Is it FASTER than a Corvette???

[mn_vette]

As far as the american sports car goes, the Corvette is the benchmark for a lot of people. Its the premier sports car that is most commonly seen. All of those honda kids feel pretty good if they can beat a stock Corvette. With the nicer weather I have seen a bunch of the new Grand Sport Corvettes out and about.

So now here's the question.....If I pull up to one at the stop light can the 818 take it?

According to GM's website the GS Corvette will go 0-60 in 3.95 Sec. Motortrend says the quarter mile is 12.2@117mph.

Dave says that this car is going to be fast, simply because its a Factory 5 and it has to be to make it out the door. I guess I've defined what I consider fast. Can the 818 make this with the stock WRX donor, or are we going to have to sink some cash to make it faster.

Accroding to this link that Crackedcornish put out there (http://www.060calculator.com/ ) the 818 will do 0-60 in 3.95 Seconds.

And with the typical online quarter mile calculators the 818 will pull off a much slower quarter mile in stock form. But these are just calculators, obviously it will come down to traction and driver for the 0-60, but a quick pull on the highway with a Corvette doesn't look good with out some go fast goodies.

Just some random thoughts from a guy who knows first hand that there is always someone faster out there........

[Slaughter]

It MIGHT not be faster, but it WILL have:

Better handling
Better fuel Eco
Cheaper in every regard
Better styling (my opinion)
Unique

As to that I say: "oh no! your Vette is ~.3 seconds faster then me!" As I pass him at the gas station with an extra $52k (67k - 15k [Canadian dollars]) in my pocket.

That being said .... I know of some STI owners who are pushing down about 500 WHP with about 3k in upgrades.

[thebeerbaron]

Your 0-60 calculator says a 2011 Z06 will do 0-60 in 3.3 seconds (505hp, 3175lbs).

Fixing the 818 weight at 1800lbs, it would require 287hp to reach that number, according to your calculator.

That's apples-to-apples in my eye.

On a 2002 WRX, Cobb Tuning provides a "Stage 2" map that will net 285hp, according to their calculations. All that is necessary is a turbo-back exhaust, which the 818 will likely have. It also requires 93 octane, but I think the WRX needs that anyhow.

So Corvette territory is just a tune away and only Jim and Dave know if we're going to need a custom tune to get this thing running.

I couldn't give a rats tukus about quarter miles, but I will be very interested to see how this thing stacks up against the big boys on the track. I don't think there will be much that can match it for dollar/lap-second. With WRX consumables being fairly inexpensive, I think that that will be a big win too.

[StatGSR]

Better fuel Eco


um, i wouldn't count on that one, i will guess it will be "comparable", subaru engines are not that great when it comes to fuel mileage, but then again the 2WD and lighter weight should help some, just not sure if it will be better. The Corvettes get fantastic fuel mileage for what they are.

http://www.corvetteblog.com/archives/corvette-news-corvette-c6-fuel-economy-test.html

[crackedcornish]

I guess it's a good thing one of those Outfront Motorsports 900hp H6's won't fit in a 818 then, or you'd be to 60mph in 1.4 seconds....if the G's didn't make you blackout first :o

[readymix]

It MIGHT not be faster, but it WILL have:

Better handling
Better fuel Eco
Cheaper in every regard
Better styling (my opinion)
Unique

As to that I say: "oh no! your Vette is ~.3 seconds faster then me!" As I pass him at the gas station with an extra $52k (67k - 15k [Canadian dollars]) in my pocket.

That being said .... I know of some STI owners who are pushing down about 500 WHP with about 3k in upgrades.

500WHP? On what dyno? And don't say Crawford Performance's dyno. You aren't (or shouldn't be) pushing 500whp (600 crank on a Mustang Dyno or DD) without proper internals. The stock STi pistons will NOT put up with that power for very long. And any turbo that is going to put you in that range of power is going to run over 1200 bucks for snail alone. Add in those pistons (450.00+ for a set). Add in the fuel injectors as the stockers aren't up to the task. You're going to need >900cc to get to the 500 mark. Fuel pump + injectors, you're looking at well over 500 bucks there. The stock intercooler isn't going to play well with the new turbo...i mean, seriously, the list goes on. I built my car for 500whp. I don't even want to begin to go into what was involved financially. The car was in my garage for about 7 months while I gutted the engine bay and assembled the new block in my kitchen (much to the chagrin of my fiance).

300 whp or more is going to put you into Vette Stomping territory. At least a stock one. And with the right tune, maybe running e85, a stock 2.5L WRX TD04 setup...again, with a good tune, can nail down 280whp without issue. Remember, the car is 1800lbs. You don't have to make much power to match the power to weight ratios of some serious sports cars with this thing.

[PhyrraM]

Can the Corvette achieve those numbers on driver skill alone? Or do those numbers rely on the traction/launch control?

3100lbs? Impressive. I've been out of the Corvette loop since they climbed over $50,000 for an average one.

[BrandonDrums]

um, i wouldn't count on that one, i will guess it will be "comparable", subaru engines are not that great when it comes to fuel mileage, but then again the 2WD and lighter weight should help some, just not sure if it will be better. The Corvettes get fantastic fuel mileage for what they are.

http://www.corvetteblog.com/archives/corvette-news-corvette-c6-fuel-economy-test.html

Yeah, I'm pretty sure my wagon gets much worse gas mileage than a vette. I'm getting 18 in the city although I do see 25/26 on the highway.

I think there's more to look at in straight-line performance than just power to weight here. The vette gets it's gas mileage (and straight line accelleration) because it has some seriously tall gear ratios. I think the Z06 hits 60 in first gear. However, it's still front-engined and just a tinnny bit nose-heavy. The 818 will have lower slung power closer to the rear wheels to I think it will be less tricky to get off the line and more apt to getting the power down out of the corners.

I'd think on a real-world comparison, an equal driver will match the corvette's times in an 818 with just the stock 2.0 putting out 230hp, 9 times out of 10 tries on say, VIR's patriot course or similar. It's that last 10% of driver skill and driving on the edge that might require more hp for the 818 to compete or courses with more high-speed sections.

[Cooluser23]

As a Fiero owner, and MINI Cooper, and Mazda Miata enthusiast, I couldn't care less about straight line power. - i.e.: The Corvette.

I want something that sticks like glue in the twisties/corners and puts a grin on my face each time I drive it. (It would be fun if I can slide the tail out, if I provoke it, like on a Miata, but Mazda is a genius at desigin the Miata handling. - See Top Gear: Richard Hammond Mazda Mx-5 (Miata) review "beati-dogu" on Youtube.

The styling should be exotic and "mid-engine" looking. (No crazy long hoods with forward facing scoops on them)

[mn_vette]

Its amusing to see that people are already defending this car and we haven't even seen it in go-cart form yet. Yes, the Corvette would cost more and be more comon place, but loosing is loosing. The car may or may not handle better in the curves, that is still to be seen.

I started thos post for those that are looking to keep up with the Joneses, well guess what, the Jones's car is pretty darn fast out of the box. To pass them you are going to need some upgrades to the WRX engine setup, so start planning now.

[thebeerbaron]

I started thos post for those that are looking to keep up with the Joneses, well guess what, the Jones's car is pretty darn fast out of the box. To pass them you are going to need some upgrades to the WRX engine setup, so start planning now.

My hypothesis, outlined above, is that these "upgrades" will be a natural part of the 818 process.

Bench racing is fun and all, but it's still bench racing. There are plenty of fast, expensive cars that have been passed by a lowly beater on the track, and vice versa. It's all about the driver.

If you find it funny that people are already "defending" this car, how do you feel that people are already "attacking" this car by listing cars that are faster?

[PhyrraM]

What do a $50,000+ mass produced sports car from a major manufacture and a $15,000 home assembled, minimalistic, glorified go-cart have in common to warrent the compairision in the first place?

They are not even on the same map to me. Can somebody who is honestly sitting on that type of fence enlighten me as to what I'm missing here?

I think the GTM seems a more logical comparision to the Vette than the 818. Wheelbase, weight, power delivery, emenities, fit and finish, vehicle dynamics all put the 818 in a very differt class. At least in my eyes.

[readymix]

Its amusing to see that people are already defending this car and we haven't even seen it in go-cart form yet. Yes, the Corvette would cost more and be more comon place, but loosing is loosing. The car may or may not handle better in the curves, that is still to be seen.

I started thos post for those that are looking to keep up with the Joneses, well guess what, the Jones's car is pretty darn fast out of the box. To pass them you are going to need some upgrades to the WRX engine setup, so start planning now.

If you are considering the 818 as a car for drag racing against other like-minded boneheads in Corvettes, you've picked the wrong platform. If beating or "loosing" to vette owners is something you are concerned about, again, pick a different platform. If you think the Corvette is the end all for the Joneses, then you need to get out more. If I had unlimited funds, the last thing I'd even bother looking at would be a Corvette.

The 818, like any extra-light weight, mid engine car, is a platform suited for track use. And not drag race tracks. The weight is centered over the car, and it's rear driven. Caveman tard-bashing of the long flat pedal isn't going to go over well as the front end is going to be light and likely all over the place. If you want a dedicated drag race car, or you have some sort of psychological condition that makes you think that 'loosing' is something you can't deal with, then you should likely check on a different platform.

[mn_vette]

If you are considering the 818 as a car for drag racing against other like-minded boneheads in Corvettes, you've picked the wrong platform. If beating or "loosing" to vette owners is something you are concerned about, again, pick a different platform. If you think the Corvette is the end all for the Joneses, then you need to get out more. If I had unlimited funds, the last thing I'd even bother looking at would be a Corvette.

The 818, like any extra-light weight, mid engine car, is a platform suited for track use. And not drag race tracks. The weight is centered over the car, and it's rear driven. Caveman tard-bashing of the long flat pedal isn't going to go over well as the front end is going to be light and likely all over the place. If you want a dedicated drag race car, or you have some sort of psychological condition that makes you think that 'loosing' is something you can't deal with, then you should likely check on a different platform.

Exactly the response I was looking for. Lets put some facts together and someone who thinks they are the end all of knowledge needs to throw out insults. This is a Factory Five and it is going to be used for anything a sports car is used for, drag strip, auto X, track duty, cruising around. The 818 should fit the bill just as well as any other Factory Five car in the past. There are certain standards that are used to test cars, 0-60 and quarter mile are two of them. I don't really have any data to guess what kind of G's this car can produce.

I was not trying to say that some should look at a corvette as an alternative to the 818. I would never buy a new corvette. But it is alot more likely to pull up next to you at a stop light than an Astin Martin DB9.

Perhaps someone would like to swing the conversation over to what it would take to get the power to surpass those levels.

[Magnus]

Adding power makes you faster on the straights. Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere.
--Colin Chapman

[thebeerbaron]

Perhaps someone would like to swing the conversation over to what it would take to get the power to surpass those levels.

Cobb Tuning has a lot of maps available on their website along with a list of what power they produce and what mods are necessary to use those maps. That would be a great place to start collecting data.

(there are plenty of other tuners out there, but Cobb is what I have, so that's why I keep referring to them)

[mn_vette]

Cobb Tuning has a lot of maps available on their website along with a list of what power they produce and what mods are necessary to use those maps. That would be a great place to start collecting data.

(there are plenty of other tuners out there, but Cobb is what I have, so that's why I keep referring to them)

It looks like a Cobb Stage 2 with no Cats might do the trick nicely, depending on our exhaust setup. 54rwhp is a nice bump up.

http://www.cobbtuning.com/products/?id=2304

[LifeIsOnTheWire]

Exactly the response I was looking for.

so you admit your intention was to troll the forums, and get a reaction out of people?

your question didnt get a very warm reception, because it makes you look like a troll, or a moron...

its a car, build it with as much power as you can afford to, and it will beat anything you like.

[Cooluser23]

Has anyone contacted Cobb tuning about the FFR 818 yet? It would be great if they get on the ball early, and offer options to Factory Five right out of the gate when the car is ready to launch. :)

[bbjones121]

um, i wouldn't count on that one, i will guess it will be "comparable", subaru engines are not that great when it comes to fuel mileage, but then again the 2WD and lighter weight should help some, just not sure if it will be better. The Corvettes get fantastic fuel mileage for what they are.

http://www.corvetteblog.com/archives/corvette-news-corvette-c6-fuel-economy-test.html

I don't fully agree. I have a 2.5l 500hp Subaru and I can get close to 30mpg if I don't push it on highway. You may get mid 20's on the highway in a vette?, but, I would think fuel economy would be significantly better in city with a turbo subaru.

[mn_vette]

so you admit your intention was to troll the forums, and get a reaction out of people?

your question didnt get a very warm reception, because it makes you look like a troll, or a moron...

its a car, build it with as much power as you can afford to, and it will beat anything you like.

Obviously you didn't get the sarcasm that was intended.

I'll say it one more time, the goal of the post was to show people how fast the modern production car really is and to try to find out what we would have to do to the 818 to keep up with it.

[bbjones121]

300 whp or more is going to put you into Vette Stomping territory. At least a stock one. And with the right tune, maybe running e85, a stock 2.5L WRX TD04 setup...again, with a good tune, can nail down 280whp without issue. Remember, the car is 1800lbs. You don't have to make much power to match the power to weight ratios of some serious sports cars with this thing.

2005 Stock block 2.5 Subaru legacy here with 18g Zilla, e85 at 5,280+ft elevation puts down 321whp on a dynadynamics dyno with less than $4k invested. It is daily driver with no signs of damage or pending issues after 40k miles. Who knows, that could change quickly, but.... It runs a faster quarter mile than the 2009 z06. That is a subaru legacy gt (4 door sedan) beating a corvette z06 (a tuned sports car). I think this same powerplant or even a slightly less powerful one in a 1800lb car would destroy a corvette, no matter what model you try to argue with.

I don't know...I would never be worried about not showing up a corvette(z06 or even a zr1) with a mildly tuned Subaru 2.5l in a 1800lb car. I show them up all the time in my family sedan driving into the mountains (not a zr1, that is FI also).

[mn_vette]

2005 Stock block 2.5 Subaru legacy here with 18g Zilla, e85 at 5,280+ft elevation puts down 321whp on a dynadynamics dyno with less than $4k invested. It is daily driver with no signs of damage or pending issues after 40k miles. Who knows, that could change quickly, but.... It runs a faster quarter mile than the 2009 z06. That is a subaru legacy gt (4 door sedan) beating a corvette z06 (a tuned sports car). I think this same powerplant or even a slightly less powerful one in a 1800lb car would destroy a corvette, no matter what model you try to argue with.

What were you getting in the quarter?

[thebeerbaron]

I'll say it one more time, the goal of the post was to show people how fast the modern production car really is and to try to find out what we would have to do to the 818 to keep up with it.

But let's define "modern production car" here. There are plenty of faster "production" cars than a Corvette. But how many of those cost $15k? None. You want to compare production cars to the 818, look at the 818 vs the $15k production car. No contest.

If people have the money to buy a (insert expensive car here) and just want a fast car, they will buy that car. If people have the money to buy a (insert expensive car here) but want something different, or something they can customize, or something they build themselves, they will buy the 818. If people don't have the money to buy the (insert expensive car here), but do have enough to buy an 818, they will buy the 818.

So I see the 818 and (insert expensive car here) two different animals that are in no way comparable.

If you want to do a comparison, try finding used cars in the $15k range and comparing the 818 to that.*

(edit) *or other do-it-yourself / custom cars, for that category of purchaser

[Niburu]

Obviously you didn't get the sarcasm that was intended.

I'll say it one more time, the goal of the post was to show people how fast the modern production car really is and to try to find out what we would have to do to the 818 to keep up with it.

try using italics next time you wanna be sarcastic, there is no other way we would know that other than being mindreaders through our computer screens

[bbjones121]

12.7-12.9sec
be sure you understand what 5800 ft elevation does to your performance before making a remark about a z06's quarter mile.

[mn_vette]

But let's define "modern production car" here. There are plenty of faster "production" cars than a Corvette. But how many of those cost $15k? None. You want to compare production cars to the 818, look at the 818 vs the $15k production car. No contest.

If people have the money to buy a (insert expensive car here) and just want a fast car, they will buy that car. If people have the money to buy a (insert expensive car here) but want something different, or something they can customize, or something they build themselves, they will buy the 818. If people don't have the money to buy the (insert expensive car here), but do have enough to buy an 818, they will buy the 818.

So I see the 818 and (insert expensive car here) two different animals that are in no way comparable.

If you want to do a comparison, try finding used cars in the $15k range and comparing the 818 to that.*

(edit) *or other do-it-yourself / custom cars, for that category of purchaser

I agree that these are two different types of cars. The corvette was chosen as a comparison because it is a common one that people see all the time.

[thebeerbaron]

I'll do some research and graphing when I get home tonight so hopefully we can express this once and get it over with.

[mn_vette]

There is rapidly growing a list of excellent inside jokes with this car. Eye Twitch, I told you so song, A whole list of Topless jokes that cant be printed here...

275-325+ hp in an 1800 lb car with a FFR rigid chassis, rockin 4-corner Konis, mid-engine layout, and good lines... Designed with the pure intent of enabling guys with skills to beat guys with wallets.

I dont want to eat, I cant sleep, and all I want to do is drop the hammer on this car and drive around Porsches.

Here is a quote from Dave Smith. The design goal seems to be a car that will compete, no matter what the car is up against, Porshes, corvettes, mustangs, or what ever, regardless of the price for the car.

[PhyrraM]

Compete where? And in what arena?

I'm hoping it's at the autocross, road course, weekend getaway, and the Sunday blast up a mountain road.

I could care less about the dragstrip, car show, burnout contest, or the Country Club snobhouse conversation.

[LifeIsOnTheWire]

12.7-12.9sec
be sure you understand what 5800 ft elevation does to your performance before making a remark about a z06's quarter mile.

are Z06's really doing that slow at 5800ft elevation?

at my elevation, they are running 11.9 to 12.2 completely stock. and can get into the low 11's with only a change of tires.

[mn_vette]

Compete where? And in what arena?

I'm hoping it's at the autocross, road course, weekend getaway, and the Sunday blast up a mountain road.

I could care less about the dragstrip, car show, burnout contest, or the Country Club snobhouse conversation.

In every areana. So how are the drag stip and the road course that opposite? The 818 should corner much better, but if you loose the lead in the straits then what's the point? So since you don't care about the car shows, does that mean that you don't care about how the car looks?


Have you seen the chars like this on the FFR Website. Its nice to have a real world comparison sometimes. I wonder where the 818 will fall on this chart.
http://www.factoryfive.com/roadster/performance/chart.html

GTM:
http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/performance/perfchart.html

[PhyrraM]

Nope, just trying to illistrate that it's foolish to think a car can compete in ALL areas with another. Something is always going to give.

Comprimises will need to be made and results will show that.

It will be up to each individual buyer to decide if FFR made the right ones.

[mn_vette]

Nope, just trying to illistrate that it's foolish to think a car can compete in ALL areas with another. Something is always going to give.

Comprimises will need to be made and results will show that.

It will be up to each individual buyer to decide if FFR made the right ones.

I agree with you, if they tried to get everything we would have a roadster/tagara/hardtop car right out of the box.

I guess I thought most people would want one of those categories that it should excel in to be power to weight. Which is shown by 0-60 and quarter mile times. If people are ok with what ever time they get than that's fine, but if people are competing its good to know where the compitition stacks up.

[Magnus]

In every areana. So how are the drag stip and the road course that opposite? The 818 should corner much better, but if you loose the lead in the straits then what's the point? So since you don't care about the car shows, does that mean that you don't care about how the car looks?


Have you seen the chars like this on the FFR Website. Its nice to have a real world comparison sometimes. I wonder where the 818 will fall on this chart.
http://www.factoryfive.com/roadster/performance/chart.html

GTM:
http://www.factoryfive.com/gtm/performance/perfchart.html

Depends on how much lead you lose--if a Corvette is faster than the 818 on the straights but turns in a slower lap overall, then the 818 wins after one lap. If you want to stomp a Corvette with an 818, you're going to have to wait to do it where you can play to the 818's strengths, whatever they are. Hell, you could beat a top fuel dragster with an 818, but you'd have to do it in a way that takes advantage of the dragsters higher fuel consumption, longer turning radius and understeer. There is a reason you don't see top fuel on a Formula 1 circuit...

[Ks2]

On a 2002 WRX, Cobb Tuning provides a "Stage 2" map that will net 285hp, according to their calculations. All that is necessary is a turbo-back exhaust, which the 818 will likely have. It also requires 93 octane, but I think the WRX needs that anyhow.

the USDM WRX/STI take 91 from the factory, you may need to run 93 if you have a JDM sti motor or have a ton of upgrades (most cobb maps for heavily modified cars are either 91 or 93)

either way tuning for e-85 would offer the same advantage as 93 (at about half the cost) you would need a bigger fuel pump though (maybe injectors and some other things depending on other modifications) of course the cobb route does not offer e-85 maps

as for fuel economy 18 would be nice in my Subaru, even in the 818 with far less weight and half the wheels to drive i don't imagine it would get much better, i am sure it is possible but why build a car like this if you are going to drive it like it's a prius?

for beating a corvette or making a car great at everything... what is the saying "a jack of all trades is a master of none" i would rather have a car that does a few things spectacularly and is average in other regards then one that tries to be everything to everyone

[Wayne Presley]

I just hope it's as fun as the Elise's I've been in lately. A turbo (rebuilding currently with forged pistons, shooting for 325 RWHP) and a NA with 175 RWHP, both weighing 1983 and 1951lbs respectively. It's so much fun driving these cars, I much prefer driving them over the any vette I've driven at the track. The feel through the steering wheel, the balance and quick transitions, I really hope the FRX does it all as good or better.

[16g-95gsx]

I think threads like this are dumb. The car isn't even made and therefore any speculation would be bench racing at it's finest. Corvettes are great cars, and they have their own niche, but there is no doubt that a well setup 818 would be an incredible car.

[bbjones121]

are Z06's really doing that slow at 5800ft elevation?

at my elevation, they are running 11.9 to 12.2 completely stock. and can get into the low 11's with only a change of tires.

Yeah they run upper 12s here. There is another legacy owner running 12.3 1/4's with a BNR 64hta( I think that is right) on a stock block also. Naturally aspirated engines suck up here. FI subarus,evos, porsches, and your few GTRs and zr1s rule the roads in denver. I am not worried about a turbo 818 having any problems showing up almost every car on the road. People at sea level may have to bump it up a notch.

[c6_rob]

Apples to oranges, you could just about compare anything. With FFR cars you could just about build anything to beat anything in almost any category, handling, off the line, etc. There's so many variables.

Honestly the comparison threads are useless. Any "blank" could beat a "blank" with the right "blank" and "blank" The 818 could take anything you want at a light with the right amount of time, money and engineering.

Im a vette guy, I love the GTM but my concern is not beating every mustang I see. If you want to make an 818 take a Vette it entirely possible, with the times you talk of (3.95) its gonna come down to driver skill. Put some hoosiers on there get a bad a$$ launch and its all over.

Vettes are awesome Daily Drivers, the kit cars are pride and joy, for me two different areas of satisfaction.

Sorry for the rant, had a few drinks, lol and just espressin

[16g-95gsx]

Exactly

[Wilky]

I think it would be more important to beat a Lotus Elise/Exige this appears to be the vehicle this would most likely compete with. Not a Vette or Viper. This is going to be a light weight, track ready car that can be driven on the street. Not a 1/4 dragster.

[Mike N]

I know the original question was a comparison to a Vette but my take on the 818 is that it will be more like an Aerial Atom with a full body. The Atom is a killer track car and has a very respectable 0-60 and 1/4 mile time with a similar power to weight ratio. The Atom is lighter though at 1350 lbs. Probably the most impressive stat on the Atom is a 0-100-0 time of under 11 seconds.

[Someday I Suppose]

Not sure if it will be faster, but I bet it will be quicker. :-)

[VF48WRX]

Not sure if it will be faster, but I bet it will be quicker. :-)

agreed. Quicker is not even in question. Faster depends on transmission. If I do this kit, I'll be using my RS trans, so it won't be faster :)

[South Dakobra]

Why is everyone putting the vette at a $50K car?

A used stock C5, 345hp gets about 18mpg in town and up to 30mpg highway and can be purchased (if you shop a little) for less than $15 grand. You can find them quite often under $20K.

I know we said "Stock Vette", but think about a $15K stock vette with $3K in "breathing" upgrades. Then compare the $18K bang for a buck.

[16g-95gsx]

Because people are bench racing, and that's what bench racers do, they pay attention to stock performance specs and prices.

[South Dakobra]

Agreed.
This Bench Race: Corvette vs. 818
Misrepresenting values is always the "fudge factor" when bench racing. Guys fudge on HP, ET and value.
I'm stating that a Corvette and 818 may easily be Equal Value.
So there's no reason to state, "Well the Corvette should be faster, better handling, more comofortable or whatever, it's a $50K car"
Bench Racers, same as real racers (including me on both) always compare the value/speed factor.

Stock C5/LS1 Corvette ($15K Value) vs. New Factory Five 818 (projected $15K Value)

[Fast818]

For speed it is power to weight ratio but for performance/track cornering it suspension and setup (wheels,tires,shocks/coils,camber,castor and weight bias etc)

[TehLlama]

I completely agree with Dakobra that a similar vintage C5 'vette should actually still be the outright winner for straight line performance up to the $25k mark, which is still an apples/oranges comparison, but at least we're comparing fruit, vice the easier argument of the bottom line patient man's build price of the 818 against an MSRP/Markup priced current Corvette.

I do think that the better target for those looking to tun the 818 should be spending around $25k (the same price range that many competing models, such as the MX5, Genesis Coupe SpecR, and similarly powered FT-86 will fall) for Donor, Kit, and bolt-on performance upgrades that will allow the 818 to stalk a corvette in a straight line, and not compromise its ability to squirt ahead in the twisty bits - so stuff like the transmission selected for the kit, and exhaust components could actually make a pretty difference on this.

In much the same way the Imprezas compete with Mustangs (various trim levels all overlapping in straight lines), just being in the zip code of a Corvette in the latter's domain is enough of an accomplishment.

[BipDBo]

It's not even built yet, but 0-60 performance is relatively easy to predict. It basically comes down to power vs weight ratio and weight distribution over the driven wheels. Aerodynamics isn't a big factor under 60. Some like to express power to weight ratio as bhp per ton, but I prefer the inverse; lbs per hp, the lower the better. I am feeling ambitious, so I'll compare it to the ZR1, which can rocke to 60 in 3.4 seconds. I am going to assume that curb weights are dry, and guess some values for driver weight and fluids; 270 lbs for the Corvette, 260 for the 818.
base coupe Z06 ZR1 818
curb weight: 3208 lbs 3175 lbs 3333 lbs 1800 lbs
total weight: 3578 lbs 3445 lbs 3603 lbs 2060 lbs
power: 430 hp 505 hp 638 hp 227 hp
lbs per hp: 8.32 6.82 5.65 9.07

Well, with a stock 2005 WRX engine, the 818 is toast. With some modifications, though it could be faster. To match power ratios, the Subie engine would need to produce at the crank, 248 hp for the Corvette base, 302 hp for the Z06 and 365 hp for the ZR1. Tuning the little 4 cylinder to compete with the base Corvette or even Z06 should be fairly simple. To catch the ZR1, your going to need deep pockets, and probably a heavily modified transmission, so you would probably be better off starting with a GTM.

Some of the other factors are speculative. The corvette will have a better power curve, not suffering from turbo lag, and will have some computerize traction control. A good driver can make up for some of this. The 818 will have a big advantage, however in weight distribution. The Corvette has a 51/49 distribution but the 818 maay put around 65% of its weight on the rear wheels standing still.

[Steve91T]

It's not even built yet, but 0-60 performance is relatively easy to predict. It basically comes down to power vs weight ratio and weight distribution over the driven wheels. Aerodynamics isn't a big factor under 60. Some like to express power to weight ratio as bhp per ton, but I prefer the inverse; lbs per hp, the lower the better. I am feeling ambitious, so I'll compare it to the ZR1, which can rocke to 60 in 3.4 seconds. I am going to assume that curb weights are dry, and guess some values for driver weight and fluids; 270 lbs for the Corvette, 260 for the 818.
base coupe Z06 ZR1 818
curb weight: 3208 lbs 3175 lbs 3333 lbs 1800 lbs
total weight: 3578 lbs 3445 lbs 3603 lbs 2060 lbs
power: 430 hp 505 hp 638 hp 227 hp
lbs per hp: 8.32 6.82 5.65 9.07

Well, with a stock 2005 WRX engine, the 818 is toast. With some modifications, though it could be faster. To match power ratios, the Subie engine would need to produce at the crank, 248 hp for the Corvette base, 302 hp for the Z06 and 365 hp for the ZR1. Tuning the little 4 cylinder to compete with the base Corvette or even Z06 should be fairly simple. To catch the ZR1, your going to need deep pockets, and probably a heavily modified transmission, so you would probably be better off starting with a GTM.

Some of the other factors are speculative. The corvette will have a better power curve, not suffering from turbo lag, and will have some computerize traction control. A good driver can make up for some of this. The 818 will have a big advantage, however in weight distribution. The Corvette has a 51/49 distribution but the 818 maay put around 65% of its weight on the rear wheels standing still.

It better not have 65% of the weight over the rear! I'm guessing around 55%.

[BipDBo]

"It better not have 65% of the weight over the rear! I'm guessing around 55%."

Maybe 65% is a high guess. I don't think it will be much less than 60, though. The aerial Atom has a 40/60 distribution and the Lotus 211 has a 38/62 distribution. The 211 is probably a better comparison, and it does have a lighter engine than the 818. This is not neccessarily a bad thing. The factory 5 GTM is at 42/58. Optimal for the drag strip would probably be around 20/80, but optimal for the track is probably between 45/55 to 35/65. It will certainly have a better ratio than 51/49. This might point to a need, however, for wider rear tires than the front, which would nix using stock wrx wheels.

[BipDBo]

The weight distribution also points to the need for aerodynamic downforce on the front wheels. Any bloke can push down the rear of the car by adding a big spoiler. Short of adding a big "pikes peak" style snowplow, you can't do much to an existing shape to put force down on the front wheels. Adding downforce to the front wheels was the single biggest driving force in my design. The air intake for the radiator is low and wide and discharges air out the top of the slopped hood. Unfortunately, I don't think that many of the designs took this heavily into consideration.

[olpro]

I suspect that a lot of cars with those big rear spoilers and wings are making the front lift situation worse by overloading the rear. It really should be in balance, front to rear.
A front dam can done in a flexible material and located near the bottom of the radiator rather than way up by the front bumper. That location, being nearer the front axle, is much less of a ramp angle issue.

[Racer86]

Just sayin,,,,,, a C6 Corvette,,base at 430 hp, ZO6 at 505 hp and the ZR1 at 650 hp..... none of these cars can hook up all the power for a full out launch. They all use traction control. 0 to 60 times are fun but not a true indication of a "lap" on a road course,,, But on a true road race course,, lets play with 40 mph to 150 mph... My C6 has no major traction problems at that speed with correct throttle control, and the ecu (set in comp mode ) will let you use the full power. Launch traction for 0 to 60 is one thing... the wrx with 4 wheel drive has a big advantage on launch, but, big torque (Corvette) at speed off corners is tough to beat. Lets build the 818 and see what happens. I have raced over 40 years in SCCA, Nascar, Imsa, and I think that weight is the biggest killer of performance.

[Racer86]

The weight distribution also points to the need for aerodynamic downforce on the front wheels. Any bloke can push down the rear of the car by adding a big spoiler. Short of adding a big "pikes peak" style snowplow, you can't do much to an existing shape to put force down on the front wheels. Adding downforce to the front wheels was the single biggest driving force in my design. The air intake for the radiator is low and wide and discharges air out the top of the slopped hood. Unfortunately, I don't think that many of the designs took this heavily into consideration.
also, big downforce is created by the front splitter tray under the car, and the angle upwards towards the front wheels. Louvers on the trailing top edge of the front fenders to vent high pressure air adds to front downforce.

[prematureapex]

Has anyone contacted Cobb tuning about the FFR 818 yet? It would be great if they get on the ball early, and offer options to Factory Five right out of the gate when the car is ready to launch. :)

Why would you need to contact Cobb? They already make all the hardware, and the software for the EJ20/25. The FF option out of the gate is the existing Subaru option. Nothing would be changed.

Drop in the motor, flash the ECU with an upgraded map, Cobb, Opensource, XPT, etc., and off you go.

[Movieman]

Its amusing to see that people are already defending this car and we haven't even seen it in go-cart form yet. Yes, the Corvette would cost more and be more comon place, but loosing is loosing. The car may or may not handle better in the curves, that is still to be seen.

I started thos post for those that are looking to keep up with the Joneses, well guess what, the Jones's car is pretty darn fast out of the box. To pass them you are going to need some upgrades to the WRX engine setup, so start planning now.
Ok, I'm a n00b here but here's my 3 cents:
To me the question should be is it reasonable to expect a $20,000.00+ 818 to be able to turn the straight line numbers
of the top sports car in the country thats had 60+ years of development and costs at least THREE times as much?
By your logic we should be bashing the Corvette because the Bugatti Veyron is quicker and faster.
Isn't it more reasonable to look at the 818 and see it for what it will be.
A reasonably priced car with incredible performance for it's price range.
When I first saw the pricing on the FFR kits I did a "IS THAT ALL THEY ARE CHARGING"?
That to me is the key to all the FFR packages plus the superb chassis and lets not forget the dedication of the people involved.

[prematureapex]

Ok, I'm a n00b here but here's my 3 cents:
To me the question should be is it reasonable to expect a $20,000.00+ 818 to be able to turn the straight line numbers
of the top sports car in the country thats had 60+ years of development and costs at least THREE times as much?
By your logic we should be bashing the Corvette because the Bugatti Veyron is quicker and faster.
Isn't it more reasonable to look at the 818 and see it for what it will be.
A reasonably priced car with incredible performance for it's price range.
When I first saw the pricing on the FFR kits I did a "IS THAT ALL THEY ARE CHARGING"?
That to me is the key to all the FFR packages plus the superb chassis and lets not forget the dedication of the people involved.

Sounds like 2 cents. :p

It isn't hard to drop a motor in a tube frame chassis and achieve great straight line numbers by a favorable power/weight.

This isn't expensive to do, nor complicated, not in the slightest. Guys are making similar frames in their garages for their project 7s, etc. all the time. So are kids in college, namely SAE cars.

One is a kit car, with virtually no interior, crude fit and finish, no amenities, no "real body", no warranty, that doesn't have to pass government crash testing, etc. One is a production car, built to a much higher standard, with a much greater content, and that must pass emissions/crash testing.

About the ONLY thing you can compare on a production car (i.e. Vette, etc.) and an 818 is performance. In all other categories, there is no comparison, you're getting more in the production car, and you're paying for it. It is not unreasonable to compare its performance to much more expensive cars, they are much more expensive for reasons unrelated to performance.

Hence, FFR can make an 1800 lb. two seater, while a "real" car manufacturer would be hard-pressed to create a car that light without resorting to exotic materials, and $texas in R&D, with a sticker price of god knows what.

[Movieman]

Sounds like 2 cents. :p

It isn't hard to drop a motor in a tube frame chassis and achieve great straight line numbers by a favorable power/weight.

This isn't expensive to do, nor complicated, not in the slightest. Guys are making similar frames in their garages for their project 7s, etc. all the time. So are kids in college, namely SAE cars.

One is a kit car, with virtually no interior, crude fit and finish, no amenities, no "real body", no warranty, that doesn't have to pass government crash testing, etc. One is a production car, built to a much higher standard, with a much greater content, and that must pass emissions/crash testing.

About the ONLY thing you can compare on a production car (i.e. Vette, etc.) and an 818 is performance. In all other categories, there is no comparison, you're getting more in the production car, and you're paying for it. It is not unreasonable to compare its performance to much more expensive cars, they are much more expensive for reasons unrelated to performance.

Hence, FFR can make an 1800 lb. two seater, while a "real" car manufacturer would be hard-pressed to create a car that light without resorting to exotic materials, and $texas in R&D, with a sticker price of god knows what.
Fair enough, it was only 2 cents so here's the 3rd..
If we're talking JUST performance and excluding the costs then why even compare the 818 to a Corvette.
Let's compare it to the fastest most exotic car in the world.
Then again, lets not stop there, lets compare it to a 700MPH rocket car used out at Bonneville.
My point is that all things are relative and it's not fair to compare the 818 design to the Corvette because cost has to be a factor.
A $25,000.00 vechicle is within the grasp of a vast majority of people where the Corvette isn't.
Just plain economics and they appeal to a different market although I'll grant you that many from both economic situations would like both.
As to what GM has to go through to get their vechicle to market vs what FFR has to do thats really not a factor of the discussion as that is eachs choice on how to market what they want to sell.
Bottom line is that even if the 818 with a stock motor won't out run the Corvette in a straight line all one would have to do is mod the motor for pretty short money to make up the difference.
Also lets be honest with one another, These two cars are just plain not designed for the same use or market at least as I see it.
One is a high horsepower cruiser/sports car and the other is a no frills low cost build it yourself bottle rocket.
Ok, thats more than one cent..Call it a cent and a 1/2..:D

[prematureapex]

Fair enough, it was only 2 cents so here's the 3rd..
If we're talking JUST performance and excluding the costs then why even compare the 818 to a Corvette.


I agree these are largely two different buyers, new to new. However I think there are those that will cross-shop kit to used.

For example, myself. I'm looking to change up my track-car in the next year or two. And I was strongly considering used Box/Cayman S's, a used Z06 Vette, etc. These cars can be had in the $25-35k range depending on the model etc.

Being a long-time Subaru guy, the 818 has jumped to the top of the list.

Again, while most "new" vette sales aren't for guys looking for a track rat, a not-insignificant amount of used sales are.

So, for guys with some mechnical sense (enough not to shy away from a simple kit), looking for a track toy, I'd certainly say that there are people who would cross-shop these. Probably not many, but certainly some.

Anyway, for guys like me, performance comparisons are unavoidable. Am I going to spring $15-20k for this, over ____ car (used)? Well, I'm certainly going to be considering how they each perform. And whether or not any cost/performance advantages outweigh the fact that one is a production car, and one is a kit (interior/roof/safetyl/etc.)

[crackedcornish]

Not sure if it will be faster, but I bet it will be quicker. :-)

hit the nail on head....I wouldn't be able to use a fast car, but I sure could use a quick one ...and a lighter car should stop shorter, and change direction better as well...autocross anyone?

[Gollum]

Since I've been quite the ambassador of bench racing around here while we bide our time I figure it's only natural that I should chime in.

This really is apples to oranges, but the figures are close enough that I can see how people could put them in the same ballpark.

In the end, what matters is power/weight and how well the car launches. The fact the vette can make it to 60mph in 1st gear is only worth a smudge on the figures. Gearing makes a difference, but you have to realize that the difference is negligible when comparing the difference of 10 extra HP or 100 less pounds.

And from where I'm sitting, a STOCK engine'ed 225hp 818 will loose straight line. It might be quicker in the corners, but that remains to be seen. In reality though, most people will make at least some small modifications which means we need to look at what the vette will get with mods. The LS engines mostly top out around 450-500hp NA without serious work, but the WRX engine will reach 300hp with about equal work as getting the vette to 500. If it's a 2.5 block you can count on getting it to 350 just as easily. More power is probably available but the trans is certainly subject, and that puts us into a whole different world of expenses that we're not really accounting for here.

So at those figures, it's probably a close race, but I have a feeling the 818 will have less problems launching and keeping traction. But then again in these kinds of comparisons it really will just boil down to the drivers. But that said, a 300hp 818 will most likely smother a vette in a straight line, and a 350hp one will tear it to shreds. How many people will actually build them up the those levels remains to be seen though.

[prematureapex]

Keep in mind guys, the EJ20 is incredibly easy to get, say, 60 hp out of without spending hardly a dime or noticeably decreasing reliability. A $100 cable, your laptop and a free to $50 map will get you 280-290 HP at the crank, even on a gutted stock exhaust (or a $100 downpipe).

I'll probably try hard to find a 2.5l donor, but a 225 whp (that's with AWD, so figure 235 ish whp) setup is virtually free to achieve on the 2.0, and should still prove to be quite fast.

[Ks2]

man i miss autocrossing i haven't since i couldn't race in my old class anymore (price you pay for JDM motors)

as for a ~350 HP that is actually quite affordable, a used STI motor runs around 4k, my estimate is with another ~2k in bang for your buck parts ball park 350 is within reason, turbo injectors pump and tuning... granted mine when it made 380+ with AWD TCS and all that does get kinda squirrelly it would be interesting to see how the transition from AWD to MR will affect this for better or worse

[Movieman]

I agree these are largely two different buyers, new to new. However I think there are those that will cross-shop kit to used.

For example, myself. I'm looking to change up my track-car in the next year or two. And I was strongly considering used Box/Cayman S's, a used Z06 Vette, etc. These cars can be had in the $25-35k range depending on the model etc.

Being a long-time Subaru guy, the 818 has jumped to the top of the list.

Again, while most "new" vette sales aren't for guys looking for a track rat, a not-insignificant amount of used sales are.

So, for guys with some mechnical sense (enough not to shy away from a simple kit), looking for a track toy, I'd certainly say that there are people who would cross-shop these. Probably not many, but certainly some.

Anyway, for guys like me, performance comparisons are unavoidable. Am I going to spring $15-20k for this, over ____ car (used)? Well, I'm certainly going to be considering how they each perform. And whether or not any cost/performance advantages outweigh the fact that one is a production car, and one is a kit (interior/roof/safetyl/etc.)
Fair enough my friend.
Can we agree that we all like different things and over lap on a lot of them.
I've always been a big beleiver in low weight cars back to 1968 with my first one.
Had a 289 1962 Ford Falcon Ranchero when all my buddies were doing big block Camaro's,etc..
The Ranchero weighed 2750lbs, 289 had a Edelbrock F4B intake with a little 600 Holley,C4 tranny with a 2200 stall torque converter, set of Hooker headers and Accel ignition. 9" rear with 4:30's..
Other than that stock..
You'd laugh at the stories I could tell you of "walking away" from cars with MUCH more power..
Loved that car, wish I still had it.
Did a 73 Vega fastback in 77 on the same idea.
30 over 350 4 bolt main Chev,TRW 11-1's,2.02 angle plug heads,Crane 310 duration/485 lift Hydraulic cam, app 470HP at the flywheel, M22,narrowed 12 bolt with 5:86's and a spool.
Yea, my daily driver..chirp-chirp-chirp around the corners with the spool:D
Not that it would go around a corner..Taking a curve at speed was taking your life in your hands but boy was it fast in a straight line..
Only got beat once in that car..
A sleeper 70 Lemans with a 455 with Nitrous got me by 1/2 a car 20-120mph..
Should have seen the look on my face as I'm thinking " WHAT the hell has he got in that big boat?"
Back to this, don't get me wrong, I like Corvettes, always have but they are out of my ability to own due to price.
My biggest question right now is do I go for the roadster, the coupe, or wait and see what the 818 is like.
That is of course a moot point if they draw one of the right five raffle tickets with my name on it this coming saturday in Ohio.:D

[SkiRideDrive]

It better not have 65% of the weight over the rear! I'm guessing around 55%.

What's wrong with having more weight over the rear of the car? It's better for acceleration, it's better for braking, and as long as the roll stiffness distribution accounts for it, it can handle neutrally as well.

[Draco-REX]

Well, according to the calcs out there, my planned 818 would go 0-60 in 2.8 and tear down the 1/4 in 10.5 even carrying my big @$$ around.

Of course, those are all ideal numbers. Likely I'd see 0-60 in mid 3s with quick shifting and the 1/4 would be a stretch to crack the 11.5 threshold for a cage. I have the feeling that it'll be tough to launch this car.

But what I really can't wait for is to flog it on an AutoX course. :)