Newbie questions: Just how hard is it to build, anyway?

[landerso]

I have been following the 818 saga since they first announced that they were looking into it, and am impressed with what I've seen. I sat in the red car at Carlisle last May and was really wowwed. I have done a good bit of wrenching in the past (2 MG Midgets and a Beck Speedster) but wonder if I have the skills to build an 818. I have a typical suburban 2-car garage that barely holds to cars and a lawnmower, and my tools are somewhat limited. My budget, should I decide to sell the Speedster, would be in the range of $25-30k. What I do not have is a lot of skill and experience with fabrication. My questions to the 818 Brain Trust are:

What is the skill level required to properly build an 818?
How much fabrication is required or is it pretty much bolt-together as long as you don't deviate from a standard build (if there is such a thing)?
Can one be built in a small garage?
How long should I allocate, assuming I can put in some time every weekend?
Is it possible to obtain the necessary donor parts without disassembling a donor? My HOA is pretty tight-assed sometimes.
Is my budget reasonable to support a good end product?

Thanks in advance. I'm trying to figure out if this is a realistic thing for me or not.

[Buzz Skyline]

I think I have about the same background as you. I'm about halfway done after 6 months of putting in 8-12 hours a week with essentially no help from anyone else. I've often come upon things that I thought would exceed my skill, but it's always worked out - even the very intimidating prospect of doing my own wiring harness (but it's one area where I strongly recommend buying a completed harness rather than modding a donor). I've learned a lot, and managed to make it through every step so far.

As long as you read other people's suggestions and experiences at each step, things seem to work out pretty well. But you need to know that the manual is not at all complete, it overlooks many details, and in some places is wrong IMHO (Wayne Presley's door mounting tips http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?15697-VCP-Door-mounting-Tricks&highlight=wayne+doors are very different from the manual and much better, for example).

I use a drill press from time to time, but everything else has gone together well with wrenches and electric hand tools. And I think I could get by without the drill press anyway.

My HOA is nuts, and my garage is tiny, so I have to roll the thing out to work on it and roll it back in again every time. I had a heavy duty dolly to begin with, but now I start it up to drive it in and out.

I also now do most of my body work under a tent in my backyard, which involves driving it over for a few hours before putting in back in the garage for the night.

I used a donor, but I think your budget gives you enough to play with to go with a pallet of parts from one of the vendors you can find on this forum.

Bottom line: I think I'm in a very similar situation to you, and I have no regrets. I just wish we had more nice weather in Maryland so things would go a little bit faster.

[Mechie3]

1: If you can wrench, you can do this. There's no fab required (though it often helps).
2: See #1. Trimming and minor mods likely required. you dont need to know how to weld or machine parts.
3:Tamra and XXguitarist (IIRC) are building one in a 1 car super tiny garage. Not how I'd do it, but it can be done.
4: It's much faster now that FFR has fixed some issues. I'd still budget at least a year or two.
5: Yes. Some companies (VCP) offer donor kits.
6: Yes. I'm right around $18k now. Still need tires and need to figure out body finishing (ie: paint, no paint, vinyl, etc).

[Pearldrummer7]

What is the skill level required to properly build an 818?
How much fabrication is required or is it pretty much bolt-together as long as you don't deviate from a standard build (if there is such a thing)?
Can one be built in a small garage?
How long should I allocate, assuming I can put in some time every weekend?
Is it possible to obtain the necessary donor parts without disassembling a donor? My HOA is pretty tight-assed sometimes.
Is my budget reasonable to support a good end product?

Thanks in advance. I'm trying to figure out if this is a realistic thing for me or not.


I'm in my early 20's and while I've worked on cars a bunch, I've never done anything nearly this complicated. So far I think it's going together well, though I do make a few more mistakes and probably take longer to understand things than most of the other people on the forum.
You don't -have- to fabricate anything yourself. Everyone once in a while, trimming up a part is handy, but with the vendors (such as Mechie3, Wayne, and many more) there are so many parts available that you can get by without any fabrication yourself.
I think yes- a small two car garage would be pretty packed but you'd be able to pull it off.
Tough question to answer. A very large part of my time has been taking apart the donor car, de rusting parts/junkyarding for replacement parts/trying parts only to have them be less-than-satisfactory. I think with help from the forum and FFR themselves, you can do this if you have the initiative regardless of experience/skills.
Yes, and I regret getting a donor car at this point. It was a tremendous amount of work and I took far less parts off of it than I anticipated.
I think your budget is great for it. I plan to spend ~$25k by the end (two sets of wheels/tires, perhaps paint or vinyl, modifications in the name of speed, etc.).



I'm far from an expert on this stuff, but I think you can do it. If you're located nearby and want to see my kit and get a feel for it in person, you're welcome to stop by (central NY). Best of luck if you decide to join us in building one :)

[billjr212]

Agree with all of the above for the most part and both Buzz and Mechie (edit: you too, Drummer! I was re-reading my post still when you responded) and many others have made great contributions to this forum when you find yourself stuck. If you have experience working on cars, you can certainly do this. Yes, the manual has some gaps, but this is a car, not a 1/18 scale model. The manual is excellent in my opinion (I built the roadster previously and that manual was about half the size at the time with 1/3 the number of pictures, and still sufficient as far as I was concerned). The only hand tool you might not have (other than an oddly sized socket here or there) are a good set of tin snips because lots of aluminum panels need a little nip and tuck here and there (much better than them being too small). I've also found my little harbor freight brake (I think it's about 18" wide) useful a few times, and the tightest 90 degree drill you can find, plus some stubby bits will save you some heartache. Get yourself the $10 electronic copy of the build manual to plan (there is also a list of tools needed in there).

Your budget is very realistic as long as you aren't planning a show quality paint job done by someone who isn't you.

If you work every weekend and do a good job planning/ordering parts during the week, you can easily finish in 8-10 months. I'm at 5 months (not including 3 months slowly stripping the donor over the summer) and I should be putting body panels on within a couple weeks. I usually get a couple good ~2 hour stretches working on it Saturday/Sunday but my weekday work is usually limited to a half hour here and there when my kids are sleeping.

Good luck and welcome to the forum.

[landerso]

Thanks for the welcome, guys. Pearldrummer7, I'd love to stop by but I am waaay down south in Charleston, SC, so it's a bit far. This is actually a great time of year for working in the garage. You can't stand to be in there very long from late June through September.

1-2 years, huh? Not sure I'm that patient. Is that including donor tear-down?

[Mechie3]

The 2 years just assumes that something comes up and you can't work on it every weekend. I got a lot done in about 6 months, then had a baby come early, then focused on designing parts to change things as I went instead of going back and redoing it.

[STiPWRD]

The time estimate sort of depends on how much OCD you have. For instance, I've spent a lot of time refurbishing used parts, painting, replacing bearings, completely building a new motor, rebuilding the trans, dieting the stock wire harness and so on. I've been very methodical along the way because I want to have a quality, reliable finished product in the end. Surfing the forum has also been extremely useful. I got my 818 about 10 and a half months ago and am probably at least 2 months from firing the engine and go karting. I've seen some people on this forum get to go-kart stage in only a few weeks. So far, I've realized to just enjoy the ride and work at my own pace. No regrets here!

[Buzz Skyline]

The time to completion is hard to define. I expect to have my car registered and on the road within a year of starting the kit. I was actually on track to do it even quicker, but life sometimes gets in the way.

Like so many other builders of FFR and other kits, however, I don't think the car will be *done* for quite some time after that. I have lots of plans for things to mod and upgrade - including a hard top as soon as they are available. My goal is to do the basic build first so I can have some fun driving as I upgrade.

Of course, even when I buy a production car, it's never really done. There's always some fun mod to do.

BTW, it took me about a month to take apart my donor, spending a few hours on the weekends and some time in the evenings. I kept it under a cover and up on jack stands so the HOA wouldn't get wise, then chopped up what I couldn't sell with a sawzall over the last weekend and hauled the steel to a scrap yard.

[wleehendrick]

If you have the motivation, you can do it. I was in a similar position, perhaps with even less experience and tools than you, when I committed to building an 818. Although I have engineering degrees, they're in disciplines that don't help in car building. But the mind-set helps, and I have plenty plenty of mechanical engineering co-workers and access to 3D printers and a small machine shop. That's not critical to success, though.

What is the skill level required to properly build an 818?

For the most part, basic auto mechanic and bodyworking/detailing skills; it's not rocket science.

I would not have been able to get as far as I did with just the assembly manual in isolation. However, this forum is immensely helpful, and you can find a video on YouTube for just about anything car related to help with donor disassembly/preparation/maintenance.

How much fabrication is required or is it pretty much bolt-together as long as you don't deviate from a standard build (if there is such a thing)?

If you go by the book, it's pretty much bolt/rivet together. But you have to drill most of the holes. There are a lot of holes. Did I mention the holes? And you have to trim some aluminum and fiberglass. But no fabrication is required. You can do a lot of customization by buying parts from other builders/vendors like Wayne, Craig, Mike, etc... who have run into an issue or made an improvement and now offer a solution anyone can take advantage of. Machined aluminum parts are nice and pretty, but not cheap, though.

Probably the only area that requires fabrication is seat and harness mounting. The S kit provides a solution to using OEM seats and belts, but few are happy with the seats, and many S builders want a harness. In order to mount aftermarket buckets, you'll need to figure mounting points out, and the S does not support a harness (the bolt-on harness bar is too high to be safe for most). I really would like to see FFR update the S design to be compatible with standard sidemount seat brackets and properly located harness mounts.

I also had only basic hand tools to start with, so you'll want to budget for some additional tools. At a minimum, here are some specifics you'll want that you may not have: wrenches and sockets in larger sizes, tin snips, clecko pins/pliers, hand riveter, a good rotary tool is handy for all sorts of things (drilling in tight spaces, mild cutting and grinding, etc...). My mediocre cordless drill was not up to the task, but a $30 Ryobi corded drill is a champ drilling into metal.

Can one be built in a small garage?

Yes, although you'll want your donor torn down prior to taking delivery and will need additional storage space if you only have one bay available.

How long should I allocate, assuming I can put in some time every weekend?

If you can put in some time each week, I would say six months to a year. I worked on mine sporadically for a year while it was in a friend's garage, due to logistical issues. Once I get it to the rolling stage, with the motor in, I brought it home (a little over a month ago) and the build pace has picked up considerably.

Is it possible to obtain the necessary donor parts without disassembling a donor? My HOA is pretty tight-assed sometimes.

Yes. AJW pulled the plug on offering donors, but Wayne is selling them. I got my donor from another builder who delayed his 818 in favor of another project; those pop up from time to time and an abandoned build can be another good way to get donor parts. A prepared donor palate is more expensive since you're paying from someone else's labor to tear it down and you can't recoup by selling off parts.

Is my budget reasonable to support a good end product?

Absolutely! Buying a donor palette means you'll probably have to keep a closer eye on expenses, but $25-30k still give you plenty for upgrades. With a little touch-up from the gel-coat repair kit, a $50 harbor freight dual action polisher and Fiberglass polish and wax, the panels are presentable. For a show-car finish, however, you'll have to spend more time and money.

I hope this helps,

Lee

[svanlare]

I think we will all do our bests to talk you into the project :)

1. I'm a good example of having the desire to wrench but not actually having the skills. The Kit is going together well and I'm taking my time to figure out what I need to learn with each step of the process. So far so good.
2. I've not had to fab anything - but I have purchased a fair bit from the forum. I'm planning on having a friend come over and weld some rails for the seats shortly but I could probably get away with bolting something in place.
3. I have a small 2 car garage, and it is mostly full from the remodel we did a while ago. I had success making room for the two wire racks (donor parts and kit parts) and I have the car on a dolly that I can roll out when I need more room. It has been tight, and I would have liked to haul more of the leftover remodel junk to the dump, but I've made it work.
4. I travel a lot for work (killing a lot of evenings) and get probably 2 weekends a month to work on the car. I got my kit at the end of March last year and had budgeted 2 years for the project and feel like I'm pretty much on schedule as I'm about to start on the wiring and try to start it up after that.
5. I went the donor route not because for HOA but since there is NO WAY I was getting approval for this project at home if I was parking a car out front and pulling parts.
6. I stopped tracking costs a while ago, but an important thing I missed was the cost of tools. Harbor Freight has made a fair bit off me on this project.

[GUNS]

You're probably more skilled than I am and I haven't had many major issues building this thing.

Since everyone else answered your individual questions about the same that I would I'll just echo everyone else. Totally doable for the average Joe, just be patient. It's taking me about 2 yrs including the donor teardown, but I've also had many months where I haven't been able to touch it.

I'm in Columbia, SC if you ever want to check it out. Good luck, I look forward to following your build thread!

[landerso]

Thanks for the invite, Guns. I may just take you up on it. I've had my Speedster for 8 years now and can testify that these cars are never "done". Mine was built at the Carlisle Import and Kit Nationals in '06 as a promotional build and I got a considerable discount. However, the term "build" needs some explanation as it is nowhere near the same as building an 818. Beck cars are almost completely factory built (can be turn-key if you want) on a tube frame with all of the paint, wiring, interior, top, etc. done. In my car's case we added the drivetrain, front wheel assemblies (spindles out) and some of the light fixtures. It went from three pallets of stuff to a drivable, albeit not truly complete, car in 16 hours of work by a team that had a fair amount of skill. Over the years I have made constant improvements. I have put close to 50k miles on this one and think I am ready for a new challenge, although I'd hate to sell it. Ah well, sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do.

By the way, Guns, you should come down to Charleston for our Cars and Coffee when you get yours done (if not before). I am the unofficial photographer and post the pics on our "Charleston Cars and Coffee" in facebook. Check it out when you have a chance.

[AZPete]

With your Speedster experience you'll build a solid 818. I agree with all the guys above and also have a small space, nasty HOA, no welder, no lift but this is my second Factory Five build. I'm having a blast!

[Silvertop]

Consider signing up for the 3-day 818 build school at Mott Community College in Howell Michigan on March 6 -8. There are still vacancies in the class. Over the course of the three days, the class members will completely assemble an 818. Should be a lot of fun (I'm looking forward to it myself), and the experience should definitely tell you whether or not you can do it. Cost $799, but I think it's money well spent. A pretty good investment to determine whether you want to spend another $15K-25K of your hard-earned money. If you can't make the March class, there is another one some time in April. There is registration info elsewhere on the forum. You should be able to find the thread under the General 818 Discussion heading.

[Harley818]

Hi Landerso.

I was into cars when I was younger, but then other priorities took over and I am just getting back to it after about 30 years of just brakes, tuneups and the occasional wrenching session.
I am enjoying getting back into it.

You can do this with the basic wrenching skills. The most important part..... trust yourself and have confidence you can do it. You would be surprized at how you can figure out the difficult parts and sort out issues you thought were not possible. Also, now, with this forum, we are all here to help each other out.

I too have a small space. Its a two car garage, but half it taken up by excersize stuff and storage. Basically i have room for the kit car and a couple workbenches.
I started by bringing home the donor last January, and stripped it down in 3 - 4 weeks working a few nights and a couple weekends. Then got rid of the body and started cleaning everything up. By the time the kit came in June, I had most of the stuff cleaned up by working 2 - 3 evenings a week and 3 - 4 hours on the weekends.
Dont forget to factor the time you will spend on the forum reading up on the best way to do something, or posting your own accomplishments.
Now 8 months later, i just started the car for the first time a 4 weeks ago, and I am ready to start the body.
Wiring harness dieting and re-arrangement was the most time consuming. Its running, but I have some parts that still need to be checked out.
I just do a bit at a time and work my way through the various bits. its really rewarding to run your own brake lines, figuring out how to run them, make them look neat, etc.
Your budget is good, although watch out for the extras that you will find along the way. They all add up.
Hope to see your thread on here.....

[K3LAG]

$25K-$30K will be a tight budget if you use a donor pallet, but it is doable.

By the time you buy the kit, the donor pallet and shipping on the donor pallet you will be approaching $20K and you won't have a bunch of parts from you donor to sell off to make some of that money back. If you start buying a bunch of extras like after market seats, an AWIC, the various cool small parts available here on the forum, and want a really nice paint job you could easily pass that budget. I know, because I did. :cool:

We sat down and ran all the numbers on our car a couple of weeks ago. I knew I was over my budget, but pretty surprised by how much.

You will always find those parts that only cost $100-$200 that you think 'that's just a little bit, I can do that too' but they will add up. Under $30K is possible, but you will have to be disciplined on your budget.

Larry

[Pearldrummer7]

$25K-$30K will be a tight budget if you use a donor pallet, but it is doable.

By the time you buy the kit, the donor pallet and shipping on the donor pallet you will be approaching $20K and you won't have a bunch of parts from you donor to sell off to make some of that money back. If you start buying a bunch of extras like after market seats, an AWIC, the various cool small parts available here on the forum, and want a really nice paint job you could easily pass that budget. I know, because I did. :cool:

We sat down and ran all the numbers on our car a couple of weeks ago. I knew I was over my budget, but pretty surprised by how much.

You will always find those parts that only cost $100-$200 that you think 'that's just a little bit, I can do that too' but they will add up. Under $30K is possible, but you will have to be disciplined on your budget.

Larry

Buying a full donor car and parting it out is a lot more work, but you can save a bunch of money on the build by doing it.


Also, the cost definitely depends on what you're doing with the car. If you want a nice Sunday cruiser you can probably skimp on some costs compared to a national championship winning autoxer or something.

[Buzz Skyline]

Buying a full donor car and parting it out is a lot more work, but you can save a bunch of money on the build by doing it.

Plus I think it helps a lot with putting the 818 together. There are several things that I wouldn't have known how to put together properly if I hadn't ripped them off the donor (and thoroughly marked and photographed them as I was doing it) in the first place, especially stuff like coolant lines, vacuum hoses, and electrical connectors.

Most of all, I have to second the build school suggestion. I went to a Roadster build school with my son 10 years ago. We had lots of fun, and even though I never built a Roadster, it gave me the confidence to tackle the 818 when it came along.

[tmoretta]

My 818 is probably 2/3 complete. I have been having lots of fun in my build. I am an experienced old school mechanic/car guy. If I were to commence this project anew, I might want to wait until Factory Five has re-written/corrected the very sub standard build manual. There are just too many times when the builder has to wing it and depend on his or her own experience or the great resource and support found in these forums. The manual is full of omissions and mistakes that can be very frustrating to deal with.

[Goldwing]

As far as the donor car disassembly, there is a big difference between a northern owned car and a southern owned car. The former is for professionals, the latter is much more within the weekend mechanic's skillset.

Otherwise, you'll find a lot of guys here with a similar background. I'm doing the small 2-car garage build. I am using all the space. It definitely sounds like you could do this. Where you run into something that stumps you, this forum and some initiative are pretty much all you need to push on.

[the_tool_man]

I'm on the fence, as well. I have basic mechanic skills. But I can't weld or do much machining. For me, the biggest hurdle is confidence. I'm currently parting out a Sunbeam Tiger clone that I've had for over 20 years and never finished. I finally had to acknowledge that it's not in my wheelhouse to deal with a myriad of things to fabricate, repair, replace, etc. I can do all these things. But a restoration doesn't come with instructions. So for me, a perfectionist, chasing the seemingly infinite number of details, and figuring out the "best" way to repair and upgrade 50 year old car parts has become too difficult to contemplate.

By contrast, doing an 818 build seems far more straightforward, as there is a finite parts list, and an instruction manual that presumably is written in a logical order. I think for me, it all comes down to having a plan and sticking to it, rather than chasing every upgrade and getting bogged down. I'd very much like to meet some local folks who've done or are doing a build. I'm in upstate SC, and hope to see one at a CNC in Greenville this spring.

[wleehendrick]

I'm on the fence, as well. I have basic mechanic skills. But I can't weld or do much machining. For me, the biggest hurdle is confidence.

Welcome... you can do it! One thing I've found is that it's actually helpful to jump around. If you get stuck on something, while researching or soliciting help, tackle something easy; it'll rebuild your confidence and boost your motivation. When you go back to what was challenging you, it doesn't seem so bad.


By contrast, doing an 818 build seems far more straightforward, as there is a finite parts list, and an instruction manual that presumably is written in a logical order. I think for me, it all comes down to having a plan and sticking to it, rather than chasing every upgrade and getting bogged down.

If you suffer from upgraditis, plan or no plan, the 818 can still bog you down and/or break your budget. I know, it happened to me... there's so much aftermarket support for the Subaru, and you see cool parts in other builds and want it yourself. Luckily, you don't have to figure it out in a vacuum; Wayne, Craig and others are good about explaining how to install all the nice parts they sell. And, although the manual does has some issues, the forum here will help you through the omissions.