Preliminary Interest Check: Carbon Fiber Side Scoops

[Mechie3]

I'm curious to see who is interested in carbon fiber side scoops for the large side intakes on the 818. The design intent is something similar to the Lotus Exige minus the visible bolt heads. At this piont I'm not sure how far out they will stick as I haven't done any mock ups yet to see what visually looks good.


Fun Story Part:
I met with the composites guy today. I've heard unsavory things about the other shop that quoted me parts before from multiple sources, so I found a new guy. He doesn't advertise, works under the umbrella of a different shop so he doesn't have to take care of paper work or taxes. He just does his thing. When I visited him he had a 94 F1 car he was rebuilding the body on, had stacks of Lamborghini GT3 front and rear bumpers, splitters, and diffusers, an audi lemans car, and some R8 parts all sent to him for work. My wife's boss' husband used to do composites and told me about him but didn't know where he was or how to get ahold of him. I finally found him via an old (yet still working) aol email address. Great guy to talk with and the work he does is phenominal. Even without advertising he gets loads of work sent to him from all over. Apparently, in racing, he is "the" guy for composites repair.

The not a fun story but details you probably are interested in part:
Parts will be wet layup vacuum bagged, but without the bubbles common in some vacuum bagged parts. Anything he makes he makes sure it looks the best it can possibly look. In carbon the parts will likely cost in the $300-$400 range. The carbon parts will be a few layers of woven glass with a top layer(s) of carbon. For all fiberglass parts the cost will be lower. He said he could have better numbers when he's actually made a part and gone through it all.

For comparison the FFR rockers are $450/set, street front diffuser is $420, and the rear diffuser is $499 so I think the pricing he gave is pretty decent.

[wleehendrick]

Definitely interested. A little more than I would want to spend, but I went for the FFR parts, and do want something like this. I'm going to try keep the A2AIC, so hoping with some scoops and ducting it'll be more effective (plus look *****in').

[wleehendrick]

Just a suggestion... it would be nice to have an option for mesh on the front of the scoop, like on the Exige, so we can open up the slot in the fender more air and not bother with the FFR perforated or trim piece.

[Mechie3]

This will take the place of the trim piece. I already ditched that and was going to do simple trim like Aloha did on his hood. On the back side of the scoop the idea is to have these flush with the body. As it gets to the front they will stick out a little bit more. The trim piece wouldn't be visible even if you had it on. The front will have a slight lip/rolled edge so you don't end up with a rough looking end. I hope they come out cheaper as well since, well, I want a pair for myself too. :D

[Quiny]

Sounds really cool, will there be a prototype to see?

[Stickshift84]

Any thoughts to scoops in the engine cover as well? where the factory vents try to feed the intercooler.

[Mechie3]

At some point. I just talked to the guy today. To save total costs and time he instructed me what materials to use and how to make the foam plug on the body. He even offered (for free) to come to my house one night and give me a little hands on assistance for an hour. After I get one how I want it he can copy it for the other side so they match. If he does the plug work all by himself it's $75/hr! Just ends up being more cost to recoup.

[Mechie3]

Any thoughts to scoops in the engine cover as well? where the factory vents try to feed the intercooler.

Not at this time. It'd have to be a very tall scoop to work on the 818S and likely more expensive than an AWIC setup and with less overall appeal to the general market.

[metros]

I'm in. I think a more aggressive side scoop will drastically improve the looks of the 818 (more so) and make it much more aggressive looking.

If his work is as good as you've stated then the pricing isn't terrible.

[mikeb75]

High interest. Can't wait to see mock-ups/ prototypes on your car

[JeromeS13]

I'm interested, pending how it looks.

[rori]

I'm interested.

[Santiago]

Interested, pending looks and integration with the existing body. I'm planning for flared rear fenders, so regardless of my interest a scoop that's made for the stock body may not work for me. Sounds like a great project though!

Best,
-j

[Ethan818]

I'm also interested

[CanadianYank]

Yes I am...

Frank

[RM1SepEx]

More than interested, I need these for my side mounted IC and brought up the idea... :o

[metalmaker12]

A cad design or mock up would peak my interest.

[apexanimal]

as long as these are still available in the future for those of us who aren't building yet ;)

[riptide motorsport]

Sounds great.

[Aero STI]

I'm interested.

One of the mechanical engineers at my company races go karts. He's very successful at a national level in the Yamaha laydown classes. I believe he won the series on points this year and last. He designs all of his body work in Solidworks and then optimizes with CFD. He prints things on a plotter at 1:1 scale and uses this as a template to create his fiberglass bodies, starting with foam and shaping to match the model. Just an idea if you have the means and want to be less organic.

[bbjones121]

i missed this earlier today. Awesome! Very interested

[Frank818]

I am interested if they are big and flow a sh*t load volume of air.

[FFR-ADV]

That is a great idea! I am interested. I wonder how it will look with the new removable hardtop? Maybe a roof scoop as well??

Thanks!

[suttonb3]

Definitely interested!

[bbjones121]

Dont want them too big. I like them more as accent pieces, functionality is important, but second to looks.

[Mechie3]

I'm thinking 10" wide openings. ;)

Glad there's lots of interest. It'll help amortize the tooling costs. I could design them in CAD and do CFD except I'd really need CAD of the car itself. I have a CAD model of the car, but it's an estimation. As for CFD, mechanical engineers split into two main groups halfway through school. There's the solids/vibrations/controls guys and then there's the fluids/thermo guys. I have access to CFD software, but it's garbage in garbage out. I could probably get some data, but without a full car model it's pointless. The computing power required to do that would be quite intensive too.

[oldguy668]

A cad design or mock up would peak my interest.

Ditto that

[Santiago]

I'm not sure that a CFD analysis on this is all that necessary. The only folks who would really need it are those who already really need the whole car analyzed anyway...you know...because their putting together a complete aero package from scratch...*ahem*...

However, a basic CAD sketch would help folks just visualize the scoops and judge from that if it suits their needs.

Best,
-j

[DMC7492]

With the carbon scoop it will appear as it was added, on a track car no big deal. With a basic fiberglass unit that only protruded out wards an inch or so and blended in and painted would. Appear as if the body came from the factory with larger scoops, I would be in on this as long as they did not need to be retro fitted. Other wise we could simply form our own.

[Mechie3]

The idea is a simple bolt on piece, but with the bolts hidden inside instead of outside like the exige. I wouldn't say the CF would necessarily look tacked on. The exige and Audi R8 do well. The carbon would mostly be for those who already have the other carbon aero bits. Fiberglass would be for those that want to paint.

[CanadianYank]

33795

For a Lambo... is this something like your thinking? I think it would really nice if it seemed to protrude from the same body opening. Bolt on would be preferred...

Frank

[indiana818]

i would love to see what they look like not impreseed with current screens
kerry

[Mechie3]

Frank, similar but less angular as to match the curves of the 818.

[nkw8181]

I look forward to seeing how they look!

[Kurk818]

Definitely interested. Would love to see a design

[pwnoz]

I would definitely be interested as well.

[matteo92065]

interested.

[drdracing]

Interested. Looking forward to seeing them.

[Sgt.Gator]

++1

[Doowop]

interested too!
thanks

[C.Plavan]

Hurry up already. :)

[Mechie3]

:p

I went to the foam shop yesterday to get foam to shape. They're supposed to call me back today or tomorrow.

[Mechie3]

Just picked up some 3lb density foam. :D

[Canadian818]

Very interested, if they're big enough and flow enough for an intercooler(s).

[flynntuna]

There are some cool ideas to be "lifted" from our GTM brothers. ;)

[Mechie3]

Thanks for the pic.

I might get a chance to start working on these this weekend. My WRX is sold, I got a new DD to replace it that requires zero work, last autocross was Sunday, and I mowed the lawn tonight.

[longislandwrx]

you know i'm interested.

[Frank818]

There are some cool ideas to be "lifted" from our GTM brothers. ;)

That's were I took the louvers idea from. :)
But I don't want louvers for looks, I want them to be practical and redirect the airflow properly.

[Mechie3]

How to make a mess in your garage:

1: Buy large block of foam
2: Turn on router
3: Combine

Most of the work was actually done by hand using cheese graters. :D

Made two different versions, a smaller more rounded version and a larger more aggressively styled version. I'm leaning towards the more aggressive one myself. The round one just looks (IMO) a bit benign. The more aggressive one seems to say "heck yeah I'm mid engined, what'd you think I was?". Something in between might be best though.

http://i.imgur.com/3nwraal.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ypwiH31.jpg

Mild: ~1.5" protrusion, all rounded surfaces.
http://i.imgur.com/fdO0We2.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/e1vlhYI.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/1gyNBev.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/T0yXJrV.jpg

[Mechie3]

http://i.imgur.com/jXmP1Ud.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/ljLjA1Y.jpg

Wild left, Mild right:
http://i.imgur.com/BMcaOQG.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/3Nbl7pn.jpg

Wild, ~2.5" protrusion, angled top (matches line of top of engine cover)
http://i.imgur.com/jvIA2WY.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5wNVhEi.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Uw6bJks.jpg

[Mechie3]

Does not stick outside of the fender flare (actually about flush since the rear end bows out before the flare.
http://i.imgur.com/acoY7cz.jpg

the bottom of the wild version needs a bit more shaping work. both of them need to be coated in bondo and finessed a bit more as well.

[mikeb75]

Wild looks very good.

Give any consideration to going totally nuts and combining scoops with a wider rear wheel flair?

[metros]

I like the wild but would even consider more aggressive to be better.

[Frank818]

Wild much better! Could be more aggressive, I think. Of course it won't be that thick, this is just foam for testing right?

[Mechie3]

It's just foam that will be used to make the mold so the entire thing will be open on the front.. To save cost I'm making the patterns, then the CF guy will finish off the plug, make the mold, and make the parts. He offered to come over Friday night to give me some pointers but I hadn't had a chance to do anything yet. He'll probably come over later this week to give some advice. I need to fill in the seams with bondo or something, but don't know the best way to do that yet (hence, why he's coming over).

I think the bottom of the wild needs to taper in more, less flat across the top less round at the bottom. The center needs to be built up slightly as well so it's not perfectly flat across it.

[RM1SepEx]

I was thinking about 2 inches to be right so if you smooth up the wild it should give my side mount IC the air it needs. It needs to be a bit narrower than the rear fenders, I don't want them to be susceptable to cones, I expect that the CF rocker extensions may protect them a bit. How far wil the bottom of the scoop extend? I'd like to see it go to the end of the crease in the body....

Consider me in for a set Craig...

[Mechie3]

They are narrower than the rear fenders. I can put a staight edge on it tonight and see how much narrower.

[RM1SepEx]

Looks to be fine Craig, I do need the bottom to extend as far forward as possible to cover the cut for the side mount IC... :)

[Mechie3]

I tried to follow the general curve of the door. The upper line stretched out all the way to where the side cutout blends into the main body, the bottom line ended up wherever it was that the profile matched. I can measure how far back it is tonight.

[Santiago]

Really nice! Like how the upper fender body line is followed along the sloping transition - that's the sort of design eye FFR should've employed in those front wheel well cut-outs they're now offering. My vote is in the aggressive direction for sure!

I may be in for a set (really tempting)...gotta figure out what direction my flares will be...

Best,
-j

[C.Plavan]

Go big, or go home :)

[wleehendrick]

a smaller more rounded version and a larger more aggressively styled version. I'm leaning towards the more aggressive one myself.

Yes... moar aggressive! :mad:


My WRX is sold, I got a new DD to replace it that requires zero work.

New A3?

[Mechie3]

New (to me) A3 quattro. It's a 2010. Got a good deal on it, cost less that most similarly aged turbo Subarus, cost less to insure than my 2002 WRX, and is so far averaging 7mpg better than my WRX with similar driving styles. Found out this weekend a previous owner (not sure which, I'm the fourth) put an APR tune on it. :D

Agressive styling it is!

[wleehendrick]

New (to me) A3 quattro. It's a 2010. Got a good deal on it, cost less that most similarly aged turbo Subarus, cost less to insure than my 2002 WRX, and is so far averaging 7mpg better than my WRX with similar driving styles. Found out this weekend a previous owner (not sure which, I'm the fourth) put an APR tune on it. :D

So it's the the 5-door, then... nice! I love Audi wagons; when my wife got her 135i last year, we kept her A4; it's a 2005 Avant Quattro 6MT. It will become my DD when I sell my Z soon. It's been pretty reliable for a German car, although not cheap to repair/maintain. I only do little things on it... we take it to an independent shop run by a little German guy who just works on Audi and Porsche; good, honest guy and much cheaper than the steelership.

[Mechie3]

The bottom section of the scoop is 3" from the point where the body and FFR side vent blend together.

[longislandwrx]

Go big, or go home :)

this.

[Frank818]

Craig, what method you have in mind to install the CF cover on the body panel?

[Mechie3]

Magic. It works in CAD all the time.

I was thinking of having a lip on the back side that would bolt on where the FFR trim goes along with a lip on the top and bottom that will attach to the body. All fasteners would be hidden.

[Frank818]

All fasteners would be hidden.

That's what I call magic. You answered the Q.

[Boog]

I was thinking of having a lip on the back side that would bolt on where the FFR trim goes along with a lip on the top and bottom that will attach to the body. All fasteners would be hidden.

Does that mean you would need a 2-piece mold with an additional buck in between so it will release? Just curious since I don't have a lot of experience with composites. I guess its a trade off of time and cost vs quality and looks.

[Mechie3]

I'm shooting for 1 piece. Going to see what the composites guy says. The front is all open so the part doesn't need to pull straight out but could pull straight forward from a mold as from that angle its all still positively drafted.

[nkw8181]

Wait...If we are going off of cad rules it should just sit there without anything since I've seen idiots model that way all the time :-)

[Drew P]

Always interested to see what people can do to enhance the look and performance.

[CanadianYank]

I really like the wide style, cant wait to see the finished product.

Frank

[Mechie3]

It's been slow going. My wife had a presentation to give at the hospital today so I've been on baby duty most of the weekend and this week.

[DMC7492]

Hi Mechie, How is the progress on the side scoops?

[Mechie3]

Slow. Between the cold, holidays in Seattle, and now back in Seattle for a funeral it hasn't gone anywhere.

[RM1SepEx]

Our condolences on the funeral... :(

Keep smiling attitude helps!

[C.Plavan]

The new Cayman GT4 has scoops....... :) 38398

[Scargo]

Finishing EPS is tricky. You need to seal it and then whatever you use to fill with needs to be very lightweight and easy to work, like the foam, or you will have trouble during finishing, with the soft foam going away and the harder coat/filler remaining. Before you paint, it must be fully sealed or a solvent based paint will make it shrivel and cause a depression.
Hopefully your guy will know all the tricks. It's getting the baby-bottom smooth finish on the pattern that is difficult. I made lots of mistakes doing one-off patterns for my STi front facia before I finally got it finished. I started with Elmer's glue as a sealant; didn't use enough and during finishing I kept breaking through the sealer layer. Just some food for thought from a retired industrial model maker. Amazon does sell a lot of stuff for sealing/filling EPS. Lots have their secret mixes that work, too. I just can't recommend anything at the moment. Before long I will be doing bodywork on my car...

[Mechie3]

Hopefully your guy will know all the tricks.

Well...

He repairs all of the Gallardo GT3 cars, the Audi R8 LMS cars, has restored a couple of F1 cars, has repaired other audi LMS prototypes, used to be the Riley Scott composites guy, and also used to be the traveling composites guy for Indycar doing track side repairs for double header weekends. :)

It's been too cold to ask him to come over and work in my unheated garage. As soon as it warms up I intend to have him over to help with the final molding onto the car then it's all in his hands.

[Frank818]

The new Cayman GT4 has scoops....... :) 38398

Indeed, the 3.8L 385hp GT4 is now one of my favourite. Not cuz of the scoops, though. :) Craig will make the 818 my favourite once it gets scoops.

[tmoretta]

I am interested in top (Intercooler) scoops. I fear the existing openings are much too small. Have been scouring all kinds of sources for correctly sized scoops. No luck yet. Anybody have any ideas, or willing to build/market them?