It hasn't been a good week...

[Ray W.]

So close, yet so far… That's how I feel right now. I ordered the stainless sheet metal and perforated to make my muffler/boom tubes-spent over $250 on that + two 2 1/2" 22 degree bends that were about $30 each. The welder I've been working with has been great, always charging me a VERY reasonable rate. We were getting along so well that I didn't ask for a price quote on welding up the tubes. Now I see that I was being strung along and made to believe I could trust him. Big mistake.

The tubes are 48" long and have a seam down each side. Total of 96" of weld bead on each of the two pipes, plus a few beads at the angles where the tubes exit from under the car. To be generous, say there's 18 feet of weld bead-total. I did all the cutting out of all the metal myself, all he had to do was clamp a few pieces in place and tack them (which I helped him do, took about 20 minutes), then weld them up. I'm not talking about welding the J-pipes to the tubes, that still has to be done. My bill? $360 When I asked why it was so much, he told me it should have been over $500, because he used $165 worth of welding wire + the gas and 6 hours labor. (I had to leave after we tacked them together-should have stayed)

I wasn't happy, but since I didn't even ask for a price quote up front, I had to pay. Total investment in the unfinished exhaust is now over $670, the welds look like crap, I counted three unwelded places that will leak unless fixed, and there's 3/8" of bow in the tubes over the 48" length, caused by shrinkage-which I'm sure means they're full of stresses. I hope they'll relax a little after a few heat cycles and not crack.

So, I'm in the middle of the project and I'm committed, so I swallow my pride and tell him I'll be back to get the J-pipes tacked after I get them mocked up. I go home and do that, then call the next day and leave a message. That was four days ago, and now it's more than clear that he has no intention of finishing the job. So, I got out the old credit card and ordered my own machine… I know how to MIG weld and have made motorcycle frames in the past, so that's not an issue. I just didn't want to spend money to buy a machine that I could have used to paint my car.

To top it off, this past Monday I saw a drop of gear oil on the floor under the pumpkin of my Forte rear end… I tightened the bolts on the cover a little, hoping for the best, and carefully cleaned off all the oil. Today there was a fresh drop on the floor. I hope it's not a sign of shoddy work on the inside-but now I've got to spend more money to fix it. Right now, even my wife looking at me and saying "You have a *obra" won't even make me crack a smile-and that's bad. Disheartened anger is about the only label I can put on how I'm feeling right now.

Oh, I ordered 2 two pound spools of stainless welding wire, they cost $18.69 each. I saw an 11 pound spool for $80 while I was shopping. I wonder how long a $165 stainless weld bead would be… Maybe it's better that I don't know.

[edwardb]

I can't relate to your specific chain of events, because I haven't tried anything like that. But I can relate to how you feel. During both of my builds, there were times when I wondered what I had gotten into, and whether there would ever be a happy ending. I'll bet every builder will admit to this at some points during their build. Sometimes it helps to walk away for a little while and clear your head. I took several breaks during my builds, just because I needed to. Sometimes it's just turn out the lights and call it a day. After a little rest and clear thinking, a plan comes to mind. My personal lowest point was during my Mk3 build when the "perfect, only 200 miles" crate engine purchased on eBay turned out to be a high mileage worn out stock block with some aftermarket heads and intake. Found out a year after I bought it, so there was no recourse. Took me that long to get to first start, when I found it wouldn't hold any oil pressure once it reached operating temps. Rookie mistake on my part, but still a total shaft by a company that's still in business. (Not a forum vendor...) Full rebuild and a bunch of new parts later (and a solid infusion of cash) had a great motor and car turned out to be a blast. But there were definitely some tough times in there.

Power through it. :p

[Doutie]

Ray, I feel for you, expectations are hard to chew on when things go wrong. I'd like to introduce you to a neet exhaust fabrication company. They do super work, work with the customers to fab custom pipes and headers and have been used by other FFR members. Check out http://www.stainlessheaders.com/ on the web.If you look around their site ( fabricating custom headers ) you will find a link or a video series on how they do custom headers and great instructions and tips about welding stainless. Good luck!!!!! Doutie

[R Thomas]

Ray sorry to hear about the trouble with the pipes. Hopefully things will get back on-track soon. Unfortunately no welding skills here to help you out, Ironic since I spent 16 years working for a major industrial gas company. Never picked up the business end of a torch in all that time. I am confident you will work through this and things will be better when those pipes hum a sweet tune.

[Ray W.]

Thanks for the encouragement, guys. I know I'm not the only one who has been taken advantage of or had to endure a little misfortune, and that others have dealt with worse. Edward, I hope the guys who sold you that engine lose a connecting rod in their daily driver on the interstate, on vacation, hundreds of miles from home. Doutie, thanks for the info about the website with instructions for welding stainless. I'll check it out, because I've never welded stainless before. R, I hope the pipes end up being worth all the trouble. I don't think they're unusable-just will require more work. I also don't have any idea how loud, or how quiet, they will be. I'm hoping for semi-quiet with a mello tone, since I put three sections of fiberglass packing in each tube. Time, and unfortunately more money, will tell.

[Ray W.]

I decided to contact Mike Forte about the leaking rear diff and it didn't go well. First he asked if I removed the axles to change the brake brackets. I didn't. The brackets, calipers and rotors were already installed when I received the diff. After I responded to that question, Mike emailed back and said:

"OKAY. THE PINION SHAFT BOLT IS TORQUED. THE REAR COVER WAS NOT. IT WAS ALSO NOT SHIPPED WITH OIL INSTALLED. THE REAREND WAS NOT PAINTED EITHER, IT WAS PRIMED FOR SHIPPING."

I emailed back, saying: "And you didn't think I needed to be told that?" (I was told the rear would be shipped without the included oil installed the day I placed the order) In this case, it wasn't miscommunication, it was NO communication. Mike did not respond to that question at all, so I'm assuming he's not going to stand behind his product. Obviously, he believes I was supposed to go behind him and check ALL his work….

When I order a complete rear diff, I expect it to be ready to install (minus paint), and so would 99.9% of the rest of us. It's like ordering an engine and then finding out the hard way they didn't tighten the bolts on the oil pan. I mean, obviously you were supposed to remove the pan and check the whole bottom end to make sure it was torqued to spec before putting the oil in, RIGHT??????

I wish I had ordered the rear diff from someone else. GOD forbid there's anything else wrong with it….

[Mike N]

Ray. Where are you located? If you are close to me you can stop by and use my TIG machine to do your own welding.

[Ray W.]

Hi, Mike. Thank you for the offer, it is appreciated. I'm near Sumter, SC, so not all that close, and unfortunately I have no experience with TIG welding. My welder is supposed to arrive today, and I plan to go get the gas tomorrow morning. I'll get it done. I did get some good news yesterday. Denny's shipped my drive shaft.

[David Hodgkins]

Hang in there Ray! I feel for you man. I've been there, for sure. In my 1st build, I used to get to a freeze point where I couldn't see how to proceed at all. A good friend Paul Mastroianni (RIP) bent a good portion of my brake lines and ended up doing a lot of my wiring. When I received my T5 from a forum vendor it looked like it had been rattle-can painted (it had, he used "seasoned" cores). I received a set of GT brakes from a vendor with a torn boot and was told I had to buy a rebuild kit to fix it. (Anyone need a set of brakes?) I also have a set of worthless SN95 front spindles that the vendor really had no business selling me.

Bottom line is we are in a hobby where due diligence is REALLY required before pulling the trigger and we are supported by a bunch of well-intentioned mom-and-pop shops run by regular folks who try but don't always get things right. PATIENCE is more than a virtue, it's required!

So be patient; you WILL get there! Step back for a breather if need be and remember, all the tribulations definitely disappear after you're first cruise in a car that YOU built and installed every nut and bolt on!

Heck now you get to learn a new skill!

:)

[ehansen007]

This is EXACTLY why there needs to be a refrigerator within arms reach of the build stocked full with beer. The 818 and all of the WRX parts gave me some serious heartburn last year and the 33 doors and trunk made me want to start a dumpster fire. LOL. If it were easy, anyone could do it. You learn something new each time. In my opinion, you either buy a donor car where everything is running or buy it all new. I bought a used 650CFM holley from another member here which was supposed to be working great but it had a hole in the float! Oh well.

[Ray W.]

Thanks for the support, guys. the beer fridge sounds like it would be a good idea for times like this. UPS delivered my welder a couple of hours ago. I unpacked the regulator so I can take it with me in the morning, as I need to purchase an adapter to connect to certain tanks. Once I finish the exhaust, I'm pulling the body out. I ordered it with no cut outs, so there will be some cautious moments when it comes to the roll bar and windshield holes. That's what I'm the most apprehensive about.

I'll put the body on and mark any aluminum that needs trimming, fit the windshield, wipers and mark the motor for mounting, do the gas filler neck, then take it back off. When it goes back on, it will be the final time-until I remove it this fall for paint. At least that is the plan. If the money isn't there, I'll continue to drive in gel coat. More good news-FFR has shipped my Lemans gas cap. WHEW! That's a relief.

[mike forte]

Hi Ray,
I'm sorry you're unhappy with your rear axle assembly...
The rearend you have is ready to install once you fill it with oil. The rear cover is not torqued. I don't torque the bolts and don't because everyone paints the rearend usually requiring disassembly to paint everything without overspray.
I would torque the cover, top off the oil and drive it away. The small leak won't need a new gasket.
Mike Forte

[mjazzka]

Good to see a vendor respond so quickly with a solution. At least you don't need a new gasket, Ray! Hopefully that will stop the leak.

The welding job sounds like a nightmare, that's a load of crap you went through. Sounds like the end is in sight though, stay strong.

I also can't emphasize enough the power of the beer fridge. Shiner Bock, of course!

[Ray W.]

As i stated in email, I tightened the bolts several days ago and wiped off all the oil. It is still leaking. At no point (until after I had a problem) did you tell me anything about not tightening the cover bolts. To be fair, I'll get out the torque wrench and tighten the bolts to the specs you sent in email. If it still leaks after that, it's definitely not my fault.



Hi Ray,
I'm sorry you're unhappy with your rear axle assembly...
The rearend you have is ready to install once you fill it with oil. The rear cover is not torqued. I don't torque the bolts and don't because everyone paints the rearend usually requiring disassembly to paint everything without overspray.
I would torque the cover, top off the oil and drive it away. The small leak won't need a new gasket.
Mike Forte

[Jacob McCrea]

If it would help I have an extra cover gasket in my shop. I'd be happy to throw it in an envelope to you since it will sit on the shelf until Doomsday unless someone else uses it.

[Ray]

I decided to contact Mike Forte about the leaking rear diff and it didn't go well. First he asked if I removed the axles to change the brake brackets. I didn't. The brackets, calipers and rotors were already installed when I received the diff. After I responded to that question, Mike emailed back and said:

"OKAY. THE PINION SHAFT BOLT IS TORQUED. THE REAR COVER WAS NOT. IT WAS ALSO NOT SHIPPED WITH OIL INSTALLED. THE REAREND WAS NOT PAINTED EITHER, IT WAS PRIMED FOR SHIPPING."

I emailed back, saying: "And you didn't think I needed to be told that?" (I was told the rear would be shipped without the included oil installed the day I placed the order) In this case, it wasn't miscommunication, it was NO communication. Mike did not respond to that question at all, so I'm assuming he's not going to stand behind his product. Obviously, he believes I was supposed to go behind him and check ALL his work….

When I order a complete rear diff, I expect it to be ready to install (minus paint), and so would 99.9% of the rest of us. It's like ordering an engine and then finding out the hard way they didn't tighten the bolts on the oil pan. I mean, obviously you were supposed to remove the pan and check the whole bottom end to make sure it was torqued to spec before putting the oil in, RIGHT??????

I wish I had ordered the rear diff from someone else. GOD forbid there's anything else wrong with it….

I would not expect to receive a rear end already filled with oil. That might have required a hazardous materials shipping company and would have greatly increased the costs. Since you were going to paint the unit anyway, the un-torqued bolts are, to me at least, a non-issue. Mike's explanation about most builders remove the rear cover to avoid over spray is certainly reasonable.

This won't be the last glitch in your build and I know it's not the first one either.

Sorry that you're having trouble,

Ray

[Ray W.]

I don't understand how you can say the un-torqued bolts are a non-issue. If you didn't know they were not tightened, it would be an issue for you after you put the oil in, the same as it is for me now. I wasn't told the bolts weren't tightened! I had no intention of removing the rear cover, because I didn't buy the fancy aluminum cover! My cover is plain steel, and I spray bombed the whole thing with rustoleum. I didn't have a problem with having to install the oil myself. Good grief…. You're on the wrong page here….

Edit: Sorry, after re-reading my post, I can see that came across more harshly than I meant for it to. I'm doing a budget build, and I can see how someone picturing a cast aluminum cover in your mind's eye might cause you to reach that conclusion. I didn't buy the fancy cover, but I did spend $1800 on the diff. I think spending that much money warrants a note, or an email saying: "The rear cover bolts are not torqued down, just in case you want to remove the cover, or replace it with a cast aluminum one after painting. Make sure you tighten it before adding the gear oil." If you think that's too much to ask, then we will have to agree to disagree.



I would not expect to receive a rear end already filled with oil. That might have required a hazardous materials shipping company and would have greatly increased the costs. Since you were going to paint the unit anyway, the un-torqued bolts are, to me at least, a non-issue. Mike's explanation about most builders remove the rear cover to avoid over spray is certainly reasonable.

This won't be the last glitch in your build and I know it's not the first one either.

Sorry that you're having trouble,

Ray

[Ray W.]

If it would help I have an extra cover gasket in my shop. I'd be happy to throw it in an envelope to you since it will sit on the shelf until Doomsday unless someone else uses it.

Thank you very much for the offer. If torquing the bolts to specs doesn't fix the leak (and I doubt it will, but I will be honest and post if it does) I will take you up on the offer and pay the shipping expenses-though I believe Mike Forte should step up and take responsibility for not giving me information that I needed, which caused the oil on my concrete floor in the first place.

[David Hodgkins]

Ray, while I can sympathize with your oil issue (I dropped half a quart last weekend by not tightening a remote oil filter hose) and frustration, you need to take a little responsibility here. I assume you are not a mechanic by trade. I'm certainly not. So it's our responsibility to learn to go over every part that arrives at our door to make sure it's as we expect it. You can't just take everything as it arrives and put it on the car. This applies to all parts, not just big ticket items.

Some vendors give explicit instructions on parts because they package them together as a kit and recognize that their customers are neophytes like us (me) and need to be guided through the install process. Breeze Automotive comes to mind. Mark gets premium pricing because of it and I gladly pay it so I don't get a package of bolts and rods and have to figure out how to turn it into a lower radiator support myself. He supplies grease packs and small tools if needed. Now Mike, he's a parts guy. He runs a performance shop that sells to us FFR builders, as well as to a mechanic down the street rebuilding an old Nova. That's not to say he's a low price Walmart guy either. He does sell FFR specific part kits that have instructions included. But that's not his core business.

The bottom line is that we as hobbyists have to recognize that we sometimes don't even know what we don't know, and need to ask as many questions as possible and really work through every step of the build. Lord knows I ask Mike, and other vendors, a TON of questions! And I rely on forum folks to witness the build process and post a ton of pics so errors can be seen and noted by guys who are better than I am at this stuff. AND, I call folks I've met over the years in this hobby for their advice. A LOT. In my mind I'm kind of pesky that way but they don't seem to mind and we've become great friends over time.

BTW I've told you this before but I think your doing a fantastic job on your build. I didn't have the guts to try under-car exhaust on my build, too much fabrication. But yours is very cool and hopefully in the future someone will use it as a template to try on their build.

:)

EDIT: PS you might want to epoxy that concrete; makes cleanups a lot easier. ;)

[Ray W.]

Thanks for the kind words about my build, David. Just for comparison's sake, I can use TCI transmissions as an example. I received an information packet with my trans that warns you in redundancy about every mistake you could possibly make. Right now I'm taking another hit, because when I went back to find the email where Mike Forte mentioned the torque specs for the rear cover, I realized that I didn't read the whole email. It says this:

HI RAY,
I HAVE THE GASKET FOR $7.00 PLUS 2 QUARTS 85-140 OIL FOR $24.00 WITH SHIPPING $16.00.
DIDN'T YOU REMOVE YOUR AXLES TO INSTALL THE CALIPER BRACKETS? THE SPIDER GEAR SHAFT BOLT SHOULD BE CHECKED IF YOU DIDN'T TIGHTEN IT.
PLEASE TORQUE THE COVER BOLTS TO 18-22 FOOT LBS.

So, now it's clear that I'll have to remove the cover and check every single bolt. Here's the bottom line. If I felt confident enough to tear into a rear end, I would have bought a core and built the damn thing myself…. I'd be willing to bet that if I'd ordered a complete rear end from Moser, all I would have to do is put oil in the thing and bolt it in… What I don't know wouldn't be an issue. The fact is, Mike didn't care if I had any problems with my rear diff. I'm sure any other kind of problem would have been dealt with in the same manner as this one. It's easy when you have a cop out like "I just sell parts, it's up to you to make sure your new rear end is put together correctly." This makes me want to puke…. Just let this thread die now. If it blows up into a shouting match, it will be deleted, and then it won't help future builders with their decision about who to buy parts from.



Ray, while I can sympathize with your oil issue (I dropped half a quart last weekend by not tightening a remote oil filter hose) and frustration, you need to take a little responsibility here. I assume you are not a mechanic by trade. I'm certainly not. So it's our responsibility to learn to go over every part that arrives at our door to make sure it's as we expect it. You can't just take everything as it arrives and put it on the car. This applies to all parts, not just big ticket items.

Some vendors give explicit instructions on parts because they package them together as a kit and recognize that their customers are neophytes like us (me) and need to be guided through the install process. Breeze Automotive comes to mind. Mark gets premium pricing because of it and I gladly pay it so I don't get a package of bolts and rods and have to figure out how to turn it into a lower radiator support myself. He supplies grease packs and small tools if needed. Now Mike, he's a parts guy. He runs a performance shop that sells to us FFR builders, as well as to a mechanic down the street rebuilding an old Nova. That's not to say he's a low price Walmart guy either. He does sell FFR specific part kits that have instructions included. But that's not his core business.

The bottom line is that we as hobbyists have to recognize that we sometimes don't even know what we don't know, and need to ask as many questions as possible and really work through every step of the build. Lord knows I ask Mike, and other vendors, a TON of questions! And I rely on forum folks to witness the build process and post a ton of pics so errors can be seen and noted by guys who are better than I am at this stuff. AND, I call folks I've met over the years in this hobby for their advice. A LOT. In my mind I'm kind of pesky that way but they don't seem to mind and we've become great friends over time.

BTW I've told you this before but I think your doing a fantastic job on your build. I didn't have the guts to try under-car exhaust on my build, too much fabrication. But yours is very cool and hopefully in the future someone will use it as a template to try on their build.

:)

EDIT: PS you might want to epoxy that concrete; makes cleanups a lot easier. ;)

[David Hodgkins]

Ray,

Duly noted, and you are correct; having the thread devolve into a pissing match serves no purpose. I do have a few comments. In order to switch the caliper brackets, you have to open the rear to get the axles out. I did that with the Moser rear end I got from FFR. I'd bet you'd have to do the same with a Moser ordered direct. I totally get your trepidation at opening up the diff; I purchased a complete crate motor for this build just so that I wouldn't have to touch the oil pan or build up the induction. But you still have to get in there sometimes, get dirty and go for it.

These things aren't tinker toys. It's not "Tab A into Slot B". Stuff need to be massaged, stuff needs to be fabricated. That's a fact. If you're like me you'll bleed on your build, and stuff will get spilled on the floor. I'll leave it at that.

:)

Please accept my apology if the "tinker toy" reference offends you. I'm just illustrating a point and don't mean to patronize. :)

[Ray W.]

When I received the rear end on a pallet, the brake caliper brackets, calipers and rotors, were already in place. There was no reason whatsoever for me to have to open it up. There was no reason for me to think it was anything other than a complete rear end, ready to put the oil in, rattle-can it, bolt it in and go. Given no information otherwise, anyone in my position would do just that. That's my point. Now, months later, I'm being told that I should have taken the rear cover off and check everything-and I wouldn't have been told any of this if the rear end didn't start leaking. I'm grateful that it did, because I could have been killed, or could have killed someone else if the spider bolt came loose at 60 MPH and the whole rear end suddenly locked up. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Mike Forte. A little information could save lives, and I wouldn't want innocent people's deaths on my conscience, or have that karma in store for me.



Ray,

Duly noted, and you are correct; having the thread devolve into a pissing match serves no purpose. I do have a few comments. In order to switch the caliper brackets, you have to open the rear to get the axles out. I did that with the Moser rear end I got from FFR. I'd bet you'd have to do the same with a Moser ordered direct. I totally get your trepidation at opening up the diff; I purchased a complete crate motor for this build just so that I wouldn't have to touch the oil pan or build up the induction. But you still have to get in there sometimes, get dirty and go for it.

These things aren't tinker toys. It's not "Tab A into Slot B". Stuff need to be massaged, stuff needs to be fabricated. That's a fact. If you're like me you'll bleed on your build, and stuff will get spilled on the floor. I'll leave it at that.

:)

Please accept my apology if the "tinker toy" reference offends you. I'm just illustrating a point and don't mean to patronize. :)

[frankeeski]

In the business we are in, I routinely use sub-contractors. Just because I have payed them and payed them well, does not mean that I have no responsibility for their work. Every part of the project regardless of whether I did the work or not has my name on it. After each tradesman is done with their project I inspect it to make sure it is done right. If it isn't it gets fixed, sometimes by me. It's just part of life.

I had a short block built last year for my Cobra. The first thing I did when I brought it home was to check all of the clearances and the torque on each and every one of the fasteners. Overkill? Maybe, but I have the peace of mind knowing nothing was left to chance.

Please don't take this the wrong way but I think you referred to your project as a "Budget Build". With each item you've outlined in the above thread, I think some of us had wished we had your "Budget". I went the donor route rehabbing all of the components I could and/or using the cores for rebuilt parts. Minus paint and including the now new engine to replace the 139,000 mile donor engine I am still at around 20K. That's a budget build.

Fix the leak and move on. Because if the project becomes a chore or is like work you're not going to be inclined to get it completed. Hang in there and move on to something else for a bit. Come back to the pipes and rear end after you have gotten past the ill feelings you have for them now. Or just take a break all together and re-group. It needs to be fun. :)

[mike forte]

Hi Ray,
My initial email posted above was before I spoke to Jim about the leak. Jim reminded me that your axle came with brakes. That means everything is already torqued inside to spec.
If you want to call me on the phone anytime, you are welcome to a huge amount of tech help including nights & weekends.

PS. Fanning this on any forum is just not fair.... Your problem isn't even founded yet. You said yourself it has only a few drops. To infer I have done shoddy work or an unfair business practice is slanderous...

Mike Forte
Forte's Parts Connection
508 875 0016

[David Hodgkins]

I see where this is going so rather than let it play out on this public forum I'm closing this thread. The BEST way for you two to resolve this is to get in touch via phone and work it out like the gentlemen I know you both are.

:)