Question for the engine experts

[oldguy668]

I have located a 1967 289 complete engine that I want to use in my FIA build. I need a pre-1974 assembly to get my emissions signoff in Massachusetts. What do you recommend for a rebuilding scheme to get 320-350 streetable horsepower? This is a fixed budget build, so I can'r break the bank on an engine. However, I'd like to make the most of the fact that I have to use an older block.

[68GT500MAN]

I would like to hear how others answer your question Joe. I just picked up a similar engine (complete with California Smog) that has never been disassembled for a prospective build I am thinking about. I already have members of the Mustang Club wanting the smog set up that will give me cash for the engine build.
Doug

[Jeff Kleiner]

You'll have to start twisting a 289 pretty good to get north of 320ish IMHO but remember---it's a 4" bore so by changing cranks you can easily turn it into a 302 or if so inclined a 331 or 347 stroker. It's the old "more cubes/more power" adage. Pretty much all 5.0 hop up tricks apply but you'll need to keep in mind that you will either need to stick with a flat tappet camshaft or configure it for an aftermarket roller. Me? I'd probably build a little 331 using a set of TFS Twisted Wedge heads along with a cam profile along the lines of their Stage 1.

Jeff

[oldguy668]

Jeff what's involved doing the aftermarket roller lifter conversion?

[Olli]

I'm not Jeff, but on my '69 351 engine it involved having a custom cam made with a reduced base circle and the block gets drilled and tapped for the lifter spider and you can use the Ford lifters. The '72 302 block that was in my HR was built this way too. You could use retrofit hydraulic lifters that are linked but they are $$$ and then you wouldn't need the spider. It has been a while so I hope that I am remembering things correctly.

Olli

[rmiller64]

My last 30 years has been with mustangs and 289's. Back in the day the hipo was 271hp with solid flat tappet cam headers and 4 barrel. I think you can get the 320 your looking for with 10:1 aftermarket heads Aluminum or World products cast iron heads, le Mans grind solid cam or more modern Comp 282S a good intake/Carb and headers. Google HIPO 289 rebuild and you can find years worth of how to articles. haven't even taken delivery of my MKIV and I want to build a FIA kit with a vintage 289

Jeff has good advise also by stoking it to 331. running a retro fit roller cam might blow the budget

good luck and look forward to following your build

[2FAST4U]

Aftermarket roller lifter conversion is simple. You use a spider like in roller motors and drill holes for the spider. Google ford roller conversion.

You can easily make 390-400 FWHP with a 289. You need to shoot for 11:1 compression, good heads, and a good cam. What induction system are you planning to go with? Webers? Four bbl carb?

[2FAST4U]

Addendum: call any of the cam manufacturers and tell them your plans. They'll help with cam selection or a custom grind

[2FAST4U]

http://www.fordmuscle.com/2006/01/roller-cam-conversion-made-easy/

[2FAST4U]

I would go with aluminum heads (paint engine block color) from RHS. Port and polish them and port match them and the intake. Good heads matched with the right cam is the ticket here.

[oldguy668]

Bill, thanks for the links. Right now I'm planning on a 4 barrel but there might be two of them in the budget. Olli, thanks for the info and advice.

BTW, I checked the casting number today to verify its date and it is a '66. We're inching closer to the year of the car.

[2FAST4U]

Tests have shown an Air Gap performs almost as well as a Victor Jr. and better than a Victor Jr. at normal driving speeds.

[skullandbones]

Hey oldguy,

What is your budget and is that crank or rear wheel hp you are talking about (320 to 350)? Knowing the real budget would answer whether you have a real budget build in mind or one of those crate engine type budgets. I have some ideas for a real budget build.

WEK.

[oldguy668]

Hey oldguy,

What is your budget and is that crank or rear wheel hp you are talking about (320 to 350)? Knowing the real budget would answer whether you have a real budget build in mind or one of those crate engine type budgets. I have some ideas for a real budget build.

WEK.

I want to see if I can make a decent amount of smoke and noise during the burnout session at my local cruise night. I'd like to keep it in the $3-4,000 range.

[Olli]

Joe,

Do get the block machined for a 1 piece rear seal.....


Olli

[oldguy668]

Thanks, Olli. Every article I've read recommends that very strongly.

[bwlyon]

OK, so you want 320-350 HP from 289 CI and be streetable, that can definitely be done, but I'm using the term streetable liberally with the build I would propose based on your budget. We all want that choppy, mean sounding Idle, but it has it's draw backs, e.g low vacuum, poor part throttle/low speed drivability. The key to remember is that an engine is an air pump, which means the more air you can efficiently move in and out the easier it is to make power (airflow = POWER). Now one way to increase power/airflow potential is displacement (increased bore and stroke); however, the cylinder heads on small block fords are weak when it comes to airflow and become hindrances real fast. Therefore, airflow of the cylinder heads needs to be addressed. Another way to make more power is to increase compression ratio. As well, camshaft selection is the key to make the engine combination work, for it is what times the events of air coming in and air going out of engine. With all this said, I believe you can achieve your goal with prudent choices in the parts and machine work, and proper assembly of your engine. After all, you have an engine with all components present, or I hope you do. Now lets build your engine.
1. I'd go with stock crank and rods, a properly machined block, and quality aftermarket flat pistons with two valve reliefs. Hypernetic pistons are fine for this build and will allow for tighter piston to cylinder clearances. Watch out for cheap pistons as they usually have a shorter piston height that puts the piston further down in the whole which hurts compression ratio. I'd shoot for the piston to be .005" in the hole after final machining work is complete. As for bore size the minimum required is best, which will be .030", .040", or .060" over. This will save money for cylinder head airflow up grades coming up next. I'll choose a good head over a stroker kit any day.
2. Cylinder heads is going to be the weakest link here, as small block Ford heads are weak at best, but there is hope. The cost of machine work and porting is expensive these days, which begs the question do you go with stock or aftermarket aluminum heads. Because the cost difference is so small it all comes down to preference here, and your states regs for emissions. Personally, I'm gonna try and save you a few hundred dollars and tell you to send your heads to Power Heads Performance in California to have them work them over for you. They will completely CNC port your heads, and rebuild them with hardened exhaust seats to work with unleaded gas, new valves with 5 angle valve job, valve seals, valve guides, screw in studs and guide plates, and new valve springs for your camshaft, all assembled, tested, and ready to bolt on for about 1200 bucks plus shipping. The increase in airflow is very good, and will easily support the requested HP requirements you are wanting and about a hundred more. I would stick with stock rocker arms, the cost to performance gain is minimal at this horsepower level. If you wanted to boost compression a little you could have .020" milled of the heads, and maintain good intake alignment and have no problem with exhaust system fitment. If aluminum heads are in your budget, I'd go with a set of Air flow research 185 heads these are good heads and make awesome power in a broad RPM band, some may steer you in the direction of the 165 heads, but the 185s will work well with minimal effect on low RPM performance and will give you room to grow your engine later down the line just make sure you get the small combustion chambered heads for the increased compression.
3. Camshaft selection is going to be where all the power is made, because it controls the valve opening and closing events. This is also where the definition of streetable comes into play as the larger the cam the less "streetable" the engine becomes. To make the requested power, I'd go with a Compcams custom ground solid lifter flat tappet camshaft. If you want an of the shelf cam that will get the job done that would be part number 31-335-4. This is a solid lifter flat tappet cam and will require new solid lifters. This cam has a net lift of .548" with a 294 degree advertised duration with a duration of 248 degrees @.050" lift. Also the cam has a 106 degree intake centerline, and a lobe seperation angle of 110 degrees, which means it won't produce a lot of engine vacuum at idle. It will have that rough performance idle you are looking for though. If you have the money, I'd choose a custom ground cam with 240-245 duration @.050" lift intake and 245-250 duration @050" lift on the exhaust, with a total lift in the .540"-.550" range with valve lash figured in. As for the intake center line I'd shoot for 108-110 degrees and a lobe seperation angle of 112 degrees this will broaden the power curve and help improve idle quality and idle vacuum. Don't fret it will still have a rough idle just not quite as rough. Either cam should make good power between 2800-3000 RPM up to 6200-6500 RPM.
4. Proper intake and carburetor selection is going to help produce cruising performance and throttle response. I'd choose an Edelbrock performer RPM air gap manifold for its broad powerband capabilities. For a carb, either an Edelbrock 600cfm carb or a Holley Avenger 570 or 670 CFM will do the trick and provide a crisper throttle response than their bigger counterparts and are sized for this engine. With carburetors sometimes to big is a bad thing. All these carbs have vacuum secondaries, and are relatively easy to tune. The Edelbrock is less messy and a bit easier to tune as the top comes of the carb; plus you can make metering rod adjustments without taking the top off. With that said the Holley will likely make a several more horsepower than the edelbrock, but the float bowels have to come off for jet changes.

That's my engine build. I will let others chime in on ignition items, oil pumps and all that stuff. I believe the combo above should deliver 350-375 horsepower at the flywheel easily or more with aluminum heads, with a pump gas friendly 9.5-1 to 10.5-1 compression ratio.

Tell me what you think FFR members? Am I going to reach my HP mark?[/SIZE][/SIZE]

[skullandbones]

You can get the HP level you are looking for without breaking the bank. I started with an ATK crate engine rated at 300 hp at 5800 rpms. I took the E7 heads off and replaced them with some GT40p heads that I ported and shaved to get about 9.7/1. 1.9/1.65 valves can make hp. I added Crane alum rockers (1.7) that fit like OEM rockers. The crate engine had a E cam or equivalent. If you add a good flowing intake and port match everything, you should do well. I added the largest EFI manifold I could (Holley) and a 75 mm TB with 24 lb injectors. Hot Rod Magazine did an article documenting a very similar engine to mine and got over 350 HP on the dyno. My cost was within your budget range. Be careful though. You can bust the budget quickly with aluminum heads from the big names. You don't have to have alum heads to make hp. I plan on upgrading to get another 100 hp but what I have is plenty of fun right now and is capable of getting you in a lot of trouble. Good luck, WEK.

[oldguy668]

This kind of info is just what I hoped I'd get. I love this place...

[2FAST4U]

Another thing to remember is, the more radical the cam in terms of overlap, the more static compression you can run. But there is a limit, so be careful. I'm running 11.5:1 static compression with a dynamic compression of 9:1. That is slightly over the limit when using pump gas (7.5-8.5 DCR) but I'm running 4:10 gears and these cars are light. I think you should aim for 10.5 to 11.0 max static compression if you use aluminum heads. Slightly less if using iron heads.

Although off-the-shelf cams are popular, I really think a custom grind will work better for you. The cost difference is small considering you will get much better results.

[mg2]

This thread came up at the right time, I have the same budget but wanted to stay with EFI.

[oldguy668]

Bill, when you talk about "static" vs "dynamic" compression my eyes start to glaze. You have to dumb this down a little so I know what you mean. The next engine I build will be the first one.

[2FAST4U]

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced%20Engine%20Tuning/Static%20vs%20Dynamic.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compression_ratio

[Takis31gk]

http://www.mustangandfords.com/parts/mump-1003-1965-hi-po-engine-versus-shelby-289-short-block/viewall.html

Here's an article I found, maybe it can provide some help.

[seagull81]

My 2 cents is on lifters. Spend the money and get the roller lifters with a tie bar. I just lost a good cam in a 347 to a stock dog bone that broke. Rollers don't do well when they turn sideways.

[OVCobra]

As Jeff pointed out above, the key to making power is a good set of heads and a cam to match. No doubt many opinions on what heads are "best" (I personally prefer AFR) but really any aftermarket head will outflow a stock head and may/will be cheaper than porting a stock set.

Again as Jeff points out, no replacement for displacement so a 331 or 347 will make it easier to make HP...better rod angle on the 331 if you want to really wind it up but most street motors the 347 offers a little more, IMO.

On the roller cam vs. flat tappet, no doubt that the roller cam offers a better option for high lift/flow but like all things it comes at a cost. IF budget is a prime consideration, I would think you are better off spending the money on a good set of heads would be a wiser investment for now. You can always upgrade to a roller cam at a later time if/when funds allow and the costs associated with the flat tappet cam are relatively minor.

Questions on motors are like belly buttons...everyone has one. The best advice truly is to speak/plan you engine with a builder who has experience with small block fords...the extra you may pay to him (or her?) will be small compared to wasted $$$$ on mis-matched parts and experiments.

Again all of this is just my two cents.....

Dave

[Avalanche325]

My 2 cents is on lifters. Spend the money and get the roller lifters with a tie bar. I just lost a good cam in a 347 to a stock dog bone that broke. Rollers don't do well when they turn sideways.

That is why I stated on the other forum, that I don't like dog bones and spider trays. They are a Band-Aid solution. As Seagull stated, spend a few more dollars and get link bar lifters. You will spin the rear tires in this car at some point, even if it is a cruiser, and that is when things in the valve train can show you what is weak.

As you see from a lot of comments here, engines are a balancing act. Everything has a plus and minus. Often the minus is having to spend more money to maintain reliability as power goes up.

[oldguy668]

Thanks for the helpful insight. I'm a 5-time FFR junkie but I've never built a motor so anything I learn in this thread will be put to good use.

[Avalanche325]

Building your own is a lot of fun. Well, it is really assembling, unless you own a machine shop.

There are a couple good books that you may want to get.
How to Re-Build Small Block Fords by Tom Monroe - It is from the 80's, so a bit dated and pretty bad pictures.
How to Rebuild the Small-Block Ford by George Reid. I found this to be a good book with good pictures.

I purchased my engine as a DIY kit from Fordstrokers. He also has http://www.sbfbuilding.com/ which is a series of videos that are helpful. It is a pay site, but I found a few details there that I didn't know and that are not in the books. It had been a long time since I did a build. There is some bad language, which I personally found funny in the context. Hey, it is engine building, not a visit with the Pope.

[JoeT]

Joe,

I haven't been following the MA regs since moving. Will just the block being '66 enough? or will the mac center be looking for correct heads, intake, carb? Obviously they can't check internals, but wondering how '66 it needs to look on the outside

[oldguy668]

I have an email from DEP that says I only need the block.