Body Install Problem

[Jaime]

I can't seem to get my body to line up right. Everything from the side sails back is square and sits where I want it to be. However, when I put on the front end, something is always off. If I make the fenders meet the sides properly, and get the hood to line up, the whole front end is crooked. Here is where the corners of the hood land:

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/20141207_211149_zpscbfmqze7.jpg

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/20141207_211204_zpsgdwn9e5p.jpg

If I straighten that out, the bumper and the hood are way off.

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/20141207_213537_zps175hhoke.jpg

If I line up the bumper to the hood, then the right side fender can't stretch far enough back to mount properly to the side. It's like my right side is too short or left side is too long. Any ideas?

[JeromeS13]

Make sure your front radiator support framing is square. I recall seeing Wayne or someone from Grassroots having to use a bit of force to get theirs back square.

[Jaime]

I'll measure it, but I don't think that's contributing to my problem. I don't even have the nose screwed to the radiator support yet.

I'm pretty sure that if I took the whole body off and assembled it on the ground, the right side would be shorter than the left. I tried measuring individual panels, but I haven't found the part that's different yet.

[Jaime]

If I measure along this red line on both sides, I get 95 3/8 on the right and 95 5/8 on the left.

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/MeasureLength_zps77f51637.png

Unfortunately, the junction between the fender and the side doesn't have any room for error. Even 1/8" misalignment is very visible there. Stretching the fender causes the wheel well to distort and makes it even harder to get the upper rear mount in the right place.

[JeromeS13]

If your front panels match, as far as measurements go, it would appear that your side sails are mounted slightly differently.

[Jaime]

I'm measuring from the back of the door opening, which is part of the side, to the front of the fenders. If one side was further back, it would pull the fender back with it since the only reference I'm using to mount the fender is the side panel. The nose simply goes at the front of the fenders - I'm not trying to force it to hit somewhere.

The other technique I tried was setting the left fender, then putting the nose/hood/right fender where they need to be to make the front end straight and square. When I do this, the right fender is too far forward and the right front wheel well gets all distorted when I pull the rear of the render back far enough to match the front of the side sail. Or, if I pull the side forward enough to match, then the rear of the door opening doesn't match the engine cover.

[metalmaker12]

If you notice the hood edges, ones more pointed than the other, if you shape the point down it should look closer. You can make up a 1/4" no problem. You must mount everything as it will be finalized, headlight need to go in to. You will notice as you lag it down and trim here and there it will line up within an 1/8.

[twgab]

Check to see if your heat exchange for your intercooler is keeping the nose from sitting where it should. I'm using the same heat exchange, mounted almost the same as yours, and I had to trim around it quite a bit to get everything to line up.

[Jaime]

My problem seems to be that the radiator subframe is shifted 3/4" towards the passenger side. It does seem to be square, just shifted.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

My problem seems to be that the radiator subframe is shifted 3/4" towards the passenger side. It does seem to be square, just shifted.

Jaime
that is interesting.
Early frame had the steering rack shifter 20mm (3/4") toward the drivers side.
They fixed that.
Maybe they did not move the radiator frame mounts when they the steering rack to the passenger side.
Best check is to cross corner measure the box above the radiator for square.
Bob

[Jaime]

The box will probably be square. I had to pull a string from the center of the rear of the passenger compartment to the nose to find this. I used these two points as references:

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[Jaime]

Almost there. All of the misalignment is in the bars in front of the radiator. The radiator itself is centered. I had to cut 1/2 inch from the driver's side nose mount tab to push the nose over enough to be in the middle. When I get it right I'll take a picture. The most obvious place is the very front bar - it is very obviously not centered on the nose.

[AZPete]

Jaime, this won't solve the off-center nose problem but Dan (SEP1ex...) found that when positioned correctly the back of the door is exactly 8 inches from the frame. Once I saw this I moved one of my side panels 1/4".
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb180/AZPeteCobra/sidesailupperposition.jpg (http://s210.photobucket.com/user/AZPeteCobra/media/sidesailupperposition.jpg.html)

[Jaime]

Yup. My engine cover fits really tight, so there is only one configuration where the engine cover will close and will line up with the sides.

[Mechie3]

I measured mine and mine ended up being 7 3/4". I think it would be good for FFR to provide that dimension. The front dimension is easier to measure but you have tolerance stackups from where/how they cut the front of the body. The important part is where the door frame is, not the front.

[tmoretta]

So then can one be confident using the rear of door opening measure and then riveting the rear quarter panels, or is it necessary to trial mount more body panels before any riveting/bolting of parts?

[RM1SepEx]

It is very important to get it square, So I found that bolting up the side panels in the right place comes first. Don't attach the rear fender pads until you get the engine cover in place to hold the gaps.

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I did this measurement in addition to the 5/8 to the front tube at the very bottom of the side panel in front. My new panels are a bit "off" compared to the originals, on the left side I had to fudge that front edge to get the rear square on the frame.

I then used a piece of aluminum angle to hold the sides in position to drill the pads by the shock mounts. I found that the body fit better if I used an adjustable to bend the outside edge of those frame pads down a bit, the side panels move easier to do the alignment.

[Quiny]

I have been struggling with this for a couple of weeks. I have been trying to fit the headlight assemblies fender etc.. with very little success. Every time I get one area close the other side is off. I finally found a way to do it, worked really well. My 15 year old son suggested that we build the nose off the car then place it in position. It worked really well. Knowing that there are a lot of places that have to line up perfectly start with that. This is the procedure.

1) Find a big space.
2) The fenders and the nose need to meet at the front of the wheel well, clamp and drill for at least 1 bolt, both sides. Match the body contours so it looks aligned.
3) Support the rear of the fenders (wood blocks)so the assembly sits flat on the floor like it should.
4) Lay the hood in place, you will need to spread the fenders.
5) Get the hood centered and in place the duct tape the seem, really well.
6) If you need to use the nose front hood pin mount brackets to hold the front of the hood. If you use them you need to drill mounting holes.
7) Get help and lay the entire assembled nose on the front of the car, center it close as you can.
8) Secure the rear fenders to running boards on the side sails, they only line up one way to fit right.
9) Measure from the top of the upper control arm mount to the wheel well top on both sides, get them equal.
10) Secure the rest from underneath drilling into the mounting pads and the fiberglass.

Forget the headlights at this point, get everything else to fit first.

[Buzz Skyline]

Thanks for posting the suggestions. I think I'll try it your son's way

Have you done the headlights since putting the front end on the car?

[RM1SepEx]

The key is relieving the edges of many of the panels, the hood, trunk, engine cover need to have returns that are about 3/8 to align with the rubber in place

The fenders need to have very thin returns at the eyelid area for the headlights, the buckets need to be fitted to sit inside and under the nose.

The nose and headlight buckets need to be relieved to avoid any contact with the nose support on the sides of the radiator opening

The rear of the fenders need to be cut so there is almost no return especially at the bottom or the doors will not clear when open.

The door latches need to be put to the inside of the car as far as possible, that allows you to have just a slot vs cutting out a rectangle for the latch.

A cross brace makes it so much easier to align the engine cover and trunk. Craig sells an awesome tubular one with LH and RH rod ends making it easy to adjust. I have some other plans for round two... I want to use aluminum angle and use them to define my trunk.

[Jaime]

I'm very happy now - everything is lined up. The right fender is stressed a bit to get the hood opening wide enough, but much better than before.

Here's what was off:

Drivers side nose (front of hood opening), looking in at a bit of an angle:
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/20141216_223127_zpsrnu1yseo.jpg

Passenger side, looking in at a similar angle:
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/20141216_223135_zpstgewrgeh.jpg

Here's a drawing of the issue, black outline is the nose and red outline is the front section of the radiator subframe:
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/FrontEnd_zps510eaa29.png

[Quiny]

Thanks for posting the suggestions. I think I'll try it your son's way

Have you done the headlights since putting the front end on the car?

Doing that now, I cut way more than I needed to doing it the other way. I'm putting back and bracing much of the material I cut out. Headlights are loose now. I may need to get another set of buckets. I wish I did Rory's method (my son) first, headlights are still a pain but it would have been much easer having the exact opening size to fit to.

[dougkirkbride]

36930

is there any quick fix for the out of square radiator frame due to the mount being off? I looked at mine today (chasis # 115) its definatley out of sqaure, shifted towards the driver side probably 3/4 of an inch. no fluids in my radiator yet so i can eaisily remove to make adjustments but the design of the mount with the steering rack located directly over it doesnt lend itself to many options for adjustments. just wondering what others have done or if people are just mounting the body sqaure to the unsquare frame :(

[flynntuna]

Check out the build videos at grassroots magazine, the front bodywork one. Looks like they had the same problem.

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/search/?q=Factory+five+818

[metalmaker12]

I'm very happy now - everything is lined up. The right fender is stressed a bit to get the hood opening wide enough, but much better than before.

Here's what was off:

Drivers side nose (front of hood opening), looking in at a bit of an angle:
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/20141216_223127_zpsrnu1yseo.jpg

Passenger side, looking in at a similar angle:
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/20141216_223135_zpstgewrgeh.jpg

Here's a drawing of the issue, black outline is the nose and red outline is the front section of the radiator subframe:
http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/FrontEnd_zps510eaa29.png


Bend it over to make it square, when things get welded they tend to move to the side you weld first and that's why it's off. I can bet they barely jig the support up and set it aside when they think it's cold enough but not fully cooled and it moves.

[dougkirkbride]

Bend it over to make it square, when things get welded they tend to move to the side you weld first and that's why it's off. I can bet they barely jig the support up and set it aside when they think it's cold enough but not fully cooled and it moves.

I did just that, used a come-a-long attached on the drivers side front corner and pulled it side ways towards the passenger side. i had to also connect one to the frame and attatch to opposite side (I was pulling the whole frame over at first). I got it within an 1/8th inch of square according to my measurements. wont know for sure how it looks till i fit the hood and fenders, but it looks better and i feel good about it. ;) i really had to over stress/bend it and take measurements a few times and see what i endid up with so i didnt over bend it permanently.

[RM1SepEx]

my cross measurements show 1/2 longer to the left as well... Haven't straightened it yet, first nose lined up well w/o straightening it.

[RM1SepEx]

More work done today, I've moved the sides back about 1/4 to get better fit at the roll bar hoop, like Jaime my front radiator support is 1/2 off to the driver's side. Working to tweak it now...

I'm concerned that the doors are too short in the front and not sure how to finish the top front of the door and the gap just below the windshield. I'm not using WRX mirrors so I don't have that thick metal plate to support them. I'm thinking that I want some triangular side windows to aid in supporting the windshield frame and improve the cockpit's air turbulence (based on my other convertibles)

[RM1SepEx]

Update w photos, Pete made me go back and re-read my own thread from the last time... Figured I would do better this time!

side panels: I don't want to cut into them for the roll bar so I moved them back until I got a good fit, turns out that I had to move them back so that the latch brackets are right at the edge of the body panels. 5/8 in the lower front is indeed "just a starting point" to quote Pete!

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I clamped up the rear clip and clamped a piece of 1 x 1 x 1/8 angle to keep the fenders at the right distance. I want to leave a piece of steel angle here long term to use as a base for my hinge system, TBD


The nose: Let's start by squaring everything up. Measure from the firewall to the nose mounting pads and diagonally from the point of the hinge bracket to the nose pads. I think everyone will find that the nose is sitting about 1/2 inch farther diagonally to the driver's side. Chris (Metalmaker) thinks that this is due to jig design, he is the welding expert!




37338

[RM1SepEx]

These pads are an issue. Their width doesn't allow you to just slide the nose side to side to adjust nose position, I'm planning on some cutting to allow sliding the nose to the passenger side. When I put the nose on I have about 1/4 inch bias towards the driver's side. Watch the GRM video, they had to remove some of this driver's side pad too...

I'm not sure how else the pads need to be modified, FFR tells us that the lower nose can bolt to the radiator frame, I don't know anyone who didn't make some sort of a bracket, my first attempt used a piece of 2 x 2 x 1/8 aluminum angle to make it fit.

I found that the rear of the front fenders hit the windshield post. I'm positioning my windshield as far to the back as possible, I'm not sure if it needs to be adjusted up and down yet for clearance.




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[Jaime]

I had to chop a ton off my driver's side nose mounting pad. I won't be able to move mine back as far as yours unless I move the pads back towards the cockpit.

[Quiny]

I cut my nose mounting pads as well. Just keep in mind that there are a couple of body mounting points that we don't have much control over. Where the front fenders meet the side sails and where the front fenders meet the nose (behind the headlight and in front). If you move the sails too far back you will not get the fenders to line up. Keep in mind the nose can only come so far forward before it hits the lower radiator support frame. I had to mount one sail at 5/8 and the other at 1/4 to keep everything even and the nose straight.

[Jaime]

Keep in mind the nose can only come so far forward before it hits the lower radiator support frame.
Absolutely. If I move my nose any further back, I'll have to make new vertical supports because the AWIC heat exchanger will chop it in half.

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/20141030_215959_zpsb5was2kd.jpg

[Buzz Skyline]

I'm positioning my windshield as far to the back as possible, I'm not sure if it needs to be adjusted up and down yet for clearance.

If you're planning on putting the FFR soft top on it, though, I think the windshield frame has to be pretty far forward to meet the measurements specified in manual revision 1H - at least it does on my frame. I hope to buy the soft top eventually, so I'm expecting a bit of a challenge to get everything to line up based on what you folks are saying here.

[RM1SepEx]

Nope, everything moves relative to each other. The fenders attach in one place on the rockers, the side panels are one piece and define where the doors are. They have to be in the same place relative to each other... You may have to tweak the windshield a bit to match the top's requirements. I won't be using the top, I want a targa top with a soft top.

My first body was mounted before the top was available... the measurements were exactly what they ask for... The entire body can be positioned fore and aft quite a bit... if more forward, you get the cuts in the humps for the bars...

[Mechie3]

Absolutely. If I move my nose any further back, I'll have to make new vertical supports because the AWIC heat exchanger will chop it in half.



Move the HE. I took the top tabs, bent them flat again and mounted the HE flush with the top of subframe. That should give you an extra 1/2-1"

[Buzz Skyline]

Nope, everything moves relative to each other. The fenders attach in one place on the rockers, the side panels are one piece and define where the doors are. They have to be in the same place relative to each other... You may have to tweak the windshield a bit to match the top's requirements. I won't be using the top, I want a targa top with a soft top.


I just checked again, and with my frame the windshield has to be *all the way* forward to achieve the location required for a soft top according to the H1 manual revision. I'm sure I'll be able to get all the front panels to fit, but the windshield location is going to be the baseline I'll have to work around.

[Kurk818]

Im having enough issues with mounting the headlights within the buckets that im planning on ditching them and creating my own mounting system. Anyone on the same page? I have the Spyder headlights BTW

[Buzz Skyline]

Do you have the plastic buckets? (I understand there are fiberglass ones as well, but mine are plastic.) I got my headlights to fit nicely by removing just a little fiberglass from the fender at the outside corner of the lights. They have to be all the way down in the buckets, not sitting up on the edge, in order to line up the fender properly. I can post a few pics, if you need it.

[gwarden]

Buzz please post any pics you have I am right there with Kurk have been trying for 2 weeks to fit the headlights

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Buzz please post any pics you have I am right there with Kurk have been trying for 2 weeks to fit the headlights

Gwarden, I just had some success mounting my head lights.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12534-MRG-MotorSports-818S-Build&p=191495&viewfull=1#post191495

1. do it with the bumper on a flat table.
2. Mount the plastic buckets so the front edge is about 3/8" below the bumper edge.
3. the bucket bent down edge near the hood pins was bent in the wrong place on my buckets. About 1/2" off.
So I had that edge inside the hood pin fiberglass with 1/4" spacers on the bolts.

I'm going to do a video on my second head light this weekend.
Bob

[Kurk818]

Do you have the plastic buckets? (I understand there are fiberglass ones as well, but mine are plastic.) I got my headlights to fit nicely by removing just a little fiberglass from the fender at the outside corner of the lights. They have to be all the way down in the buckets, not sitting up on the edge, in order to line up the fender properly. I can post a few pics, if you need it.

Do you have the body attached to the chassis as well? There's definitely a difference when mounting the headlights just into the bumper and buckets on the floor and once installed as an assembly on the car.

[Kurk818]

Another tip is to have the front bumper and fenders installed on the chassis with no buckets. Place the headlights and hold them in place from within the wheel well areas and position the headlights to fit the cut out best. Make not of any fitment adjustments that need to be performed to the fiberglass and trim as needed.

Once headlights fit as you like, have an extra person apply tape to the headlight to follow the contour of the bumper. Make alignment lines on the newly applied tape on the headlight and bumper in 4 or more locations to ensure side to side positioning.

Remove the bumper assembly and place on level surface. Now install buckets and make necessary adjustments to bucket test fitting the headlight to reference lines. As mentioned previously, the headlights sit approx 3/8" below the bumper lip

[CU9DZ]

Thanks. I will measure my radiator frame / bumper support to see if it is square tomorrow.
Davis