these will be used like three different bulb connections. Confusing! So I may need a Penta Star thingy after all?

chopthebass

10-16-2015, 02:47 PM

oldguy668

10-16-2015, 03:46 PM

When I picked up my FIA kit, FFR only had one LED taillight left (who buys an odd number?). I waited for them to get stock for 6 months. When my patience ran out, I googled the number stamped on the package and came up with this:

46667

I found a company called Rodworx that has them in stock for $50 each. I bought one to "complete my set". They are very bright in the dark, but I have not tested in the sunlight. They will require the use of a "trailer convertor", as Jeff has explained already.

https://www.rodworx.com/shop/1963-67-shelby-cobra-led-tail-light-assembly/

Jeff Kleiner

10-18-2015, 09:32 AM

I just phoned again, and I misunderstood what he was telling me. There are two wires plus ground. I will have to wait until I receive them before I can figure out the connections to the harness.

So Jeff can you tell me what the standard FFR configuration is? There are two lights - is one a dual filament bulb with two individual connections? And the other is a running light?

The standard rear configuration has 4 dual element lamps. When the lights are on all 4 have the low intensity element on (i.e.; 4 taillights). When you step on the brakes whether the taillights are on or off the upper lamp on each side will have the bright high intensity element on. With a turn signal activated the lower lamp on that side will have the high intensity element flashing. Let's say that you have the left turn signal activated and step on the brakes---with the standard configuration both upper lamps will be on bright and the lower left lamp will be flashing brightly. The lower right lamp will be off. The same scenario with the single bulb rectangular lamps would result in both sides being on bright and because the constant brake light signal would override it there would be no turn signal flashing visible. If you incorporate a unit to provide turn signal priority logic (such as a trailer light converter or Signal Dynamics controller) the result would be that the left lamp would be flashing brightly and the right lamp would be bright constantly. Just like what we're used to seeing on most daily drivers (except those with amber turn signal indicators). Clear as mud now?

By the way, if you opt to use one of the trailer light converters be aware that some of them will not function with LEDs. The ones that are compatible usually require their own power source.

Jeff

chopthebass

10-19-2015, 08:15 AM

Ah now it makes sense Thanks Jeff.

I took your advice and bought a powered trailer converter (3 wire to two wire). Comes with its own fused power wire that connects directly to battery. So I can make the bottom light be just the tail light and the top becomes brake/signal. Hope it works!

rich grsc

10-19-2015, 10:33 AM

MarkP, you know we're friends right? I have to say your lights suck big time, in daylight they are almost impossible to see. There is absolutely no way I would run LED bulbs if they are all like Marks. I was thinking of switching over to LED, then saw how little light they put out in daylight. Maybe Mark just has a poor combination of lights, but it is extremely dangerous as is.

Gumball

10-19-2015, 12:17 PM

I'm using regular filament bulbs in my lights and have had people tell me they are fine in the day - although like any small light on a sports car, a bit harder to see in direct sunlight. I made enclosures for behind them and both sides run two twin-filament bulbs. The tops act as running and brake lights and the lowers are turn signals only. That way, I always have two solid brake lights on and the turn signal does not effect that operation.

Note that on the Lucas lenses, the lower part of the lens is designed to be a reflector, but it does allow sufficient light to pass through.

I do think that part of my success with this set-up is that I polished the inside of my aluminum enclosure.

MPTech

10-19-2015, 12:34 PM

Rich, my feelings aren't hurt and I really appreciate the feedback.
Chris, have a Cobra guy follow you closely through the twisties on a sunny day and see what the answer is. At night, my lights are great!

I can tell you in my dark garage, where I tested them, they were WAY bright. But on the road in daylight, I've had 4 or 5 of my Cobra friends tell me they are NOT good.
(for the record, I don't believe polishing the aluminum enclosure will overcome the design on the small tail-light with a lower reflector.)
Also, the difference between the running light (low) and brake/turn-signal is barely significant.
I've also followed behind a couple Superformance and Hurricane with the rectangular lights and it's not good either, can't tell if it's better than mine or not.
I installed (2) 36-LED Red 100 Degree units per side and split the upper / lower lights. That should be MORE than enough light, color, and angle to sufficiently light these housings.

I'm still searching for a better solution and not ruling out 3rd brakelight for next cruising season. (I'm not a fan of it, but I'd hate to have someone eat my rear-bumper even more).

Gumball

10-19-2015, 01:07 PM

Yeah- guess I shouldn't have asked my brother who drives a '61 MGA with single bulb tail lamps for his opinion..... (LOL)

chopthebass

10-19-2015, 01:09 PM

MPT,
No doubt my Shell Valley ones will be ****e too then! Maybe its the whole lens design that doesn't lend itself to using LEDs. Someone needs to develop a proper solution to this problem. Maybe I will work on it.

skullandbones

10-19-2015, 01:18 PM

Just to follow up with my first post: here are some pics of my third tail lights. They are mounted in the upper curve of the roll bars. I have two so it makes it perfect for this application. They seem to be at the right height for the larger cars and trucks that we encounter on the roads nowadays. I think they are probably about the same level as some of the third tail lights seen on many DD but not as high as the ones mounted close to the roofs of those cars. It would allow you to "have your cake and eat it too" as the dot LEDs are almost unnoticeable except when they are activated by the brake pedal switch (using the already provided third tail light lead in the body harness). In the pics, the lights are not showing white actually. They are very intense even in daylight conditions. I got them at O'Reily's on their electrical accessory rack. I think they were about $10 ea. The cool thing is they looked flat (rubber gasket) but when I installed them, the gasket wraps around to fit the curve of the bar. It couldn't have worked better if I had planned it but it was a little bit of luck.

BTW: I like the rectangular lights. Not to put them down but in certain conditions (e.g. I almost backended a roadster on a run. The Sun light was behind me around 1 PM), they almost disappear until you focus on them. Luckily my passenger saw it first. I bailed out to the left and missed him easily. It seems to be a combination of size, location, and intensity. Not saying all are like that but I have encountered three or four like that.

Thanks,

WEK.:cool:

chopthebass

10-19-2015, 01:31 PM

Hey Skull,

Do you have pics showing the LED unit you used? And how you installed it? Maybe PM me

Thanks!

MPTech

10-19-2015, 04:19 PM

Someone needs to develop a proper solution to this problem. Maybe I will work on it.

Yea, I think it's the lens, not the LEDs. if someone could make a lens that would fit inside a stock Rectangular bezel, that would be GREAT!

I even thought of seeing if a stock lens could be machined flat on the inside to remove the reflective angles, but I think the machining would leave the surface to rough to see-through clearly.

Seems like such a simple thing for someone that made lens to produce and sell. A simple red lens with no interior reflecting and 2 separate LEDs.

Jeff Kleiner

10-19-2015, 05:02 PM

Or---simply quit putting LEDs behind a lense designed for incandescents...

Jeff

rlampman

10-19-2015, 11:59 PM

I even thought of seeing if a stock lens could be machined flat on the inside to remove the reflective angles, but I think the machining would leave the surface to rough to see-through clearly.

I was thinking of this too. Wonder if you machined it down inside and then polished it if the light would pass better.
Rod

rich grsc

10-20-2015, 04:57 PM

The reflective angles are there for a reason, stop trying to reinvent the wheel :rolleyes:
See post #37

Jeff Kleiner

10-20-2015, 05:55 PM

Just to throw some gas on the LED vs. incandescent and lens design debate---In real life I am a residential designer and builder. I recently read an article in one of the trade publications discussing the retrofitting of LED lamps (which I dislike almost as much as CFs) into incandescent fixtures and how it is generally not a direct swap. The same points regarding the dissimilar direction of light, refraction and reflection between the two applies directly to what we've just been talking about. Here's an excerpt:

To understand how LEDs differ from their conventional (filament) light-source counterparts, you first need to know how they work. Diodes are polarized semiconducting chips that generate photons through electroluminescence, or via an electric current. Incandescent lamps create light through radiance or heat.

Light distribution is another distinction between the types of sources. While conventional lamps distribute light spherically, in 360 degrees, LEDs have a 180-degree distribution. “Because of that, the way that we do our optics has to be tailored to that specific character of the light,” says Peter Ngai, vice president of research and development at Acuity Brands Lighting.

An LED’s directional, forward-throw of light means retrofitting a conventional fixture isn’t a matter of simply switching the source. For example, reflectors intended for an incandescent or compact fluorescent lamp would be rendered useless, in part because LEDs aren’t sending any backlight for the reflectors to redirect. In most retrofit cases, Ngai says, “the distribution will be very different. In order to properly retrofit an existing luminaire with LEDs, one would need to replace prior reflectors, lenses, or other internal optics with new designs that are appropriate for LED sources.”

Just thought you guys might find it interesting.

Cheers,
Jeff

skullandbones

10-21-2015, 11:32 PM

If anyone is interested, the light pollution thing from residential to commercial misuse of lighting is a global disaster (satellite pics show how bad) . The LED advancement has not helped. See IDA, light pollution and you will get an eye full. I'm into amateur astronomy so light domes around the areas really affect our enjoyment of the dark skies.

Chop you wanted particulars so here they are. Optronics makes this LED marker/clearance kit. It says life time warranty. We will see. Part #: MCL12RK. I was wrong the hole is larger than I remembered. It is 3/4 so having the bar off and doing it on a drill press is much easier than with the bar on. I think I used a step drill and went in very small increments checking the fit every time. I got a very nice pressure fit that way. After lengthening the pigtails, I ran a wire hanger through to run the wires. It gets more compliments than I ever expected.

Good luck,

WEK.

chopthebass

10-22-2015, 08:11 AM

Thanks Skull.

chrisarella

10-23-2015, 02:31 PM

Sounds like a similar debate to when everyone was retrofitting re-based HID bulbs into Halogen housings and claiming better lighting (NOT!). One difference is we're talking about rear lamps that don't require as much reflection/refraction to throw the light further. Also, if you're using an LED board instead of a retrofit bulb then the reflector is not as important if the LED is facing out and puts out a wide enough angle.

Another thing to think about: not all LEDs are created equal. I'm thinking if someone started putting CREE LEDs in their tail lamp boards there wouldn't be any issue at all with the light output. CREEs are used in high-end headlights and offroad lightbars. The 5W CREE LEDs throw out an insane amount of light compared to traditional diodes, and better than other high-quality SMDs!

Does anyone know of a good source for CREE boards that can be fitted into these Lucas L542 Tail Lamps? Probably need to think about a heat-sink too.. they do generate more heat that typical LEDs.

A cobra guy

11-09-2015, 03:49 PM

Chris, You are right that the CREE styles are extremely bright. We use them in our micro 3rd brake light.
We also have 1157 LED replacement bulbs that our customers love.
They put out red light which goes through the red lens just fine. I have had them on my Cobra for years. If some one would like to volunteer to test a set in their rectangular lens I'll send them out at no charge on the following condition. If you like them you can keep them & I'll bill you $40 for the bulbs only (10% off & no freight). If you want to return them whether you like them or not let me know & I'll send a return envelope so it won't cost you a thing.
They normally sell for $45.00 a pair. They are also taller than a conventional 1157 at 2.25" from base to tip. A fair and honest evaluation would be nice.
I will honor this offer to the first 3 who are interested. Based on their feedback perhaps we will offer a special to Forum members.