Clekos

[Hindsight]

I believe I understand the general purpose behind using them: To keep the panels temporarily in place in case you end up needing to remove them to more easily install a part further along in the build step.

What I don't understand is why people use so many.... why use one for every single rivet hole in the panel? Wouldn't just like 4 or 5 of them hold it in place?

[Mechie3]

The more you have the less likely the panel is to buckle or shift. I usually go every other hole. I do sometimes get a little panel shift and need to give the rivet a good smack to get it in.

[Hindsight]

Ahh, makes sense, thanks!

[wleehendrick]

It's to cause clecko-envy!

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33633&d=1410977691

Those aircraft builders do seem to go overboard... I bought two bags of 25 from Amazon, so 50 in all. They're cheap and easy put in and out, and as Craig mentioned, the panels can buckle/shift with too few.


33633

[Mechie3]

The more clecos you use the more you give the appearance you're an expert/master and/or know what you're doing!

I only used 25, so that might explain why my car isn't done yet. :p hahaha

[Jeff Kleiner]

...Wouldn't just like 4 or 5 of them hold it in place?

Yes, and that's how I do it but like Mechie3 said some guys like to put on a show ;)

Jeff

[Hindsight]

Looks like I will be buying a thousand and drilling some extra holes....

[Rasmus]

I have about 30 clecos in my tools collection. I've never needed more or even used all 30 at the same time. Like others have stated, I use enough to prevent the panel from wanting to bend, buckle, or pucker when it comes time to rivet.

Once I have my top panel predrilled, I lay it on top of the frame and drill the first matching hole into the frame. This is the starting hole and I work in increasing distance from that first hole. I 'smooth' the panel as I go. Generally putting a cleco in every other hole based on it's order from the starting hole. The furthest holes don't ever get clecos. Rivets go in very close to the same order as the drilling was done, clecos removed as I go.

http://i.imgur.com/2iZjzca.jpg
My starter hole was in the 'tab' of this under floor panel. If you look close you can see all the holes I skipped putting in a cleco.

[Evan78]

Looks like sheet metal acupuncture.

[68GT500MAN]

Rasmus, that panel has 28!

[edwardb]

Here we go... This subject comes up every few months and somehow it's a contest to see how few you can use. Right up there with how much HP is enough. There's no right or wrong answer. Get enough to where you're satisfied the panels aren't moving as you're drilling more holes, adding additional panels, etc. .040 aluminum will move around, buckle at bit, etc. So I probably use more than less. They're not expensive and not exactly hard to take in and out. Hopefully my man card isn't in jeopardy.

http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/edwardb123/Factory%20Five%20Mark%204%20Roadster%20Build/Update%2004042013/IMG_2039_zpsb2610692.jpg (http://s867.photobucket.com/user/edwardb123/media/Factory%20Five%20Mark%204%20Roadster%20Build/Update%2004042013/IMG_2039_zpsb2610692.jpg.html)

[TahoeTim]

The cobra trunk above demonstrates the real power of clecos. I have read about guys messing up the foot box aluminum installation order. What about the center console. The power of clecos is being able to clamp the whole section of pieces before you pull the first rivet. trim, assemble, etc and then rivet a whole set of panels at one time.

As an aircraft builder, I have a few hundred in each of three sizes. When you are doing a curved wing skin or a spar, you have to put them in every hole and remove one at a time as you rivet the skin. On a flat panel, you only need enough to hold it in place. No need to go crazy.

33656 33657

On an aircraft, you drill the panel and deburr. Then you slowly drill the holes through the skin to the back piece. Then you remove it and deburr the back. Spray with anti corrosion paint. Then you assemble with rivets. My palms got sore installing clecos so many times. My airplane kit came with 5000 rivets.

Aircraft spruce is your friend. My favorite tool:
33658

spreads out to set spacing for rivet holes

I use it by determining the first and last holes in a line and then spread it to line up a whole row perfectly spaced.

[carbon fiber]

Clekos don't fit as tight as an actual rivet. I've used clekos and rivits taped in place on aircraft to keep things lined up. When you're bucking real rivits you want everything to fit perfectly, re-drilling and re-riveting isn't what you want.

[JAubin]

I ended up buying more clecos than I needed mostly because it was a good sanity check to make sure all the holes are drilled and everything aligns properly before I put any rivets in.

[Oppenheimer]

I believe I understand the general purpose behind using them: To keep the panels temporarily in place in case you end up needing to remove them to more easily install a part further along in the build step.

What I don't understand is why people use so many.... why use one for every single rivet hole in the panel? Wouldn't just like 4 or 5 of them hold it in place?

As you may have inferred from the subsequent posts, another (perhaps more important) reason is to hold the panel in place as you are drilling each new hole. You predrill all the holes in the panel, then line it up where it needs to go, then drill through 1st panel into frame, then put in a cleco to hold the panel aligned with that hole. Drill the next hole, cleco, etc. Like others said, you can drill 2, cleco 1, etc, if its a flat panel (like virtually all FFR panels are).

If you don't do this, the panel will shift, so when you go to put in the real rivets, the holes aren't going to line up and you'll have a real mess.

So even if you are ready to mount a panel as soon as you are done drilling it, you're going to want to use clecos, then remove panel, clean up any shavings, add your silicone sealant, then start riveting (so you don't want to just drill, rivet, drill, rivet, etc).

[D Clary]

Be sure not to get silicone in your clecos, they will no longer cleek

[wleehendrick]

Be sure not to get silicone in your clecos, they will no longer cleek

33670

[Hindsight]

As you may have inferred from the subsequent posts, another (perhaps more important) reason is to hold the panel in place as you are drilling each new hole. You predrill all the holes in the panel, then line it up where it needs to go, then drill through 1st panel into frame, then put in a cleco to hold the panel aligned with that hole. Drill the next hole, cleco, etc. Like others said, you can drill 2, cleco 1, etc, if its a flat panel (like virtually all FFR panels are).

If you don't do this, the panel will shift, so when you go to put in the real rivets, the holes aren't going to line up and you'll have a real mess.

So even if you are ready to mount a panel as soon as you are done drilling it, you're going to want to use clecos, then remove panel, clean up any shavings, add your silicone sealant, then start riveting (so you don't want to just drill, rivet, drill, rivet, etc).

Very helpful thank you!

[Mechie3]

Here we go... This subject comes up every few months and somehow it's a contest to see how few you can use. Right up there with how much HP is enough. There's no right or wrong answer. Get enough to where you're satisfied the panels aren't moving as you're drilling more holes, adding additional panels, etc. .040 aluminum will move around, buckle at bit, etc. So I probably use more than less. They're not expensive and not exactly hard to take in and out. Hopefully my man card isn't in jeopardy.


I actually wish I had more than 25. I think your photo shows good usage.

I started out drilling sheet metal, then drilling the frame. That ended up taking longer than just alining, drilling 1 hole in sheet and frame, clamping it on the opposite end and working my way across.

[RM1SepEx]

I use 50 of each size, 1/8 and 3/16 I've had zero problems with them and silicone mucking them up... a couple times I used some acetone to soften it up, exercise it a few times and they work fine. Having 50 allows me to juggle projects etc... I usually do every 2nd or 3rd hole. I always drill em all, remove and clean the panel, apply silicone and replace a few clecos. So every time a few get the silicone treatment!

EdwardB hasit right on all counts, can't hurt to use too many and it's good exercise for your forearms too

[wleehendrick]

and it's good exercise for your forearms too

Cleckos are child's play after all the rivets and nutserts I've put in with hand tools, ugh!

[RM1SepEx]

The nutserts are a problem for me... I don't tell my PT I put some in :rolleyes:

[TahoeTim]

They make a pneumatic cleco tool if you get tired.

BTW - I disagree that clecos aren't as tight as a rivet. I pulled down a 4ft by 12ft wide wing skin with a couple hundred of them. I never used them on bucked rivets and agree there that you stick them all in and buck away...getting off topic here...

possibly wrong size clecos???

[TahoeTim]

rivnuts are a breeze if you buy a high end tool. Aircraft Spruce is your friend.

[Hindsight]

Is there a specific rivnut tool Aircraft Spruce sells that you recommend?

[Doowop]

which makes me think, anybody is selling their clekos?

[carbon fiber]

They make a pneumatic cleco tool if you get tired.

BTW - I disagree that clecos aren't as tight as a rivet.

Bucking real rivets and installing cherry max or pop rivets is apples to oranges. Clecos aren't as tight as rivits. The clecos only grip from two points, 180 degrees away from each other. And they only have so much pressure. Most kitplane builders have never bucked real rivets, especially on structural parts thicker than 0.80. When you have a hole that doesn't perfectly line up you then re-drill. Then when you go to buck the rivet, it wants/has to fill the offset that was created when it was re-drilled. That makes the rivet want to lean to one side while your bucking it, which is a major problem. This isn't an issue with simple panels and pop rivits, but it matters big-time with real rivets. I would bet I've used more clecos than anyone here, last time I checked I had over 1500 of them.

[TahoeTim]

Sorry, carbon, you don't know what you are talking about and seem to have an axe to grind against kit builders who "have never bucked real rivets". I guess we will just leave it that experiences vary. I'm on my third FFR car and I built two kit planes. I have a mountain of clecos in four sizes. The cleco used properly will also provide for a perfectly drilled hole too.

I am trying to encourage FFR builders to use clecos to mock up many panels at once and precisely drill the frame. The cleco is perfect for this work. There are toolbox kits available for $60 on the web that offer a variety of cleco devices and a tool. Get a set with the most clecos in the size you need rather than just a few in sizes you will never use.

Clecos are addictive, once you use them, you will want more!

[carbon fiber]

I didn't want to get into an argument Tim. Clecos are fine for the panels on a kit car, I thought I made that clear. If you look back at my original post, I was commenting on how real rivets are different than pop rivets when it comes to keeping perfect hole alignment. You get creep on curved parts when using clecos alone. When working with thicker materials it's even more of a problem. I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. I've built entire WWII fighter fuselages from SRATCH. You've built (assembled not built) two kit planes. That's what you do with pieces someone already "built". I really wasn't trying to be ugly, but don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. Here's a pic of parts I've built, not assembled.

[flynntuna]

Hey guys thanks for the spirited discussion, with out it I wouldn't even be aware of bucking rivets or using a bucking bar. I did some searching on line to find out what you were talking about and found this discussion on good riveting . I'm glad there are experienced guys like you out there sharing your knowledge for he rest of us out here.


http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrSbhBJ5iZUdQcAHlfBGOd_;_ylu=X3oDMTE0czlqZWx tBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2dxMQR2dGlkA1RBVVMwNzRfM Q--/RV=2/RE=1411864266/RO=10/RU=http%3a%2f%2fwww.vansairforce.net%2farticles%2f NotesOnRiveting%2fNotesOnRiveting.htm/RK=0/RS=cl7QvBRQoSYLKanV_85eWqyJdQQ-

[carbon fiber]

At least someone got something out of it. This thread was about clecos. I originally commented because aircraft was mentioned. I wasn't trying to offend anyone by talking about the comparison between pop rivets and rivets that have to be bucked. There's also nothing wrong with a spirited debate either, often times it brings out the most facts. I just don't like when someone who has a fraction of the knowledge I do on a particular subject, tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, that rubbed me the wrong way. Many of the threads that I watch on this forum I learn from. When it's something I don't know about I listen and ask questions. TahoeTim, I'm sure there are iron workers that would tell me I've never bucked a "real rivet".

[TahoeTim]

Sorry carbon, I was specifically referring to your statement that clecos only grip in two spots 180 apart when I stated that you don't know what you are talking about. I should have been more clear. You crack me up by continuing to insult my skills when you claim that I "assemble planes, not build". I will resist posting a photo of P51 parts to try to one up you.

Ignore the bickering guys and take away the simple fact that IN THIS TYPE OF SHEET METAL WORK, clecos are helping hands that we can all benefit from since most of us work on our kits alone in the cold garage on weekends and evenings.

[carbon fiber]

If you want to post pics of P-51 parts YOU'VE BUILT, go for it. (Those are NAA XP-82 Twin Mustang parts in the pic) It would only help your credibility in this conversation. If you remember when you first posted as a new member I complimented your RV build and we talked planes a little bit. I only got testy here when you told me I didn't know what I was talking about. You disagreed about the clecos fine, here's a pic that demonstrates what I meant. They only grip in two places 180 degrees away from each other. Not on the sides. If you put rivets and clekos in, the rivets don't allow the panel to move at all. A rivet is the exact O.D. of the I.D. of the drilled hole, they can't shift. I've used a combo of rivets taped in place and clecos when drilling holes to keep complex curve panels from creeping. It works. That's what I said and I stand by it. There is also a big difference between bucking small rivets and large rivets when it come to having holes misaligned. They are longer and harder to buck, and a mis-drilled hole can cause big problems. It's a big jump from a 3X gun to a 6X gun.

[Rasmus]

My clecos are bigger than your clecos.

[carbon fiber]

My clecos are bigger than your clecos. LOL, but I've got a 6X gun!

[Doowop]

I'll make sure I buy bigger clecos than any of you guys when i buy some!! :)

[Jeff Kleiner]

Who doesn't enjoy a good ol' interwebs pi$$ing contest? :rolleyes:

Jeff

[Mechie3]

I didn't know what bucking rivets was until today.

Plus...building WWII airplanes? Surely there's a website somewhere where you detailed your build. Please? (not being sarcastic, that would be cool to read through!!)

[carbon fiber]

Search for XP-82 Twin Mustang Restoration Project. It's the prototype (483887) for the NAA F-82. It's not mine, I worked on this project from 2008-2010. It started with just the left hand fuselage and reverse engineered a right from it. We did the fuselage and control surfaces while I was there. (Disclaimer) I left before the skins were riveted on the fuselage, they could have been done better.(IMO) There are 4 that still exist. One of them, The Betty Joe, is in the Smithsonian. It was an incredible plane designed as a long range bomber escort at the end of WWII. They ended WWII after we dropped the bomb, and it ended up being used as a fighter in Korea. They are building it to be a flyer, so I'm looking forward to seeing it when they get it finished.

[Rasmus]

Who doesn't enjoy a good ol' interwebs pi$$ing contest?
http://i1214.photobucket.com/albums/cc498/hellboy250/7coCy.gif

[flynntuna]

Eastwood has come out with a solid rivet kit. Custom interior panels anyone?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sTmuFxEN1Mk

[longislandwrx]

that is sick. just need to come up with the physics defying blind version!

[STiPWRD]

that is sick. just need to come up with the physics defying blind version!

Yup