Build suggestions?

[ifonul]

Hello everyone,

I'm new over here, and trying to figure things out. I saw a MK4 at a recent car show, and I really liked it; I also think I would really enjoy building one, so I'm trying to figure out what it would take.

I've seen estimations about build times/costs and I've seen they vary wildly, so I won't ask for that :)

To get an idea about my cost though, I am trying to figure out what engine/transmission I should get. I'm looking for something street drivable, I don't want to race this thing (or at least not now). I've tried to do my homework and searched this forum, but without a lot of success. I'm looking for a solution as 'ready to run' as possible, so I was mostly looking at crate engines.
I've seen the following Windsor engines:
302
351
390
I believe anything more than this would be too much for what I'm looking for. The power ratings for these vary widely, as are the accessories they come with (alternator, belts, carburetor, etc). Most of the engines I see are carbureted, but it seems that from about 1980s there are EFI versions... This probably gives you a very good idea about my familiarity with these engines - that is none. I'm a pretty handy guy I think, but my most difficult car related project until now was replacing a timing belt on a V6 engine... need some help here :)
I'm looking for any pointer/suggestions on which engine to choose, carbureted or not, and any pointers to engines/kits to buy (as fully assembled as possible), if this is not against forum rules.

Oh, one more thing: I'm 6'2", would I easily fit into it? I drove a Lotus among other things and that thing is tight! :) Any ideas where I could test-drive or at least sit into one of these in NorCal (Bay area)?

Thanks in advance!
-Virgil

[David Hodgkins]

Hi Virgil,

What is your budget? This is important as it will decide what "class" of drivetrain you will want, ie sportsman vs Boss block, T5 vs TKO, etc.

If you can get down to OC you can sit in my car. You won't have any issues getting in to a roadster with a few simple "adjustments" to the build spec.

Welcome to the forum!

:)

[edwardb]

First, welcome to the forum and good luck with your decision.

Easy question first. Yes, at 6'2" you can fit in one of these. Guys bigger than that have figured it out. Factory Five is now selling a big and tall version of their regular Roadster seat. That's a place to start. There are other seat options that yield more space as well. Other ideas that may allow you to fit better include raising the steering wheel a bit (an easy mod) or some have gone to a removable steering wheel.

For the engine, there are just so many variables. Multiple threads have been started by new members such as yourself and opinions are all over the map. Without recommending a specific engine, what I'm going to say is the following. First decide how the car is going to be used. Sounds like you're about there. Then you need to think about your budget, and how much you're willing (or interested) to do yourself. There are at least three forum vendors -- Gordon Levy, Mike Forte, and Engine Factory -- that you can talk with and get ideas about cost and what they can provide based on your budget and requirements. Engine choice will drive other important decisions like transmission and differential gearing.

Carb vs. EFI is right up there with arguing politics or religion. Carbs are more traditional, and can be made to work very well. But choosing the right carb is critical IMO. EFI is definitely more modern, likely more efficient, also likely more expensive. But there is also some setup involved. Suggest when you talk to engine builders also ask them for EFI options. The carb vs. EFI decision is an important one for early in your build because it affects certain aspects of your build, like the tank, fuel pump and lines, possibly electrical wiring, etc. Also learn about the emissions and title/license requirements for your location. That may take you a certain direction as well.

[CraigS]

I am a strong proponent of the 351. The internals are one step up in strength from the 302. A very easy to drive 400-425hp is available w/ a standard rebuild on a short block upgrading the pistons to a little higher compression ratio (and reusing the stock crank and rods) as long as you top it with something like this.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/power-packages/top-end-kits.shtml
Scroll down to the 2090 or 2092. This is what my engine is and I have beat on it for 7 years. These few extra cubes mean you have what you want at below 6000rpm so no need for any expensive valve train parts. Also you have the option to go as big as 408 later on and still use the same exhaust and intakes you have. Carb vs efi is still a decision. I have carb, wish I had efi, but the price bump vs the performance bump isn't worth it to me now. The difference is less when you are buying it all at the beginning. Welcome to our club, assuming you decide to proceed, this will be a life changer in a very positive way. I started 10 years ago and the funny thing now is, I have only a couple of friends who do not have Cobras. But I have 5-6 friends who would drop everything and come to my rescue 24/7. That is a great feeling.

[68GT500MAN]

Welcome to the forum. As you can see, there are may opinions about the topics you ask. I believe that you can have a very nice street car using a small block Ford (302 or 351) with about 300 to 350 hp. A t-5 from Gordon Levi would make a nice choice for the transmission (he can also supply the engine). I would go with 3.27 or 3.55 gears in the rear end. Get the best brakes that you can and presto, you will have a real nice ride. I am down in Fresno if you want to stop by and sit in one without the "big and tall" modifications.
Enjoy the fact finding and build,
Doug

[ifonul]

Really appreciate the pointers everyone. Glad to hear that height is not really an issue.

I do think it makes sense for me to go after an 351; the t5 transmission seems to be rated for up to 265 LB/FT, most 351s I see have around 400HP and >400 LB/FT, and they seem to be coupled in kits with a TKO 600 transmission however.

Sorry if I am touching a delicate subject, but EFI seems like a good idea for me, from previous experiences I think it's more reliable (and maybe more difficult to 'fix' if that becomes a problem). Any other downsides I should be aware of except cost?

Engine Factory seems to have quite a few kits that include everything from alternator to transmission, and that's on the lines of what I'm looking for, even if on the expensive side. One more question: I see on their site a Coyote engine and transmission kit; is seems to be a modern engine, cheaper and maybe a bit less powerful, with very good reviews afaikt on this forum. Any pros/cons?

Thanks again for all the tips, this looks like a fun and probably never-ending project, as I'm sure you can always find the next thing to upgrade/modify.

[68GT500MAN]

You are right about a stock T-5, Gordon beefs it up to handle a lot more torque. I have one in my roadster behind a 427w and have never had a problem.
Doug

[2bking]

The Coyote is an excellent choice and most of the fitment issues have been worked out. From what others are saying, it's not much more expensive than other engine choices but I never priced them. I'm not quite finished so no real driving experience from me but others really like the smoothness and claim they are a little quieter than the bigger cube engines. It's a production engine with a warranty backed by Ford, 412 HP min and 400 Ft-Lbs torque, and loves to rev well past 6,000 RPM. The down side is the cost of adders such as headers.. If you thinking this route, your budget needs to be over $40k

[R Thomas]

So many choices and about as many as there are members here. If you like the 351 go that way. You mentioned some confusion about carb vs efi. That debate will go on forever, perhaps this might help to know you can run a carb and stock distributor on a 351 to start and if you decide you need efi and electronic ignition you could change over later. There are several efi systems which bolt on using a carb manifold. A big part of that decision may also lay with your state regulations. Check and see what emissions restrictions apply in your area. Some treat the car as an antique (more than 25 years old) others expect the engine to meet the requirements of its year of manufacture.

[edwardb]

I do think it makes sense for me to go after an 351; the t5 transmission seems to be rated for up to 265 LB/FT, most 351s I see have around 400HP and >400 LB/FT, and they seem to be coupled in kits with a TKO 600 transmission however.

Well, first make sure you're only looking at a T-5z. They're rated at 330 hp/torque. Significantly more than the standard T5 you reference. Welcome to the world of escalating cost with HP. If you do go 351, and plan to add more power in the future, I would be looking at a TKO. Just do it right in the first place. The other option is a custom T-5, like supplied by Gordon Levy, which have sufficient strength. But a box stock TKO600 is just about unbreakable in these things. I've gone 302 based blocks in both of my builds. They fit very nicely, are very accessible, parts are widely available for a relatively good value, and it's neither hard nor expensive to get them into the sweet spot of 350-400 HP. No question 351's make easy power and have a lot of power potential. Not going to put them down. Just be aware they are a bit tighter. Plug and header access is tight, and the added height does limit some options to stay under the hood. All manageable though.


Sorry if I am touching a delicate subject, but EFI seems like a good idea for me, from previous experiences I think it's more reliable (and maybe more difficult to 'fix' if that becomes a problem). Any other downsides I should be aware of except cost?

No need to apologize. My comments were only that it's an emotional topic and you will get lots of opinions. And of course every one is right. Personally, I wouldn't agree EFI is any more reliable. Hard to beat the reliability of a good old carb setup. I know it's a broad generalization, but the majority of problems I've seen with carbs were either the wrong one or not knowing how to set it up. The right carb set up properly will run great. Especially in the limited use of these vehicles. But EFI has a bunch of positives, and many choose to go that way. I completely understand and if I do another build will probably take the plunge myself.


Engine Factory seems to have quite a few kits that include everything from alternator to transmission, and that's on the lines of what I'm looking for, even if on the expensive side. One more question: I see on their site a Coyote engine and transmission kit; is seems to be a modern engine, cheaper and maybe a bit less powerful, with very good reviews afaikt on this forum. Any pros/cons?

Lots good going on with a Coyote, as others have responded. Early on there were some issues to deal with, but now I think it's a proven and excellent choice. Like all mod motors, they are also quite tight, and access is somewhat limited. But given the quality and reliability, once installed it probably won't need to be touched. Engine Factory is a forum vendor, and while I know of people that have dealt with them, I haven't personally. My main recommendation would be to talk to several vendors and get multiple quotes before choosing one.

[Avalanche325]

As you can see, there is a lot of engine advice. You can also see that it is all over the place. I think that comes from the fact that it is hard to go wrong on engine choice. Figuring out how you are going to use the car, budget, and just what you like are the main factors on engine choice. Ready to run is commonly called "turn key". When you get to that point, make sure your engine builder agrees with you on what that term means. To me, that literally means every single part is there. Drop in and hook things up. Not one trip to the parts store. Definitions vary.

OK. I am going to try to state some facts with little to no opinion here:

EFI vs Carb:
EFI is not more reliable. If something goes wrong, you are more likely to be calling a tow truck with EFI. Carbs start running bad with a problem. I am not saying EFI has a high failure rate. Just that "EFI is more reliable" is a myth.

EFI is more fuel efficient. EFI is more "street friendly" as in hit the key and drive away on a cold morning.

Carbs give a little more power all else being equal. Cheaper if you are buying new.

Carbs do not take any more tuning than EFI. They both have to be tuned! Once they are tuned correctly, you don't have to touch either one.

Engines: (Sizes mentioned are common sizes. There are more)

There are four main types for these cars. Windsor based (302 and 351), Modular (4.6L), Big blocks (390, 427,428,460), and Coyote (5.0L). This choice will give the car a different personality.

302 based includes 306 (this is the typical rebuilt size - bored .030" over), 331 stroker, and 347 stroker. 363 with an aftermarket block. (+$2200 ish)
Light weight (good handling). Least expensive. Easy to work on. Lots of room under the hood. Lots of aftermarket parts. Stock heads are terrible. Typical performance engines are 330 - 500HP.

351 based includes 408. 427 (not to be confused with a BB 427), 445, 454 with an aftermarket block.
Basically the same engine as a 302 with a taller deck height. Weighs about 60lbs more. Larger displacement = more power capacity without being radical. A little more expensive to build ($40 here, $50 there for components). Less room under the hood. (intake clearance, getting to spark plugs). Bigger crank journals - sounds good but actually a bad thing. (read about reciprocating weight and bearing speed) Some stroker cranks use smaller journals to fix that. Stock heads are terrible. 380 - 600hp.

4.6L. Physically larger. Quieter. Smoother idle. More expensive to build. They may be getting a bit orphaned with the Coyote being out. 2 valve and 4 valve versions.

Coyote 5.0
Physically huge. Fuel efficient. You can get a brand new one. Quiet and smooth. EFI. There are enough installed now where it is figured out. More expensive. 400 -600hp (supercharged)

Big block.
Heavy. Expensive. Easy big HP on even a mild one. Period correct if you do a 427 or 428. High wow factor.

The only way to get an engine wrong is too little or too much HP for you. You don't want to buy an engine and in six months be looking for more power. You also don't want to drive the car, scare yourself, and hardly ever drive it again. FFR says that 400 HP is the sweet spot for most people.

If you decide to do it, you will have a lot of fun, learn a few things, and make some friends. A pretty good deal.

[edwardb]

As you can see, there is a lot of engine advice. You can also see that it is all over the place. I think that comes from the fact that it is hard to go wrong on engine choice. Figuring out how you are going to use the car, budget, and just what you like are the main factors on engine choice. Ready to run is commonly called "turn key". When you get to that point, make sure your engine builder agrees with you on what that term means. To me, that literally means every single part is there. Drop in and hook things up. Not one trip to the parts store. Definitions vary.

OK. I am going to try to state some facts with little to no opinion here:

EFI vs Carb:
EFI is not more reliable. If something goes wrong, you are more likely to be calling a tow truck with EFI. Carbs start running bad with a problem. I am not saying EFI has a high failure rate. Just that "EFI is more reliable" is a myth.

EFI is more fuel efficient. EFI is more "street friendly" as in hit the key and drive away on a cold morning.

Carbs give a little more power all else being equal. Cheaper if you are buying new.

Carbs do not take any more tuning than EFI. They both have to be tuned! Once they are tuned correctly, you don't have to touch either one.

Engines: (Sizes mentioned are common sizes. There are more)

There are four main types for these cars. Windsor based (302 and 351), Modular (4.6L), Big blocks (390, 427,428,460), and Coyote (5.0L). This choice will give the car a different personality.

302 based includes 306 (this is the typical rebuilt size - bored .030" over), 331 stroker, and 347 stroker. 363 with an aftermarket block. (+$2200 ish)
Light weight (good handling). Least expensive. Easy to work on. Lots of room under the hood. Lots of aftermarket parts. Stock heads are terrible. Typical performance engines are 330 - 500HP.

351 based includes 408. 427 (not to be confused with a BB 427), 445, 454 with an aftermarket block.
Basically the same engine as a 302 with a taller deck height. Weighs about 60lbs more. Larger displacement = more power capacity without being radical. A little more expensive to build ($40 here, $50 there for components). Less room under the hood. (intake clearance, getting to spark plugs). Bigger crank journals - sounds good but actually a bad thing. (read about reciprocating weight and bearing speed) Some stroker cranks use smaller journals to fix that. Stock heads are terrible. 380 - 600hp.

4.6L. Physically larger. Quieter. Smoother idle. More expensive to build. They may be getting a bit orphaned with the Coyote being out. 2 valve and 4 valve versions.

Coyote 5.0
Physically huge. Fuel efficient. You can get a brand new one. Quiet and smooth. EFI. There are enough installed now where it is figured out. More expensive. 400 -600hp (supercharged)

Big block.
Heavy. Expensive. Easy big HP on even a mild one. Period correct if you do a 427 or 428. High wow factor.

The only way to get an engine wrong is too little or too much HP for you. You don't want to buy an engine and in six months be looking for more power. You also don't want to drive the car, scare yourself, and hardly ever drive it again. FFR says that 400 HP is the sweet spot for most people.

If you decide to do it, you will have a lot of fun, learn a few things, and make some friends. A pretty good deal.

Really outstanding post. Can't argue with any of the points mentioned, and excellent summary. I've brought up the 351 larger journal issue before, and some are quick to point out it may not be an issue at the RPM's we're running. Could be. But my engine builder said the same thing. If he uses that block, he reduces them as you described.

[ifonul]

Really outstanding post. Can't argue with any of the points mentioned, and excellent summary. I've brought up the 351 larger journal issue before, and some are quick to point out it may not be an issue at the RPM's we're running. Could be. But my engine builder said the same thing. If he uses that block, he reduces them as you described.

Could not agree more, this is a really amazing summary. I think it should be made sticky for newcomers like me. Really appreciated, very informative and unbiased.

[Avalanche325]

Wow. All that writing and I didn't say anything stupid? Must have been my birthday or something. Oh!, it was.

[jayguy]

There are also 3 valve versions of the 4.6 (Mustang GT 2005-2010). 300hp stock, on up to 500+ with supercharger.

Great post.

[skullandbones]

Virgil,

The lines between EFI and carbs is getting somewhat blurred. I'm going to a "4 barrel" looking setup with a throttle body that sits on a Parker style hi rise and fuel rails down near the valves (sequential). So on some setups you have to look twice to see if it is carbed or something else. I think the advantage EFI has is the aftermarket offerings that allow for tuning far more than with a carb setup. They are getting more and more plug and play. You might have to have some dyno time if you have power adders but if naturally aspirated, probably not. It's a great time to be building.

Good luck,

WEK.