Why?

[Motorhead]

Dave,
I'm curious to know WHY FFR set up their own forum, you already have FFCars at your disposal, for the very reason you gave everyone for creating this forum. I don't get it. In my opinion, that was a bad move. Now Factory Five is competing with the very forum that 1, helped make FFR so successful, in a huge way. 2, Went through a lawsuit for pretty much just being connected to FFR. ****** knows how important FFCars is to the success of FFR, so attacking the forum with a legal suit was a strategic move, that failed. I'm having trouble seeing why this forum was needed and can see what it's going to do to FFCars. One of the forums is going to die, it may not be tomorrow, but it will happen. Either this one won't completely catch on, or everyone from FFCars will eventually migrate over here. I'd just like to know why Factory Five did this, to me, it doesn't make any sense. If it was strictly a way to communicate the changes FFR owners would like to see to the cars and the parts, it would make sense. But the structure of this forum is almost identical to FFCars.

Cheers,
Joe

[FFREric]

I can't speak for Dave but if you read what the corporation that purchased ffcars has done to other forums you can figure it out. If the ffcars forum was the center point of your customer's community, and you saw more and more issues and concerns arising from memebers it would be prudent to offer an alternative. At the open house today Dave said the advertisers here would only be charged enough to cover costs, this will not be looked at as a revenue stream.

[THE ITALIAN]

I think they were just waiting for Bill to bail - he was a great guy to do what he did for so long.
It's a fresh start ,we all were very comfortable @ FFCARS,but life's changes are here everyday.
The information is not lost ,it is in the members.This will feel more like family once it gets on it's feet.
Some of the info on the old site is out of date since the tech has changed.
I for one will make it fun.
Mike THE ITALIAN

[Forbye4]

I think they were just waiting for Bill to bail - he was a great guy to do what he did for so long.
It's a fresh start ,we all were very comfortable @ FFCARS,but life's changes are here everyday.
The information is not lost ,it is in the members.This will feel more like family once it gets on it's feet.
Some of the info on the old site is out of date since the tech has changed.
I for one will make it fun.
Mike THE ITALIAN

X2, and at the end of the day business is business!

[mrmustang]

Personally I'm surprised FFR has not done so sooner, but in the same breath realize that they had other things on their mind.


Bill S.

[Xybram]

This is a fantastic move. Gets this forum back into the folds of the community where it belongs!

And we now have EFNFAST back. Motorhead, you'll like him!

Chris

[Motorhead]

Chris, I know Alex. If you weren't aware of it, he was TheChosenOne recently on the forum. One of the mods must have figured it out, because he was banned just last month. If FFR wanted their own forum, why not just BUY FFCars from Bill? To me, THAT would have been a smart move. Why do more work than you need to? The forum was already in place, and has been for YEARS. There is data there that FFR can never bring over here. The info in that site is enormous! It's also part of the history of FFR. So, not buying the forum and setting up their own was a stupid move on their part. There are 2 ways to do things, the right way and the wrong way. I feel this was the wrong way and a blind man could see that.

[Xybram]

I know, wasn't sure if you were aware of it.

Chris

[efnfast]

Chris, I know Alex. If you weren't aware of it, he was TheChosenOne recently on the forum. One of the mods must have figured it out, because he was banned just last month. If FFR wanted their own forum, why not just BUY FFCars from Bill? To me, THAT would have been a smart move. Why do more work than you need to? The forum was already in place, and has been for YEARS. There is data there that FFR can never bring over here. The info in that site is enormous! It's also part of the history of FFR. So, not buying the forum and setting up their own was a stupid move on their part. There are 2 ways to do things, the right way and the wrong way. I feel this was the wrong way and a blind man could see that.


Given the price Bill wanted for the forum (I'd imagine >$10k), and given the cost to advertise on, it would have made no business sense to do that. It would be 100x cheaper to just start your own forum.

[Bob Barnett]

There are 2 ways to do things, the right way and the wrong way. I feel this was the wrong way and a blind man could see that.

Apparently Dave does not share that opinon. I would guess that it is his opinion that counts in this respect.

[quicksand]

I'm guessin' that Bill had some outside influence as a reward for the community he created...a great deal for all involved

[OttawaFFRer]

I agree, this is business.

It's also another resource for builders,owners and dreamers!

[Mark Reid]

Business is business and this was a great move. Go Dave!

[Mark Reid]

Oh yeah, welcome back efnfast! Glad to see you here.

[Dave Smith]

I was never offered the chance to buy FFcars. I think we can co-exist, and I think we can bring in alot of different things that other places cant. I love FFcars and supported it for a long time for $2,000 per month in advertising. I will expound on this more tomorrow, but I'm getting the stick-eye from my wife cause we're late for a dinner date... Not good!

Dave Smith
FFR001

[NAGA]

One shouldn't assume anything negative about the start up of this forum. We all wish ffcars continued success. Plenty of us are members of the Cobraforum as well and it's never been stronger.

This is a good move for Dave. He has some great ideas and we'll be doing some unique things, such as the blogs you're already seeing.

Stay engaged.

d

[AZPete]

Great move, Dave. I wonder also what took FFR so long but now look forward to both FFCars and this place. Yippee, another place to suck up time since I'm now between builds.
Pete

[first time builder]

Dave said he will comment further, he has always been a stand up guy lets give him a chance .

Kenny

[Rob J]

Personally I'm surprised FFR has not done so sooner, but in the same breath realize that they had other things on their mind.


Bill S.

I for one am VERY Happy they did it. Personally for me with all the money that got donated to the lawsuit, then the sell out, I've got a bad taste left in my mouth. REAL BAD.

[Someday I Suppose]

I think it makes a great deal of sense as well, sort of feel silly for not having seen it coming. On the why not buy FFCars out, Dave already said he wasn't given that option, but I think also from a corporate perspective and how you want your forum to support your brand starting fresh probably makes sense, not only from a content and control standpoint, but from a cost perspective as well.

-Scott

[mikeinatlanta]

I for one am VERY Happy they did it. Personally for me with all the money that got donated to the lawsuit, then the sell out, I've got a bad taste left in my mouth. REAL BAD.

Me too.....

[soggy bottom]

I personaly think its great a fresh start, and Dave please no private section look at what that turned in to, a disgrace would not even come close to discribing it.

[Darren]

Why not... ?

[mrmustang]

I for one am VERY Happy they did it. Personally for me with all the money that got donated to the lawsuit, then the sell out, I've got a bad taste left in my mouth. REAL BAD.

I was happy to assist both FFR and Bill P. any way I could in regards to the lawsuit(s), can't say I feel betrayed one way or the other in regards to those types of donations. I do feel a small sense of betrayal in regards to the timing and sale of the forum to an outside company though. I could say more and get into greater detail (actual dollars and cents), but feel that would be counter productive to this new forum.


Bill S.

[Warlock]

I for one am VERY Happy they did it. Personally for me with all the money that got donated to the lawsuit, then the sell out, I've got a bad taste left in my mouth. REAL BAD.

I agree, good move Dave!

[Motorhead]

Then I'm sorry for casting a bad image on FFR. I find it kind of baffling that FFR wasn't offered for it. No disrespect to Bill on that.The way everything happened just seemed... strange to not have some communication. If both forums last, that's great really. Just doesn't seem likely to me, but I've been on the opposite side of things before.

[Shaun R]

I'm -all in-.
Since the old place does not have Bill, or one of us at the helm; no one is really looking out for our best interest.
I am a junkie enough to be at one place!

[speedking]

The worst thing about the old FFcars is the mods. There are mods there that don't even own a FFR, just trying to get the post count up!

[Motorhead]

Speedking, you do realize that most of the mods on FFCars are mods here...

[mikeinatlanta]

The worst thing about the old FFcars is the mods. There are mods there that don't even own a FFR, just trying to get the post count up!
X2,3&4!!

Just kidding:o You got to admit, that was one funny post.

[Tim Potts]

Joe, I remember when FFCOBRA started up and members of the old Cobraforum were solicited at least I was to joint the "new forum". And that seemed wrong back then. What comes around goes around. There was a lot of info and history lost then but Mark and Dave's customers survived. FFRs success is from customer feedback not a forum. They were successful before FFCobra/FFcars came along because of the PEOPLE (Customer). A FORUM is just a House the people live in. And now I am glad that the HOME is finally in House so to speak. Why should someone else profit from a FFR forum? As far as lost info the new FFR forum will eventually become more helpful to the new builder especially since its supported by FFR.
I would strongly incourage that new builders ask their questions here.

[Big-Foot]

The worst thing about the old FFcars is the mods. There are mods there that don't even own a FFR, just trying to get the post count up!

Huh?

I suppose that could be targeting me... I'm a moderator on ffcars and don't currently own an FFR. But I've built 6 of them....
Not really concerned about Post Count.. More concerned about post quality and usefulness..

[soggy bottom]

What exactly does one have to do to raise there post count? Inquiring minds want to know.

[Rob J]

The worst thing about the old FFcars is the mods. There are mods there that don't even own a FFR, just trying to get the post count up!

Hey, I resemble that remark. But I did used to own one, and I did build it.

[efnfast]

I for one am VERY Happy they did it. Personally for me with all the money that got donated to the lawsuit, then the sell out, I've got a bad taste left in my mouth. REAL BAD.


This may, or may not, be an unpopular thought process, but here's what I fail to see when everybody starts talking about community.

First of all, everybody knows that this community (ffr) is tightly knit and when asked for help will give it freely. When I needed help installing axles on my build, a local builder came over, in full business suit & dress shoes, after a meeting and showed me how to do the axles. There's no question in anybody's mind that if a builder needs help, it will be provided.

For the sake of my discussion, we all know Bill is well off (big house, ford gt, lotus, maserati, 2-3 factor fives that we know of, successful online scooter business, ffr forum netting atleast 60k/yr for several years) ..... the only reason I mention this is because this is not a case where the forum is, for example, his livelihood and he depends on the revenue from it to support his family because of a medical disability and is unable to work (I know a case like this, which is why I state it)

The net operating revenue from the forum could, realistically, have probably either covered the cost of the lawsuit, or covered the majority of it, making it post a slight net loss for the year (which could easily have been made up from previous years).

So based on that, since this is about community, instead of having the community pay for the lawsuit so the site posts a net profit for that year, why not start a charity at a local hospital for sick children and tell the forum to donate there to show support? Have a real impact on some lives, instead of lining the bank account.

Alternatively, since the community donated a crap-load of money towards the lawsuit, why not take 50%, 75%, heck, even 100% of the proceeds from the sale of the site and start a yearly charity at a local GA hospital for sick children (e.g., like corvetteforum.com does with St. Judes). Say 'Hey guys; thanks for the support in the lawsuit. I can no longer run FFRCars due to other commitments, but to thank the community I'm hoping to start a yearly donation program at X hospital for sick children. Here's the first donation - 100% proceeds from the sale of the site; hopefully you guys contribute this year, and all future years to this charity to help the children'.

That's real community imho - not asking for money from members whom you know will give it (some of whom, based on the posts about lost jobs and hard times, will still dig deep to help out) just to post a net profit for the year.

[mrmustang]

This may, or may not, be an unpopular thought process, but here's what I fail to see when everybody starts talking about community.

First of all, everybody knows that this community (ffr) is tightly knit and when asked for help will give it freely. When I needed help installing axles on my build, a local builder came over, in full business suit & dress shoes, after a meeting and showed me how to do the axles. There's no question in anybody's mind that if a builder needs help, it will be provided.

For the sake of my discussion, we all know Bill is well off (big house, ford gt, lotus, maserati, 2-3 factor fives that we know of, successful online scooter business, ffr forum netting atleast 60k/yr for several years) ..... the only reason I mention this is because this is not a case where the forum is, for example, his livelihood and he depends on the revenue from it to support his family because of a medical disability and is unable to work (I know a case like this, which is why I state it)

The net operating revenue from the forum could, realistically, have probably either covered the cost of the lawsuit, or covered the majority of it, making it post a slight net loss for the year (which could easily have been made up from previous years).

So based on that, since this is about community, instead of having the community pay for the lawsuit so the site posts a net profit for that year, why not start a charity at a local hospital for sick children and tell the forum to donate there to show support? Have a real impact on some lives, instead of lining the bank account.

Alternatively, since the community donated a crap-load of money towards the lawsuit, why not take 50%, 75%, heck, even 100% of the proceeds from the sale of the site and start a yearly charity at a local GA hospital for sick children (e.g., like corvetteforum.com does with St. Judes). Say 'Hey guys; thanks for the support in the lawsuit. I can no longer run FFRCars due to other commitments, but to thank the community I'm hoping to start a yearly donation program at X hospital for sick children. Here's the first donation - 100% proceeds from the sale of the site; hopefully you guys contribute this year, and all future years to this charity to help the children'.

That's real community imho - not asking for money from members whom you know will give it (some of whom, based on the posts about lost jobs and hard times, will still dig deep to help out) just to post a net profit for the year.

I guess you missed the fact that the Cobra community (real, replica,otherwise) as a whole (not just one forum,but all forums and members and kit car manufacturers who wish to participate) does this once a year with Cystic Fibrosis.It does not matter what Bill P does or does not do, he is out of the picture and has his own family issues to deal with (which may have been one of the reasons he sold). Honestly, to keep bringing him in to this and rehashing the past does nothing for the future of the Cobra community. It happened, this site happened, let's all move on and make a successful web forum.


Bill S.

PS: Now, how about some chocolate chip cookies :D

[davidct]

I personaly think its great a fresh start, and Dave please no private section look at what that turned in to, a disgrace would not even come close to discribing it.

I liked the Private sections, open discussions, bantering, just plain fun. If it was offending it could be avoided, but I have to say, that is where I always went first when logging in the old site. Just my $.02.
David

[oldguy668]

I think that comments about what happened with or in ffcars should be made there. This is a new site with no baggage and I'd really like to let what happened at ffcars stay in ffcars.

[speedking]

Speedking, you do realize that most of the mods on FFCars are mods here...
Wonderful.

[Darren]

Speedking, also I think all of the mods have either owned or built one or more FFRs. Not sure what you have against the mods.

[Big-Foot]

:confused: Did someone mention Chocolate Chip Cookies??? :confused:

;):D;)

[Dave Smith]

The charter of this site is community NOT Factory Five Racing. Our company will be fine either way, but the community can be hurt when things like forums change hands in some ways. CHARITY has defined the FFR community. I could tell you literally 100's of stories of selflessness and fellowship and I dont know 10 percent of them. My daughter and kids with CF have benefitted tremendously from the money raised (all of which goes 100% to the charity) for Cystic Fibrosis. In big ways and small, the FFR community is already defined by charity. This forum will return to community with low ad rates to ENCOURAGE the guys who innovate and reward them with access to the community. I wont speak for Bill, but I will state clearly that this forum has a charter that is simply to build the community. Charity is assumed and already an installed part of a really good group of people because they are a really good group of people.

DAve Smith
FFR001

[Rob J]

So, is speedking our first troll???

[Cameron Autosports]

I think this is a great idea. We can still enjoy the FFCars Forum. I'm looking forward to seeing the same faces here.

[slaga]

So, is speedking our first troll???
Meat, reincarnate.

[efnfast]

I guess you missed the fact that the Cobra community (real, replica,otherwise) as a whole (not just one forum,but all forums and members and kit car manufacturers who wish to participate) does this once a year with Cystic Fibrosis.It does not matter what Bill P does or does not do, he is out of the picture and has his own family issues to deal with (which may have been one of the reasons he sold). Honestly, to keep bringing him in to this and rehashing the past does nothing for the future of the Cobra community. It happened, this site happened, let's all move on and make a successful web forum.


Bill S.

PS: Now, how about some chocolate chip cookies :D

Do you have a link to the information about the charity event? That's actually the first time I've heard of it (I guess my head's been in the sand, lol!) and would like to learn more for this year about it.

Also, cookies...gimmie gimmie gimmie :D

[2savage]

Huh?

I suppose that could be targeting me... I'm a moderator on ffcars and don't currently own an FFR. But I've built 6 of them....
Not really concerned about Post Count.. More concerned about post quality and usefulness..

Randy, you're cool, don't sweat it. The moderators at FFCARS.COM have done an excellent job to keep the peace, keep the politics down and keep distructive forces away. Dave Smith would do well to bring you all on board. Hey, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. And, as for not owning an FFR, I am carless at the moment but after building two and winning Targa Newfoundland with one of them I think I can slide for a while.

Great to see all the old handles showing up. As Bill (Mr Mustang) said, lets just get on with whatever. Lifes too short.

[ratdog]

Were are the cookies!!!

[mikeinatlanta]

In all honesty, I'd say the mods of ffcars.com are the best of what that site has to offer. I love you guys...Can I have your Bud Light?

[Don Wright]

As a vendor for many years on FFCars, it was very important to me that the forum ran well and offered a safe haven for my meager advertising dollars. From my perspective, everyone involved did a banner job of directing that forum through the years. I gave some when the call went out for help against the suit - not so much as to help Bill or the forum, but to make my small statement that the community was worth protecting from being stamped out - that community is safer now and exists regardless of where we might call home. As we've seen overseas lately, the net is powerful - but a sense of belonging and community is more powerful still. I'd love to see this place, this community, grow and add even more depth and value to our lives. It's been a big part of mine so far.

All the best, Don

[Jeff Kleiner]

Do you have a link to the information about the charity event? That's actually the first time I've heard of it (I guess my head's been in the sand, lol!) and would like to learn more for this year about it.

Also, cookies...gimmie gimmie gimmie :D

http://www.londoncobrashow.com/

The event has existed in various names and forms since 2001. Proceeds go to the Cystic Fibrosis Foundation. It all began with chocolate chip cookies. Mr. Peirce has been one of the event's benefactors over the years. Keep your head up Alex! ;)

Jeff

[Hoosier]

So, is speedking our first troll???

He is probably cobrabob99 who has some sort of issue with 2FAST4U. He was banned on the other site for antagonizing Bill.

[frankeeski]

:confused: Did someone mention Chocolate Chip Cookies??? :confused:

;):D;)

I can give you my recipe for Potato Pancakes. Mmm, comfort food.

[Big-Foot]

I can give you my recipe for Potato Pancakes. Mmm, comfort food.

Oh YES!!!!

I love them steamin' hot with a pad of butter and Maple Syrup...

Is it time for breakfast again???

((Drool))

[Rob J]

He is probably cobrabob99 who has some sort of issue with 2FAST4U. He was banned on the other site for antagonizing Bill.

Funny, I was thinking that same thing.

It's always a handful of people who have to cause the grief.

[AZJoker]

I think this will be a good thing. Makes sense........new owners of the other site....losing site or never having any in the first place?

What writing is on the wall. Smart move Mr. Smith.

[The Stig]

I for one am VERY Happy they did it. Personally for me with all the money that got donated to the lawsuit, then the sell out, I've got a bad taste left in my mouth. REAL BAD.

I've always believe that everyone has their own mind, and their own oppinion about things that happen in life.

But in regard to Bill Pierce and the FFCars forum, I don't really think it's fair to throw everything that he endured into a single pile.

For years, he did everything that he could, to make sure that the forum was alive and available to anyone interested in Factory Five related info. I would have to think that the majority of "members" are still not paying members. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Bill busted his butt to keep things going, even for those who weren't helping to support it.

Then Carol ****** comes along, and thinks that anyone who takes part in the Cobra Replica hobby should be sued. He set his sights on Bill and the "ffcobra" forum. He was already after Factory Five, trying to rape them as well.

In any event, Bill carried the cost of attorneys needed to defend himself against ******'s thugs, (I mean attorneys), for as long as he could before asking for help from the forum members.

He could have just let it fold and walk away with little impact to himself, but he went the extra mile(s) to make sure the the forum remained a viable source, and stayed in tact going forward.



Through all of this, and Because all of this, his personal life took a large hit. And I'm wondering how many of us would not have made the same decision that he was faced with?
Keep pouring all of his time and energy into maintaining the forum?
Close the forum?
Sell the forum to a company that will keep it available for the members?
I think that given the circumstances, he made the choice that was right for him. I also feel that he did a hell of a great job trying to keep this community of people and Factory Five Info Resource together.

Do I feel that my money was spent badly by trying to help him out? No, not in the least. He proved himself over and over, to be one of the truly good people of the forum.

I'd do it again if he needed it.


Now, with all that being said, I am very glad to be a part of this new forum. I think the one thing that was missing from the ffcars forum, was open participation from Factory Five. Now we'll have that as well.

Thanks Bill Pierce for all that you did for us, and Thank Dave Smith for what you're setting out to do for us to keep this going well into the future.

[geoffav]

I personaly think its great a fresh start, and Dave please no private section look at what that turned in to, a disgrace would not even come close to discribing it.

I really like a Pub type place but it would be hard to have it and shield those with no interest in it.



The worst thing about the old FFcars is the mods. There are mods there that don't even own a FFR, just trying to get the post count up!

Actually the Mods over there are awesome, especially the staff in the 33 section. :rolleyes: :D

[Mike_R]

I'm just here for the cookies. So gimmie one!

[AZJoker]

I never heard of any issues with the mods on the other site. They kept things in line so we wouldnt end up hating each other. :)

[jabm]

I've always believe that everyone has their own mind, and their own oppinion about things that happen in life.

But in regard to Bill Pierce and the FFCars forum, I don't really think it's fair to throw everything that he endured into a single pile.

For years, he did everything that he could, to make sure that the forum was alive and available to anyone interested in Factory Five related info. I would have to think that the majority of "members" are still not paying members. Maybe I'm wrong, but I doubt it. Bill busted his butt to keep things going, even for those who weren't helping to support it.

Then Carol ****** comes along, and thinks that anyone who takes part in the Cobra Replica hobby should be sued. He set his sights on Bill and the "ffcobra" forum. He was already after Factory Five, trying to rape them as well.

In any event, Bill carried the cost of attorneys needed to defend himself against ******'s thugs, (I mean attorneys), for as long as he could before asking for help from the forum members.

He could have just let it fold and walk away with little impact to himself, but he went the extra mile(s) to make sure the the forum remained a viable source, and stayed in tact going forward.



Through all of this, and Because all of this, his personal life took a large hit. And I'm wondering how many of us would not have made the same decision that he was faced with?
Keep pouring all of his time and energy into maintaining the forum?
Close the forum?
Sell the forum to a company that will keep it available for the members?
I think that given the circumstances, he made the choice that was right for him. I also feel that he did a hell of a great job trying to keep this community of people and Factory Five Info Resource together.

Do I feel that my money was spent badly by trying to help him out? No, not in the least. He proved himself over and over, to be one of the truly good people of the forum.

I'd do it again if he needed it.


Now, with all that being said, I am very glad to be a part of this new forum. I think the one thing that was missing from the ffcars forum, was open participation from Factory Five. Now we'll have that as well.

Thanks Bill Pierce for all that you did for us, and Thank Dave Smith for what you're setting out to do for us to keep this going well into the future.

Well said!

[tim-in-oakton]

Any mod that volunteers for the headaches of moderating this group of lunatics like us without currently owning an FFR deserves applause!
And X2 on the supporting members area - it's a good idea and a place where "boys can be boys". Optional entertainment at it's best!
timm

[Zulu]

Well said Stig and agree whole heartedly..... for many years Bill did everything without $$ help...

Loudest noise seems to be from newer guys who dont know long history.....

[accobra66]

Well, we all knew it would not take long for all of this B.S. to start. If you like the other forum more, then go there. Some will view both, some won't. To each his own.

I think this is going to be the sticky part for FFR to moderate. This type of B.S. In the past they have been able to sit back and keep a neutral stance as a sort of 3rd party. Even thought the "moderators" on this site are not employed by FFR (as far as I know...not making accusations, just no assumptions), I think FFR will still be lumped into social or political stances that require moderators to govern and in the end the site is owned by FFR. All I am saying is it may not be as "clean" as it was for FFR in the past. Either way, they will survive due to those "level minded" of their customers. I think this is a great move, a change was needed clearly IMO with the change of events. I look forward to reasonable advertising rates for the vendors (3rd party) that have helped to make FFR what it has become (I am not one of those, just saying).

[frankeeski]

Besides the cookies and potato pancakes, the whole "why" or "why not" has many layers and I don't think any of us as members can really know the answers because we are not going to get all of the parties involved to do a conference call with us. It is interesting though to see familiar names here on this forum that have animatedly expressed that they would never become members here. Welcome guys.