New Guy Build Questions...

[willtwallace]

Hello All,

Let me start by saying, owning a Cobra replica has been a dream since I was a young Soldier and first laid eyes on one. I’m now on my 25th year of service, preparing to retire, and getting prepared to start building my car. Over the years I have purchased many books, read many articles, watched every show that dealt in some way with Cobra kits cars, and watched in amazement as Mr. Pratt droped millions of dollars for one on Barrett Jackson. So now that all the kids are grown and no longer in the house it’s time to fill that hole in the nest.

My preliminary goals are to build it in stages since my budget is limited. Order complete kit first, drivetrain, and paint. I am 90% decided on the color; BMW Fire Orange (paint code: U94) that is on the Lime Rock edition M3, with flat black stripes, black roll bar, and side exhaust.

So, here is where I need input (reality check) from you guys (gender neutral term):

Pin drive or 5 lug? I am leaning toward pin drive. Pros and cons?

Motor….this is the hardest. Bottom line, I want a big block!

My first impulse is to drop in my favorite dream motor a ZZ572 crate motor. Yes, a Chevy motor. But, from what I have heard online this would pretty much lock me out of taking it to any car hangout, fear of being abused by the purist.

My second choice would be the Ford 460 big block.

Any and all comments and suggestion are welcomed.

William

For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.
– Apostle Paul – Philippians 1:21

[maczter]

William...

First off let me say welcome to the madness. Second, thanks for your service (USAF 83-99). I was set on building a Roadster but garage space limited me and I chose the 2 stage approach to the Hot Rod. You will get your answer on the pin/5 lug, but let me chime in on the motor. This is your car, build it the way you want!!!! A big block Chevy is cool as heck...I chose a small block Chevy for my rod instead of the Ford route...it's what I liked, and what I was comfortable working on. I have seen roadsters with both, and even a Dodge Viper motor. If it is your dream, make your dream a reality. A rat stuffed cobra!

[pcww]

welcome,
I will regurgitate what I have learned so far. This is coming from someone who is about one fourth of the way finished his MK IV kit.
1. First, you are on the right track with a complete kit. Most of those who have gone the donor route either regret it or have serious second thoughts.
2. Engine choice is purely vanity. This is a light car, 2250 or so lbs . so anything short of a slant six is more than enough to power it. Having said that I studied all of the forums for three months before choosing a Ford Racing 351 Windsor now 427 Cu in. Vanity so if anybody says does it have a 427 I can say yes. Seriously, I chose this because of the nationwide warranty. However, if you want to go with a vendor on this and the other site there is Levy , Forte, and the Engine Factory amongst others. I would skip the 302 based engines and go with a 351w based one. Just my two cents. The concept of the big block means way extra $$$$ , weight and size in the engine compartment. A lot of folks are using the new Ford Coyote engine which is a great choice but it does limit area in hood area and has some computer peculiarities but it also has the warranty.
3. I chose the Vintage wheels which are sort of pin drive. Pure pin drive is great idea if you are going 15" wheels. I chose not to go that route since I wanted a larger choice on the 17".
4. I recommend the Tremec transmissions especially the t 600.
Please bear in mind this is just my opinion from someone who is also learning as he goes. This forum will teach you almost everything you need. Keep searching however since most of these topics are covered ad nauseum.
Good luck.
Henry

[KolonelKraig]

I want to do the flat black stripes over a high gloss charcoal gray. Ya might want to check into the flat paint - it is a real bearcat to upkeep the paint with flat stripes. In order to a proper detail you have to tape off the stripes when you wax. Love the look but am not looking forward to the pain.

[pcww]

Forgot to point out the best build so far is the one by Edward B. I am sure there are others but for me his is the gold standard. Go post by post and if you follow what he does you can't go wrong. Ditto for Jeff Kleiner. Really good posts and good guy.

[willtwallace]

William...

First off let me say welcome to the madness. Second, thanks for your service (USAF 83-99). I was set on building a Roadster but garage space limited me and I chose the 2 stage approach to the Hot Rod. You will get your answer on the pin/5 lug, but let me chime in on the motor. This is your car, build it the way you want!!!! A big block Chevy is cool as heck...I chose a small block Chevy for my rod instead of the Ford route...it's what I liked, and what I was comfortable working on. I have seen roadsters with both, and even a Dodge Viper motor. If it is your dream, make your dream a reality. A rat stuffed cobra!

Thanks!


welcome,
I will regurgitate what I have learned so far. This is coming from someone who is about one fourth of the way finished his MK IV kit.
1. First, you are on the right track with a complete kit. Most of those who have gone the donor route either regret it or have serious second thoughts.
2. Engine choice is purely vanity. This is a light car, 2250 or so lbs . so anything short of a slant six is more than enough to power it. Having said that I studied all of the forums for three months before choosing a Ford Racing 351 Windsor now 427 Cu in. Vanity so if anybody says does it have a 427 I can say yes. Seriously, I chose this because of the nationwide warranty. However, if you want to go with a vendor on this and the other site there is Levy , Forte, and the Engine Factory amongst others. I would skip the 302 based engines and go with a 351w based one. Just my two cents. The concept of the big block means way extra $$$$ , weight and size in the engine compartment. A lot of folks are using the new Ford Coyote engine which is a great choice but it does limit area in hood area and has some computer peculiarities but it also has the warranty.
3. I chose the Vintage wheels which are sort of pin drive. Pure pin drive is great idea if you are going 15" wheels. I chose not to go that route since I wanted a larger choice on the 17".
4. I recommend the Tremec transmissions especially the t 600.
Please bear in mind this is just my opinion from someone who is also learning as he goes. This forum will teach you almost everything you need. Keep searching however since most of these topics are covered ad nauseum.
Good luck.
Henry

Good stuff, thanks


I want to do the flat black stripes over a high gloss charcoal gray. Ya might want to check into the flat paint - it is a real bearcat to upkeep the paint with flat stripes. In order to a proper detail you have to tape off the stripes when you wax. Love the look but am not looking forward to the pain.

mmmm, maybe a matte clear sprayed over the flat, would solve the issue? i think ive seen that on some hotrod show????


Forgot to point out the best build so far is the one by Edward B. I am sure there are others but for me his is the gold standard. Go post by post and if you follow what he does you can't go wrong. Ditto for Jeff Kleiner. Really good posts and good guy.

Good stuff, searching now.

[CraigS]

Engine-if you really want a big block go for it realizing you are adding weight. If you feel like you will always wish you had a BB, do it. Otherwise look at 351 based engines. W/ a stock 351 block you can go to 408 cid and easily have 500 very driveable HP. Also look at things like valve covers which can be had in BB replica style to fake a BB to all but the most knowledgeable. Aftermarket blocks open the CID options quite a bit. I don't know what the max is but 427 is easily doable. Personally I would stay away from other than Ford engines. A chevy would eliminate a large portion of your market if you decide to sell it later. Wheels/suspension: pin drive makes for extra complications and the shorter control arms are actually a disadvantage from a technical suspension geometry point of view. look at a lot of pics of wheels and see if some of the halibrand replicas will suit you in standard width. 15 inch limits tires greatly and brakes somewhat. I think 17s are now the standard. You are going the right way w/ the complete kit. You can easily build the car almost completely w/o an engine/trans so that will help spread out the expenses. As long as you decide whether the engine will be carbed or injected, you can run the appropriate fuel lines up to the last 18 inches or so w/o an engine. BTW, welcome to a fantastic adventure and thank you for your service.

[edwardb]

Welcome! Also from me, thank you for your service. You've gotten some good input so far. Couple of additional thoughts.

I completely understand the "It's your build, do what you want" comments. Certainly true for my builds. Having said that, I'm personally not a fan of non-Ford powerplants. Aside from the not very authentic aspect, unless you are an experienced mechanic and fabricator I think it can get really complicated. These builds can be challenging enough without adding a lot of complexity. But I know that's a little my conservative nature (and inexperience) showing. At the very least, if you go that way, I'd recommend getting the powertrain early in the build so you can confirm and make the necessary modifications to the engine mounts, sheet metal, transmission mounts, driveshaft, headers, etc. while everything is open and accessible.

Personally, if I were determined to really be at 427 cubes, I would go Ford bored/stroked small block. A 351 based block punched out to 427 fits reasonably well, makes crazy power, and you can hang the 427 badge and feel good about it. For my builds, I went 302 based Ford small block. A 306 in my Mk3 and a 347 in my Mk4. I just like how the 302 fits, it's lighter and nicely balanced, parts are plentiful and relatively cheap, and it allows me to maximize the footboxes and cockpit (think heat, noise, room for your feet) to make it a great cruiser. Still plenty of power, especially the 347. But that's my take. Everyone has their own take on these builds, and that's what makes it fun.

Pin drive is cool. As pointed out, make sure to understand the suspension differences, effect on choices like brakes, and so on. Also make sure to check with your local regulations. I've heard of some guys having trouble getting past safety inspections.

Good luck!

[Bob Cowan]

I think 5 lug is better. You have a better choice in wheels, and are not locked in to one particular make or model. Cheaper, too.

If the ZZ572 is your dream motor, then that's what you should use! Who cares what other people think at car shows and parking lots. What really matters is how you feel about it. If that's what makes you happy, then that's exactly what you should do.

I put a 427 small block in my car because that's what makes me happy. Being a Ford guy since the 70's, that's a magical number to me. That's what makes me happy, and I don't care what other people say.

[68GT500MAN]

Do not let the "Chevy" in a "Ford" group influence your choice of engine. I have seen many Chevy, MoPar and ford builds as well as many transmission choices over the years.
Doug

[willtwallace]

Good stuff, looking seriously into the ERA kits. The bonded body is peaking my curiosity...

[edwardb]

Good stuff, looking seriously into the ERA kits. The bonded body is peaking my curiosity...

Very nice cars. I've seen several in person, and I was impressed. Probably one of the more authentic looking replicas out there. And probably a little less fab than an FFR, although you do pay for it. Interesting though after all the talk about a Chevy powerplant you're looking at a company that specifically says not to put a Chevy engine in it. :confused:

And for the record (this is a Factory Five forum after all) no doubt the bonded body is good stuff. But the impression is that without it, the "loose" fiberglass body is going to wrinkle, crack, break, whatever. The Factory Five frame is stiff. It's the only car I've ever had where you could put a jack anywhere on the side (front, back, center, whatever) and the whole side lifts. There is no flex at all. Driving down the road you can feel it. The body doesn't move a bit. Check the forums. You won't find guys reporting the body cracking due to chassis flex. FWIW.

[willtwallace]

Very nice cars. I've seen several in person, and I was impressed. Probably one of the more authentic looking replicas out there. And probably a little less fab than an FFR, although you do pay for it. Interesting though after all the talk about a Chevy powerplant you're looking at a company that specifically says not to put a Chevy engine in it. :confused:

And for the record (this is a Factory Five forum after all) no doubt the bonded body is good stuff. But the impression is that without it, the "loose" fiberglass body is going to wrinkle, crack, break, whatever. The Factory Five frame is stiff. It's the only car I've ever had where you could put a jack anywhere on the side (front, back, center, whatever) and the whole side lifts. There is no flex at all. Driving down the road you can feel it. The body doesn't move a bit. Check the forums. You won't find guys reporting the body cracking due to chassis flex. FWIW.

Yes, understood. Im still in the research stage....as far as the chevy motor, as indicated earlier, that is my first impulse, not final decision.

Good stuff

[Jeff Kleiner]

Welcome William! Allow me to thank you for your service also and wish you a long and happy retirement!

I see that you have posted to both forums so I'll do the same and perhaps it will encourage additional comments. Why don't you tell us a little about your automotive experience. We've had guys who have spent decades turning wrenches as well as some who admitted that the most complex mechanical undertaking they had ever faced was assembling their gas grille. If you let us know where you fit in that mix it will help us guide you.

"Purists"? Bah... if they scoff at a non-Ford engine in a car that isn't really a Ford to begin with but simply a replica or facsimile they aren't really purists, they're just brand snobs. Build it as you wish; you won't get any argument or shunning from me :) Now, with that said when you start speaking of going with a Chevy engine in a vehicle that was designed around a Ford powerplant it immediately means that you will be facing some amount of fabrication for mounts, headers, cooling system and so forth. It's kind of the old fitting a square peg in a round hole deal; you're gonna' have to modify the peg, the hole or possibly both! It's been done but isn't common so you'll be on your own as you face some of those challenges. Are you up for that? If you're set on a "Big Block" both the Ford FE (390/427/428) and 385 Series (429/460) are supported by FFR and have been done many times. Be aware that any of those big ones, whether Bowtie or Blue Oval will pack the engine bay full and you don't have a chance of hooking any of them up with anything less than a drag tire!

Speaking of tires lets move on to wheels because I don't think anyone has actually clarified that you can have either true pin drives with a functional center knock off or set the car up to use bolt on wheels with "pin drive width" suspension. It's the pin drive width that gets that deep dish look. Here's a customer car that I just wrapped up recently that uses 17" bolt on pin drive width wheels---obviously the center caps and spinners were not on in this photo but it illustrates the deep dish look:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Thomas/100_4817.jpg

For comparison here are a couple of others I've done; the blue car has bolt on standard width 17" wheels and the red one uses standard width bolt on 15 inchers:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/RyanW/100_4539.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Mk4%207276/100_2635.jpg

If you opt for pin drive width it requires different lower control arms and SN95 spindles with a specific spindle adapter for the front. In the rear if going with IRS narrower pin drive width upper and lower arms are required or if running a straight axle it will have to be narrowed to the proper pin drive width. As you can see what might seem like a simple change often creates a "waterfall effect" that plays into other systems and components.

Finally, you mention a somewhat limited budget but talk of a $12-14K ZZ572 crate engine or ERA replica kind of run counter to that. Stick around, read, research and don't hesitate to ask a bunch of questions---we'll all be happy to help you come up with a plan! Oh, be aware that some of us will try to find plenty of ways to spend your money but you don't have to buy EVERYTHING we tempt you with ;)

Cheers,
Jeff

[Avalanche325]

Welcome!

One thing not mentioned about pin drives is that technically they will make the car not handle as well. The reason for that is that the shorter control arms give you a smaller "sweet spot" in the suspension travel. I don't know if you could actually tell in the real world. The super deep dish wheels do look great though. I feel that the 5 lugs are a little safer especially for autocross and track.

Here is my opinion on big blocks. There are two reasons to have one:
1. You are going to hang out at car shows with your hood up, rather than be on the road driving.
2. You just gotta' have one. (nothing wrong with that)

The small block based engines are better for performance (Cobras are meant to handle) and will cost less to build. 302 or 351 based stroker engines will get you more power than you can use and not add weight to the car. Going past 347(ish) on a 302 or 408 on a 351 and you are going to an aftermarket block which will add more than $2000. But it will still be cheaper than that Bowtie crate engine you are looking at. What are you going to do with the car? If you are going to autocross or track, stay with a small block. The 289s are the ones that won all of the races. But if a big block is what you want, it is what you want.

Chevy engines are great. You are asking for extra cost and some fabrication issues. It has been done before, so no big deal. The biggest single factor not to do it, is that you will have a hard time selling the car if you ever decide to do so. My personal opinion, since you asked. Ford engines keep the car more of a "replica". Chevy engines send these into "kit car" territory.

As most people state. Gather information, listen to opinions, but build the car the way you want.

[Avalanche325]

By the way. You have your color picked out? You are way ahead of the game. I waited 9 years before ordering my kit. I am just short of 3 on the build. I am shooting primer this weekend and last week........color change.....again. It will be locked in when I buy the paint.

[willtwallace]

Welcome William! Allow me to thank you for your service also and wish you a long and happy retirement!

I see that you have posted to both forums so I'll do the same and perhaps it will encourage additional comments. Why don't you tell us a little about your automotive experience. We've had guys who have spent decades turning wrenches as well as some who admitted that the most complex mechanical undertaking they had ever faced was assembling their gas grille. If you let us know where you fit in that mix it will help us guide you.

"Purists"? Bah... if they scoff at a non-Ford engine in a car that isn't really a Ford to begin with but simply a replica or facsimile they aren't really purists, they're just brand snobs. Build it as you wish; you won't get any argument or shunning from me :) Now, with that said when you start speaking of going with a Chevy engine in a vehicle that was designed around a Ford powerplant it immediately means that you will be facing some amount of fabrication for mounts, headers, cooling system and so forth. It's kind of the old fitting a square peg in a round hole deal; you're gonna' have to modify the peg, the hole or possibly both! It's been done but isn't common so you'll be on your own as you face some of those challenges. Are you up for that? If you're set on a "Big Block" both the Ford FE (390/427/428) and 385 Series (429/460) are supported by FFR and have been done many times. Be aware that any of those big ones, whether Bowtie or Blue Oval will pack the engine bay full and you don't have a chance of hooking any of them up with anything less than a drag tire!

Speaking of tires lets move on to wheels because I don't think anyone has actually clarified that you can have either true pin drives with a functional center knock off or set the car up to use bolt on wheels with "pin drive width" suspension. It's the pin drive width that gets that deep dish look. Here's a customer car that I just wrapped up recently that uses 17" bolt on pin drive width wheels---obviously the center caps and spinners were not on in this photo but it illustrates the deep dish look:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Thomas/100_4817.jpg

For comparison here are a couple of others I've done; the blue car has bolt on standard width 17" wheels and the red one uses standard width bolt on 15 inchers:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/RyanW/100_4539.jpg

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Mk4%207276/100_2635.jpg

If you opt for pin drive width it requires different lower control arms and SN95 spindles with a specific spindle adapter for the front. In the rear if going with IRS narrower pin drive width upper and lower arms are required or if running a straight axle it will have to be narrowed to the proper pin drive width. As you can see what might seem like a simple change often creates a "waterfall effect" that plays into other systems and components.

Finally, you mention a somewhat limited budget but talk of a $12-14K ZZ572 crate engine or ERA replica kind of run counter to that. Stick around, read, research and don't hesitate to ask a bunch of questions---we'll all be happy to help you come up with a plan! Oh, be aware that some of us will try to find plenty of ways to spend your money but you don't have to buy EVERYTHING we tempt you with ;)

Cheers,
Jeff

Thank for the reply Jeff. As far as mechanical experience goes I don’t have any “civilian” experience, but I have a hodge-podge of assorted experience. Growing up as a kid living with my grandparents I learned to work on anything from chain saws, Ford and Farmall tractors, to old trucks, I thought this was what everyone did. It wasn’t until I got older, that I realized this was done out of necessity. Nevertheless, this was the primary reason I initially joined the Army as a diesel mechanic (63B/S). That led to a love of all things mechanical. After going to Germany I became hooked on German cars, I have since built and maintained more than a few BMWs. I currently have a 500whp 1995 M3 that was rescued from a uncaring soccer mom. It gets its power from a 2.1l Kenne Bell TS. Also, I race and maintain a 2011 BMW S1KRR. However, I have always wanted a AC Cobra.

Budget is ALWAYS a concern. BUT, I know from modding BMWs over the years that you have to pay to play.

Ford will most likely be the motor of choice. I appreciate any and all advice.

Yes, ive posted on most of all the forums. I have been looking deeply into ERA. But, we will see. Again, I appreciate the feedback.

[willtwallace]

By the way. You have your color picked out? You are way ahead of the game. I waited 9 years before ordering my kit. I am just short of 3 on the build. I am shooting primer this weekend and last week........color change.....again. It will be locked in when I buy the paint.

Yes Sir, its a color ive always liked.

[willtwallace]

Welcome!

One thing not mentioned about pin drives is that technically they will make the car not handle as well. The reason for that is that the shorter control arms give you a smaller "sweet spot" in the suspension travel. I don't know if you could actually tell in the real world. The super deep dish wheels do look great though. I feel that the 5 lugs are a little safer especially for autocross and track.

Here is my opinion on big blocks. There are two reasons to have one:
1. You are going to hang out at car shows with your hood up, rather than be on the road driving.
2. You just gotta' have one. (nothing wrong with that)

The small block based engines are better for performance (Cobras are meant to handle) and will cost less to build. 302 or 351 based stroker engines will get you more power than you can use and not add weight to the car. Going past 347(ish) on a 302 or 408 on a 351 and you are going to an aftermarket block which will add more than $2000. But it will still be cheaper than that Bowtie crate engine you are looking at. What are you going to do with the car? If you are going to autocross or track, stay with a small block. The 289s are the ones that won all of the races. But if a big block is what you want, it is what you want.

Chevy engines are great. You are asking for extra cost and some fabrication issues. It has been done before, so no big deal. The biggest single factor not to do it, is that you will have a hard time selling the car if you ever decide to do so. My personal opinion, since you asked. Ford engines keep the car more of a "replica". Chevy engines send these into "kit car" territory.

As most people state. Gather information, listen to opinions, but build the car the way you want.

Motor choice will most likely be a Ford.
I have no plans to track the car.
It will most likely be a Sunday Church car, sunny day drive with wife car, local car hang out car.

Thanks for the input.

William
"Professional Beginner"

[NICK C]

William welcome to the dark side. You'll find a great deal of help on this forum with a great bunch of people willing to have you pic their brains. No question is too dumb. I know cuz I've asked em all. I have a MKIV that I have near start up phase and have a 460 with a Mass Flo fuel injection. Its your car and whatever you decide to use is the right engine. Is my 460 practical? Not really, but will give me something to talk about in the coming years when I build another with a small block in it. Have fun and enjoy the build. Nick C

[willtwallace]

William welcome to the dark side. You'll find a great deal of help on this forum with a great bunch of people willing to have you pic their brains. No question is too dumb. I know cuz I've asked em all. I have a MKIV that I have near start up phase and have a 460 with a Mass Flo fuel injection. Its your car and whatever you decide to use is the right engine. Is my 460 practical? Not really, but will give me something to talk about in the coming years when I build another with a small block in it. Have fun and enjoy the build. Nick C

good stuff, thanks. Im getting smarter on Ford engines

[Avalanche325]

Motor choice will most likely be a Ford.
I have no plans to track the car.
It will most likely be a Sunday Church car, sunny day drive with wife car, local car hang out car.

Thanks for the input.

William
"Professional Beginner"

For that description, I would recommend that you not get too crazy with HP. First of all, these cars are in the 2150 lbs range. An e36 M3 weighs over 1000 lbs more. So, you simply don't need huge power to have a fast car. Power costs money. Power with reliability costs a LOT of money.

One other thing to think about, especially with a wife involved, is noise. These cars are LOUD. As the power goes up, the noise goes up. I have a 347 with around 500hp. That involves AL heads, a big cam and 4 into 4 headers. Mine is so loud that even a 10 minute drive requires ear plugs. A 400hp 347 is considerably quieter than mine. My wife will always choose our Infiniti for a cruise down the coast. There are a couple quieter pipe options available, but additional money.

[willtwallace]

For that description, I would recommend that you not get too crazy with HP. First of all, these cars are in the 2150 lbs range. An e36 M3 weighs over 1000 lbs more. So, you simply don't need huge power to have a fast car. Power costs money. Power with reliability costs a LOT of money.

One other thing to think about, especially with a wife involved, is noise. These cars are LOUD. As the power goes up, the noise goes up. I have a 347 with around 500hp. That involves AL heads, a big cam and 4 into 4 headers. Mine is so loud that even a 10 minute drive requires ear plugs. A 400hp 347 is considerably quieter than mine. My wife will always choose our Infiniti for a cruise down the coast. There are a couple quieter pipe options available, but additional money.

good points, however, wife is a country girl...she has been with me through 25 years of stoopid loud motorcycles, cars, and still loves to go to the range with me, etc...she is the least of my worries; conversely shes a primary supporter.

*annoyingly loud is one of the implied goals for "my" car. I see no reason in having a sports car that's quiet and comfortable? That's just me.