Is it FASTER than a Yugo?

[thebeerbaron]

Let me start off by saying that I do not think that a car can or should be judged by its power-to-weight ratio, especially something like the 818. Since there are a number of discussions on just this subject, I thought it would be a good idea to consolidate a lot of the numbers being thrown around into one easy-to-understand graph.

Since I can't embed HTML, here is that graph (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AqRrm-7eUe-YdGgwV01xYTlvbm9DVDJ1SkhncDhFSHc&hl=en&authkey=CIKkl6gI#gid=1)

I have tested the link as best I can, if it does not work or stops working, please let me know.

This is one of those fancy Google Analytics graphs, hopefully you can tweak the data into something you'd like to see. I hope everyone can view and manipulate it simultaneously without disturbing others views.

It's just data. I took the cars mostly from the Top Gear Hot Lap record list. If there's something you'd like to see, please post the car name, the weight, the hp, and the torque in this thread and I'll try to add it. I may go back and add in the lap times, if people think that would be nice.

Since people are already worried about keeping up with the Jonses, I've included three iterations of the 818: one with stock 2002 WRX power, one with a Cobb tune and minor modifications, and one with serious modifications. If any of you Subaru folk would like to contribute your particular engine stats, I would be happy to roll them in here. Obviously no one knows exactly what changes will happen as Jim repackages the motor for the car, so these are guesses at best.

After careful analysis of the available information, I feel I have conclusively determined that the 818 will be faster than a (stock) Yugo.

[BrandonDrums]

oOOh, I like this! nice work

[Magnus]

According to my calculations, if I plug in the U.S.S. George H.W. Bush air craft carrier, which displaces 100,000tons and puts out 260,000hp, it should be possible to beat both the Yugo and 818 in straight-line acceleration. With sticky tires, the carrier might also corner better than the Yugo although comparison will be difficult until you can put both on the same 6-mile-diameter skid pad.

[thebeerbaron]

According to my calculations, if I plug in the U.S.S. George H.W. Bush air craft carrier, which displaces 100,000tons and puts out 260,000hp, it should be possible to beat both the Yugo and 818 in straight-line acceleration. With sticky tires, the carrier might also corner better than the Yugo although comparison will be difficult until you can put both on the same 6-mile-diameter skid pad.

You sir, have made my evening. I think I scared my neighbors I laughed so hard.





edit - I contemplated adding USS GHWB to the graph, but it would throw the scales off to such a degree I'm not going to do it. But kudos anyhow.

[Olimk2]

What kind of Yugo? This one is a 2.0l 4wd turbo beast!! Lancia delta integrale engine/trans...


1505

[thebeerbaron]

Since there are so many options to the graph, let me suggest that a very interesting way to look at the data is:

X: lb/lb-ft
Y: lb/hp
Color: unique
Size: weight

In this case, points closer to the origin are "better".

I updated the data to include the Power Lap times and edited the cars a bit to match what was tested. Have fun.

[Slaughter]

It might win .... but if the YUGO has red break calipers or HID headlights, its game over - the Yugo would win with a 0-60 time of 2 sec.

[Gollum]

I honestly think even the yugo is throwing the scale off a bit ;-)

Nice thread though, and wonderful bench racing work, at it's finest. :-D

Sure beats other ways biding time until we get more news from FFR. Overall this forum makes great breaks between actually working on my cars, and actually driving them.

[thebeerbaron]

I honestly think even the yugo is throwing the scale off a bit ;-)

The Yugo and that damn Bugatti.

Incidentally

X: Lap Time
Y: power (either lb/lb-ft or lb/hp)
Color: unique
Size: anything

is very telling.

[Gun Bunny]

Out of curiosity, have you contemplated throwing other FFR products on there? An LS7 GTM would be a sight to behold I think.

[thebeerbaron]

I would be happy to do that, can you post weight, HP, and torque figures for a couple cars here? And a link to where you found it, if you dot mind.

[Niburu]

also for the price of an 818 build, one could also build a LS-series powered Miata
quite the conundrum

[Magnus]

You sir, have made my evening. I think I scared my neighbors I laughed so hard.

edit - I contemplated adding USS GHWB to the graph, but it would throw the scales off to such a degree I'm not going to do it. But kudos anyhow.

That's where log scales might come in handy.

[Gollum]

also for the price of an 818 build, one could also build a LS-series powered Miata
quite the conundrum

Oh I can think of a LOT of cars I could buy and perform an engine swap in and have comparable power/weight ratios and still be fairly light. What the 818 will offer is it's chassis, and if FFR does their job (which I have no doubt they will), a fine suspension setup.

Most production cars take not just a lot of work, but careful research to get them to feel crisp on a track and to respond the way you want it to, especially when considering cheap chassis that are a dime a dozen. A full tube framed chassis like the 818 will have all the right tools out of the box to get it feeling good on a track. What I mean is, I can go throw some sticky 275's on my daily driver and pull 1G on the skidpad, but that doesn't mean I'll be able to reasonable reach those cornering speeds on a track. A car needs to be predictable and give you confidence on a track so you can drive it at the limit. That's what hard to tune into a car, even a miata. Though it is a good base, no doubt.

But heck, for 15k I could really finish off my Z right, and have 400+hp, weight around 2100, and have huge sticky tires with a killer suspension setup. But I'd still have a 30+ year old chassis. I could add a complex cage that ties in the strut towers to fix the flexibility, but at that point I'm halfway to having a tube chassis....

[Magnus]

But seriously, I agree the graph that has X:hot lap time and Y:lb/hp is the most telling. The lower the lbs/hp, the faster the lap, regardless of absolute hp in a given car. Clearly, 500hp (Ariel) is more than 1001hp (Veyron) when numbers translate to performance.

Sadly, considering the weight, it also means that I need about 920hp in my FFR Roadster to match the Ariel for hot laps.

As a point of referrence, the GHWB would need 83,333,333hp to keep up with the Ariel.

[Gun Bunny]

Also keep in mind that the displacement on the GHWB is only a fraction of its overall weight.

And the performance apex touted by FFR (NA) is with an LS7 505 HP, 470 lbs of twist, in a platform weighing 2,350 lbs.

[3kcarbon]

The Yugo is coming back on the market. There will be a 4 seater called the Wego and a mininvan called Weallgo. No word as to the power to weight ratio.

[thebeerbaron]

That's where log scales might come in handy.

You can do log scale on these graphs, just choose it from the pull-down menu on each axis above/to the right of the pull-down to select the variable. I don't find them very helpful.


But seriously, I agree the graph that has X:hot lap time and Y:lb/hp is the most telling. The lower the lbs/hp, the faster the lap, regardless of absolute hp in a given car. Clearly, 500hp (Ariel) is more than 1001hp (Veyron) when numbers translate to performance.

Sadly, considering the weight, it also means that I need about 920hp in my FFR Roadster to match the Ariel for hot laps.

As a point of referrence, the GHWB would need 83,333,333hp to keep up with the Ariel.

My unstated comment is that there is not a direct relationship between lbs/hp or lbs/ft-lb and lap time. The Atom, Bugatti, and Koenigsegg all have similar lbs/ft-lbs, yet their lap times are not terribly closely coupled. The GT2, GT-R, 458, and Murcielago make a nice group, but should be joined by the Z06, whose lap time is way out in right field.

In other words, bench racing based on any power/weight ratio is mental onanism. IMHO.


also for the price of an 818 build, one could also build a LS-series powered Miata
quite the conundrum

That was actually a path I was considering before committing to the 818. It just seemed like far too much custom work, including fabrication I can't do myself. And then you're still stuck with what is honestly a floppy chassis, no matter how much you try.

[thebeerbaron]

Also keep in mind that the displacement on the GHWB is only a fraction of its overall weight.

And the performance apex touted by FFR (NA) is with an LS7 505 HP, 470 lbs of twist, in a platform weighing 2,350 lbs.

In searching to see whether you meant GTM or Roadster or Coupe, I found a C&D article that's a bit old, but quotes similar numbers, excepting weight. C&D says 2496, is 2350 for the new version? I've put it in as 2496 but will happily revise.

[Gun Bunny]

In other words, bench racing based on any power/weight ratio is mental onanism. IMHO.

A) Quote of the week.

B) The point of this entire thread :D

And 2,350 is from FFR's website, and might be for an LS1. The LS7 obviously weighs a bit more, and the C&D test unit may have had a few extras thrown on it.

[thebeerbaron]

B) The point of this entire thread :D


Glad somebody is paying attention. I'll leave the GTM in there as "C&D 2007" or whatever it is, unless someone has a strong objection.

[spaceywilly]

I made a copy of your spreadsheet and added some different cars. This one is editable so anyone can play around with it. Thanks for setting it up!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtzNeFQCacazdEo2R2FNNFBZZmQxcDU3V2lHNnBfN nc&hl=en_US

[thebeerbaron]

cool beans

[BipDBo]

According to my calculations, if I plug in the U.S.S. George H.W. Bush air craft carrier, which displaces 100,000tons and puts out 260,000hp, it should be possible to beat both the Yugo and 818 in straight-line acceleration. With sticky tires, the carrier might also corner better than the Yugo although comparison will be difficult until you can put both on the same 6-mile-diameter skid pad.

Did you forget to convert tons to pounds? With those numbers, I get 769 #/hp.