Cost of building with a 427 motor

[beetlespin]

Still in the research phase here.....

What did you car end up costing to build?

Really looking for input from those who have done the full kit, a couple of options, and a 427 motor.

I understand there are many variables so I am hoping to get a couple of responses.

When I see cars available once in a while for $35,000 I do not understand how they can sell at that price.

[2FAST4U]

Which 427? Windsor or FE?

The FE is more expensive and heavier but more period correct. I had a 429 based engine in mine with 503 cubic inches. It really filled the engine compartment.

I had $54K in mine. I will exceed that with this build.

[Avalanche325]

As 2FAST4U stated, there are 2 very different 427s. One is the old school FE big block. The other is based off of a 351 aftermarket block and stroked to 427.

One thing is that these cars vary widely in what they are equipped with and the quality of the build. A MK I with a stock 5.0 and rear drums will be considerably cheaper than a MKIV with a Roush 427, IRS, and Wilwoods. You can have a junkyard engine, or this $23k monster (http://www.roushperformance.com/engines/427-ir.html.). You can have a $5k paint job or a $12K paint job. Add in billet this, that , and the other shiny thing, and the price goes up.

It is often cheaper to buy one than build one. You have to WANT to do the build. You may be able to do it cheaper if you have access to a good donor car. Often, these are sold at a loss or at break even NOT counting any labor. This happens all the time in the Cobra, custom, and hot rod world. "$100,000 in receipts.....asking price $60,000."

I have $45k in mine. That is with me building my own engine, which really doesn't save much. I am also doing my own body and paint. That one saves $4k - 5k. I do have Wilwood brakes, Moser rear, TKO-600, and a 347 that is putting out about 500FHP. That all adds up fast.

You can build one for $35k. Add a 427 (either kind) and you are going to easily push $45k.

[thumper24]

Wow, interesting points Avalanche. I too am in the research/planning phase and have been pondering the same things as beetlespin. I'm thinking you hit the nail on the head when you said "you have to WANT to do the build." Sure, if I ever sell mine, it would be nice to get my money back or more, but that is really secondary to me. In my case, I WANT to do the build for the success and accomplishment of building my very own racecar the way I want it... of walking away at the end of the day when I step out of it after a drive and saying "holy crap, I built that thing!"

Everyone wants what they want when they build their own car... seems to me that you have to prepare yourself for what you may spend and decide whether you're content with that or not when it comes time to sell and potentially take a loss. Hell, having a project that keeps me busy and out of my wife's hair for 1 - 2yrs is enough to convince me of taking a $10K loss. I'd probably spend that or more on other miscellaneous projects over a 1 - 2yr span.

$40K - $45K is how my build plan math is adding up.

[beetlespin]

I would use a 351 stroked to a 427. I do WANT to do the build, just trying to figure out if I can AFFORD to do the build. The most I want to spend is $40,000 so I think it is doable just want to confirm that. Guess what I am worried about is the extra expenses after you purchase the kit, motor, trans and rear end.

Good information here everyone. Thanks for your responses.

[edwardb]

I don't claim to be an expert, since I haven't personally built a 427 engine. But from what I've read getting 427 cubes out of a 351 block means either a BOSS or DART block. A regular stock block can only be taken safely to 408. Just make sure to include that premium in your budget. Good upgade BTW. I went with a DART 302 based block in my Mk4 build. I'm very impressed with it.

I think it's possible to build with the budget number you've suggested. Two comments: First, make a build plan and stick to it it. Cover all the major systems like suspension, brakes, trans, steering, wheels, tires, etc., make your budget accordingly, and stick to it. Scope creep will kill the budget. Second, the single biggest surprise for me was paint. Do your homework on this one. The costs go all the way from materials only for garage paint jobs to $6,000 - $8,000 for most shops, and can go >$10K for a high end job. Some guys drive them in gel coat for awhile to shake it down plus let the budget catch up for the paint job. Paint was the biggest single surprise for my first build. The second time I wasn't surprised, but still hurt to write the check. :(

[edwardb]

One more point regarding "losing money." Unless you're an incredibly good shopper (and lucky) you are very unlikely to get back out of these what you put in. And that doesn't include labor. If you're buying stuff at full retail (forum vendors, Summit, etc.), forget it. That's not a bad thing. It's just what it is. And as has been pointed out, not unique to these builds. It's just what the car hobby does. Actually, I've seen these cars command a little higher percent of return, especially if well built, neat, well thought out, well maintained, etc. But still difficult if not impossible to recoup your full investment. Go into it expecting it. Also realize some choices you make affect the resale value. That cool color combo you've never seen before (!!) may not appeal to the masses like a more traditional blue or red. Same for engines. I see guys all the time saying "I'm building it to keep not to sell" and that's fine. But if resale is a concern, be smart about it.

[clancypm]

Ok maybe I'm out of my mind, but my plan is to build one for $20,000.00 or less. I bought a 96 mustang cobra for $2700.00 with 67,000 miles on it that had been totaled because it had been rolled. Had to replace the windshield ,its a convertible. All the glass was broken and the top, two fenders a little messed up.but otherwise it was perfect. Drove it all summer and it is a sweet ride. Anyways I plan on using everything I can from the mustang, not redoing the motor or anything like that, and figure I'll spend about 15000.00-17,000.00 on the kit with the options I want. Do my own paint and body work (that could be interesting), and hope I get a lot of good help on this forum. So am I crazy?

[bbksv]

I am building a hotrod and my original budget was 30k (what I told my wife)...I am at $43 now and still have to paint it. That is with a 302 build. My point is that things REALLY add up...so I would have to say I highly doubt you can do a roadster for 20k. Just in materials for the body work I am over 1k. If anyone wants to PM me I can give quite a list of things I didn't anticipate.

[edwardb]

Ok maybe I'm out of my mind, but my plan is to build one for $20,000.00 or less. I bought a 96 mustang cobra for $2700.00 with 67,000 miles on it that had been totaled because it had been rolled. Had to replace the windshield ,its a convertible. All the glass was broken and the top, two fenders a little messed up.but otherwise it was perfect. Drove it all summer and it is a sweet ride. Anyways I plan on using everything I can from the mustang, not redoing the motor or anything like that, and figure I'll spend about 15000.00-17,000.00 on the kit with the options I want. Do my own paint and body work (that could be interesting), and hope I get a lot of good help on this forum. So am I crazy?

You're describing a donor build, and while it won't be easy, it's probably possible in the range you describe. But it will take real discipline and harvesting as many parts as you can. If you keep every receipt and add up all the costs though, don't be surprised if you end up over.

Also you may want to stay away from the forums and car shows. Because every visit will cost you money for those sudden "must haves." Ask me how I know. :p

This thread -- and frankly I think the majority of builds any more -- are not about donor builds.

[Jeff Kleiner]

You aren't crazy Clancy but you have to be realistic. $15-17k for the kit + options in addition to what you have in your donor has you knocking on the door to 20 grand. Add in transportation costs to either have it delivered or pick it up yourself. Even doing your own paint you'll have $1,000 minimum in materials. Miscellaneous fluids, sealers, adhesives, etc. add up quickly and we haven't touched on replacement of donor wear items such as brakes, clutch and so forth yet. I'm not trying to be discouraging, just realistic. FWIW, I do believe that the most cost effective way to do a new build is via a mod-motor donor so you are on the right path. Just be sure to consider ALL the costs, not just the majors. Those nickels and dimes have a way of sneaking up and becoming "real money"!

Good luck!

Jeff

[thumper24]

Also you may want to stay away from the forums and car shows. Because every visit will cost you money for those sudden "must haves." Ask me how I know. :p


Too funny... but true! When I started planning, I was thinking "wow, the cost shouldn't be too bad." But, after looking at build threads and many of the part suppliers, I suddenly found the cost skyrocketing. I've had to scale myself back and say "well, that mod would be really nice, but do I REALLY need it?" Staying in budget is going to take some serious discipline. To the point of this thread, deciding on the engine is by far the biggest point of contention for me. Do I really need a 427 to make this car fun to drive or do I just WANT it?

To me, planning this is almost worse than building a house!

[RobW]

Clancy, I am still working on my build list. I am not going to build a Mach 5, but rather a daily driver I can get a little crazy with. Going with a partial donor and rebuild a 302. Just like the look of the engine. My ceiling before paint/wheels/tires will be $25K. Will I keep in under $25K, probably not. Base kit, donor or donor pallet (lots of garage time cleaning and rehabbing parts), a few mods. Can't do it all at once so my thought is to source the 302 and rebuild it. Then source the donor, strip what I need (more garage time rehabbing parts) and then order the kit. I'm sure I will find and squeeze in more $$ to add a few mods. My wife is still not sold on this and I cannot afford to drop $25K on the kit all at once so I have to piece meal it and allow the budget to catch up each step of the way.

I have been lurking on these forums for a year now and I have to agree that the vast majority are not donor builds. Still, there are some outstanding and gorgeous builds that make you want to drool. Two that come to mind are Edward's and Carl's Not to take anything away from other builds. Thiers are not budget builds and what they have done is really amazing. I am really excited to get started.

Good luck with your build.

Rob

[clancypm]

thanks Jeff appreciate your input and I have thought about the little odds and ends and not too worried if I go over a little but have set my goal at the $20,000.00 mark and think I can come in at that, hope so anyway. I do have a knack of squeezing every penny from a dollar. I'm retiring this coming year and this is my plan for the first year of retirement. The Cobra has been my dream car since I first read about it in car magazines in the mid 60's. My first car was a 1970 Boss 302 bought new, and have owned high performance cars my whole life, but this has always been my dream car.

[clancypm]

I'm Rooting for you Rob. Sounds like we are thinking close to the same. Hopefully our builds will come out the way we are hoping.

[RobW]

Clancy, Congrats on your upcoming retirement and on a plan to keep busy. I have 15 years to go unless I win the lottery. My wife thinks my desire to build a Roadster is a mid life crisis. If it were, I'd just buy one and drive. This is much more. I grew up in CA and was exposed to a variety of muscle cars and hot rods. My favorites were Challengers, Mach 1s, and Road Runners. Still, nothing tugs at my heart strings like an AC cobra. My wife would rather we just buy a BMW. I have several big ticket items on my honey do list to get through before I can really start on the Roadster. Finish the Basement; Redo the guest bedroom closets, Paint, and replace the kitchen counter tops. I hope to be done with all of this by the end of summer and then I can start on my project.

Again, good luck your retirement and Cobra project. You will start long before I do. I look forward to seeing your progress.

Rob

[Avalanche325]

Do I really need a 427 to make this car fun to drive or do I just WANT it?
What you need for this car to be fun is anything over 300 hp. You may find that going over 400 makes the car more scary than fun. I have seen several Cobras that only get taken out to a show now and then because the owners are scared of them. How tragic.
I think 40k and a 427 is stretching a bit.

[BobsMK4]

I was also going to order a 427 with over 400 hp, but my common sense stepped in and stopped me. I guess I got all up in the idea of having a 427 Cobra. Reality set in and I decided to order a small block 302 with 350 hp. In a 2200 lb. car, it should go just fine. For me, I feel that I have a reasonable chance of driving my car safely and enjoying it more. I'm not suggesting that anyone should change their mind regarding how they build their roadster. This is strictly my own opinion.

[Avalanche325]

Here is some fun that makes the 427 number a bit strange:
What is the displacement of an 427 FE? 425 cu in.
What engine did the majority of 427 Cobras have? 428. Carroll Shelby's response to that, is that "427 Cobra" means the body style, not the engine. Well, he never stretched the truth, right? That will be my excuse for my badges and having a 347.

I know that this displacement is being done to hit that "magic" number (even though it is technically the wrong number), and it is certainly a good marketing ploy. If your going to the expense of a DART block (around $3000), why not go big? That block can handle 468, yikes! And yes, the 427 number is cool.

Clancy,
You can get lots of help here. That is one thing great about building these. From guys that are wishing (spent a lot of years there), building their 1st (me), multiple builds (2FAST4U), and even professional builders (Jeff Kleiner / Gordon Levy). You mentioned doing your own body / paint. You can save money here, but get the large drum of elbow grease out. It is labor intensive. Hence, the savings, but still not cheap. A compressor fully set up and paint gun can knock you back $2000. I was sanding just today, and will be tomorrow, and the next day.....turning $200 worth of slick sand to dust. This, and the other forum, gave me the confidence (or stupidity depending on how it comes out) to do it. Oh yeah, professional painters on here (Jeff again, DaBat, SRP) will give you advice too. Really.....how cool is that? I hope 20k is more of a goal than a hard number. We don't want to see someone get in trouble.

[edwardb]

If your going to the expense of a DART block (around $3000)...

There are three different versions of the 302/351 DART cast iron blocks. SHP, Sportsman, and Iron Eagle. I suspect most, including me, are using the SHP. Bare, they're in the $1600 - $1800 range. For my engine builder, was around $1500 upcharge from a stock block. He said they're conservatively rated by DART, probably to keep their place in line with the higher end blocks. He said the SHP line would handle up to 1000 hp. Probably enough... So yea, DART's add cost, but doesn't have to be three grand. Although it's not unusual once you go down that path that other higher end options are chosen, like forged internals, billet cam, etc. Ask me how I know. Then there's the aluminum version. Now that's some serious coin.

[2FAST4U]

If I were to do another 427 Roadster I would go with a 427 FE displacing 498 cubic inches. Easily makes 750 horsepower on pump gas and the sound is amazing

[Dave Howard]

You aren't crazy Clancy but you have to be realistic. $15-17k for the kit + options in addition to what you have in your donor has you knocking on the door to 20 grand. Add in transportation costs to either have it delivered or pick it up yourself. Even doing your own paint you'll have $1,000 minimum in materials. Miscellaneous fluids, sealers, adhesives, etc. add up quickly and we haven't touched on replacement of donor wear items such as brakes, clutch and so forth yet. I'm not trying to be discouraging, just realistic. FWIW, I do believe that the most cost effective way to do a new build is via a mod-motor donor so you are on the right path. Just be sure to consider ALL the costs, not just the majors. Those nickels and dimes have a way of sneaking up and becoming "real money"!

Good luck!

Jeff

And you haven't yet factored the most important shop material....BEER.

[clancypm]

Avalanche, the 20,000 is my goal not a hard number, and it is great that everyone is so willing to help others. I do have a compressor and lines and so forth, and not to worried about the elbow grease. More worried about what it will look like. One of my main concerns is the wiring, never have done any wiring other than rewiring most of my house, but never in a car. Also I'm wondering why I can't use the mustang heater-air in the cobra. It looks to me that I could build out the area above the PS foot box and run vent ducts under the dash. It looks like a lot of space between the floor and the bottom of the dash. Also really wondering about instrument layout. I don't want an obstructed view of my tach and speedometer.

[clancypm]

Dave I consider the beer as a cost of living expense, not shop material.

[stevenburgess]

There is also a difference in what the real cost and the cost your wife thinks it is.

[clancypm]

so true steven

[Avalanche325]

One of my main concerns is the wiring,
That one scares a lot of people. The biggest thing to do there is keep in your head that you are hooking up one thing at a time.



Also I'm wondering why I can't use the mustang heater-air in the cobra. It looks to me that I could build out the area above the PS foot box and run vent ducts under the dash. It looks like a lot of space between the floor and the bottom of the dash.

There is not a lot of space anywhere. The FFR or Vintage air heaters are specifically built to be compact. I am not sure what the Mustang unit looks like. I am sure with some fabrication you could come up with something. But, keeping it looking decent will be the real test. I originally had the goal of keeping the heater core and blower out of the engine compartment. With that and trying to have defroster vents it was all too much. I ended up putting the blower in the engine bay, and throwing a couple of weekends of custom heater plenum work in the trash. And I even don't have a stereo taking up any space.

Dash layout. The standard one is fine, It puts the tach and speedo right in front of you. It is no more hidden by the Cobra steering wheel than any other car. You can do the comp dash. The tach is still behind the wheel, speedo in the center. The idea is that you would rather have the oil press and water temp in front of you than a speedometer on a race track. I am not a fan of custom layouts, but the sky is the limit. You can order your kit with a blank dash panel if you are not using the street layout.

[bcovell]

I have a MKII with a number of upgrades along with a Ford 393 stroker. I have a spreadsheet where I recorded all costs. Over 45k so far

[BEAR-AvHistory]

I have a receipt for everything right down to Home Depot nuts in bolts. I put them in a draw on the workbench. I make sure that I never ever look at them again once they are in the draw.:D

[Gumball]

Something else that often gets overlooked - old-school costs money... and the more you want it to look like an original, the more you will spend. Original-style AC / Shelby reproduction parts aren't cheap and used original stuff is nearly made of unobtainium.

[Johnnymike]

First of all I do have a FF and have owned a Superformance 427 SC and purchased both as turn key cars.
The FF came with a complete build log and receipts. It was built by a qualified shop a year before I purchased it. Total cost was almost $80,000 with a 427FE. And a lot went in to the engine. The car is very well done but has a few small flaws, but I am pretty picky
and I have not had any work done on it since purchased 2 years ago. I purchased the car for $42,000 after some negotiation and a trip to inspect and drive the car.

My opinion is, for what it is worth, is that is is virtually impossible to estimate an accurate build cost due to all the reasons mentioned in the above threads.
The only way to have a hard number is to buy one built. Of coarse you wont have the building experience.
JMS

[6t8dart]

I might as well chime in too. My build was a donor build with a total painted budget of $19,000. I say was...I have used very little of the donor mustang. I have been upgrading, but I have been trying to stay somewhat on budget. I keep a spreadsheet with all expenses, and I have been selling unused and donor parts. Right now, I'm projecting a finished total of $24,000. But if I stuck to my original plan with no changes, I could have come in on budget. It's still too early to tell, but I think I can do it. It helps that I have a lot of material for the paint job from my last build. All I need is paint, primer, and filler.

[FMJ]

While I'd love to have a 427 for all the right reasons stated above, 350hp in a Roadster and you can make the back end catch the front end in a heartbeat. Plenty drivable and plenty fast.

As for the cost, I'm afraid to look!

-Fred

[Avalanche325]

Just in case you don't notice. This thread is a year old. All good info for the next guy though.

[skullandbones]

It's true that you can't really get 427 out of the Winsor but you can get so close that it isn't worth arguing. Have a look at the link. You wouldn't be able to tell the difference in cubes with this version, a 421. It maxes the bore and stroke to get that.

http://www.keithcraft.com/Item/shortblock_408_418_street_performance

Personally, I think if you get over 400 ci you are pretty much have what you need to build a high hp/torque monster.

WEK.

[smithbks]

I love reading these comments! I have a 427w with monster power because that's what I thought I needed :). Now I know much less would have been just fine - but hey, I'm not complaining.

The build is incredibly personal, and do what makes you happy. For me, I wanted it to be high quality so I just kept running into upgrades. The engine was easily the most expensive piece. End of the day I'm upper 40's to 50's, and I don't know where I could have saved any money. I think if you try to push the budget down too much you will not be happy with the finished product. I'd rather wait a little longer, or build a little longer, and make it meet my dream. But again, this is a personal choice. My advice - ask yourself what you want the end product to be and look like. Work backwards from there, not from what your budget is. If the two don't line up, wait or don't do it. You invest too much emotion and time to not build what you want. Good luck!