Drawn Per-the-Print: Entries that follow the template

[Bill_H]

There have been lots of great designs posted here, but many of them have too many eye-catching distortions (a.k.a. "cheats") like giant wheels, super-low ride heights, and no clearance for the internal components (transmission!). They look good as concepts, but won't fit on the real chassis without a lot of work. Let's see who can make a top-notch design that FFR can put right into production.

This thread is for posting entries that follow the FFR template. They don't have to be drawn on the original PDF files from FFR, but they do have to match the template profile. Since Dave Smith has said some specific parts of the template can be changed, some MINOR tweaks can be done here:

Entries MUST follow:

Ride Height
Tire size (overall diameter)
Wheelbase
Width
Rear transmission length
Engine keep-out zone
Driver/rollbar height within 3 inches of the template (because Dave said it could be changed)


Bonus points for:

Driver height exactly as provided
Keeping the front radiator and having appropriate openings for it
Having appropriate vents for the intercooler
Legal placement of headlights/taillights
Realistic-sized doors
Realistic approach/departure angles on the overhangs
Body panels that can be made from 1-piece molds
Not having anything that would make it flunk a DMV inspection


Orthographic projection views (top/front/side/rear) will probably work best here, especially if you overlay the template profile.

[Bill_H]

Oh, and I never said this thread wouldn't be a little self-serving :cool:

1818

[thebeerbaron]

I just want to say that I think your avatar sums up this entire contest perfectly. In a good way :)

[D2W]

Bill_H, what is the overall height of your design?

[Colvindesign]

What is the mandated wheel size?

Are aftermarket wheels not allowed?

[readymix]

What is the mandated wheel size?

Are aftermarket wheels not allowed?

Wheel size shouldn't matter, I would conform to the stock tire diameter and circumference.
Assuming the STi wheel and tire combo (which is common for aftermarket WRX as well as stock STi)
Tire Diameter: 25 inches
Tire Circumference: 78.5 inches
Tire size is 225/45/17 on a 17x7.5 for 2004, and 17x8 for 2005+ STi. That tire size works for the WRX speedometer.

[Colvindesign]

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/1319/nzra2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/nzra2.jpg/)

I lowered the driver, otherwise nothing else changed. I made the legacy wheels the same size as the template drawing.

[Colvindesign]

with roof,
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/4924/nzra1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/146/nzra1.jpg/)

isometric w/o roof
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/8945/nzra3.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/nzra3.png/)

isometric with roof
http://img585.imageshack.us/img585/3402/nzra4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/585/nzra4.jpg/)

[readymix]

So for your drawing, I would reduce the wheel size so that you have 4" of sidewall+tread top on either side of 17" of wheel

[Colvindesign]

So the car MUST be designed with 17 inch wheels?

Isn't this taking "stick to the template" to the extreme? What if the builder buys a WRX with 19 inch wheels?

[riptide motorsport]

I would say tires and rims wouldnt matter as they dont in the real world.........you can put alot of diferent combinations on any car.

[Hiryu]

Here were my first two submissions. Both of them use a lower and somewhat more foward driver position than the template, but otherwise everything else is adhered to. My upcoming submissions adhere to also the driver position.

http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X2Final/X2SideOpen.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X2Final/X2SideXRay.jpg

http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X3Final/X3SideHighOpenLarge.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/X3Final/X3SideTransparent.jpg

Mike

[readymix]

So the car MUST be designed with 17 inch wheels?

Isn't this taking "stick to the template" to the extreme? What if the builder buys a WRX with 19 inch wheels?

NO, I said the exact opposite. I used the 17's as an example because the tire size on them is common to the WRX, the TIRE DIAMETER is 25 inches. The circle that you draw for the wheel and tire on your drawings needs to represent a 25" diameter circle. What you do inside that 25" diameter circle is up to you. But the outside tire edge has to be 25 inches diameter. If you want to use 20" wheels in there, go ahead, your sidewall + tread on either side will have to be 2.5". If you want to use 22" wheels, good luck finding tires with 1.5" sidewall...but that is what you'd need. Wheel size does NOT matter, as long as the TIRE diameter is 25"

[readymix]

For reference, I run 18x8 wheels with a 225/40/18 tire. The overall diameter of the tire is still 25 inches (well, 25.1, but there's a little give here.) That is what you need to draw for, 25" total diameter for the rollers.

[Bill_H]

Bill_H, what is the overall height of your design?

Based on the template grid layout, it looks like it is about 46".

[Bill_H]

For reference, I run 18x8 wheels with a 225/40/18 tire. The overall diameter of the tire is still 25 inches (well, 25.1, but there's a little give here.) That is what you need to draw for, 25" total diameter for the rollers.

Right, that's exactly what I was thinking.

[olpro]

This project (Mendeola chassis - Beetle/Suburu) is shown with Victor Equipment (Zehn-Hyper-Silver) wheels.
Front: 18x8 &225/40/18
Rear: 19x9.5 & 275/35/19
The fronts are a feasible size, the rears may be a push. Note that the rears slip to a 35 series, to maintain a consistent side view proportion because a 40 on that wide rim looks wrong.
Sizes are selected for good appearance, and may not be ideal for performance.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/allanflowers/spyderwheels2010.jpg

[Olimk2]

Full single donor, made with required dimensions...

1829

[Bill_H]

I added some color in Photoshop
1832

[thebeerbaron]

I added some color in Photoshop

I'm going to break my vow of silence on other people's designs to ask - why is the body (not roof) so high directly behind the driver? There's a mile between the top of the fender and the wheel arch, which in my mind adds lots of unwanted visual mass. See if you agree with my comments about a similar problem I saw in the last generation Celica here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/entry.php?130-Adding-Lightness).

[Bill_H]

I'm going to break my vow of silence on other people's designs to ask - why is the body (not roof) so high directly behind the driver? There's a mile between the top of the fender and the wheel arch, which in my mind adds lots of unwanted visual mass. See if you agree with my comments about a similar problem I saw in the last generation Celica here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/entry.php?130-Adding-Lightness).

Totally a fair question to ask... I was trying to avoid having the rollbar tower too high over the beltline. The illusion I want to create is similar to chopping a roof so the car's proportions will make it look like it is lower than it really is. If the rollbar was lowered, that is exactly where I would first cut out material.

I think adding a fender flare to the rear wheel and a bit more detail around the wheel arch would go a long way in breaking up this area, though this is honestly my first attempt at "airbrushing".

[bromikl]

1832

I like it. It reminds me a lot of 05xtsy's entry many months ago, which still has my vote. Several others also have a similar look.

I didn't notice the tall rear fenders until thebeerbaron pointed them out. I feel more room in the engine bay is always better. The only adjustments I'd like to see, are raising the rear diffuser (for clearance) and how it looks with a removable top.

Nicely done, Bill.

[crackedcornish]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1832&d=1305422320
http://www.factoryfive.com/whatsnew/update/nextcar/images/tbrewster.jpg

I like this style of side scoop, but yeah the rear ends are still to bulky

I keep bringing up the 550, but this is a car that looks light. I voted for doing something original in the poll, but now I'm beginning to think doing something like this may be the way to go
http://vintagespyders.com/gallery/images/DSC02611_JPG.jpg

[readymix]

I would love a Subaru powered 550 for 10k.

[armstrom]

There is a common trend of people moving the driver's seating position down and forward. I think FFR would be making a huge mistake by leaving the fuel tank under the seat. The driving position is just WAY too high. Coupled with the short wheelbase and its really making it hard to create a good looking design while still sticking to the template. There's a reason small sports cars are "low slung". Otherwise you look like a basketball player riding around on a kid's power wheels car. It just doesn't look right. Also, the hood length is quite long for a mid engine car. I would like to see better use of the space by putting the driver closer to the front of the car. No need for a big swooping 280Z style hood if there's no engine under it :)

[readymix]

Full single donor, made with required dimensions...

1829

Except for the headlamps.

[Hiryu]

Things have gotten slow again...Here are some that comply with the full template:

http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Vixen/X1SpecATransparentHardtop.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Vixen/X1SpecCTransparentHardtop.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Vixen/X1SpecSTransparentHardtop.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Vixen/X1SpecBTransparentHardtop.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Vixen/X1Spec0TransparentHardtop.jpg

[Hiryu]

These were all built around a similar tub and were used to feel out what might work with the templates.

Some more submissions (all include their respective hardtop):

http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Vixen/X1SpecDTransparentHardtop.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Vixen/X1SpecETransparentHardtop.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Vixen/X1SpecFTransparentHardtop.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Vixen/X1SpecXTransparentHardtop.jpg
http://www.murtaya.com/Mike/FFR/Vixen/X1SpecRTransparentHardtop.jpg

[Stavros]

For reference, I have overlaid the template requirements onto a similar dimensioned MR car, the current Cayman/Boxster chassis which is 95.1 inches in wheelbase. As you can see the packaging is very similar, even the driver position. I have also overlaid one of my designs onto this as well to verify the fitment within the requirements. The wheel size on the red car is slightly cheated at 20 inches, but you can see it is on rubber bands, so you could trade some wheel for tire. A 17 or 18 inch wheel would work within the same OD as this.

http://imageshack.us/m/20/9646/ffrdesigncontestprofile.jpg

Here is the rest of the car

http://imageshack.us/m/163/7921/diegokm.jpg

[readymix]

Wow, excellent find, dude. Pretty cool how it all lines up nearly perfectly on the Cayman.

[Gary in NJ]

Wow, Stavros for the win. I love the design.

[blueafro]

For reference, I have overlaid the template requirements onto a similar dimensioned MR car, the current Cayman/Boxster chassis which is 95.1 inches in wheelbase. As you can see the packaging is very similar, even the driver position.

I've spent happy hours in a friend's Cayman without ever having the feeling that I was sitting excessively high. That said, I didn't pull out a ruler and measure the space over my head either.

Food for thought, in any case.

[crackedcornish]

For reference, I have overlaid the template requirements onto a similar dimensioned MR car, the current Cayman/Boxster chassis which is 95.1 inches in wheelbase. As you can see the packaging is very similar, even the driver position. I have also overlaid one of my designs onto this as well to verify the fitment within the requirements. The wheel size on the red car is slightly cheated at 20 inches, but you can see it is on rubber bands, so you could trade some wheel for tire. A 17 or 18 inch wheel would work within the same OD as this.

http://imageshack.us/m/20/9646/ffrdesigncontestprofile.jpg

Here is the rest of the car

http://imageshack.us/m/163/7921/diegokm.jpg

hmmm, that's interesting, looking at that overlay makes me believe that FF will not be able to use the stock gas tank under the seats (as previously mentioned) and will have to locate it up front like the Porsche

...and Stavros, I'd like to see you car with the inset panel leading to the scoop curve deeper in towards the center of the car as it heads into the scoop, making the scoops appear larger without excessively widening the rear of the car. Although, I think your car could use a bit more width towards the rear (or tuck the area by the doors in a bit more, to give the appearance of more width on each end)..it looks kind of flat running down the side of the car as is.

something like this car does...I love that curved center section between the scoops on this one. kinda' gives it that race car tub kinda feel
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s147/crackedcornish/b51448e6.jpg

[Oppenheimer]

Wow, excellent find, dude. Pretty cool how it all lines up nearly perfectly on the Cayman.

Yes, very interesting. Perhaps this was their target from the start? The Automobile article mentioned the Stratos, and the 'modern' version of that is virtually 95 inch wb as well. So it made me think that could have been on FFR's radar when they came up with the chassis layout. But this makes one wonder if they looked at the Cayman for inspiration.

[thebeerbaron]

Here in some early blog comments (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/entry.php?73-The-Curse-of-the-Mid-engined-Roadster#comments), Dave expresses at least a little bit of admiration for the Cayman. Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have ourselves a JFK-type conspiracy theory. :)

[PhyrraM]

Actually, I would guess the material inspirations (Elise, Cayman, etc.) came after the basic idea (Subaru based, lightweight middy). Of course, to a Subaru guy like me, the basic idea is an old one and a very common sense one.

[D2W]

Does anyone with some actual seat time in the cayman know how much distance there is between the roof and your head? If the overlay is correct it doesn't look like there is room for even an average driver to wear a helmet.

[Stavros]

I am 6 foot even and have plenty of headroom in a Cayman with my helmet, but on never measured it though. I just measured and there is 2 inches of room to spare with my helmet on in my 986 Boxster S with either the hardtop or the softtop up.

[kach22i]

This thread is for posting entries that follow the FFR template.

FYI: Anyone who has tried to draw cars before by actually looking at them would know that there is a flaw in the side and profile templates.

Can you guess what it is?

Yep, the contact line of the tire does not take into account the deflation deformation or flattening due to the weight of the car.

The easy fix is to redraw the ground line, but the dimension to the bottom of the car will be thrown off, so you have to lift the bottom of the car to maintain the correct ground clearance.

Additionally, using a clay model as my basis and using two different cameras I think the perspective drawing is a little off. The position of the left tire is off to the left and makes the car look too wide. Again, nothing that cannot be fixed but does explain why many of the hand drawn perspective cars look funny and too wide in the front, like they are squashed.

The templates are not perfect, but they give you a good start. You need to be aware that the person that put them together may not have the experience you (or I) do.

Late in the game to point this out?

It's called a competition for a reason.:cool:

[Mike Downs]

So you are sitting at the same height as you would in a Cayman. But in the 818, you have a gas tank under your butt. What's wrong with this picture? Must be a real buck board seat. It seems like a bad compromise to me.

[kach22i]

I noticed a while back that the Boxster fit, which is around when I quit griping about the odd proportions. Makes sense that the coupe version (Cayman) would also work.

[Bill_H]

So you are sitting at the same height as you would in a Cayman. But in the 818, you have a gas tank under your butt. What's wrong with this picture? Must be a real buck board seat. It seems like a bad compromise to me.

I have a feeling the height is being driven by the need to use the stock Subaru front seats. There's no way the donor tank and seats can both be used without making the seat way too high, and it makes much more sense to reuse the seats rather than salvage the tank. But I guess we'll find out soon.

[unclebigbad]

Just thought I'd throw in my "drawn per the template" design.
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k637/unclebigbad1/FFREntry.jpg
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k637/unclebigbad1/IMG_0001-1.jpg
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k637/unclebigbad1/IMG_0002-1.jpg
http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k637/unclebigbad1/FFREntry_0002.jpg
I've already entered these and any feedback would be welcome.

[kach22i]

I've already entered these and any feedback would be welcome.

In general many of the designs attempt to keep the rear high for a semi-wedge look. This is consistent with modern vehicle dynamics, but fails to consider the low flat engine and goal to keep surface area (weight) to a minimum. I remarked on this in the thread showing the 3D frame with engine and tires on, sort of changes one's perspective.

Your car is nice, what hurts it is the sophistication of the artwork. I would not dismiss it based on that alone, but it may cause some to be suspicious of the package as a whole. It's like finding a coffee stain or misspelled word on the cover sheet of a term paper with a few globs of white-out. The content may be excellent, but can the teacher get past that? How about great tasting foods which are good for you but look like a gray lump? Same thing applies.

The inconsistency in the roof line of the profile drawing is the worst thing I see. Also, if you are going to turn the drawing into a cross-section (by drawing in the rest of the driver), you better get all the major things in, and that takes a lot of extra time.

[unclebigbad]

See, now how come I couldn't get that kind of feedback when I posted them back in early April? Maybe because everybody was falling all over themselves "voting" on the next flash in the pan.(sour grapes, sorry) I was taking into account that there is suspension and plumbing going on in the back of a very small car and the need for "wookie" proportions, I'm a big guy too. When I take the top off I wanna look like I'm sitting in it not on it.

I make stuff for people all the time, dressing up their ideas and making them work. I guess I'm already a winner in that aspect I get to see my work all the time.Wood metal and fiberglass are my usual mediums with only a rough drawing to work off of. Usually a quick sketch on a scrap piece of paper with a few measurements and a "can you make it look like this gestures in the air" The rest is in my hands and eyes,I do a pretty good job too, our car is ALWAYS the best looking on the track and I stay pretty busy. I rarely get to design my own stuff and I thought I could get some feedback good or bad before I commit to going to school to learn the art of design.

Thanks for your feedback though, It would have helped months ago. I guess what I really have here are a collection of inconsistent drawings and not very good ones, (theses were separate entries by the way, maybe I shouldn't have included the cross section as that was really just for me, I just wanted to show where the yellow one came from) I can take that. School is looking better and better, 'cause I really need to adopt this skill If I want MY business to grow. Once again thanks.

[kach22i]

See, now how come I couldn't get that kind of feedback when I posted them back in early April?

Competition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competition

Competition is a contest between individuals, groups, animals, etc. for territory, a niche, or a location of resources.

Just kidding.

I think I helped a lot of people early on, sorry that you fell between the cracks like that.

[unclebigbad]

I know, I know. It was a contest, like I said on some other post/thread this was fun for me. And pretty informative.

[Senger]

In general many of the designs attempt to keep the rear high for a semi-wedge look. This is consistent with modern vehicle dynamics, but fails to consider the low flat engine and goal to keep surface area (weight) to a minimum. I remarked on this in the thread showing the 3D frame with engine and tires on, sort of changes one's perspective.

Good point kach22i, and while a higher rear end may benefit aero, it isn't completely necessary. I approached this by hugging the bodywork closely to the frame and mechanicals. Rear downforce was aided by an active spoiler. While perhaps overly complex for this pricepoint, it was the cleanest aesthetic solution, and an alternative to adding a big, ungainly fixed wing. The driver position was also lowered 3", gas tank located center and just forward of the shifter, radiator moved aft, and the rollbar was moved downward in accordance with the modified driver position.

Overall, it has quite a few package modifications, but hopefully nothing too impractical depending on how strict the constraints will be when the chosen car is ultimately built.

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5067/5796483091_89191fbf8e_z.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2687/5796482785_ca1192ce70_z.jpg

[kach22i]

Overall, it has quite a few package modifications
Minor tweeks or changes as compared to some. The templates lead one to a 48" high car with a roof. The 38" high cars with driver moved forward would have only short guys like me (5'-5") fitting into it. The "car which you could drive in traffic without fearing for your life" (semi-quote) would be gone.

Five years ago I worked in clay to develop a mid-engine car design. It started out much like yours, but the extreme cabin forward windshield finally gave way to one set more back, like a conventional car (looked like an EGG car at first). It took a month and at least five major shifts in thinking, good thing the type of clay I chose did not dry up on me. In fact when modifying this design for the contest I pushed the windscreen even further back to fit the template.