What height is best for the build?

[pstockha]

My MkIV Complete Kit should be arriving in a couple weeks and I'm finalizing my shop. Trying to decide between using jack stands and building a rolling structure to support the frame during the build. What's stopping me for the moment is I don't know what height I'll want the frame at during the build. What is the collective wisdom on this? Is a 17" height reasonable? It seems to me if I'm going to be under the car a lot, I might want it higher than that, but this is my first rodeo, so I'm just not sure. Any advice would be appreciated. What height did you have the frame sit at for your build?

Thanks,
Paul

[DaleG]

I got these at Autozone, nice and beefy4510745108. All the way at rest is 16"; goes up to 24". I settled at ~20" as it was easy to work on all parts of the car. Easy to work under the car with a nice padded dolly.

[edwardb]

I did my first two on jack stands on the highest settings, which worked OK. I would recommend the highest you can get it safely on jack stands, if that's what you're going to use. I'm working now on a build with it on a 2-post lift at a low setting, probably around 36 inches high. Perfect for standing or sitting on a stool. I can raise it higher when necessary to work underneath.

[pstockha]

Thanks for the input guys. The lift would be great. But I have the sense I'm going to be bleeding money into this build already and I'm not sure I can justify it. That and I'm doing my build in an airplane hangar, so I'm leery of the permanent fixture. Might be jack stands for me for this first build anyway.

[6t8dart]

Use a dolly, jack stands are dangerous for long term use, especially at taller heights. I had my car a week and almost knocked it off the jack stands.

[Buzz Skyline]

I built an 818 using jack stands and it all seemed pretty convenient to me. But I always made sure to have backup protection in case it fell. Usually, cinder blocks or other wide and sturdy objects scattered around to give it something other to land on than me.

[oldguy668]

I work on the underside right from floor level.

45121

It's very stable. Plumbing, wiring, and riveting is a snap.

[DrPhantom]

Hey, guys, there already are too many partially completed kits for sale by widows/widowers! Do you really crawl under cars supported by four two-foot stands with only square-foot bases? ...cinder blocks for insurance?

I admit my ignorance, I'm a retired professor, but that sounds kami-kazi to me.

Imagine an 80-pound dog, your best friend, jumping into the passenger compartment. How about yanking on a jammed extension cord or air line and knocking a ladder or something over onto your masterpiece. How about a friend leaning against your project while offering verbal support?

Maybe I'm completely wrong, I'm feeling like an old lady. Could someone with a physics or engineering background comment on how much lateral force it takes to knock over a setup like this?

Granny Tom

[carlewms]

I guess the short answer DrPhantom is yes. From looking at all the build threads (and I have perused quite a few over the last three years), most of them were on jack stands (BTW I have not heard of a single builder's widow or widower selling a partially completed kit because it crushed the builder).

I built a special purpose dolly to lift the frame initially for the suspension, wiring and aluminum installation. I did install the differential (IRS) on this dolly. I lowered it to to the tires for engine installation and then put it back on the jack stands for installation of the transmission support.

My experience so far is that the stands are rock steady.

Carl

[russelljones48]

I've been working on my car since this Spring and can't imagine doing it without a chassis dolly. I have a pretty large garage but I find that being able to move the chassis around on the dolly is very helpful - like when I need to use a floor jack from the side and my wife has actually parked her car inside in "her" bay. All of the wood in mine was scrap so the only pieces I needed to purchase were the wheels. If I remember correctly I got 6 nice wheels from Harbor Freight for about $80 (I probably only need 4) . My frame tubes sit about 15" off the floor which puts the spindle centers about 21" off the floor. Not sure it's perfect but it has worked fine with both of my mechanics chairs. A couple of moving blankets makes getting under it palatable - and that hasn't been too often - I'm 67 and don't bend so well anymore. There are numerous designs and drawings around or PM me and I will send some pics.

[pstockha]

Thanks again everyone. I do have a design for a dolly to use - can't remember the gentleman's build site I got the idea from, but it was linked through the forums. Made from 6x6s w/ 8" casters, wider on the rear than the front to accommodate an engine hoist. I mocked up a plan from that site. My only concern is that even with caster brakes, the swivel casters will still allow some motion. I suppose one could fabricate caster blocks to roll the casters into to keep the position fixed. How do you guys who use dollies keep them firmly in position when applying pressure during a precision application (for example, when drilling)?

Thanks once more,
Paul

[russelljones48]

I haven't locked the casters when drilling. The frame alone weighs about 250lbs. and you'll be adding weight quickly so it hasn't been an issue for me - and I'm on smooth new concrete and 4 of my 6 casters (the 4 corners) will lock. I actually find the mobility quite helpful when situating things with a floor jack it's much easier to move the frame a few inches than it is to move the jack. And good luck with your car - it's fun!!

BTW you might want to read some of the posts on when to put panels in. I'm going to assemble most panels with clecos rather than install them permanently - this is advice from a couple of builders. The approach allows better access when running fuel, brake lines etc. and if repairs or changes need to be made later... after go-karting.

[edwardb]

Hey, guys, there already are too many partially completed kits for sale by widows/widowers! Do you really crawl under cars supported by four two-foot stands with only square-foot bases? ...cinder blocks for insurance?

I admit my ignorance, I'm a retired professor, but that sounds kami-kazi to me.

Imagine an 80-pound dog, your best friend, jumping into the passenger compartment. How about yanking on a jammed extension cord or air line and knocking a ladder or something over onto your masterpiece. How about a friend leaning against your project while offering verbal support?

Maybe I'm completely wrong, I'm feeling like an old lady. Could someone with a physics or engineering background comment on how much lateral force it takes to knock over a setup like this?

Granny Tom

I don't have a physics or engineering background (far from it). My background was all in business and in IT. But I've done several builds on only jackstands, and they are rock solid. I have two sets, and when building this way, will typically put one set on the chassis and another set under the suspension in the front and back for safety purposes. But this is entirely optional. I've never felt like it was possible for it to be pushed over. Especially for something as light as someone leaning against it. The only time I've felt anything even remotely move was when really torqueing on a large bolt with a long handle. But even then, it wasn't going anywhere. As you add parts, e.g. suspension, engine, etc. it gets more and more solid. With decent quality stands, properly positioned, properly locked, etc. nothing to worry about in my experience.

[DaleG]

Just make sure after supporting front or rear of car on jack stands, and then supporting the other end, that the first set has not "tilted"; that all 4 stands sit flat on the floor and that the "cradles" that the 4" tubes sit on are centered on the tubes. I then give the cat a good "shake" at all 4 corners to make sure there is no slack in the supporting system anywhere. I then have no fear of getting under the car to work.

[DrPhantom]

Thanks, all, I stand corrected. Come to think of it most of the builds are pictured on stands, I guess it never registered to me.

Tom

[skullandbones]

Just make sure after supporting front or rear of car on jack stands, and then supporting the other end, that the first set has not "tilted"; that all 4 stands sit flat on the floor and that the "cradles" that the 4" tubes sit on are centered on the tubes. I then give the cat a good "shake" at all 4 corners to make sure there is no slack in the supporting system anywhere. I then have no fear of getting under the car to work.

Personally, I went with the chassis dolly and I made it very substantial because I knew I was going to install most components including engine while it was on there. I also went high at about 32 inches which just about bit me in the end, so to speak. Getting it down from the dolly at the end just about caused a disaster. It was narrowly averted. The reason I put it so high was a chronic back issue.

I just wanted to repeat Craig's warning about the jack stands. They are great especially the beefy ones. However, all of them have a weakness. That is if you don't have them squarely flat on their feet, they can become a trap instead of a support. If you don't check all four corners each time (shaking is good but can also help trigger the "fall" if one of the jack stands is cocked a little. So stand clear as you check each corner. I have actually seen this happen and it almost injured one of my friends. The chassis will tend to swing sideways before it falls down which can add to the danger zone even if you are not directly under the car. Not trying to steel Craig's thunder just reiterating how much of a safety issue this can be if you don't know how jack stands work.

Good luck,

WEK.

[marlin]

45135
I found this useful. Credit to prior forum member.
Hope it helps, Marlin

[Porky]

I used a 4x4 in the front. I cut it so that it fits tightly between the channels at the front of the four inch tubes. Jacked it up and put cinder blocks under the 4x4. For the rear I jacked it up under the diff and then put cinder blocks with pressure treated 2x6s on top on the outboard sides in line with the seat backs. It's not fancy but it's cheap and the thing is safe and secure. Strong like bull. I don't trust jack stands for long term work. I'm only a foot off the ground but 17 or 24 inches would be perfectly fine also. Another block or two. If you have the room and don't need to move the chassis then I recommend this setup.

[6t8dart]

I built mine 17" tall, it's limited by its casters, which have a max of 1960 lbs. once I get all the brakes and fuel system done, it will probably go onto the tires, but until then it's staying on the dolly.

45205

45206

[edwardb]

I used a 4x4 in the front. I cut it so that it fits tightly between the channels at the front of the four inch tubes. Jacked it up and put cinder blocks under the 4x4. For the rear I jacked it up under the diff and then put cinder blocks with pressure treated 2x6s on top on the outboard sides in line with the seat backs. It's not fancy but it's cheap and the thing is safe and secure. Strong like bull. I don't trust jack stands for long term work. I'm only a foot off the ground but 17 or 24 inches would be perfectly fine also. Another block or two. If you have the room and don't need to move the chassis then I recommend this setup.

You don't trust jack stands but you're using cinder blocks? You're just messing with us, right? :confused:

If you're not, I couldn't disagree more strongly and you're violating recognized safety standards. Cinder blocks should never be used for working on a car, most especially one that you would be under.

[Porky]

Clarification, the blocks I am using are the solid variety. Not sure if you call them cinder blocks but the material is similar. They are about 4 inches thick each and are way stronger and more stable than a jack stand. I have no qualms about getting under this car with them holding it up. Sorry for the confusion.

[dspellman]

You should be at least 48" tall to start this ride.

[Jazzman]

Does the height or . . . girth of the builder factor into the optimum height of the dolly? At 5'9" tall, I don't want it to be too tall or I wont be able to work inside the engine bay or trunk. As one who is also "broader of beam" than I should be, I don't want it too low so that I can't work under the frame comfortably. It seems the consensus is about 16-20" tall. I will probably lean towards the shorter end. Thoughts?

[jceckard]

I'll throw in a quick comment about casters. There are some out there that lock both the swivel and the tire. You'll see a toothed ring around the swivel that gets engaged when you press on the brake. There will also be a pad the comes down on the tire to keep it from turning. These things are awesome. I've used them on my workbench and other equipment. I'm not sure of the weight limit off the top of my head.

[Avalanche325]

Clarification, the blocks I am using are the solid variety. Not sure if you call them cinder blocks but the material is similar. They are about 4 inches thick each and are way stronger and more stable than a jack stand. I have no qualms about getting under this car with them holding it up. Sorry for the confusion.

They are typically referred to as "mechanics tombstones".

Cinder or concrete blocks are brittle. They are not designed for point loading, which is exactly what putting a car on them does. They can shatter without warning. Just because you have gotten away with it up to now, doesn't mean it is safe. Jack stands are specifically designed and rated to hold a car up.

[stevenburgess]

I also strapped my tubes to the jack stands for a little extra security

[VdubJoe]

Ive used jackstands for over 30 years building and working on stuff. Never had an issue but always checked them closely. Concrete I would never trust.
Bad mix and it could just shatter and no way to tell.
Using a dolly for this build and then got a 2 post lift. Best thing I ever did. Don't do much getting on the ground any more.
And my body thanks me for it.

[6t8dart]

Now that I have been working on my roadster for a month now, I believe I got lucky and the 17" height for my dolly is perfect, I use my roller seat most of the time and I have no complaints.

[pstockha]

I decided to go with a dolly. Total height off the ground 18.25" at the bottom of the 4" diameter tubes. We'll see how it works out.