Gary's 818SEx4

[Gary Livingston]

Hello everyone. I'm from Southern Ontario, Canada, about an hour from Toronto. I hope it's not too early to start this thread. I will be doing something pretty unconventional. 818SEx4 means model S of course. Electric. AWD. I haven't found anyone else doing an AWD yet so, not too much help there. I can't brag about being a racing guy. I've never been on a track. . .other than go-carts and some 1/4 mile fun. I can't even say I'm a Subaru guy. I do think they are awesome cars, but I've never owned one and know very little about them. I'm starting to learn from reading on this site though. My mechanical skills are pretty good though. I've rebuilt just about everything on a car at least once. . . somethings many times. lol. Not so much transmissions, but plenty of engine jobs and the rest. I'll be doing most of this myself I expect, although I do have an offer from someone to help. I tend to do all my projects solo for some reason. I'm sure I will have plenty of questions and please jump in to offer suggestions, I'm not offended easily. I'm still learning every day. I've been involved with the electric thing for a number of years now (not nearly as long as Bob n Cincy). I've done several builds, all with DC series wound motors so far. I've done 9", 11" and 13" motors. Mated to standard transmissions, clutchless, and direct drive/overdrive versions. I also own and drive a Chevy Volt and have almost 100,000 km on it now. It is AC drive of course. I've also messed with a lot of different batteries over the years. Testing and building packs. I hope I don't run into any major snags.
My background is Welding Engineering and I am also a Journeyman Welder. I work for Magna, in the Cosma group, automotive factory (we actually make most of the Volt under body). I spent many years working in a frame plant and have a fair bit of experience with frame prototyping, welding and automation.

As for the car, I picked it up already.

[Gary Livingston]

I was surprised and glad to get one of the first red bodies. I just read about it a week before I went. I asked but they figured I would probably get white. :)

I picked up my donor just yesterday. Its a 2004 Impreza Sport. I don't need the motor or transmission, so I waited until I found one with major mechanical problems which equals a lower price. $900 ducats. I should have been able to get one for 500 or 600 but oh well, I couldn't wait any longer. Unfortunately, I don't have anything started yet to show.

Us Canadians must buy a "starter kit" meaning not complete and source some of the components through a third party. (Dont ask) Anyways, my "completion kit" is en route so I will be able to get started soon. Also, I got my frame uncoated, since I will be doing major mods to the front and some to the rear also. I plan to actually fit all the suspension, hubs etc before they are cleaned up in order to flesh out my frame mods and motor mounts etc. Then I will finish weld, disassemble and get coated while I clean up the suspension parts.

[AZPete]

Welcome to the madness, Gary. In your posts about batteries I'm stumbling to understand what you are talking about so you must know a lot about the things, though I think electricity is all bogus because I can't see it. And, you were smart enough to wear a red shirt to pick up your red 818.

[Gary Livingston]

Thank you Pete. :) Yes, if I can't see it . . . it must not be there. Then again, it does bite. . . hard.

I have all my major components except the battery for this car. I have it pretty much narrowed down though. The performance should be pretty good. I have a chart, but I must upload from my other computer.

[Frank818]

Too bad you didn't start 6 months earlier, I always dreamed of an electric AWD 818, but since no one was close to that and with enough power (in 400whp range, which is what, 300-350kw?) I decided to ditch that idea and went another route, still less traveled lolll, but not my preferred idea.

I'll keep an eye on your build. Make it good, make it powerful, make it stable, make it reliable, make it beautiful, hell make it like you like! :)

[Jaime]

I converted Gary's chart to horsepower. You'll be a quite a bit short of 400 with any of those motors.

http://i871.photobucket.com/albums/ab273/jaime398/818%20Build/ElectricPower_zpsdf52d4f2.png

BTW, the blue one has a very unusual power output curve.

[Gary Livingston]

Thanks Frank. I'll do my best.

Jaime, yes. . . but even though a hp is a hp is a hp, with electric hp, it seems that when comparing to ICE, it's often about half for the same performance. This is due to the torque characteristic, which is really what moves the car. ICE's are typically rated at peak HP and Torque which occurs somewhere through the rpm range. Electric tends to be max from zero and extends pretty flat to some point where CEMF starts to carve it back. My electric motors are rated at 100kw each which is about 134hp so, 268 hp total.. . which is what your graph shows. The torque numbers though, tell a different story. To compete with 442 lb-ft with an ICE, it would require much more peak (rated hp). Some of you would know better than I what that may be. Probably north of 500, I would think?

The blue one is the HPEV 35x2 which is what Eric used in his 33Machine. Nice set up also.

So, I thought I should mention, my Borg Warner transmissions a a single speed 6.54:1 ratio. So, thats 2,890 lb-ft torque available to the wheels.

[Gary Livingston]

BTW, how do I get my picture posts to show up large like Jaime's???:confused:

[Jaime]

Use a third party image hosting service like PhotoBucket. When you add the image to the post, make sure to uncheck "Retrieve remote file and reference locally".

[Gary Livingston]

Thanks Jaime!! :D
Does it cost anything to use Photobucket?

[Jaime]

To compete with 442 lb-ft with an ICE, it would require much more peak (rated hp). Some of you would know better than I what that may be. Probably north of 500, I would think?
I'm not so convinced about that now that I've seen it laid out as a horsepower to RPM graph. You can get 2890 to the rear wheel from a 268HP ICE pretty easily. Here's my math:

First, the engine. Here is a plot of a 2015 WRX, which makes about 268HP. It's the lower of the three:
http://blogs.cobbtuning.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2012WRXSFIntake.png
It make about 260ft-lbs of torque at 4200 rpm.
My TY754VBAAA transmission has a 3.166 first gear reduction ratio, so that's 823.16 ft-lbs at the output shaft.
It has a 4.444 final drive, so that makes about 3650 ft-lbs at the wheel.
At 20% clutch slip, you get right around your 2890 to the wheel.

So, to match a 268HP electric with a 268HP ICE right off the line, just launch at 4200 rpm and be good with the clutch. From that point forward, you'll never be under 4200 rpm, so the "torque advantage" of the electric will never exist.

[Jaime]

Photobucket is free, but you get ads. For a couple dollars a month you can eliminate ads and not worry about bandwidth. With the free account, there is always the possibility that if an image of your becomes really popular, Photobucket will show an "over bandwidth" image instead of yousr for the rest of the month. It's never happened to me from posting on this site.

[Lumpyguy]

Good luck Gary, Look forward to see the end result.

[Kalstar]

I can't wait. I soooooooo wanted to go this route but the path less traveled had to many prickers or me. I will be watching close.

[Gary Livingston]

OK. Perhaps. Just remember that the ICE only possesses these numbers at peak... they are not sustained. Also, there is no shift loss timing. There have been quite a few comparisons made over the years and it seems to hold pretty true. Have you ever rode in an electric performance car? It's pretty different. Traction is another thing of course. I didn't mention this before, but I am a Regional Director for NEDRA. I can't brag about being a big drag racer, but I've been in the community for a few years. The electrics are starting to make some impressive numbers for what they are. Guys like John Metric running low 9's with two 10 hp (rated continuous) DC series wound motors in a Miata. Also Larry McBride riding the Rocket bike to a plus 200mph quarter at 7 seconds. lol. The first 60ft is pretty crazy.

[Gary Livingston]

I'm actually surprised to hear this from you and Frank. I never imagined anyone would want to go down my crazy path. It's encouraging for me.. I have many reasons to be in the electric world, not all of them shared by the average guy. This the future.
As for straight performance, I actually own all of the components to make this 818 a 9 second 1/4 mile car, other than the specific battery. But I know what that is and how to build it also. I chose the AC route as it is much more refined and able to sustain higher average hp output due to water cooling and efficiency. My motors are the same ones used in the Powerphase 145, just different controllers. I hope to eventually figure out how to take advantage of the motors peak capability for short durations. The motors could do 290kw now and likely peak to well over 350 combined, I think. Bob's Siemens motor has a very similar curve to one of my PP100 motors, in fact it is almost exactly the same. He will be peaking it much higher though with his home made controller. This is what I am referring to..

Program-ability is another sweet advantage. I can simply program the regen rate of front and rear, the acceleration slew rate for traction control etc, and a plethora of other parameters. How about a valet mode (not that I would loan this thing out. . .) to limit power. . . that sort of thing.

Cheers,

[Gary Livingston]

Thanks Lumpy. :) I appreciate that.

[Jaime]

The electrics are starting to make some impressive numbers for what they are. Guys like John Metric running low 9's with two 10 hp (rated continuous) DC series wound motors in a Miata. Also Larry McBride riding the Rocket bike to a plus 200mph quarter at 7 seconds. lol. The first 60ft is pretty crazy.
I know electrics are fast. However, my opinion is that they are fast because the second part of the power curve is constant HP. With a nice big 5000 rpm zone of constant horsepower, you can shift fewer times.

It's torque at the axle that matters. If you do the math you'll see that at a given wheel speed, torque at the axle is directly proportional to powerplant horsepower (regardless of drivetrain) and has no fixed relationship to powerplant torque.

[Gary Livingston]

I agree that it is torque at the axles that matters. They are fast because of the constant, flat torque from zero up to some number depending on the motor. . . as compared to ICE where the torque takes some time to come on. In the Electric world, we call it the EV grin. Conversely, they are often reeled back in closer to the end of the 1/4 mile. It's this incredible feeling that is hard to describe. Anyways, this isn't the place to beat it to death.
There are several examples of electric cars with half the horsepower having acceleration events as fast or faster than 1000 hp Bugatti Veyrons. . .

[riptide motorsport]

Please please post a detailed build thread, I'm an idiot who would love the copy your build. I don't have the knowledge and would .,love to copy you.....many thanks. Steven.

[Gary Livingston]

Please please post a detailed build thread, I'm an idiot who would love the copy your build. I don't have the knowledge and would .,love to copy you.....many thanks. Steven.

Thanks Steven. I will try and be specific. If there is something I glossed over, please ask. Suggestions are welcome also. . . as I will have quite a few myself, I'm sure. I will be doing some disassembly soon and also some first pass assembly of the spindles and control arms. This will all be in an effort to flesh out the frame mods required to mount the motor and achieve drive capability in the front end, which should prove to be rather challenging.

[Frank818]

Gary, I am probably way ahead in my thinking (as a pioneer), but if someday you can come up with an electric solution up front for those with a petrol engine so that they can add your solution to the front of their 818, count me down to buy your solution. Like I said, I am waaaaaaaaaayy ahead of time right now, but let's see how things move on for you.

[Gary Livingston]

Gary, I am probably way ahead in my thinking (as a pioneer), but if someday you can come up with an electric solution up front for those with a petrol engine so that they can add your solution to the front of their 818, count me down to buy your solution. Like I said, I am waaaaaaaaaayy ahead of time right now, but let's see how things move on for you.

Frank, that's really what I am doing now. I have two separate drive systems. The one in the back could be ICE powered or Electric, doesn't matter. It would add some weight to the car though obviously. It would depend how much power and how much electric range you would want.

[Frank818]

It would depend how much power and how much electric range you would want.

Enough to smoke the McLaren that lives close by. loll Joking, I'm not aiming for that.

Need space for the batteries as well. Well then I'll keep a closer look at your front end solution once it grows. No mock-up or drawings of it, by any chance? Just to make us drool for a while. :)

[Gary Livingston]

I received my "completion kit" from Breeze (Thanks Mark!) and the few items I was missing from FFR today. So I assembled the front upper ball joints and installed the control arms. I must fit all off the suspension and drive components first. . . position the motor and egear drive, do some fabrication. Repeat the process in the rear but it will be a cake walk back there. Then disassemble everything and get things painted.
I wish I had the CAD model of the frame, then I could do a nice design mod in SolidWorks. I know EVWest modeled it also when they did Eric's car. I could measure and recreate it but that's a ton of work, that I am not really too keen on. I'm not that fast on SolidWorks since I don't use it everyday.
The easiest way to maintain the geometry is to fab up what you need in addition to what exists, with some planning for distortion control,. . . then cut out what is in the way. Since I won't be doing any FEA analysis, it will be slightly over designed.
The front shock mount will have to move and a good chunk of the main upright will have to get excised. Several hours of trials, fitment, shifting and scratching my thick head. . . I'm pretty sure most of the drive will have to sit forward of the cross car wheel line. I was hoping that I could tuck it closer to the firewall. . . but it doesn't appear that way. I won't know for sure until I get some assembly work done up there. Don't worry, I will take some pictures. :rolleyes:

[Gary Livingston]

What's the thinking regarding the sway bar that comes from the rear of the donor and goes in the front of 818? I see some folks not using it and even removing the bracketry. . I think Rasmus did this for weight savings. Are the folks who remove it, using anything in it's place for weight transfer? I may need the space. . . will have to see. Sway bars may be mounted in different locations I believe as long as the links are correct and bar orientation is maintained.

[Gary Livingston]

Well then I'll keep a closer look at your front end solution once it grows. No mock-up or drawings of it, by any chance? Just to make us drool for a while. :)

Here are a few shots of mucking around to see how things could fit. Please excuse the ugly, rusty components. This first pass is just for fitment and fleshing out the general arrangement. I knew that I would have to move the shock mounting. . . probably rearwards, and it looks now to be the case. If I am lucky, I will just move the forward top bracket the same distance aft of the other and build a LCA mount slightly and partially off the side of it. As for the motor gearbox. I wanted so desperately to get this unit tucked closer to the firewall . . . but I don't think that is going to happen. I believe this CV joint has a design limit of 50 degrees (I think it is a "fixed ball UF joint", although it could be the AC version at 47 degrees). Anyways, I can get within this number without cutting things up too much. . . but I'm leaning towards some surgery to get it closer to 35. . . I think I can hit this number. Here are a few pics...

[Frank818]

How much does the front engine weigh? It looks very huge and heavy.

[rtz]

It's only 110 lb (50 kg)

http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=UQM100

[Gary Livingston]

ya. . . I actually weighed mine a while ago and it was just Under 100 I think. . . but that must be with the adapter and ccoupler, something like that. The motor itself is about 9" long, and the end cap adds another inch and half or so. It's just over 11" in diameter. I think it looks large because of the space I am trying to stuff it into. and the angle of the shot maybe. It is rather tight in there. I started cutting and welding already. yikes... lol Here is a shot with it almost in it's final resting place....

Darn, they keep coming out 90 degrees rotated. I opened with another app and they look correct., but when I upload here they are rotated.. argh..

[Frank818]

Lighter than I thought, keep it rolling Gary. You seem to be moving pretty fast so far, I like that.

The axles will be angled backwards wrt the "differential" (or whatever stands place of the diff)?

[Gary Livingston]

The axles will be angled backwards wrt the "differential" (or whatever stands place of the diff)?

Yes, that's correct. I did have it further to the rear and the axle was straight out.. . . but the rest of the space did not work out for the motor/egear drive...

Oh, just to clarify, the 35 or so degrees I'm shooting for is at full steering lock. It's not on much of an angle with the wheels straight.

[Gary Livingston]

I will be mounting the steering rack lower to gain a little clearance. Also, it looks like I will probably use this steering rack I kept from the Coda Car. It's new, the car had only had 4 miles on it. It's pretty light also being made for an electric car. It was used with electric power assist in the Coda . . . I do have that unit also, but I don't think I will be using it. The cools thing is that the overall length without the tie rod ends is the same. Also, the Subaru tie rod ends screw right on. :o

[Aero STI]

Any idea what the Coda rack has for a ratio?

[Gary Livingston]

Any idea what the Coda rack has for a ratio?

Thought I had better log in o answer this just in case. I discovered last night that the Coda rack won't work. The pinion is on the opposite side of the rack so when you turn the steering to the right, the wheels turn left. Yep. Damit I forgot, or didn't take note I guess when removing the rack from the Coda, the tie rods must have connected aft of the spindles instead of in front. Argh.

Another chance to fall on my sword. At least I discovered it before too much investment of time.

[billjr212]

Looking good. Can't wait to watch this progress. Makes me wonder about the potential of an 818 with the WRX motor driving the rears and a small electric motor driving the front wheels - sort of like a mini hybrid supercar. All in time, I suppose...

Edit: haha, just reread and saw posts 22 and 23 discussing this very thing.

[Gary Livingston]

Still have some details up front, but the main issues are all worked out. Few more braces to install. Steering rack has a new home. Had to clear some room for the drive shafts. Will need to make new drive shafts, looks like all 4 will be different length.

[Frank818]

Quite a lot of frame mods, but nicely done!!

I see you already cut the threads on the upper A-arms?

[metalmaker12]

Wow this is cool man. If I had the extra cake I would build one too.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Gary
Are you using the same motor and gear in the rear?
PS: I have some new axles that will match your gear box side.(electric transit connect axles)
Bob

[Gary Livingston]

Quite a lot of frame mods, but nicely done!!

I see you already cut the threads on the upper A-arms?

Thanks Frank. :) I didn't cut any threads yet although not everything is tightened up.

[Gary Livingston]

Gary
Are you using the same motor and gear in the rear?
PS: I have some new axles that will match your gear box side.(electric transit connect axles)
Bob

Hey Bob,
Yes, same setup In the back. I'll keep that in mind. I did get 4 drive shafts from the Coda cars and I have the 4 Subaru shafts plus the two shafts that com in the kit.
What I need to do is use the Coda cans I the inboard ends, the Subaru outers and get custom shafts made to connect them. The splines aren't the same and the spider bearing clusters from the Subie don fit the inner cans from the Coda. Argh. It's all doable. Just have to get custom shafts made. (For length and splines)

[rtz]

This place can make up any axles you need: http://www.driveshaftshop.com/axle-measurement

[Gary Livingston]

This place can make up any axles you need: http://www.driveshaftshop.com/axle-measurement

Hey thanks a lot rtz! I have a local shop that can do this but he's pricey. I think this will be a cheaper option!

Cheers

[ehansen007]

Man, this is insane. I can't wait to see it in motion. Are you able to torque vector? Shoot me a PM. I'd love to hear more. I just got done setting up regen on braking with the proportional valve setup and it's like having power brakes.

[Gary Livingston]

Man, this is insane. I can't wait to see it in motion. Are you able to torque vector? Shoot me a PM. I'd love to hear more. I just got done setting up regen on braking with the proportional valve setup and it's like having power brakes.

Hey Eric! Thanks man. I will have the ability to torque vector between front and rear but not each wheel.
Cool, ya that is actually a hydraulic pressure transducer which senses hydraulic pressure and outputs a variable electrical signal which your controller interprets into regen intensity ... Which is programmable as you know. (For benefit of other readers). This is what I was asking u about in your thread some months back.
Cheers!

[ehansen007]

That's right. The transducer. It's hooked into the proportioning valve. Works great. It's amazing how many parameters you can tune with the Curtis.

[Gary Livingston]

That's right. The transducer. It's hooked into the proportioning valve. Works great. It's amazing how many parameters you can tune with the Curtis.

Eric, the Curtis HPEV AC systems are just excellent drive packages. Curtis is a mature controller and does offer a plethora of info and setting. Have you seen the EVIC CAN display recently unveiled. The screens are already done for Curtis I believe in the non-touch screen version. . . with more on the way. JAck Rickard intro'd it on EVTV on last week's video. Nice dedicated HMI i'd say. I'll be customizing one of these for my ride and you would be interested by it I'm sure. You could integrate the JLD505 into also for some additional battery info. Take a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ipEzK1yzxHY#t=8548

[Gary Livingston]

I have a bunch of stuff I won't be needing in this kit also. I will have to make up a list. One thing for sure is the Turbo kit if anyone needs it. Bunch of other stuff like the fuel filler tube and I don't know what else right now. I'll probably just pay it fwd with a lot of the stuff. As long as I know it's needed. When I was ateenager, I had a guy ask me for some seats I had. I gave them to him only later to find out he sold them the same day. lol that was not kewl....lol

[rtz]

I'm sure you all have seen it; but here is a Curtis tuned to a reworked off the shelf motor: http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=6.0

[Gary Livingston]

Thought I would throw up some of the mod pics

[Gary Livingston]

I have to move the front coil overs aft to allow room for the drive axles up here. I will leave the top aft part of the mount and move the fwd one the same distance (1.5") behind it


Not sure why I am having trouble loading pics from photo bucket...... I did it before but not working now... What am I missing? Well, I got one to upload and that's it. The rest are linked below.... argh...

http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag161/Gary878/image_zps80c60354.jpg?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag161/Gary878/image_zpsd3cb92c6.jpg?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag161/Gary878/image_zpseecc3d6c.jpg?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag161/Gary878/image_zps78bbdc64.jpg
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag161/Gary878/image_zpsed47def0.jpg?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag161/Gary878/image_zpsa41439a6.jpg?t=1419702118

Now to find a home for the lower bracket

Test location. . .http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag161/Gary878/image_zpsa41439a6.jpg?t=1419702118
Nope that won't work...
This works....
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag161/Gary878/image_zps2761edb7.jpg?t=1419702118

Clearance on both extremes of turning....

http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag161/Gary878/image_zpsa6c24153.jpg?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag161/Gary878/image_zpsa6c24153.jpg?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag161/Gary878/image_zps0140dabb.jpg

Of course I still need to brace up the lower mount bracket.

[metalmaker12]

That works, looking good man, I wanna see this thing first hand. My 818 is almost back together, and this is making me want to build something like this one day.

[Gary Livingston]

Thanks man. I was starting to wonder if anyone was getting anything out of my messed up iPhone pics and posts.

What did you have your 818 apart for? Sorry I haven't been keeping up with the threads.

[Scargo]

Nice work and really nice MIG welding. Are you making your own brackets? This is a dilemma I face. I know Allstar, Speedway and others offer some but I long for the ability to farm out brackets to a fab shop that can laser or waterjet cut them just as I need them. I used to do a tad of CAD but that was a long time ago and I am reluctant to put the time, money and energy into that right now when I could easily hand them a piece of cardboard or pencil drawing that represents the part. Any advice as to what direction I should go? I don't have anything to bend with either, except the good 'ol vise.

[Gary Livingston]

Nice work and really nice MIG welding. Are you making your own brackets? This is a dilemma I face. I know Allstar, Speedway and others offer some but I long for the ability to farm out brackets to a fab shop that can laser or waterjet cut them just as I need them. I used to do a tad of CAD but that was a long time ago and I am reluctant to put the time, money and energy into that right now when I could easily hand them a piece of cardboard or pencil drawing that represents the part. Any advice as to what direction I should go? I don't have anything to bend with either, except the good 'ol vise.

Thanks Sargo. Yeah, I just make my own typically. That flat piece for the shock mount was done with a zip wheel on an angle grinder from flat stock. The outer shape was traced. I use transfer punches a lot for getting holes right if it's from another piece. I did that in this case from the piece I cut off. Then I just drilled the holes on a drill press. There is very little you can't make with these methods. There are shops that do custom laser cutting, but it's expensive for what you get. . .when u can just make most things in a few minutes. Show me an example of something you need to make. . .that you don't think you can, and we can discuss how you may be able to.

[metalmaker12]

Thanks man. I was starting to wonder if anyone was getting anything out of my messed up iPhone pics and posts.

What did you have your 818 apart for? Sorry I haven't been keeping up with the threads.

Had a bad piston and head gasket issue do to heat soak and pre detnonation.

[Gary Livingston]

Had a bad piston and head gasket issue do to heat soak and pre detnonation.

Ooops. Was the ignition timing too much advanced? Or perhaps compression a bit high for the octane rating of the fuel?

[Gary Livingston]

and same on the RH side....

[Gary Livingston]

Removed the rear hubs (in -28C wind chill!) and installed for mock up. Rear motor and EGear drive sitting close to home location.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Gary
Your rear motor set up is similar to mine.
See
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?11241-Bob-and-Mike-s-818Se-Build-Thread&p=134077&viewfull=1#post134077

I have some extra axles for the BW gear box.
Bob

[Gary Livingston]

Hey Bob, yes, I remember that pic. . or one like it. How is your build going?? HAve you been working on it?

Regards,
Gary

[Speedy G]

How did I miss your build!??! Nice one! Mmmm... you're tempting me. I thought about 4wd but wasn't sure what to do about the front suspension, and I can't weld like you. Nice, very nice welds. The space is there for the motor, but now I'm wondering where you'll be fitting the batteries. My motors go one on top of the other so there's less "floor" space taken up. From the looks of it, you'll probably put them behind the seat (24), in front of the rear motor (24 x 2 levels), 12 in the center channel, and maybe another 9 in front? That's around 93. How many are you thinking? What types, A123s?

Those motors are torque monsters. Did you get the 6.5:1 ratio? That would make your top speed somewhere around 150kph or 90mph. With all that torque, highway driving through traffic will be like cutting through butta (Boston accent), 1/8 miles will be impossible to beat.

Interesting take on the regen transducer. I might copy the idea. Your advantage is that you can probably do dual regen, which might be easier to bias.

[Speedy G]

double post, sorry

[Gary Livingston]

How did I miss your build!??! Nice one! Mmmm... you're tempting me. I thought about 4wd but wasn't sure what to do about the front suspension, and I can't weld like you. Nice, very nice welds. The space is there for the motor, but now I'm wondering where you'll be fitting the batteries. My motors go one on top of the other so there's less "floor" space taken up. From the looks of it, you'll probably put them behind the seat (24), in front of the rear motor (24 x 2 levels), 12 in the center channel, and maybe another 9 in front? That's around 93. How many are you thinking? What types, A123s?

Those motors are torque monsters. Did you get the 6.5:1 ratio? That would make your top speed somewhere around 150kph or 90mph. With all that torque, highway driving through traffic will be like cutting through butta (Boston accent), 1/8 miles will be impossible to beat.

Interesting take on the regen transducer. I might copy the idea. Your advantage is that you can probably do dual regen, which might be easier to bias.

Hey Speedy. Thanks man. :)
On my handheld here so forgive me if I miss something. Hopefully I won't loose it before saving! It looks like you are calculating space by assuming those 100 ah CALBs. I won't be using those. Problem there is getting a high enough C rate. That's what drove you to 100ah cells since they are only rated at 3c continuous and 10 c pulse. This is not a high performance battery although a great range battery. I haven't decided yet although I have it down to one of three options. A 20c 60ah cell, a 30c 45ah cell or a combo pack using my A123 cylindricals that are 60c pulse. All of those options afford a workable solution for battery space even though the pack number and voltage would change slightly depending on option.

Top speed is a decision for a programming limit more than anything. They publish 7700 rpm I think but these motors, like yours will do 12000. That is also the limit on the egear drive. At 6.54:1 and a 24" tire, that is 210kph or something like hat. IIRC. There are about 5 different gear ratios available for this transmission I believe.

While these drive systems are rated at 100kw each, UQM uses the same motor on the Powerphase 135 (maybe even 145, Not sure) so, by changing inverters and running entirely within motor specs there is another 100hp to be had I think. Not that I would pursue it but hey... Who knows right. ? Lol

The transducer regen works well.

[Speedy G]

I'd be a little cautious on turning this to 12,000. At least somehow check the permanent magnets in the rotor are not surface mount. There's really no other reason not to drive it to 10,000 RPM except maybe balancing. My motors are induction motors which is why they can turn higher rpms easier and why you have 94% efficiency and I have 91%.

I found the specs for both ratings btw. Half of your max torque is at 6500 which is where people usually draw the line, but a gas engine in 5th gear probably has 1/4 of the wheel torque from 1st gear so why not drive it way out there. Your max efficiency is at 5500 RPM which is best for highway driving.

I would think the difference in 100kW vs 135kW is just voltage or it's just held there artificially by pwm programming. Both drives are limited at 400A, so it can't be that. Quick math tells you 250V are needed for 100kW and 337.5V are needed for 135kW. The thing is that if you drive your egear with the 135kW motor you may break it, but then again, it's German so it might be able to take 3 x rated torque. In any case, it's an insane build, so glad you're doing it!

[Gary Livingston]

Hey Thanks Speedy. Yes, you are probably right about the RPM. To be honest, I haven't spent much time considering top speed and rpm. I have little desire or need for it. PMAC motors have some great advantages regarding power density and efficiency. . . high rpm isn't really one of them. I've studied the efficiency maps often. Max motor speed for full performance is rated at 7700 rpm. There is likely a difference in current for the 135. . . even though it doesn't say it on some docs. I found controller drawings indicating 600 amps for the 135 and even 500 amps for the 100. Not sure.

Transmissions are a challenge for any electric application. They are designed for the characteristics of an ICE. Many torque maps f0r ICE's don't even start until 1500 rpm. They peak and fall as rpm rises. Electrics have stall torques at max as you know. Characteristics can be changed in milliseconds. Thing break easily under such quick changing loads. I have a 3000 amp Shiva controller in my truck and was running a 13" DC series wound motor. I twisted a 4" larger truck drive shaft off right at the u-joint one day when I was leaving a speed shop and attempting to show off. Direct drive ratio.... no gear reduction. Not kewl. That system would put out something over 2000 ft-lbs right out of the motor. . . no gear box required. I run direct drive with a Gear Vendors OD plus a Lenco reverser in front of it.
I was tempted to put this system in the 818. hahahah for what? Would be ridiculous. That controller can do 1.2 MW. . .ya, mega watts. lmao....

That truck is too heavy and what got me to go the other extreme. Light and traction. This is one advantage for the Egear drive. You mentioned whether it would hold the 135 ouput. I don't know, but I do know that I have two of them driving one light car. Pretty tough to load them too hard for too long. One of them was in a car weighing twice as much.

Even Tesla gave up on the 2 speed gearbox they pursued for so long and failed with on several occasions with more than one vendor. Bob has seen plenty of trannys break I'm sure. Erik already broke his, on an AC build. I'm a bit worried about Nick putting that 5 speed behind his 11" DC motor, really thinking he doesn't need a trans . . or maybe just two gears. I've seen the heaviest clutches smoked off behind twin 9" motors in an electric Porsche. Another strange one. . I've seen quite a few electric 1/4 mile runners change differential gears to higher ratio and not loose any 60' times. Some even quicker.

Anyways. It's a path with comparatively few travelers. Not like ICE. Sometime I feel rather strange on this forum. . . like the ugly cousin syndrome. lol Ya, it's an 818. But motorheads like the rumble, and the smell of fuel and vibration and deafening roar of power translating to the asphalt. . . I don't even blame them. I was one. Still am some days. We all have reasons for what we do. Mine likely different than yours. . and the next fellow. But we all do have something pretty special in common in this bit of cyberspace at least. Build-on......

[Speedy G]

Nice rant! You may laugh at the next sentence. I actually tried to BUY a 2.18:1 shorty powerglide from a very reputable dragster supplier. Yeah, they build them for 3000hp. Here's what they said after I explained my idea of going direct coupled, in other words, no torque converter:


Our transmissions with that gear are only for race only vehicles, we have never driven anything like that on the street and have no idea on the lifespan of them. Most race cars have converters that absorb the “hit” on the transmission and flash in the 5000 range so we here do not like to build transmission for things other than what they were designed for , a race car.

He wouldn't give me a warranty or even sell it to me! I told him I was only pushing 330ft lbs of torque!!! Yeah I'm aware of the tranny killer tendencies these motors have. I'm assuming as you say that it's the dynamic load that kills the trannies. I'll be pulling a beamer trick. The clutch in my beamer has a maximum engagement speed so power shifts don't kill the tranny. One of the typical mods is to remove the engagement delay.

What I'm doing is tapering the control signal (i.e. gas pedal signal) so it doesn't hit so hard. I'll have different control programs, but I'm very aware that dynamic loads kill trannies. Although control is supposedly my last stage, the gas pedal signal control is something I'm already working on.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob has seen plenty of trannys break ..

Yes I have, But you might be surprised at the reason why ev transmission break.

Electric motors with big rotors have much higher inertia than ICE engines. Electric motor also don't have back pressure to slow the speed down during shifting. During shifting the synchronizers have to work much harder to speed match before engagement. The synchronizer wear out quickly and the driver starts jamming into gear. When it engages without speed match torque spike/broken teeth.

Shifting like grandma pushing the clutch complete in and not releasing until after engagement will save the transmission. Run the softest clutch you can get by with.

Shifting an EV with no clutch is a recipe for disaster. Same as above only worse.

EV with the same torque as ICE are actually easier on gears. Power out of an ICE is pulse when each cylinder fires. Every 1/2 rotation on a 4 cylinder. That's why you have springs in you clutch disk. Electric motors put out smooth torque. Actually easier on the gears.

Bob

[Speedy G]

Mmm... I'm glad you guys have more experience than I do. I don't doubt you've broken trannies and synchros, but there's one thing I don't understand. When you shift, the clutch is disengaged so the only inertia the synchros have to deal with are the inertia of the tranny shafts themselves and the clutch disc. That's pretty much what the synchros were made for. The motor inertia comes in when you engage the clutch and the shock of the engagement gets felt by the already engaged gears all the way to the wheels (the chirp on a powershift). I agree that grannyshifting will save the tranny, but I'm not sure there's much difference to the synchros, as long as you disengage completely and reengage after shifting.

You're also right that the synchros cannot take on the inertia of the electric motors (or the gas motor for that matter), they were only meant to rev match to the inertia of the input shaft plus the clutch disc and pressure plate.

What I'm thinking of doing is rev matching using 2 encoders already in the system to control the shifts. The first encoder is in the motor, the second is in the tranny. The one in the tranny can be the stock VSS, and it can help me determine the speed of the output shaft. So.... those are the sensors, and are already naturally installed in their proper place. Let's say the car is coasting at 120kph (~1000rpm of the rear axle w/ 25" tires) in 3rd gear. To disengage 3rd gear, the motor goes to 0 torque so the gear can disengage easily to neutral. Now the tranny is in neutral. The input shaft is solidly coupled to the motors, the output shaft is coupled to the wheels, but they aren't coupled together because we're in neutral. That means the motors can rev match the input shaft to the speed of the output shaft for the next gear (I would need to know which direction the gear is changing which is why paddle shifters or a bump shifter are a must). Once the motors match the input shaft to the output shaft's rpms, again, the motors go to torque 0 and the new gear is engaged. The rev matching and the 0 torque control would be controlled by a realtime computer using a simple PID control algorithm. The control signal is the throttle signal which is also already in the system. If you look in my thread, there's a video of the wrightspeed gearbox shifting. They claim 80ms shifts, and no tranny wear on shifts. There is a question regarding my shifting scheme. My question is whether or not the synchros have enough strength to move the input shaft and the motor rotors 1 degree or so to engage the gear. The input and output shaft could be rev matched but not synchronized. I'm thinking they're strong enough, but we'll see.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

When you shift, the clutch is disengaged so the only inertia the synchros have to deal with are the inertia of the tranny shafts themselves and the clutch disc. .

Hi Speedy,
You are correct on your statement above.
The Formula Lighting racing series require licensed race drivers. They would show up once a month to race.
They were very fast (a few 100ms) at shifting. Off gas, clutch in, pull out of gear at the same time. Then next gear, full gas, pop clutch.
On major difference was the electric motor did not slow down during the shift. So when he pop the clutch with the higher inertia motor spinning faster than the new gear it would spike the transmission pretty hard.

Both in EV and ICE, a lot people make the mistake of putting in the strongest clutch the can find.

In your case. The single AC Propulsion System was pretty fast pushing around a 3500 lb formula lightning car with one gear. It would be awesome in an 818. (aka tzero) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Propulsion_tzero

[Gary Livingston]

Getting the rear motor with weight and torque mounts sorted out. Removed original motor mounts.

[Gary Livingston]

I decided to go to the STI hubs. Main reason is to get a larger/stronger axle. There is more room for a larger diameter CV. Of course there are other benefits. I don't really think I need the Brembo brakes. . .but I want less un-srpung weight also. That said, while the brake pots are a lot lighter, the rest is all heavier due to larger rotors I guess. Probably have to go to lightweight rotors to capture full benefit. I can likely get rid of the drum parking brakes . . . as both egear drives have an electric parking brake. Also picked up the aluminum lateral links.
Just assembling temporary again, to get measurements for the axles. These STI links do set the hubs out further than the wagon links.
I guess there are probably more rim choices also.

[Gary Livingston]

Had to repair some of the threads on the Brembos. Installed heli-coils in some mount holes.

[Gary Livingston]

When installing the STI hubs on the front, one needs to modify the UCA attach bracket. First drilling out the puddle welds. Next, clamp a piece of copper (brass or bronze will also work ok) to the back side and puddle weld. Ensure the holes are large enough and start the weld on the bottom plate else its possible to have no penetration. Re-drill upper holes using transfer punch to locate.

NOTE; I've seen a few people mention that this is a good fit once the inner plates are removed for the thicker section knuckle. Not the case. . .at least not with mine. If you didn't notice (I didn't take a pic. . . but will add later) there is a space of about .035". This space may not matter for the bottom hole, but significant undue stress is placed on the weldment when tightening down the upper bolt onto the knuckle if no spacer is used. I fabricated one from galvanized sheet. You can see it in one of the pics if you look close.

[Scargo]

Don't forget the anti-seize. I am doing an STi rear. You might want to see what I'm doing, especially in a couple of weeks as I get closer to finalizing it with wheels, brakes and relocating the caliper mount.

[Gary Livingston]

OK thanks, I'll check it out!:) All just dry fit for me at this point. I still have to get the frame painted.

I have all new bearings also but waiting on the ARP studs. Suppose to be in tomorrow.

I should get my custom rear drive shafts this week also. :)

[Gary Livingston]

Installed rough fit new custom rear axles. They are much heavier than stock. . . made for 500HP apparently.. :eek:

Got all new wheel bearings. (expensive from dealership! I think I screwed up there maybe) and ARP studs. Installed one front knuckle with new bearings and studs.

[Speedy G]

So clean!!! I can't wait to see what you do with the batteries.

[Gary Livingston]

So clean!!! I can't wait to see what you do with the batteries.
Thanks Speedy. Truth be told, I'm actually rather embarrassed to post pics with such an unfinished chassis, rusty components etc.. It is necessary to go this way, to do all the mods though.
I can hardly wait to get to the point of starting the actual build. . . like I'm at -1.5 right now and counting to zero, so I can start on the plus side. argh.

[Lumpyguy]

Lookin good bud keep it rolling, I get dibs on the first ride! LOL I finally got my finishing kit, suspension is almost done. I almost have a roller.

[Gary Livingston]

Lookin good bud keep it rolling, I get dibs on the first ride! LOL I finally got my finishing kit, suspension is almost done. I almost have a roller.

Hey Todd. Thanks man! Oh I'm envious of your progress! Glad u got ur kit and things are "Rollin". Got u down for first in the list. ;)

[Speedy G]

Hey Gary, any progress on your car? I've started some of the electronics, but nothing on the chassis yet.

[Gary Livingston]

Hey Gary, any progress on your car? I've started some of the electronics, but nothing on the chassis yet.

Hey Speedy. Thanks for checking on me. Sorry guys. . .been laid up here with other issues. Hardly touched the car. I'll be starting back on it soon. Been scratching my head over the battery choice for a while. Getting some new ideas here.... :)

[Gary Livingston]

I'll be using the Lear 3.3Kw Charger(s) I have two and can charge at 6.6kw if I choose. These chargers are used in the Chevy Volt, Coda and I believe the Spark as well.
Charge controller is Arduino based CAN controller to talk to the chargers. Charge voltage and current is fully programmable. This is from EVTV . . . the place u need to go for solid solutions.

[Speedy G]

Very Cool... any news on battery choice or are you just waiting for new ones to get to market? I'm definitely going with at least 1 pack of 20Ah A123 pouches. I'm also thinking about taking the heat off the batteries through the connectors. I won't have them for another 2 months though.

[ben1272]

curious what a motor/gearbox unit like that costs? Great build!

[Speedy G]

I just love the fact that the first 4WD 818 will be electric...

[Gary Livingston]

Very Cool... any news on battery choice or are you just waiting for new ones to get to market? I'm definitely going with at least 1 pack of 20Ah A123 pouches. I'm also thinking about taking the heat off the batteries through the connectors. I won't have them for another 2 months though.
Hey Speedy. Yeah I decided on using a Chevy Volt battery . It's actually quite powerful and will give up about 350kw. I will add another 24 Volts segment to it for a bit more range and headroom. I did want around 20kwh pack but 17.5 will do. I picked up a 2013 with only 1000km on the car, likely less on the battery. Essentially new.

[Speedy G]

Wow, now that's a battery! Good placement too! Does that mean you'll have a frunk and a real trunk? Those motors don't take up that much space...

Have you given thought to how you'll be shifting from park to drive or reverse? Will you use buttons or some kind of shifter?

[Gary Livingston]

Wow, now that's a battery! Good placement too! Does that mean you'll have a frunk and a real trunk? Those motors don't take up that much space...

Have you given thought to how you'll be shifting from park to drive or reverse? Will you use buttons or some kind of shifter?
I don't know what I'll have left for space but I should have some room. I'm probably going to put a rad in the back so that may eat up some space.
As for shifting, it will all be done by CAN control so could be either. I do have a rotary switch but I have t decided if I will use it. I rather like the shifter in my Volt as "low" is actually regen. I may have two regen levels/intensities. I like to use it often. I now have over 150 km on my volt and the brakes are like new.

[Gary Livingston]

This is the CAN motor controller. It can control other things also. It has two CAN Channels and some I/O as well. It's called GEVCU Generalized Electric Vehicle Controller. Again from Jack at EVTV.

[Lumpyguy]

looks good Gary, might want to put a seat in there and make sure you are ok for leg room? you have a battery right where the fire wall goes, it loks like it will fit just make sure you ok with the leg room.

[Gary Livingston]

looks good Gary, might want to put a seat in there and make sure you are ok for leg room? you have a battery right where the fire wall goes, it loks like it will fit just make sure you ok with the leg room.

Hey Todd. Thanks. Actually the battery just fits between the fire walls. There is about 1.5" at the back for it to sit in the design location. The front is a bit tight and has the cooling tubes poking thru. I'm more concerned with the width. Looks like I need to select one of the narrower seats to fit.

[Lumpyguy]

Cool, good luck on the seats, I got the Large NRG seats and they just fit snug in the stock spot they are perfect for most people who sit in them not sure smaller would limit who can sit in it.

Cheer

[Gary Livingston]

curious what a motor/gearbox unit like that costs? Great build!
Hey Ben. Thanks! The motor and controller is $6,500 and another 3K for the Borg Warner Egear drive. So about $9,500 at EVTV

[Gary Livingston]

Cool, good luck on the seats, I got the Large NRG seats and they just fit snug in the stock spot they are perfect for most people who sit in them not sure smaller would limit who can sit in it.

Cheer

Thanks Todd. I need to get the seats next before I make a bunch of decisions on placement. The seat fit, along with the steering and pedals will need to be installed to help me decide if I will keep the battery running up the middle. I have room to move that part of it if I choose. That said, I want all the welding (I'm sure there will be some incidentals) done before I send it off for powder coat so that when it comes back it truly will be mostly assembly of items that all have a home. As you could imagine, with an EV there are unconventional components that don't have a defined home so, there are many options. Weight distribution and proximity to centre as well as elevation all play a role in handling. This weekend is busy but one after I will head to Toronto to check out some seats. . . where I can sit in them and measure etc…. gotta try em out!

[Gary Livingston]

So I went to Toronto to try out some seats. Good thing too. I had my sights set on the Bride Low Max. No way. They are "made for 140 lb Asian guys" according to the shop owner. . .who just happens to be Asian, and he can't even fit in them.

I just bought one seat and installed the steering column and brake pedal to get an idea of fitment and decide on battery. I think I will not put that battery section next to the seat. It's just too tight.

[jmccabe]

Hey Gary,
Don't give up on having the center batteries. How about offsetting them slightly to the passenger side and just getting on of those tiny seats for the passenger.

Jeff McCabe

[Bob_n_Cincy]

So I went to Toronto to try out some seats. Good thing too. I had my sights set on the Bride Low Max. No way. They are "made for 140 lb Asian guys" according to the shop owner. . .who just happens to be Asian, and he can't even fit in them.

I just bought one seat and installed the steering column and brake pedal to get an idea of fitment and decide on battery. I think I will not put that battery section next to the seat. It's just too tight.

Gary,
I'm 6' 300 lbs and my son is 6'3". We will have no batteries at all in the cockpit.
Bob

[Gary Livingston]

Hey Jeff,

I dunno man. I want a decent look as well. I can still keep the larger section in the tunnel ahead of the seats. I have a few choices where to put this block.

[Gary Livingston]

Gary,
I'm 6' 300 lbs and my son is 6'3". We will have no batteries at all in the cockpit.
Bob
HEy Bob, Ya I know you are a couple of big guys. I'm not so big. It is nice to keep the weight centred and low of course. I'm not saying its impossible. . . but it's not looking good. I could cut off the inboard lever for recline as there is still one on the outside. That'll save me an inch. Still thinking of console utility as well.
There is room ahead of the front firewall, or right up front, or just behind the battery that is in the fuel tank location. I also want to add another 24volt segment. I could add it to one of the existing banks or get another set of end plates and place it separate.

[Gary Livingston]

OK so, based on some of the feedback here, I took another look. I think I can make it work with the batteries in the tunnel if I mod the seats a bit. I'll need to remvoe the inside seat lever, probably modify the outboard one and make a dam close, tight, hugging cover for the cells through the middle. The pack is sitting exactly in the middle when the seat pics were taken.

[Gary Livingston]

I should be able to create a nice storage space behind the seats also. My seats do recline and fold forward. The space above the battery could be used if the aluminum firewall was stepped instead of angled to create a shelf across the car.

[Gary Livingston]

I kept the Volt battery tray and carved it up to use it for proper securing of these cells in the 818. I cut just the edge strips (bent form hook edge on one side and bolted clamp on other) for the segment that goes behind the seats. These will get welded in place. I then cut the two sections for the cells that will go in the console area ( I think). I had to excise these out of the tray and then separate the reinforcement steel by drilling out spot welds. Starting to tack weld in place.

I have to modify the centre braces slightly for the forward section next.

[ninjanick]

Very interested in how the center tunnel shapes up. I'm still using the 5MT trans so I'm trading a similar modification to the frame, but only placing batteries in between the shifter location and the front firewall. Where do you plan on mounting the electronics?

[Gary Livingston]

Hey Nick. Well, I'm still deciding on some of it. The controllers have a fixed length connection that shouldn't be lengthened. The front motor controller will go just ahead of the front firewall. Luckily it fits in there. It will stand on end. The rear one will likely go fwd of the motor. I want to keep most of heavier items low in the car. The chargers can sit on frame work below the roll bar. Again, I'm thinking to squeeze them downwards. (as an aside, I have a couple thoughts on minimum weight that I may or may not pursue. One is to mount only one charger, 3.3kw, in the car for opportunity charging and the other on the wall at home and link them so I can do 6.6kw at home. Other is to use Batmod Vicors for DC/DC instead of Coda unit.) I will also mount a radiator with dual electric fans, and am planning to wedge it in the back of the car. Other electronics like the charger controller and GEVCU will mount on the frame under the roll bar.

Most of this is a vision at this point.

Cheers.

[Gary Livingston]

few pics

[Frank818]

Wow really nice! A lot of space after the engine fitted. But no pix of the front yet?

[Gary Livingston]

thanks Frank, Ill take a few pics of the front .... just for you.:)

[Speedy G]

Man, in your case, I think it might've been easier to start out with a no-frame kit. I hope Dave is checking this thread out. How cool would it be to have FFR do an EV kit from the factory, using your project as inspiration...

Btw with the batteries in the middle, have you figured out what seats to get? How wide is your "battery" tunnel? I'm thinking of using A123 20Ah pouches, so a battery tunnel like yours seems very appealing, but I'm wondering what seats to get.

Hey no paint on the frame or do you still have to disassemble, paint and reassemble?

Speedy G

[Frank818]

Hey Gary, way too long without an update on this 4x4 build!
What changed since Nov?

[Lumpyguy]

I live an hour from Gary and have emailed him a few times and he has not responded. not sure how he is doing

[Thumper]

any updates on the 4x4 build?

[Gary Livingston]

hey guys. I must apologize for being MIA. Lots has changed. I haven't touched the car. I moved. New place, separated etc. You know the drill. Anyways, just finishing to insulate the garage so I can work through the winter.
Sorry Todd, I also lost one of my email accounts. Anyways, I'm back on my feet now. I seem to be doing a lot of apologizing lately.... :rolleyes:
Don't look for much in the very near future but I will be getting back to it. I have a lot of catching up to do with everyone's threads.

Cheers,
Gary

[Frank818]

God damn Gary, I'm so sorry about all those bad lucks. :(

You do have a lot to catch up and on your own build as well, since we are very interested in seeing updates, we will be patiently waiting for you to be up and running.

Take it easy!

[Lumpyguy]

Man good to here you are back, I was a bit worried. have to get in touch soon.

[Speedy G]

Gary! Great to hear from you. Sounds like you need a cool hobby right about now! Oh wait, you got one! Just think about the blond that's going to sit next to your next summer. That'll keep you going!

Speedy G

[Frank818]

Hey Gary, you back on track?