Vinyl wrap instead of paint?

[818_Fan_15]

I'm a huge fan of the 818 project, found out about it on the Local Motors forum. Nice to see other companies do competitions for design. At $15k the 818 will be much more affordable than a Rally Fighter, and more practical on the street.

The announcement said the car won't need to be painted. Will it be a gelcoat like the Local Motors rally fighter? Does that mean there will be custom wraps available for it? Will there be a competition for the wrap design?



Local Motors Rally fighter:

All Rally Fighter's are vinyl wrapped, although it can remain bare. Local Motors has chosen vinyl wrap over paint for four reasons:

Vinyl is lighter weight than paint - it saves 12 pounds on the Rally Fighter
Vinyl application and disposal is less harmful to the environment than paint
Vinyl is less expensive to apply and maintain than paint
Vinyl is incredibly customizable, like paint

Our customers choose the pattern and graphics for their Rally Fighter and can engage the Local Motor's community for help with a custom 'skin' competition. Watch Ari and Dave discuss the Local Motors decision to use vinyl skins over paint.


http://www.local-motors.com/rallyFighter.php?p=techSpecs

Since lightweight is part of the design criteria, this would me the cars can be customized, and vinyl is easily replaced between races.

[readymix]

Gelcoat =/= vinyl. I believe all of Factory Five's vehicles have gelcoated bodies. It just gives the fiberglass a smooth shiny finish. It's an epoxy step that is added to the manufacturing process of the panels. If you have ever bought an aftermarket fiberglass body part for a car, they usually come gelcoated. Usually, you simply scuff the gelcoat with sandpaper, apply your primer and paint over it. Or you can leave it.
What Local Motors did is essentially a body wrap with adhesive backed vinyl film. Same thing that you see those full image wrapped cars driving around with, only in the case of the Rally Fighter, it's just a single color. Neat idea. But it's better suited for a rally car where body damage is just a fact of life, and where body finish quality doesn't really matter all that much. The 818 is street/track use oriented. You wont see alot of body panel damage driving it around town or at the auto-x/road track (unless you are a terrible driver), and the look and finish that a painted panel provides cannot be matched by adhesive backed vinyl.

[readymix]

Since lightweight is part of the design criteria, this would me the cars can be customized, and vinyl is easily replaced between races.

And let me correct you here. It is not EASILY replaced. I run a vinyl graphics shop as a side business. Peeling and re-laying an entire car body worth of vinyl can take about as long as it would to scuff the body panels and recoat with a half-assed paint job. Both would look equally as shoddy as far as finish goes. And the cost for a full car wrap, including removal of the previous wrap...well, let's just say, your pocket book will NOT thank you.

[f31monkey]

Don't those full vinyl wraps usually run at least a grand? Would be cheaper than a good paint job I suppose... And I've seen them being installed, what a pain it looks to be. I think I will just wait and see if I am satisfied with the "gel coat" body panels and go from there. On a side note though, you could come up with some pretty cool graphics and/ or designs with the vinyl wraps that would really set your car apart from the others!
*EDIT... how true is this?! "Vinyl is lighter weight than paint - it saves 12 pounds on the Rally Fighter" On that note I will not add anything to the exterior of this car, lol.

[readymix]

They probably weighed the cans of paint, primer and clear.

And if we do some estimates (based on an 04 Impreza)
Materials cost: 60 linear feet of material at $10/linear foot (24" wide rolls) = 600.00 in material
Labor rate: $10/linear foot (this includes transfer materials and other such installation related stuff) = 600.00
Install cost: 16 hours (2 people, 8 hour day) @ 10/hr = 160.00
If we did removal, I estimate about 32 man hours (2 people, working 2 8 hour days) x 10/hr = 320.00.

So, about $1680 to peel and recover your car
Or, for the first time, $1360.00 to do the initial covering.

And that is for a single color wrap. That isn't printed or with designs and graphics. That is just the cost for me to make your car a single color all over. If you want interesting designs and what not, multilayered vinyl graphics cost $$$$$$. Printed can be done, but I don't perform that in house. So I can't speak to the cost. But I do know that the large format vinyl printer isn't cheap. It can cost some 10x as much as a standard vinyl plotter machine. And honestly, at 1680 for a peel and re-wrap, I'd be looking into a paintjob. You can buy enough paint to just do a spray over on your car for 100 bucks if you don't really care all that much about how it looks. An HVLP sprayed paint job with no clear coat and minimal prep time would probably look just as good as a vinyl wrap and it would cost a ton less.

[Oppenheimer]

I asked this same question a while back in another thread, basically: will the 818 'no paint' gel-coat body be offered in different colors? Would vinyl graphics (for colors too unique to be offered in gel-coat, or for cool graphics options) be a good idea?

No real discussion came out of that, so I'm hoping this thread generates more feedback. I'm hoping FFR offers several gel-coat color options, while the vinyl graphics thing sounds like an ideal fit for a vendor to step in and offer. Maybe even some cool online template thing where you could design your own graphics. But I suppose how good vinyl would look would depend a lot on what sort of car the 818 ends up being. If its Ferrari like, vinyl would probably look extremely cheesy, if its more exo-skeleton like, vinyl would probably fit. If its something in between...

[Oppenheimer]

They probably weighed the cans of paint, primer and clear.

And if we do some estimates (based on an 04 Impreza)
Materials cost: 60 linear feet of material at $10/linear foot (24" wide rolls) = 600.00 in material
Labor rate: $10/linear foot (this includes transfer materials and other such installation related stuff) = 600.00
Install cost: 16 hours (2 people, 8 hour day) @ 10/hr = 160.00
If we did removal, I estimate about 32 man hours (2 people, working 2 8 hour days) x 10/hr = 320.00.

So, about $1680 to peel and recover your car
Or, for the first time, $1360.00 to do the initial covering.

And that is for a single color wrap. That isn't printed or with designs and graphics. That is just the cost for me to make your car a single color all over. If you want interesting designs and what not, multilayered vinyl graphics cost $$$$$$. Printed can be done, but I don't perform that in house. So I can't speak to the cost. But I do know that the large format vinyl printer isn't cheap. It can cost some 10x as much as a standard vinyl plotter machine. And honestly, at 1680 for a peel and re-wrap, I'd be looking into a paintjob. You can buy enough paint to just do a spray over on your car for 100 bucks if you don't really care all that much about how it looks. An HVLP sprayed paint job with no clear coat and minimal prep time would probably look just as good as a vinyl wrap and it would cost a ton less.

Glad someone with real knowledge is able to give inout on this. I'm wondering the effect of production volume on these numbers. If some vendor were to produce a bunch of these graphics, in a limited set of colors/graphics (but more extensive than whatever FFR offers in gel-coat), what happens to the cost then? Obviously does nothing to install costs, what about materials.

[readymix]

Well, I was speaking solely from the "aftermarket" perspective there. If factory five wanted to vinyl wrap their own parts at the factory, they would save a bundle. The problem is, how much material do you want to buy and have on hand? What if you offered the car in green and nobody wanted it, but you went ahead and purchased 1000' of green vinyl? The more bulk you buy, the lower the cost for that color. If Factory Five wraps the panels, they have to pay a labor force for that. So the labor costs are still involved. Leaving it to the builder....well, I've seen what non-trained people do with adhesive backed vinyl, and I'd almost bet that some builder would come back and say "this stuff looks horrible, there's bubbles everywhere, I need another full batch of vinyl to re-do it." It isn't like turning nuts and bolts with a wrench, it requires a special touch. And even the professionals will screw it up from time to time. And there are fixes for all of it. But I would say the skill level is on par with a professional painter. There are too many proper and improper techniques for application that the average Joe Builder is going to muck it up and hate the result. And the worst part is, if you muck it up too bad, it isn't just a quick wet-sand and polish to fix it. If you have to peel and re-wrap a section, you are talking about new sheets of material. Vinyl can't be pulled and re-applied, it stretches. Especially in a wrap scenario, where alot of the angles have to have stretched and heat-gunned to conform to curves.

As for the different body design scenarios. If it is exo-panel, that's easy work, as the pieces would be modular. Applying vinyl becomes exponentially more difficult the more complex the surface becomes, and the larger the surface becomes. So, if all the panels are small, Joe Builder with a heatgun, a bottle of dishsoap+water solution and a squeegie could easily lay the colors him/herself without too much error. If it were a full car body like a Ferrari or any full body car for that matter, the problem of seaming edges, heat stretching corners, vents and scoops, etc starts to weigh in heavily on how well it will turn out. And it isn't something that can be cured by taking your time, as mistakes happen. Large sheet vinyl, especially once it is peeled from the backing paper with the transfer paper, starts to take on a mind of its own. The slightest breeze, a misplaced elbow, an off balance sheet of backing paper, and the next thing you know 2 feet of your vinyl sheet just stuck to itself or wrinkled horribly. There are ways to correct this, but if you do it too many times, the vinyl starts to look like crap. Didn't clean the surface properly before applying? The stuff peels.

Offering custom designs...that's best left to large format printers.

[PhyrraM]

If the curretn theory that FFR is planning many smaller panels hold true, I can see the resulting smaller vinyl applications making sense.

If it has to be a large single wrap, no go.

[readymix]

Here's another thing, you can take this however you wish.

I have a vinyl plotter. And I have alot of vinyl stock available to me that I can use at my own cost. And I also don't have to pay myself labor. And I can re-do as many panels as I wish if I screw them up. And I still intend to paint this.

[D2W]

Here's another thing, you can take this however you wish.

I have a vinyl plotter. And I have alot of vinyl stock available to me that I can use at my own cost. And I also don't have to pay myself labor. And I can re-do as many panels as I wish if I screw them up. And I still intend to paint this.

Just curious as I have never seen a vinyl wrap in person. Why? is it because a wrap doesn't compare to a paint job in quality or longetivity. Please educate me.

[readymix]

Just curious as I have never seen a vinyl wrap in person. Why? is it because a wrap doesn't compare to a paint job in quality or longetivity. Please educate me.

Durability. It will stand up to weather and sunlight fine, for about 5 years at the most. But as soon as you introduce standing water, road debris (sand, rocks, pebbles, the occasional tire-tread chunk) it will rip or tear.
Appearance. It's a slight toss up, and has alot to do with install and complexity of the surface it is installed on. There are always problem spots on production vehicles with a full body. One of the big nasty spots is the bumpers, specifically the sides where it takes a sharp 90* turn. Lots of slicing and seams. This can be broken up visually on a printed wrap, but on a single color wrap you are GOING to see the seams because you can't wrap around that corner with the top of the bumper without needing to remove material and seam the edges. Seams can be done well, but they are still there. And vinyl shrinks, expands, softens in heat, and becomes brittle in cold. If you install a wrap with seams on a hot humid day, and a hot dry day rolls in, those seams will retract from eachother and be more visible. There are metallic films available, but they are thick. And if they have metallic backings, which they usually do, they also can become brittle. Reflectives are VERY brittle. But you likely wont use those as they make you look like a Police car, and that's always a bad idea.

If you want your panels to have a glossy, seamless look that will last longer than about 5 years and will tolerate some minor road damage and weather changes, I'd say stick with paint.
If you want to have colored panels on the cheap, don't care about seams, and want to be able to cheaply fix color issues caused by wrecks and damage (hitting cones) vinyl is fine.

Vinyl is for cars that you don't care so much about the details, you just want a color on it. Paint is for cars that you want to show off the details.

[D2W]

Interesting, thank you for the explanation. I wasn't aware there would be so many seams. I assume that if you do have smaller panels you could cover them without any seams? What is the typical size of the vinyl?

[readymix]

Interesting, thank you for the explanation. I wasn't aware there would be so many seams. I assume that if you do have smaller panels you could cover them without any seams? What is the typical size of the vinyl?

Vinyl comes in rolls. The roll widths can vary. But most vinyl material manufacturers (avery, 3M) will offer their stuff in a variety of widths. I usually purchase in 24" wide rolls. My plotter can cut up to 48" wide rolls. I've seen vinyl 12 and 15" widths before.
The seaming isn't necessarily a problem related to size. It also happens when you have an overly convex or concave shape to cover. Imagine taking a sheet of paper and trying to cover a coffee cup with it inside and out using only that one piece (I looked at my desk for the first object I could find...next was an ashtray). You will have to cut it. But to cover the entire surface, you will have to cut it into pieces, notch those pieces in spots, and make them fit together. Those seams are where things get ugly. Adding heat will cause the vinyl to stretch and become pliable, which can help to a certain point, but you still have the problem of extra material where things curve, that will either wrinkle or you have to cut it out and merge the seams.

[Oppenheimer]

thanks ReadyMix, exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

[readymix]

The other problem you run into when wrapping around convex and concave surfaces is that when you heat and stretch, the ends of the material can peel back. And as soon as you have a slight peel, water and chemicals get in there and cause havoc. Seams collect dirt and because vinyl has an adhesive backing, those seams are usually kindof sticky, and thus, that dirt becomes near impossible to remove.
If the 818 has all flat panels or panels that have very minor curvature, vinyl would be easy to apply. But any vents or scoops for air, areas around headlamp openings or other body fixtures, that's where you will run into issues.

[readymix]

thanks ReadyMix, exactly the kind of info I was looking for.

NO problemo. I love making vinyl graphics for things. And talking about them. It's a heap of fun, and probably the best little side business ever. It doesn't rake in much money, but that's because I usually price things a little bit lower than I should. But it stays afloat. Plus, I love making stupid little stickers and signs for myself. Like the little placard here at my desk that has a Target Store logo at the top, and says "Toilet Cameras are for research use only!" underneath it. It looks completely official. And I've been debating putting it up in the local Target store bathroom as a joke.

[D2W]

good info, thank you

[Oppenheimer]

What about vinyl as accents? Carbon fiber look, etc? I could see where the same issue of seems collecting dirt would apply, but I'm envisioning where one somewhat simple, complete panel could be covered, with the vinyl wrapping around behind the panel to unseen areas (so novisible edges to collect visible dirt, less exposed edges, etc).

Colored Accents or CF, etc. This would certainly lend itself more to multi-paneled bodies than to large, fluid shapes, so final body design might make the whole idea moot.

How vinyl lend itself to such to accent panels?

[readymix]

Well, sure. That is always possible. Again, shape complexity issues still apply. But as an example, if you styled the 818 after, say, an Audi R8. That CF panel behind the door is big and flat. That would be easy to accomplish.
And people do that. I've had a number of requests from Subaru owners to apply flat black vinyl to the roof panel of their Impreza. It's big and flat, what curves it does have roll under a plastic runner seam on the roof line (where the roof rack would bolt up) so that can be easily hidden. Police cars sometimes have the front door or both pairs of doors wrapped in a white vinyl overlay on an all black car, instead of painting them white.

[Brian Apple]

I have done large vinyl layups as well. As readymix said, it has a lifetime problem. If you are not looking to use it as a daily driver(sitting in the sun all day) or winter driver, it will last a lot longer. I have a car I did out there after six years and the hood is all that has been redone due to engine heat. Wrapping would have to have some overlap of intake duct seams to not show gap when it shrinks a little after aging. Anyway, a few pics.
Brian
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u302/thebigappler/nossubaru.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u302/thebigappler/skulls.jpg
http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u302/thebigappler/galant.jpg

[readymix]

Nice work! You printing or is that multi-layer?

And you're absolutely right. If this car remained garaged its whole life and only got driven a couple thousand miles a year, then yeah, you'll probably be fine with vinyl...assuming you can get it to look good on the given panels.

[Brian Apple]

Multi layer, no printer as of yet, It would speed things up though......

[readymix]

Multi layer, no printer as of yet, It would speed things up though......

Yeah, a printer would be awesome, but I don't have the space for one, and I don't have 15k lying around for a decent one.

[bromikl]

When I first heard the body panels would be no-paint gel coat, I imagined they would be available in two or three color options. Add vinyl graphics and/or accents, and you've got a winner!