My designs I will be working overfor submission

[Colvindesign]

New design,
with roof,
http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/6313/ffrp.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/807/ffrp.jpg/)

and without
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5556/ffr1.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/ffr1.jpg/)


Old design I am still working through, Nezerra
http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/6215/nezerra.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/36/nezerra.jpg/)

will post more later

[GUNS]

Cool design, but there is a thread for this already...

[Colvindesign]

Thanks, I guess. As this is an open design competition, I think each person submitting designs should be able to start their own thread.

[readymix]

Thanks, I guess. As this is an open design competition, I think each person submitting designs should be able to start their own thread.

Didn't you already start your own thread once?

[Colvindesign]

Didn't you already start your own thread once?

Am I limited to one?

[readymix]

No. You can have as many as you want. But it's hard to keep track of multiple threads and designs.

[Colvindesign]

I think it's just as hard to keep track of one 30 plus page thread when there are two or three primary designs that have been re-posted 2-3-4 times per page for 10 pages. When someone else posts up something else it is completely missed because the discussion is about those designs that have taken over that thread.

I have started now three threads. One thread was asking a question, about the reason behind the long tail section on the side view template. Another thread was of off-topic sketches, just stuff for fun I wanted to share with fellow enthusiasts. This third thread was intended to display my designs that I am working on to evolve and submit, I thought I could ask for feedback from the community of people who would be looking to own the car. However instead it seems now a thread based upon why I am apparently spamming up this forum.

Perhaps I should keep my questions and sketches to myself? I thought this was an open forum where people could discuss FFR and the 818.......

[JRL]

I think it's just as hard to keep track of one 30 plus page thread when there are two or three primary designs that have been re-posted 2-3-4 times per page for 10 pages. When someone else posts up something else it is completely missed because the discussion is about those designs that have taken over that thread.

I have started now three threads. One thread was asking a question, about the reason behind the long tail section on the side view template. Another thread was of off-topic sketches, just stuff for fun I wanted to share with fellow enthusiasts. This third thread was intended to display my designs that I am working on to evolve and submit, I thought I could ask for feedback from the community of people who would be looking to own the car. However instead it seems now a thread based upon why I am apparently spamming up this forum.

Perhaps I should keep my questions and sketches to myself? I thought this was an open forum where people could discuss FFR and the 818.......

Couldn't agree more post away. Nice design too.

[thebeerbaron]

Keep posting. It's nice to see designs other than the "chosen" ones.

And remember that a panel of judges will be choosing the winner, not this crowd.

[riptide motorsport]

Like it alot, cant figure out where your going to get lights like your desigm, but I like it.

[ganis]

Colvindesign, i like your new design, clean and nice flow...if you do better for air intake (at front of rear tire), that would be nice....
like it !

-ganis-

[Horhay]

I like the new design but I have a critique for you. The cockpit seems fairly claustrophobic. I imagine visibility would be hampered by the cut of the door.

[bromikl]

This new design is much closer to what I am hoping for. I really like the roof scoop behind the cockpit. Keep the headlight design. It's very unique and hardly difficult to make with projector lamps and some LED's. The side intake will need some work. I can imagine somebody's kid standing on it to peek into the cockpit. The front intakes look great, but you will need a hood vent. (Unlike production cars, the area under the car will be flat sheets of aluminum.)

[JRL]

The headlights, while looking pretty cool, will be difficult to keep clean unless the hood opens to allow access.

[Colvindesign]

Wow, thanks a lot for all the positive feedback. I really appreciate it!

The headlights would be behind an opening in the fender. A simple plastic or metal bezel could be used in the opening, as was mentioned a projector lamp and LEDs could be used behind the opening. And it would be accessible from under the hood. I think even mounting them to a mesh screen or grille will prevent it from collecting bugs and dirt in the opening. To prevent cracking around the opening, an aluminum frame could be worked into the fiberglass (not steel because if a micro-crack forms it would rust.... and then).

The design of the greenhouse is modeled after the much loved (around here) Stratos and even the Ferrari Enzo. While I certainly imagine it being large enough for the "average" American like myself (6 ft 3 and 215 lbs)...... I don't think it should be a cavernous expanse with windows past full arms length. It's all about business, and this car's business is going FAST. I'm thinking more like an ENZO than like a Murcielago.

Brom, for the third pic (Nezerra) I am actually thinking about making the side intake into a step to make it easier to get into the car, as there will be no doors.

[Colvindesign]

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5976/ffr2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/ffr2.jpg/)

[bromikl]

...making the side intake into a step to make it easier to get into the car, as there will be no doors.

I hadn't thought of that. Though I'm fairly sure there will be doors. All the other models from FFR have doors. They all have a (relatively) high door sill to accommodate the frame, but none of them require a ladder. Remember, the car will sit very low compared to most street vehicles. If those are 19 inch rims on your design, the roof is about three feet high.

[Colvindesign]

Well, if the design works without doors...... perhaps that is how they will build it. I would not make it so you would need to be an athlete to get in. Also, a higher side support on the frame would make the car more stiff. You do need to throw a leg over a motorcycle which a lot of people don't have a problem with. With a removable steering wheel, and a durable side sill, getting in could consist of; stepping on the scoop, putting the other leg over, sitting on the sill and putting in the other leg and scooting the rest of the way in.

I personally wouldn't mind an exotic looking car sitting in my garage that I had to step up and into. When the roof and side windows are off it would be straightforward. However with the top on, an opening mechanism would need to be designed which would allow easy ingress and egress, and which would allow the driver/ passenger to close and open it from inside.

[PhyrraM]

http://img546.imageshack.us/img546/5976/ffr2.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/546/ffr2.jpg/)

The rear air intakes ruin it for me. If the roofline continued it's current flow into the rear deck it would look almost perfect.

Yes, the intercooler and the motor need air, but it can be exhausted out the top just as easily as it is gathered.

[Horhay]

The design of the greenhouse is modeled after the much loved (around here) Stratos and even the Ferrari Enzo. While I certainly imagine it being large enough for the "average" American like myself (6 ft 3 and 215 lbs)...... I don't think it should be a cavernous expanse with windows past full arms length. It's all about business, and this car's business is going FAST. I'm thinking more like an ENZO than like a Murcielago.

It's your design so don't let me sway you too much, I'm probably in the minority anyway, but I'd like to see the car designed to be fun to drive rather than fast. To me, fun to drive means easy to use in the real world, a place cars like the Enzo, Stratos and Murcielago aren't very worried about.

Anyway, I'm one of those non-average Americans (6'5", 250lbs) that hope the car's design doesn't mean I can't own one (I'm looking at you Elise!).

I do like your headlight solution though. Clever packaging always gets a thumbs up from me.

[blueafro]

While I get the stylistic reason for the Enzo/Stratos door line, as drawn here the visibility looks like it would be pretty much nil, and therefore undrivable. I do like the lines otherwise, I just think you need to picture yourself sitting in the cockpit and keep working on the window line until you can answer the question of how you'd change lanes or merge onto a highway or turn into moving traffic.

[Colvindesign]

There is always the long pedal all the way to the right.....

I do get what you mean, the side visibility would be limited. I've been working on different lines for it does look the best as drawn so far. However while limited, I don't think it would be any more so than a 2010+ Camaro.

[olpro]

The problem is merging to the right. Vision would be terrible. Why don't you just address the functional issue and open up the DLO a little?

[Colvindesign]

I'm working on it "pro"

[Colvindesign]

http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/9574/ffr3.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/ffr3.jpg/)

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/8249/interiormm.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/710/interiormm.jpg/)

[Colvindesign]

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6959/ffr4.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/231/ffr4.jpg/)

[PhyrraM]

YUMMMY.


Just shy of a pure exotic, Maybe a touch of retro, thinking Dino-ish. Short overhangs are good.

Funny how just a few changes can effect the whole flavor of the car.

I also like the simple effective interior.

[Colvindesign]

Thanks, the third pic is not matching the first. i need to fix the window line on that one.

[Oppenheimer]

YUMMMY.


Just shy of a pure exotic, Maybe a touch of retro, thinking Dino-ish. Short overhangs are good.

Funny how just a few changes can effect the whole flavor of the car.


Yes, a modern Dino. A lot to like with something that manages to look modern and retro at the same time, and most importantly still look really cool.

[mn_vette]

I really like the idea of the "pickup truck" type flooring on the interior shot. Even if we don't get a trunk, we could still put a small weekend bag under the dash between the driver and passanger seats. Maybe a small divider to keep things from falling over onto the accelerator though.

[Niburu]

I like the realistic wheel sizing in post #25

[Senger]

It is refreshing to see someone fleshing out details to this level. While I'm not a fan of the light execution, it appears practical for the purpose. The interior seems simple enough at this point, but going forward it would be wise to keep it to bare essentials to meet cost and weight goals.

[Gearsmith]

Beautiful design. And yes, the Dino-ish thing going on with this one is awesome. I would, however, like to see a headlight arrangement that is more practical. Very nice work. I would get this one.

[Olimk2]

Your design would gain a lot with "lighter" side sills, very athletic body but fat bottom...LOL! Keep in mind the required ground clearance, it will be benefit for the styling...

[readymix]

Your design would gain a lot with "lighter" side sills, very athletic body but fat bottom...LOL! Keep in mind the required ground clearance, it will be benefit for the styling...

I really like the last design here, but Olimk2 is right about ground clearance. You'll have a hard time getting up driveways as it sits. But minor modifications could be made, especially since you have those short overhangs ( I <3 short overhangs)

1717

The angle in the front would be sufficient I think for clearing most ramp and speedbump type obstacles, and in the rear, if you went with the lowest orange line, you could get away with coming down off of parkingramp/driveways. The upper orange line in the rear would give max clearance and have the "benefit" of showing off the back of the transmission/exhaust piping and other mechanical business. Which would lend an exotic flair to the rear.

[olpro]

It is fine to start with sketches for ideas but the main design work has to be done more systematically. That is why there is a package drawing. Use it.
You can make anything look good in a cheated sketch but if it doesn't work over the package, you have failed. Unfortunately I see very little or no effort in some of these proposals to address reality.

[thebeerbaron]

Unfortunately I see very little or no effort in some of these proposals to address reality.

We've got to work on your tact, and I'm not speaking of anyone's designs in particular, but I agree with you on this one. I struggled with the packaging myself and "cheated" in a few areas in my model. It's a juggling act to decide just how closely we should hew to what are very rough packaging guidelines. I decided that a mm or two cut out of my foam buck weren't going to be a big deal. That's quite a bit different than having a short rear overhang on a car with a long transmission sticking out the back, but who am I to judge.

I guess it comes down to - do you think this is a design contest, or an inspiration contest? Will the judges take a design that violates the packaging guidelines and say "we think Jim can make this work"?

I like the enthusiasm and widespread participation by folks with varying levels of experience, talent, and education. I know that sounds all feel-goody "Everybody Gets A Trophy Day", but it shows that people are interested in this car and that ideas from outside the professional design world have a chance.

[olpro]

beerbaron wrote: "I guess it comes down to - do you think this is a design contest, or an inspiration contest? Will the judges take a design that violates the packaging guidelines and say "we think Jim can make this work"?"

This is a very good question. I really don't know the answer but don't think you can assume the judges won't be snowed by a cool sketch. I assume (and hope) they will not but have seen it happen in other competitions.

Judging should probably be done from the straight orthographic views, when comparing entries to each other. A transparent overlay with realistic wheels could be used to test the validity of the side views. A preliminary cut should be made to eliminate the totally unbuildable proposals and the final selection made from the survivors.

In looking at the artwork being shown, it doesn't have much to do with education level. I see many sketches that are rather crudely drawn but where the designer is seriously working with the package issues. I also see some slick renderings that are wildly cheated and would never work in reality. One problem is that design students quickly learn how to make their work look "real" and are very good at hiding the cheat.

[PhyrraM]

Dave has clearly stated numerous times that the chassis is still in the design phase and moving things around to accomodate a winning design is a very real possibility. With that stated, what exactly is being cheated?

Mr. Smith has also stated he wanted it to be mainly a design contest and he specifically tried to word his statements to convey that. He only released templates because we, here on these forums, pushed him into a corner to do so. What's to cheat in a pure design contest?

OldPro, you were the first to state that this contest is just a poorly disguised way for FFR to gain a base of design ideas. If that is the main goal, what is being cheated?


I understand your desire for something more professional, because that's what you are - A professional. However, that's not what the organizer of the contest seems to want.

[thebeerbaron]

I've got to keep this short and sweet (sneaking away from work), and I don't want to hijack this thread but...

The two things I see get "cheated" often are the length of the rear overhang and the need to feed an intercooler. The intercooler is less of an issue to me, but it's worth a thought. The rear overhang is a serious issue - the transmission can't be shortened or moved around to suit a design. Something that has a super-short rear overhang could be beautiful, but once stretched to accommodate the very real transmission, look terrible. That's all.

I imposed some more stringent "hard" points on my model - essentially a EJ engine block and transmission. I chose to do that and it bit me in the keister in a couple of small places. That's for me to deal with.

I agree with you in many respects Phyrram, and am not suggesting that this should be as analytical a process as I think our friend olpro desires sometimes. But IMHO, the rear overhang is one issue that just can't be ignored.

[olpro]

Beerbaron, you are correct about the rear overhang. It is not going away. The other things that are also important are wheel/tire sizes relative to the body, ground clearance (including the ramps), overall height and wheel base. I took one of the submitted sketches and calculated that the guy was actually showing 30” rims. OF COURSE his drawing looked exciting.
It proved nothing -in fact it was deceptive and a lot of people gushed about how cool his design was. The appeal of that sketch was totally dependent upon the cheat. With realistic proportions, no one would have looked twice.
On the “templates”, they were there from the beginning, not a result of posters’ nagging.
Of course a little package flexibility is fine (that seating position is not good) but to go to 30” rims and 1” ground clearance is cheating and sadly some people are fooled by it.

I feel bad about hijacking this thread so let me bring it back to Colvindesign and his sketches. I would like one good side view over the package, so we could see where he is “pushing” it. If he is close to the package or can make a reasonable case to his mods, then his design holds up.

[JRL]

This is a fascinating project with several clever designs from several very talented folks. That being said I think some of them are ignoring the cost factor as they sketch.

[Oppenheimer]

Resurrecting the hijack. I seem to have gotten the impression from some things Dave posted that FFR is not obligating themselves to build the 818 to the design contest winner. That they are reserving an 'out' if they decide the contest winner isn't what they want to build.

Further, I got the impression that if they do build the 818 based on the contest winner, they are by no means holding themselves to a strict interpretation of it. That they might make changes, even significant changes, as they see fit (to make it manufacturable or for any other reason).

If this is truely the case, then all the design contest submissions are merely inspiration, so strict adherence to the template, or worrying if your design might be overlooked because it would be too costly to build, are for naught. That would imply you should design what looks good to you, and what you think will look good to others, and let FFR worry about details like production, cost, etc.

One might interpret that if this stuff doesn't matter, that means its the wild west and any crazy design that has nothing to do with a Mid engine, RWD, 95 inch wheelbase should be OK, well thats not what FFR seems to be saying. It seems to me like they are looking for a concept car. We know that concept cars that make it to production often differ significantly from the original. But its the overall look of the concept car that generates the buzz and excitement that propels the design to crossover to production.

If what they are after is a concept car, that answers a lot of the questions people have been wondering about (like the ones beerbaron raised earlier in this thread hijack).

[Olimk2]

Nevertheless it would be disapointing if the winning design doesn't make it into production. I just don't make this for fun...best reward is seeing the concept on the road.

[Gearsmith]

The other thing I see cheated is the driver's seated height. I downloaded the templates and did some crude sketches just to see what could be done with the "package." What I found was the body has to be rather tall if you want a roof, which some of the designs being submitted are not -- at least don't appear to be proportionally. Instead of sitting on the gas tank the driver's butt would be in the gas tank.

[Spezz]

Resurrecting the hijack. I seem to have gotten the impression from some things Dave posted that FFR is not obligating themselves to build the 818 to the design contest winner. That they are reserving an 'out' if they decide the contest winner isn't what they want to build.

Further, I got the impression that if they do build the 818 based on the contest winner, they are by no means holding themselves to a strict interpretation of it. That they might make changes, even significant changes, as they see fit (to make it manufacturable or for any other reason).

If this is truely the case, then all the design contest submissions are merely inspiration, so strict adherence to the template, or worrying if your design might be overlooked because it would be too costly to build, are for naught. That would imply you should design what looks good to you, and what you think will look good to others, and let FFR worry about details like production, cost, etc.

One might interpret that if this stuff doesn't matter, that means its the wild west and any crazy design that has nothing to do with a Mid engine, RWD, 95 inch wheelbase should be OK, well thats not what FFR seems to be saying. It seems to me like they are looking for a concept car. We know that concept cars that make it to production often differ significantly from the original. But its the overall look of the concept car that generates the buzz and excitement that propels the design to crossover to production.

If what they are after is a concept car, that answers a lot of the questions people have been wondering about (like the ones beerbaron raised earlier in this thread hijack).
What would be most disappointing and unfair if somebody with a sketch of a car with Pagani Zonda proportions wins because it looks cool instead of a design that tried hard to work with what's given to a certain extent where real thought has been given about how to make the car exciting but still fit the package more or less.

An couple of inches here and there off the package is ok imho for the sketch but when you cut the roof line by 5 inches and do the same to the rear and use 24 inch rims, then yeah. Let's just all draw Zonda's and Ferrari's

[Niburu]

no matter who wins people are going to whine about it, and nitpick the decision to death
I just hope I like the design(s)
because I really wanna build this
I've already got approval from the wife

[PhyrraM]

no matter who wins people are going to whine about it, and nitpick the decision to death.....

ding ding ding

[bromikl]

I've been giving this very real issue some thought. The problem is: if the rear is too long, it will scrape on the ground. What if the end of the transmission were higher off the ground than the axle? I understand the entire engine and drivetrain would need to rotate forward, and they would be at an angle compared to the stock engine.

I have no direct experience with the Subaru engine/transmission. I don't know what would happen to the oil levels and pumps if this were done. But I do know that cars can safely go down steep inclines without killing the engine. What would be the long-term effect?

Maintenance may be more difficult, as the engine will be tucked deeper into the engine bay. Maybe they could make the engine compartment accessible from the cockpit through an opening in the firewall?

On the plus side, the engine will be much lower, lowering the car's center of gravity. That's a good thing, right?

[readymix]

You can't lean the engine forward. Oiling is based on level mounting, so that just wouldn't fly. And you can't get much lower center of gravity than is already given by the flat engine. It sits low as it is. I don't forsee scraping issues though. The transmission sticks out a lot, but you'd have to be going offroad with it to really worry about thumping it.

[Bill_H]

What would be most disappointing and unfair if somebody with a sketch of a car with Pagani Zonda proportions wins because it looks cool instead of a design that tried hard to work with what's given to a certain extent where real thought has been given about how to make the car exciting but still fit the package more or less.

An couple of inches here and there off the package is ok imho for the sketch but when you cut the roof line by 5 inches and do the same to the rear and use 24 inch rims, then yeah. Let's just all draw Zonda's and Ferrari's

I was considering starting a "Per-the-print" thread where postings would be limited to drawings that strictly follow the template, but I have a feeling there would only be two posts. Anybody think that would be a good idea?

[readymix]

Go for it. Make it a requirement that all submitted pics are overlaid on the template.

[D2W]

I'm torn on the whole "following the template exactly" concept. Things like wheelbase and track should be followed precisely. Other things like driver placement should be up to interpretation. Sitting on top of the gas tank will either make the whole car higher than it needs to be, or it will make you feel like your sitting on top of the car rather than in it. Putting outrageously tall wheels on your design may make it look good but of course not translate to a good looking car in reality.

[Hiryu]

I was considering starting a "Per-the-print" thread where postings would be limited to drawings that strictly follow the template, but I have a feeling there would only be two posts. Anybody think that would be a good idea?

I like this idea. If nothing else, it would be cool to see differences between the two types of designs (ones that do and ones that don't adhere to the templates)...Though would they be able to post if they adhere to either template, or just the more strict ones (i.e., the one with not only the wheel placement but also the driver, radiator, and powertrain positions)?

Either way, I'd say it would be an interesting thread--especially for people who have spent extra time and care on their designs to make them comply with the templates.

[Oppenheimer]

Since this thread is so hopelessly hijacked now... I have been wondering if the driver position in the template is not so much because FFR is serious about keeping the stock tank and have the driver sit on top of it, but rather an attempt to make sure the designs really adhere to their 'Wookie' proportion requirement.

[Colvindesign]

Thanks for all the comments, positive and negative. Things have waken up quite a bit while I have been under the weather.

Oldpro, I understand your comments.......... However as a "pro" you of all people should know that even in the industry, a design is often chosen for advanced work when it is proposed as a wild 30 inch wheel, 3 inch tall greenhouse, 1 inch overhang cartoon.

The designs I have posted here have been done in Sketchbook pro. In sketchbook pro the best tool you have to use is layers. I used cars with a similar wheelbase as a bottom layer in order to place the wheels at the right place (and in a realistic size). On some others that I submitted for the contest, I used the templates.

For the rear overhang, the question of whether the template includes the rear drive box, has not been answered by FFR. If so, then you CAN cut off a significant segment from the rear of the transmission. However, my designs do cover the rear overhang.

As for the seating position, again as a designer and given the information from Dave Smith that the chassis is still not set, you should know that the gas tank can (and in my opinion should) move.

Dave Smith encouraged us to use creativity.

You are using the mindset that ruined the industry a long time ago, not letting designers design the cars. Now would you rather we end up with an eyesore that fits perfectly around the template (which we were told can change) or we end up with something that moves some things around slightly and ends up gorgeous. When engineers design cars, you get the Mosler Raptor (1997).

As for the headlights (and tail lights for that matter) I do have several designs in mind that can give a different look. With the intercooler (and radiator) placement, and airflow, that is something that can be altered without destroying the design.

[Colvindesign]

Niburu: That is a key point that a lot of people are ignoring, I understand FFR set the parameters..... but if what they gave us to work with ends up giving us a weird looking car...... who would buy it?

Sitting on top of the gas tank moves a large hunk of weight (the driver) up higher than it needs to be. In the case of a 200 lb driver and a 200 lb passenger, you just negated the whole idea of using a boxer 4 to lower the COG. Now if the gas tank AND the driver/ passenger are all as low as the engine, this would aid in handling as well.

[D2W]

Sitting on top of the gas tank moves a large hunk of weight (the driver) up higher than it needs to be. In the case of a 200 lb driver and a 200 lb passenger, you just negated the whole idea of using a boxer 4 to lower the COG. Now if the gas tank AND the driver/ passenger are all as low as the engine, this would aid in handling as well.

That is an excellent point. And I do like your latest design.

[Fast818]

Any new pics or pics of your finished submission ?

[kach22i]

I guess I never read this thread until today, thanks to fast818 for giving it a bump up.

Nice design, wish it fit the template better.

I have taken in a lot of what I've seen near and after the deadline. Ran some prints of my 8th entry and marked it up with revisions. The changes reflect reviving some dead ends I chased but tossed away to early. I say too early because I see some of the 550/RSK60 rear ends and Audi AVUS concept car influences which I liked but did not want to exactly copy.

I think I'm going to do at least one more scheme for myself, one I have all the rights to.:cool:

[Colvindesign]

Not much different than what you've seen. Getting kidney stones in the middle of the contest took all the wind out of me. Especially when I found out I had a lot in my right kidney and have been passing 2-3 a week. I feel my design if I had the time to render it more realistically would have held it's own a bit better. But what I submitted was what I was able to come up with under the circumstances.

It would be very cool to see my design on the road.