Competion for the 818?!

[Wilky]

I found this recently during a search on mid engine kit cars. Interesting design.

http://www.smartsportscars.com/mk%20midi.html

[wjfawb0]

MK is one of several Lotus 7 type kit cars available. They are lighter and typically use 4 cylinder naturally aspirated engines. I've been reading locost and lotus 7 books for a couple years now researching them. If the 818 falls out of my favor for some reason, I will likely go the way of a lotus 7 kit. Most kits are more expensive than the target price proposed for the 818, and they often require paint and body work.

[Niburu]

Caterham pricing has also gotten ridiculously expensive.

[Wilky]

The Mid-Engine version is new concept I had not seen before.

[StatGSR]

would be nice if they said what engine options it was designed for....

as far as I'm concerned my choices for what kit car or exo car i like are based on my preference of what engine i want to use. Only other kit car i have seen with a suby engine is the matrix motor werks TR-42.

the only other exo i keep an eye on is the latest SLR Roadster/Razor, but that's because I'm actually much more of a honda guy than a subaru guy.

that being said, both of those are Exo's and i would much rather have a car with a roof (atleast in some form or another) so that's my reason for really being interested in the FF 818.

[Dennisb]

Flying miata has a lotus 7 kit that uses the miata has a donor. With super and turbo charging you can get the 4 cly into the 600 hp range. Build cost is about 5k less than a roadster.

[riptide motorsport]

no comp. in my opinion.

[readymix]

Yeah, not really competition here. No roof, no doors. The 818 is likely going to be a car with a full body, not a Lotus 7 copy.

[BrandonDrums]

Yeah, not really competition here. No roof, no doors. The 818 is likely going to be a car with a full body, not a Lotus 7 copy.

I ditto that. All we need is some more buzzworthy news from FFR to kick this community and 818 project back into gear.

[wjfawb0]

The miata version of the Westfield is also $18k+ shipped across the ocean from the UK. Then you have to get your donor. A brunton auto stalker is $16k plus your donor parts. These prices are without options too. If the 818 kit can be had for $10k, it will be a very popular kit.

[PhyrraM]

The miata version of the Westfield is also $18k+ shipped across the ocean from the UK. Then you have to get your donor. A brunton auto stalker is $16k plus your donor parts. These prices are without options too. If the 818 kit can be had for $10k, it will be a very popular kit.

And now we begin to see why Dave has suggested this is FFR biggest challange ever. The goal is a very lofty one, higher than some of us forum junkies seem to realize.

[LifeIsOnTheWire]

Yeah, not really competition here. No roof, no doors. The 818 is likely going to be a car with a full body, not a Lotus 7 copy.

the 818 isn't going to have a roof. but even at that, it certainly has the potential to be more 'livable' than a Lotus 7.

i've driven a scratch-built Locost car. it was a very fun car to drive, but I have no desire to ever own one. it was very uncomfortable to drive, and difficult to enjoy driving casually.

[einy]

Interesting concept, this mid engined / "seven-ish" car ... I too have been contemplating jumping into the complete DIY Locost builder's pool, but the column by Ezra Dyer revealing the first info on the 818 has temporarily (maybe permanently?) put that on hold. Previous poster indicated the Locost that he sampled would be difficult to enjoy driving casually .... I'd like to know more as to why this was the case. I can't say that I've ever driven a Locost (or similar car), but would it be that much more difficult to drive casually than it is to ride nearly any motorcycle casually? Also, until we all know what the 818 will actually look like and what features it will have, I'm not completely convinced that it'll be more livable on a daily driver basis than a Locost. That said, please expand on that statement .... "too peaky" of an engine? Too harsh of a suspension setup?

[wjfawb0]

I ride an FZ1 to work and around the backroads every now and again. My plan is to sell it once I get started on a "kit car" of some sort. I ride my bike to work between freezing and 90*F and don't mind light rain. I've got a kid now, so I'm trying to limit the time on two wheels to increase the odds that I'll be around for her for a long time. I live by the ATGATT principle, which is "all the gear all the time." Depending on the design of the car I build, I don't see it being too far fetched to think that I'll be wearing a helmet anytime I'm driving it anyway, especially if it has an exposed cage near my nogging, arms or legs. I don't want a 5mph rear end wreck to give me a severe concussion.

[blueafro]

Depending on the design of the car I build, I don't see it being too far fetched to think that I'll be wearing a helmet anytime I'm driving it anyway, especially if it has an exposed cage near my nogging, arms or legs. I don't want a 5mph rear end wreck to give me a severe concussion.

Perhaps it's a farfetched concern, but what about the potential for the inertia of a helmet to break your neck in the abrupt deceleration of a head-on? HANS? Inertial reel belts (I've assumed most people would want harnesses in this car, but perhaps not)?

[readymix]

Depending on the design of the car I build, I don't see it being too far fetched to think that I'll be wearing a helmet anytime I'm driving it anyway, especially if it has an exposed cage near my nogging, arms or legs. I don't want a 5mph rear end wreck to give me a severe concussion.

I've been vocal about some of the design ideas on here. Some of them are pretty off the wall or poorly thought out. And every time, I say that I wont buy the kit if they are implemented. Odds are, I'm talking out of my anus, and I'd still buy the car. But if the 818 requires a helmet to drive, I can tell you with 100% certainty that I will not buy one. Ever.

[Gollum]

The GTM is well designed in that regard. It has enough of a cage to be able to take to the track without concern, but keeps the tubular structure far enough away from your head to not be a concern.

Remember, this isn't a unibody that we're stuffing a cage into, it's a tubular chassis from the get go. Even the cage on a seven looks like an afterthought to me. Even the atom can be driven with no concern of needing a helmet.

Personally though, I'll probably have a harness instead of a conventional seat belt, even if FFR designs it to use the subaru belts.

Regarding what this thread has mostly been about though, I don't think FFR will really have a direct competition. I think those that choose to build them for the purpose of selling with have their fair share of competition, but that's because they've now opened themselves up to comparison against production cars in a much higher price range than those of us looking at the DIY price. When you build it yourself for 15k or slightly more you're not counting the labor you're putting in, which even at $10 an hour adds up. But depending on how the body really shapes up, and how much of a street car this can really turn out to be, there might not be anything close to similar on the market.

There's a whole market of kit cars like the seven, and the atom is one of them. From what I've seen (and I could be wrong), FFR wants to go a very different direction than these hardcore kits that are 100% about lap times, with little to no regard to daily livability. It seems like FFR wants to do something like they did with the '33 rod, which is breaking boundaries of what people expect. The '33 handles ways better than anyone building a hot rod could ever expect from a hot rod. And I think the 818 will be way more comfortable and driveable than anyone can expect from a 1800lb 15k kit car. FFR seems eager to "once and for all shed the kit car notion" which has always been about how kit cars are usually so shabby, hobbled together, rattle cans of cars. FFR has always pushed to change that reputation and seems to heavily endorse the headlines we've seen from the big mags like "this ain't no kit car" when talking about their products.

As much as I respect how hard of a challenge this project is to design, I think we're all in for a surprise when the details start trickling out for real.

[wjfawb0]

I'd consider an inertial reel belt if stock seats or less aggressive seats are used. With race seats they probably wouldn't be effective and I'd need a 4 or 5 point harness. I'll definitely think about it, but with or without harnesses I see it as a whole lot less risk than riding around on a motorcycle. Probably the most dangerous car I ever owned was a 94 miata with a harddog hardcore four point roll bar. The bar even with SFI padding was right behind my head, and I seriously watched the rear view mirror like a hawk at every stoplight/sign. The stock seats in that car came up to back of my neck.