F150 Coyote in FFR#48 NASA ST2

[johngeorge]

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3206.JPG?m=1442975859

Installed a 2013 F150 5.0L coyote engine into FFR#48!

The last 2 weeks have been frantic activity, I decided to keep up with everyone else in ST2 I need more torque, how to do that easiest? change the engine with one from a 2013 F150 I found at a local junkyard for $2500 with only 19K miles on it. The F150 has the same basic engine as what is in the new Mustangs, except for the cams and intake making more torque and less power. Ford has it rated at 360HP and 380TQ at the flywheel, and with 15% drive train loss that will put me right at the numbers I need. The code name for this engine platform is called the coyote, and not only does it have dual overhead cams, variable valve timing, but also 4 valves per cylinder and is run by a highly customizable Ford control pack though an OBD2 diagnostic port.

The fun started Labor Day Monday Sept 7, fellow racer Pat McMahon came to help remove the old engine and clean the engine bay from the oil residue from 2014 Nationals.

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_2980.JPG?m=1441720683

Friday was picking up parts form Fortes in Framingham, junkyard engine pickup in Winchendon and then drive down to Factory Five (near the Cape) where Jim Schenck helped me convert the car to accept the new super wide engine. My 2003 chassis needed updates done to it to accept the new engine bring it to current chassis standards, relocating the steering shaft, and modifying the foot boxes on both sides. A lot of work was done over the weekend, with the final result of new engine in the racecar. I was missing the clutch fork and could not install the transmission until that was procured. Pat was kind enough to come down to FFR to help with the conversion along with John Dean welding the new steering shaft mount.

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3011.JPG?m=1442197485

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3053.JPG?m=1442198309

The next week and weekend was finishing the car up, installing the new engine management harness, plumbing up the coolant hoses, power steering, headers, new stainless steel side pipes, and changing to a road race oil pan.

[johngeorge]

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3205.JPG?m=1442975845

Went for a drive around the neighborhood 9/22/15! 16 days after the old engine came out! Thanks to Dave Smith and Factory Five Racing for lending a hand in the install, and especially Jim and Pat for taking time away from their families wrenching on the car. I’m ready for the Palmer, MA race this weekend!

Pics from the conversion: Changing engine to Coyote (http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/index.php/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote?page=1)

All Parts needed for conversion are listed here: http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/wordpress/ffr48-car-setup/part-numbers/

[johngeorge]

One thing to note, F150 coyote has a diffferent timing chain cover, and the Alternator mount is lower and further out. I initially bought the Ford Racing alternator and could not use it as the belt did not lign up. I ended up using the junkyard alternator from F150 which allowed me to use the same stock belt length of 64" out of the F150.

The power steering bracket I made from a template that Ron Everitt had and bolted right to the same AC bolts. The belt does not have a tensioner (I dont like that, but it is what it is) and I had to get a 34.5" belt for it. I had a hell of a time trying to find AN fittings for the power steering pump and ended up using the stock 1992 Mustang high pressure power steering hose, bent the ends a little to fit and it works great.

Things to note: the GM regulator has 2 barb fittings on one end, and one on the other. The 2 fittings end make sure the bigger fitting is the fuelpump end, and the smaller goes to the return. I had them backwards!

The other mistake I made was putting the Mass Air meter backwards in the tube, the engine would fire up then die right away. Swapping it around fixed everything! The distance from the throttle body seems to be very important, make sure its at least 6-8 inches away as per Ford instructions. If its closer the car hunts and hesitates when you press on the throttle.

I also connected the keepalive (PCM 70pin conector) pin 62 to 12V constant (I have a kill switch in my car that killed power hard.)

[johngeorge]

more pics:

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3013.JPG?m=1442197512

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3018.JPG?m=1442197633

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3048.JPG?m=1442198199

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3077.JPG?m=1442198852

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3090.JPG?m=1442199071

[johngeorge]

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3110.JPG?m=1442583760

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3111.JPG?m=1442583765

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3112.JPG?m=1442583770

[DaleG]

Nice!

[kabacj]

Well done John!

The other guys in ST2 better watch out! First it was aero, now motor...

Good luck at Palmer. I wish I could join you.

John

[Mark Dougherty]

good luck John we will be watching

[Mike N]

John. How does the calibration in the Ford racing controls pack feel with the F150 engine? As you pointed out above there are cam and compression ratio differences.

[johngeorge]

Mike, I only have my old engine to compare with, and the coyote transformed the car, it really feels so OEM its nuts. coyote idles so smooth, super quiet, and throttle response seems to be better. We shall see this weekend how it does on track.

[Mike N]

Thanks John. Any further updates would be great. I have an early 50's truck project that I want to drop an F150 coyote into but was stuck on what system to use to run it. The AEM Infinity would work but at about twice the price of the Ford package so if the Ford racing pack works that well it's a no brainer.

[6t8dart]

So, even though the two engines are different, does the Ford Racing pack fit, all plugs the same? No black smoke from too much fuel?

[johngeorge]

Ford Control pack for coyote works on any coyote, F150 or Mustang. It ran super great! no issues whatsoever with the engine. The power steering that Im using did have issues though, not sure why and I changed both pump and steering rack with no change. Random turns I would loose power steering, then it came back randomly. Very hard to drive a race like that. Unfortuantely when the car was in the pits power steering had no issues, just on track at full speed. Ill have to research this further.

I also had low oil pressure under braking and in high-g turns. I tried adding an additional quard (9 in total) and same effect. So, I've purchased the big accusump (3qt 22" x 4.25" round) along with their 35-40psi electric solonoid valve and will plumb that in hoping to resolve my oiling issues.

[johngeorge]

Thanks John. Any further updates would be great. I have an early 50's truck project that I want to drop an F150 coyote into but was stuck on what system to use to run it. The AEM Infinity would work but at about twice the price of the Ford package so if the Ford racing pack works that well it's a no brainer.

Use the Ford Control Pack!! it works and works well.

[Mike N]

Thanks John. One less thing to figure out. Can you share a little more detail on the power steering pump? Is that the F150 piece or aftermarket?

Now if only there was a similar option for the 6R80 trans. Looks like the AODE / 4R70W is the only current option with an aftermarket trans controller.

[bansheekev]

The power steering that Im using did have issues though, not sure why and I changed both pump and steering rack with no change. Random turns I would loose power steering, then it came back randomly. Very hard to drive a race like that. Unfortuantely when the car was in the pits power steering had no issues, just on track at full speed. Ill have to research this further.

Check pulley ratio's to see what RPM you are turning the power steering pump under race conditions (the Mustang engine is easily capable of 7500+ RPM - not sure about the F150 though). You may be over the RPM range that the power steering pump wants to work in. I used the power steering setup from KRC for the Coyote as it runs off of the water pump and even at 7500 RPM engine speed the pump never sees more than 5500 RPM. It uses a 4.25" water pump pulley and 6" power steering pump pulley so it is significantly underdriven.

Kevin

[Mike N]

Kevin. Is it this kit? http://www.krcpower.com/ecommerce/complete-ford-boss-302-coyote-block-mounted-power-steering-pump-and-pulley-kit.asp

[johngeorge]

Power steering pump is out of a 2004 mustang A1 Cardone 20281P1, and after talking with KRC yesterday they tend to believe the feed hose from the reservoir to the power steering pump is getting collapsed. KRC said power steering pumps can pull over 20psi of vacuum and need a very rigid 5/8 hose to do so, you cannot use normal hose like I used!!!!!

Jim @ Factory Five used a Gates red 315psi hose from his reservoir to the pump without issue on the coyote IRS car, gonna switch to that hose

[bansheekev]

Kevin. Is it this kit? http://www.krcpower.com/ecommerce/complete-ford-boss-302-coyote-block-mounted-power-steering-pump-and-pulley-kit.asp

Yes, that is what I used although I also added their cast iron pump (it's their own from scratch design) and swapped out the flow valve fitting on the pump to the smallest one they make. Works great. Only challenge is finding a place where the reservoir is high enough to gravity feed the pump since the pump is much higher on the motor (level with water pump). I wound up with it mounted above the radiator right next to the Coyote radiator reservoir tank.

Kevin

[bansheekev]

Power steering pump is out of a 2004 mustang A1 Cardone 20281P1, and after talking with KRC yesterday they tend to believe the feed hose from the reservoir to the power steering pump is getting collapsed. KRC said power steering pumps can pull over 20psi of vacuum and need a very rigid 5/8 hose to do so, you cannot use normal hose like I used!!!!!

Jim @ Factory Five used a Gates red 315psi hose from his reservoir to the pump without issue on the coyote IRS car, gonna switch to that hose

I was told the same thing on the feed hose. I read the specs closely of the hose I chose to be sure it met the vacuum requirements. Mine isn't a track car though so you are in a total different situation with the extended high rpm runs. Hope the hose does the trick!

Kevin

[R Thomas]

As usual John, great info. I didn't see anything in your post about the rest of the drive line, any changes needed behind the engine to accomplish the swap?

[DaleG]

The PS reservoir is vented to atmosphere, right?

[skullandbones]

Hi John,

Is the engine going to alter your corner weights and front/rear weight ratio significantly? Just curious to see how it made a difference. Do you anticipate any advantages or disadvantages on the track? We wantabe racers like to know these things.

Thanks,

WEK.

[johngeorge]

I havent had the chance to really scale it just yet (at the track I had to add ballast as the new engine is about 30lb lighter then old. to make my minumum 2600lb limit.) The spring rates were changed from 550lb/400lb to 700lb front, and 550lb rear more for downforce then anything as it was too soft before, and with this change the car was oversteering. Its hard to gauge the balance as the power steering on/off issue got me all screwed up.

I plan to scale the car after I install the Accusump hopefully this weekend. I go to the dyno on Thursday this week.

[johngeorge]

As usual John, great info. I didn't see anything in your post about the rest of the drive line, any changes needed behind the engine to accomplish the swap?

The only driveline thing I had to do is lengthen the driveshaft from 10" to 13" which a local driveshaft shop did for me. The rest is all the same stuff I had before, 8.8 rearend with 3.08 gears.

[Bhhughes]

John, thanks for sharing your experiences. As time passes and more Coyote engines end up on the "pre-owned" market, the tips that you provided for getting them to work will be increasingly valuable.

[johngeorge]

Relocating the power steering reservoir and changing out the kinked line with same hose that was used by FFR in their coyote powered car did nothing to fix my power steering. It is still messed up and not functioning at all! Will work on it over the winter as the race season is all done this year.

[johngeorge]

The power steering pump was worn out at Palmer when we changed it but had the same 'crimped' hose in place. After changing and relocating the reservoir/hose the pump was not changed, thus that is still the bad part.

I ended up buying the KRC Coyote steel pump/bracket kit 66302050, and the ALUMINUM FLOW VALVE, -6 MALE , ID:6 25306000 in case the power steering is too light, can change out the flow valve reducing the flow giving more feel. Will see how that works with race tires, I may not need to replace the stock flow valve with the ID:6 version.

[stack]

John

Have you got it on a Dyno yet? Curious to see how the F150 engine performs with the ford racing control pack. Wonder how much power is lost due to the cam differences. After you started this tread i started looking for F150 coyote engines. they are easy to find and I have a line on one for 2300. has 20k miles

stack

[bansheekev]

John,

If you find you need to drop below a #6, I have an aluminum #5 (PN:253050000) you can have.

On my street Coyote powered MKIV running 255 Kuhmo XS's in front and the KRC 13.5cc cast iron pump I started with a #5 (2.03gpm) then dropped to a #4 (1.66gpm). The #4 is perfect for street but then again I'm not jerking/sawing the wheel back and forth nor on slicks.

Kevin


The power steering pump was worn out at Palmer when we changed it but had the same 'crimped' hose in place. After changing and relocating the reservoir/hose the pump was not changed, thus that is still the bad part.

I ended up buying the KRC Coyote steel pump/bracket kit 66302050, and the ALUMINUM FLOW VALVE, -6 MALE , ID:6 25306000 in case the power steering is too light, can change out the flow valve reducing the flow giving more feel. Will see how that works with race tires, I may not need to replace the stock flow valve with the ID:6 version.

[johngeorge]

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/albums/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/dezracingdyno_ffr48.JPG?m=1447782637

full power is in red, and detuned to make ST2 is in blue.

We limited HP by not allowing the throttle to open fully, 81% is wide open, dropped it to 46% to make sure HP is not above 325hp - max HP allowed on 275's in NASA ST2 with a 2600lb minimum weight.

What I want and we are still working with the dyno guy talking to SCT and Ford Racing to get throttle closing based on RPM, so it is wide open before 4300RPM, then clamp it to 46% from 4300RPM - dropoff below 320HP, then wide open after that. That is ideal and a great way to limit HP with tune and allows me to keep the torque at 382TQ. On a side note if I run 245 tires I can have 342HP! maybe that is the ticket for high horsepower tracks like WatkinsGlen and VIR.

This is from FORD:
There is an array for rpms vs. throttle position. It is FNETCTPMAX.

There are settings for ETC_APS_RMP1 and ETC_APS_RMP2. Those both need to be set to 1023. Re-setting those values will allow the throttle settings to be adjusted.

[johngeorge]

Installed the KRC power steering kit for coyote including their steel pump and the #6 volume restrictor for better feel. Here are the part#s
KRC 25306000 ALUMINUM FLOW VALVE, -6 MALE, ID:6
KIT 66302050 BOSS 302 BLOCK MOUNT KIT W/ CASTIRON PU

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3660.JPG?m=1448281033

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3676.JPG?m=1448283596

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3673.JPG?m=1448283569

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/Changing-engine-to-Coyote/IMG_3672.JPG?m=1448283564

[DaleG]

Only potential issue I see is the feed from the reservoir to the pump; should be more vertical than horizontal from all I've read: http://www.pscmotorsports.com/pdf/tech/reservoir_tips.pdf

Cheers, Dale

[johngeorge]

OK finally got #48 on the road after winter upgrades (wilwood brakes, ABS, IRS) and was able to test the SCT coyote tune and guess what! I got the drive by wire system to work how I want it to based on the throttle vs rpm table. Before 4200RPM, its wide open throttle (81%) then 4200RPM till red line it now closes the throttle to 46% limiting my HP to 325hp!

How did I do this? Had to set in the SCT software WOP=WOT Start to 1020, WOP=WOT End to 1020 and that enables the "Max Throttle at RPM" table to work!

[edwardb]

Very cool. Read the entry in your website with more info about your first drive. You're the first customer I've heard of with the new IRS actually on the road. Congratulations and sounds like you're real happy with it. Can't wait to get mine out there.

[johngeorge]

Went to the dyno! http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/wordpress/2016/03/31/dyno-march-26-2016/

[johngeorge]

Only potential issue I see is the feed from the reservoir to the pump; should be more vertical than horizontal from all I've read: http://www.pscmotorsports.com/pdf/tech/reservoir_tips.pdf

Cheers, Dale

I ended up changing the power steering reservoir mounting once again, this time attached to the engine itself instead on frame, and using AN fittings with no hose. Will see how this ends up working. The hose I had on before kept loosening up the AN fitting due to the engines rocking, this way the tank is mounted to engine and should stop all my issues. Will see if the AN fittings are able to support the tank.

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/New-to-me-coyote-assembly-%2B-dry-sump-/IMG_5674.JPG?m=1463872740

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/New-to-me-coyote-assembly-%2B-dry-sump-/IMG_5676.JPG?m=1463872759

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/New-to-me-coyote-assembly-%2B-dry-sump-/IMG_5705.JPG?m=1464086000

http://www.johngeorgeracing.com/gallery/var/resizes/ffr4706build/New-to-me-coyote-assembly-%2B-dry-sump-/IMG_5706.JPG?m=1464086017

[Mike N]

I'll be surprised if the fittings don't loosen from the vibration. A couple of simple braces to form more of a tripod would work pretty well. I can see one bolt you might be able to use.

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