I have my donor!

[thebeerbaron]

A friend needed to get rid of the 2002 WRX wagon he's owned since new. He's taken really good care of the mechanicals, but the exterior has suffered at the hands of parking lot idiots, and the interior is made of dog hair (held together with a generous dose of dog slobber). It's already got a Cobb "Stage 1" ECU map and the associated AccessPort, and a nice ProSport muffler. Other than that and a Subaru boost gauge, it's pretty much as delivered. With good maintenance and an intelligent, adult owner, it seemed like a no brainer, so I bought it and drove it home Sunday.

This was supposed to be a much happier announcement, but while returning from having the car safety inspected yesterday (and paying sales tax and registration to NY), the CEL came on and the temperature pegged. Details are here on NAISOC (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2169062). Short story - I lost all my coolant! I think I fixed the problem and it's running now, but has a misfire. So now instead of having a beater I can park in NYC and thrash around this summer, I may have a melted lump of engine. This was supposed to have been simple and I'm annoyed that now it is not.

If any of you WRXperts can read the other post and give me some insight, I'd really appreciate it.

But for now I have a car that has a lot of salable parts and not too much rust. I still have $500 left in the $5000 budget Factory Five envisioned and I haven't even started selling off parts yet. I'm hoping to avoid a new engine, but that would not be the end of the world, though it would obviously put me over-budget. And I'm stoked that I know the full service history of this car and I know it hasn't been abused (except for this stupid coolant incident).

I haven't lifted the car in the air to get good underbody shots, but here's what it looks like as it sits now. 111k on the odometer, FWIW.

147114741470147214731475

[crobin4]

Congrats, have a similar situation. Welcome to the Subie club.
I got mine for $3200 with 55,000 mi. about 2.5 yrs ago.

[thebeerbaron]

Dang, you got a great deal! How'd you pull that one off?

[PhyrraM]

Nice. Looks perfect!

I wouldn't worry too much about the coolant loss. The 2.0 seems to be much more tolerant and durable than the 2.5 in that regard. Likely worst case is head gaskets.

Have fun driving it while we wait for the kit.

[BrandonDrums]

Nice. Looks perfect!

I wouldn't worry too much about the coolant loss. The 2.0 seems to be much more tolerant and durable than the 2.5 in that regard. Likely worst case is head gaskets.

Have fun driving it while we wait for the kit.

Not head-gaskets, he'd have through indication of oil/water exchange. As the guy said on NASIOC, it's a bad thermostat probably. Something might have smacked the assembly which also resulted in the clamp failing. It's also possible that the OEM radiator got busted in the process, the plastic caps will loosen if the pressure gets too high. If the Thermostat went bad and allowed the engine to get too hot, the pressure could have easily gotten high enough to spring a leak in the radiator plastic by bending the little aluminum tabs that hold it on.

Of course, that being said a head gasket failure would also increase water temp and place strain on the rad but I'm confident you'd see more exhaust smoke and oil/water exchange and you wouldn't have to guess. Flat engines will show symptoms of a head gasket failure since gravity just works constantly on those seals.

The CEL is likely from the car seeing some pinging/dieseling when the engine temps got a bit high. No big deal unless those were pings under high load which you confirmed they weren't.

Pressure test the cooling system after tossing a new thermostat in there. Change the oil asap and stay out of boost until you get the coolant level stable.

Also be sure to check all of the clamps on the upper reservoir near the turbo. If the guy you bought it from ever changed injectors or the turbo, he had to remove that little tank and it's difficult to get all the hoses attached correctly.

No worries, you'll be just fine I'm sure.

[MurrayT]

Coolant leaks have cost me about $10,000 with two previous cars. Stock temperature gauges don't provide enough visual warning, especially if the vehicle is being driven by a new driver that has not become acclimated to the cars instruments. To protect my new one ton diesel truck from overheat problems I installed an AutoMeter#3654 SportComp II ProControl Water Temperature gauge. It can be programmed to activate other devices at two different set points. I have mine set to activate a flashing LED and Buzzer at 220 degrees. The other set point activates my Snow Water/Meth Injection System at 190 degrees. These gauges really give piece of mind. They have also come down $100 since I bought mine two years ago. I also have a similar Trans Temp gauge that activates the auxiliary Trans Cooler Fan at 160 degrees and another set of flashing LEDs and Buzzer at 200 degrees. I am so impressed, I may install this Water Temp gauge with my RadioShack LEDs and Buzzer on all my cars.

[crobin4]

Dang, you got a great deal! How'd you pull that one off?

A guy I race with "rolled" it in an inclement weather accident.

[MDRex]

Congrats. Probably not a big deal on the coolant issue. Have fun once you get it up a running again.

[thebeerbaron]

I got the cooling system buttoned up, filled, and burped this morning and took it for a little spin this afternoon. Only one small hiccup towards warm, but other than that all seemed OK. Whew. Will replace the thermostat, do a pressure test, change the oil, and try a compression test before I start using it. It'll be a few weeks before I get a chance to do this all.

In the meantime -

As a "unbiased" reviewer of the WRX as a donor, here are some thoughts. Take them as you will.


The donor power steering will be far too light for the 818. I think it's incredibly light on the WRX. If people really want power steering, I suspect it will have to be aftermarket. The Subaru has as much weight on the front wheels as an entire 818. With half or less of that weight on the front wheels of the 818, there will be zero feel.
The WRX seats would not be a terrible thing to have in the 818 cockpit. Quite comfortable, don't look all that heavy. I believe there are airbags in them, you could probably lose several pounds by (carefully) ripping them out.
With the addition of a few ancillary gauges (boost, oil pressure/temp), the stock gauge pod would work just fine in the dash of an 818.
I do not like the WRX shifter. This one has a dealer-installed short-shift kit, which results in short throws but the action is not as rifle-tight as the Miata shifter. I know the repackaging will be difficult, hopefully Jim spends a lot of time here so that the shifting is no worse than the donor. I've gotten used to the WRX shifter a bit and am warming up to it, but it has a high standard to match.
The NA engine is going to be an excellent choice for those without a death wish.


More when I think of them. Or ask me for my "unbiased" opinion on something you've been wondering.

Also, I want to note that it will be very difficult for me to keep from putting a turbo-back exhaust on this thing and going to the next-stage AccessPort map while I'm waiting for the 818 :)

[readymix]

Some tips:

Change your oil. I've been running Rotella T 5w40HD and haven't had an issue. There's about a dozen cars locally that have been crapping blocks running the Mobil1 5w30 Synth. Just avoid it. It is nice oil till about 2000 miles after the change, at which point it turns to water. Alot of the spun rod bearings on the 2.0Ls in our area are due to crappy oil. Amsoil is good too.

[crackedcornish]

you lucky dog...I haven't found a WRX that's drivable in my area (of any year in the acceptable range) for less than $10,000 yet.

I haven't started searching for salvageable wrecks yet...and probably won't until a list of needed parts becomes available to us, so I know what I'm looking for in the way of the expensive bits.

[PhyrraM]

I got the cooling system buttoned up, .... all seemed OK.

Nice.


The donor power steering will be far too light for the 818. I think it's incredibly light on the WRX. If people really want power steering, I suspect it will have to be aftermarket. The Subaru has as much weight on the front wheels as an entire 818. With half or less of that weight on the front wheels of the 818, there will be zero feel.

Don't forget that suspension geometry is also a part of that, especially kingpin inclination and castor. I'm sure Jim will have it all covered pretty well, but it won't be WRX settings. I don't think even autocrosser will need power steering, but if they do you can install restrictors in the P/S pump outet to regulate pressure.



The WRX seats would not be a terrible thing to have in the 818 cockpit. Quite comfortable, don't look all that heavy. I believe there are airbags in them, you could probably lose several pounds by (carefully) ripping them out.

Yup, agree. Other than the way they look, the '02-'03 seats are pretty darn good.



With the addition of a few ancillary gauges (boost, oil pressure/temp), the stock gauge pod would work just fine in the dash of an 818.

'04+ has the tach in the middle, and at least '04s will plug and play with the '02-'03 wiring. '05+ may be different as far as wiring, but will also have the tach in the middle.


I do not like the WRX shifter. This one has a dealer-installed short-shift kit, which results in short throws but the action is not as rifle-tight as the Miata shifter. I know the repackaging will be difficult, hopefully Jim spends a lot of time here so that the shifting is no worse than the donor. I've gotten used to the WRX shifter a bit and am warming up to it, but it has a high standard to match.

Same. I have no idea how Jim and FFR are going to retain (or improve) shift feel with a long linkage. Here's to hoping....



The NA engine is going to be an excellent choice for those without a death wish.

And some folks were wondering why I suggested a N/A build.


.. ask me for my "unbiased" opinion on something you've been wondering.

After you've got some miles on it, I'm curious as to what you think about the powerband and how it relates to gearing. I've already stated just revving it higher is cool for me, wonder if you'll agree.



Also, I want to note that it will be very difficult for me to keep from putting a turbo-back exhaust on this thing and going to the next-stage AccessPort map while I'm waiting for the 818 :)

KEEP THE GOAL IN MIND! (WRX parts do have good resale.........)

[BrandonDrums]

Dang it! PhyrraM beat me to it.

I put a castor kit (anti-lift kit) on my car and it reallly fixed the light steering problem. I'm hoping FFR will provide the adjustable upper control arm for this kit like the 65 roadster so you can dial in a good amount of castor to improve the feedback and dynamic camber for this car, it will be important.

As for the turboback, you can just as easily get an ERZ up and downpipe and go stage 2.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/02-07-SUBARU-IMPREZA-WRX-STI-DOWN-PIPE-DOWNPIPE-EXHASUT-/190524204544?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Submodel%3AWRX&hash=item2c5c20a600#ht_5338wt_968

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/02-06-SUBARU-IMPREZA-WRX-STI-TURBO-UP-PIPE-UPPIPE-05-06-/360313936973?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item53e4625c4d#ht_4016wt_1165

For you, I don't think it's a big deal to get the cheapest ones out there since it's just temporary. The OEM up and down pipes have 1 and 2 catalytic converters in them respectively. CAT material sells for high-dollar at recyclers these days. You can easily sell those on nasioc or just recycle them and earn back the entire cost to buy the ebay pipes (which do work, mine are ERZ brand and I've run them for 6 years now no issues).

Keep the goal in mind yes but when it's a free upgrade minus an install job what's keeping you back?

[BrandonDrums]

Oh yes, I forgot. Mazda gearboxes are the best out there. I've done everything there is to do to fix the play in the shifter on my Subaru, it's never going to be a Miata gearbox. Subaru can improve the vagueness of the shifter on their chassis by just improving the mounting geometry and bushings. But the clean floaty feel is actually due to the additional play the shift forks have in the transmission.

[thebeerbaron]

Right, for some reason I had it in my head that caster was only related to on-center feel and not steering weight. I was wrong. Since the 818 is going to turn the front suspension into wishbones, it should be really easy to control all the alignment specs, including caster. I still don't think that power steering is going to be a must-have for this application.

Phyrram - I've been learning about that powerband, still not quite "getting" it. I hit one perfect on-boost to on-boost shift, that felt pretty great. But honestly, on the roads I've driven it, it would just be suicide (or homicide) to drive it that hard. Let me get back to you on that one.

Oh, one more thing I thought of -


The brakes are not all that awesome. Of course, this is on a car that just failed inspection because of worn pads, so maybe I'll change my tune when I fix that issue and give them a good bleed. Pretty sure I'll go with some cheap StopTechs for now and screw around with different setups when my 818 is finished. Two questions - will we even want the brake booster on the 818 and would the ABS work without it?


Edit:

And to both PhyrraM and Brandon - thanks for being enablers. Honestly, the last thing I need to be doing is tinkering with the donor. Now that I think about it, I have no interest in trying to remove those turbo-to-anything fasteners with the engine in the car. If I have to do it once to pull the engine, that will be once too many.

[readymix]

Right, for some reason I had it in my head that caster was only related to on-center feel and not steering weight. I was wrong. Since the 818 is going to turn the front suspension into wishbones, it should be really easy to control all the alignment specs, including caster. I still don't think that power steering is going to be a must-have for this application.

Phyrram - I've been learning about that powerband, still not quite "getting" it. I hit one perfect on-boost to on-boost shift, that felt pretty great. But honestly, on the roads I've driven it, it would just be suicide (or homicide) to drive it that hard. Let me get back to you on that one.

Oh, one more thing I thought of -


The brakes are not all that awesome. Of course, this is on a car that just failed inspection because of worn pads, so maybe I'll change my tune when I fix that issue and give them a good bleed. Pretty sure I'll go with some cheap StopTechs for now and screw around with different setups when my 818 is finished. Two questions - will we even want the brake booster on the 818 and would the ABS work without it?


Edit:

And to both PhyrraM and Brandon - thanks for being enablers. Honestly, the last thing I need to be doing is tinkering with the donor. Now that I think about it, I have no interest in trying to remove those turbo-to-anything fasteners with the engine in the car. If I have to do it once to pull the engine, that will be once too many.

Braided stainless lines to the calipers helps alot, they're about 100-150 a set. But it firms up the pedal feel a bit.

[BrandonDrums]

Right, for some reason I had it in my head that caster was only related to on-center feel and not steering weight. I was wrong. Since the 818 is going to turn the front suspension into wishbones, it should be really easy to control all the alignment specs, including caster. I still don't think that power steering is going to be a must-have for this application.

Phyrram - I've been learning about that powerband, still not quite "getting" it. I hit one perfect on-boost to on-boost shift, that felt pretty great. But honestly, on the roads I've driven it, it would just be suicide (or homicide) to drive it that hard. Let me get back to you on that one.

Oh, one more thing I thought of -


The brakes are not all that awesome. Of course, this is on a car that just failed inspection because of worn pads, so maybe I'll change my tune when I fix that issue and give them a good bleed. Pretty sure I'll go with some cheap StopTechs for now and screw around with different setups when my 818 is finished. Two questions - will we even want the brake booster on the 818 and would the ABS work without it?


Edit:

And to both PhyrraM and Brandon - thanks for being enablers. Honestly, the last thing I need to be doing is tinkering with the donor. Now that I think about it, I have no interest in trying to remove those turbo-to-anything fasteners with the engine in the car. If I have to do it once to pull the engine, that will be once too many.


Not sure where you're going about the tinkering statement. I might suggest that tinkering is exactly what you need to do to learn the platform. Building a kit car is no small task and the more you know about the ins and outs of the car, the faster you can get your 818 on the road when it gets here. Otherwise you'll be stuck in the garage for over a year trying to figure out how to re-mount the top-mount intercooler or getting that last bolt off the "green bracket of death"

Up-pipe and Down-pipe is easy. I can switch out my DP in 30 min including the time to jack up the car. Up pipe is a bit more time consuming but worth the effort, that part WILL stay on the 818.

I recommend SS brake lines, honestly the brakes are too small for the car but good pads help fix that. Hawk HPS or HPS+ will solve some of the issues as well.

The mushy pedal feel is from a 2 stage booster which steals a lot of feedback from the system. Not sure how to fix it without swapping the unit.

[thebeerbaron]

Not sure where you're going about the tinkering statement. I might suggest that tinkering is exactly what you need to do to learn the platform. Building a kit car is no small task and the more you know about the ins and outs of the car, the faster you can get your 818 on the road when it gets here. Otherwise you'll be stuck in the garage for over a year trying to figure out how to re-mount the top-mount intercooler or getting that last bolt off the "green bracket of death"

Tinkering is money and more importantly to me, time and frustration. The garage where I do my work is 90 minutes from where I live. I either have to take a train and bum a ride at the other end, or drive the WRX there and back. I have a better plan for building the 818, but it's not happening right now. And the garage is in the middle of nowhere, so snapping a fastener or otherwise screwing up requires further assistance if I'm working on my only car. I agree that learning the ins and outs is great, I'm with you there. But things like timing belt, cam cover gaskets, clutch, are all 100% easier after you've removed the engine from the body. I'm already wondering if I'll save that front cross member or just sawz-all it off to get at the engine :)

I'm planning to make my teardown and build into a nice blog, like I'm doing with the design contest. I'm sure I'll do some bonehead things, but hopefully my failures will keep others from falling into the same traps.


Up-pipe and Down-pipe is easy. I can switch out my DP in 30 min including the time to jack up the car. Up pipe is a bit more time consuming but worth the effort, that part WILL stay on the 818.

My concern about anything exhaust related at this point is I think that exhaust fasteners are the devil, especially if they've been exposed to the heat of a turbo for 111k miles. I don't want to go around snapping things and having to do the drill-and-retap thing with the engine on the car.


I recommend SS brake lines, honestly the brakes are too small for the car but good pads help fix that. Hawk HPS or HPS+ will solve some of the issues as well.
I hear you. My 818 will go stainless, but until I know whether the lines will be reused, I'm not going to drop money on them. This car is a 100% beater until then. A well-maintained beater, but still not something I'm going to spend a dime more than I have to on.


The mushy pedal feel is from a 2 stage booster which steals a lot of feedback from the system. Not sure how to fix it without swapping the unit.

This is excellent information. As I said above, I really wonder if we'll even need boosted brakes, and whether that choice will affect the use or non-use of the stock ABS stuff. Reminds me I need to look at how to bleed ABS brakes, never bleed one of these here fancy cars.

As an addendum, I want to make it clear that I'm not dissing the WRX for the fun of it. I have a distinct idea in mind of what I think a 1800lb sports car should behave like and how its interfaces (power, brakes, steering) should feel.

The best steering feel I've ever driven was a Tesla Roadster. Good god was that perfect. I'd love if the 818 could duplicate it. Heavy without requiring Terminator-size muscles. Telepathic response and feedback like you were running your fingers over the tarmac.

The Tesla also wins in the engine category, but no IC engine is going to touch that. The WRX was a lot of fun until it dropped coolant. Ask me again next week after I've had some time to drive it.

I'm going out tomorrow (market holiday) to pressure-test the cooling system, replace the thermostat, and replace pads and rotors at all four corners. How's that for learning the car?

[thebeerbaron]

It's bad. At least headgaskets, who knows what else.

I spent a day and a half working on the damn thing. I replaced the thermostat, thinking that was the problem. The second bolt on the thermostat rounded off (I was using a 6 point socket, wtf?!) and required drilling and an EZ-out. First time one of those has ever lived up to its name. Got that squared away, changed the oil, replaced rotors and pads at all four corners.

Start the thing, everything is OK. Then white smoke starts appearing. But it's light, and it's cold and rainy out, and it doesn't smell sweet. Wrong. A few hundred yard test drive (after warming up for 20 minutes without issue), temp starts to peg, lots of white smoke. Park it. Now it won't restart.

I'm... frustrated.

On another note -

I must take back what I've previously said about WRX brakes. Turns out the discs that were on the front were a size too small. I don't know what they fit, but they are smaller in diameter than the new ones. There was some very odd pad wear from where the pad wasn't touching anything! So now that's fixed, the correct-size rotor is on and the pad makes full contact with the rotor. I didn't even get a chance to bed the brakes in, so we'll see what happens once the car runs again.

I'm going to go have beers.

[readymix]

It's bad. At least headgaskets, who knows what else.

I spent a day and a half working on the damn thing. I replaced the thermostat, thinking that was the problem. The second bolt on the thermostat rounded off (I was using a 6 point socket, wtf?!) and required drilling and an EZ-out. First time one of those has ever lived up to its name. Got that squared away, changed the oil, replaced rotors and pads at all four corners.

Start the thing, everything is OK. Then white smoke starts appearing. But it's light, and it's cold and rainy out, and it doesn't smell sweet. Wrong. A few hundred yard test drive (after warming up for 20 minutes without issue), temp starts to peg, lots of white smoke. Park it. Now it won't restart.

I'm... frustrated.

On another note -

I must take back what I've previously said about WRX brakes. Turns out the discs that were on the front were a size too small. I don't know what they fit, but they are smaller in diameter than the new ones. There was some very odd pad wear from where the pad wasn't touching anything! So now that's fixed, the correct-size rotor is on and the pad makes full contact with the rotor. I didn't even get a chance to bed the brakes in, so we'll see what happens once the car runs again.

I'm going to go have beers.

Pull the cap on the coolant overflow bottle, and the cap on the top of the radiator. It helps if you use a flashlight for this. It also helps if the car has been sitting for a while. First thing in the morning is likely best. You are looking for oil floating on the surface of the coolant. If it is, your headgaskets are likely shot. And swapping them out is a huge pain in the *** as you need two of them, and the heads are bolted on sideways and are difficult to remove with the engine in the car. My suggestion to you, if you see oil in the coolant, drain the coolant, change the oil, and park it till you are ready for the project. Or if you are feeling froggy, tear into it. When replacing the headgaskets, I suggest you get new valve cover gaskets, spark plug tube gaskets, and valve cover bolt gasketry, and "half moons" (any good subaru parts dealer will know what you mean). You've got it open, and it's never a good idea to reuse that rubber. With the heads off, it's also a great time to recheck valve lash. On the 02-03 (and some early 04's) they used shimmed buckets. 04+ uses a shimless bucket.