Fastest tire for the 818 - Track and AutoX

[Brando]

Hoosier R25B, R35A or A6's FTW?

Without factoring the lifespan of the tire:
What is the fastest autoX tire out there for the 818?
What is the fastest track tire out there for the 818?

[D Clary]

I have just gotten a set of hoosier A-7. I had bee running Hankook c-17. Hoosiers are way faster especialy cold. Hot they start to even out. If you need to be fast immediately I would go with these. For track day when you have time to warm the tires the Hankooks are way cheaper and wear better even with the auto X compound. I am thinking my 818 is going to have to have 2 sets of wheels and tires.

[Brando]

How would you compare your c-17's to the r6's

[D Clary]

I haven't used the r-6 but a couple of other guys have tried to auto X with them and they don't heat up fast enough. Our auto X courses are usually 50-60 seconds long so there is not a lot of time to heat up. Our times for scoring are in the AM so we cant rely on track temp for any help. For a track day the R-6 is going to be better as the c-17 will heat up and get a little greasy, not as bad as the A6 or7. I am planning on a couple of hill climbs and will use A-7 for that as they are only a couple of miles with no time to build heat off the clock.

[RM1SepEx]

The R25 should heat the fastest and should be the softest

[D Clary]

R-25 are bias ply, A-7 are radial, the compound is very similar the r-25 has a very stiff sidewall and you can run lower pressure. It would probably require a different chassis set up than the radial. I am not sure of the gain given equal setup experience

[Grintch]

R-25 are bias ply, A-7 are radial, the compound is very similar the r-25 has a very stiff sidewall and you can run lower pressure. It would probably require a different chassis set up than the radial. I am not sure of the gain given equal setup experience

Not always. R25 is a compound not a construction. While most of Hoosier's radial slicks use a different compound nomecalture than the bias bly slicks, there is some cross over (typically for Formula or Sport Racer sizes).

Almost all the D Mod & E Mod guys run pure slicks rather than R counpounds. But R compounds can be more forgiving. And if you want a dual purpose car that you can just switch tires and race without big setup changes, they are the better option. And you have a ton more size choices. Finding a slick the right size, that will fit your wheels/clear your brakes, intended for a car of similar weight can be dificult sometimes.

[philly15]

anyone have any testing updates for track tires? I am trying to get my track setup down for some October events, and don't want to put the wear on my street tires.

[philstireservice]

The R25 should heat the fastest and should be the softest


This would be correct!

[Santiago]

I know this thread is something of an abstract question of an single quality of tire comparisons. So I'll just throw this out there one time and leave it alone.

If you are not fairly well experienced with tracking your car, I would highly recommend a slower tire, specifically a non-R comp (definitely a non-slick) tire. Here's where I'm coming from. I'm a NASA instructor and we see this from time to time: guy shows up with way more car than he has skills and it leads to the following troubles:
1. The tires mask a host of bad driving techniques, they're so damn grippy the guy thinks he's doing great because the car sticks. Result: bad habits are cemented.
2. The tires artificially reward said bad driving, they're so much better than anything most of his peers are running that he thinks his skills are great and thus doesn't focus on them. really fast times but he's not able to extract it and thus only ever gets fast times.]
3. With the above two, these drivers never learn how to read their tires, they don't learn good recovery skills, and they don't learn their car's handling characteristics all that well.
4. The worst of it: the "less forgiving" comment so frequently mentioned usually has to do with the tire's behavior near (and just past) its grip limit. Without sufficient experience to develop core skills, the driver doesn't have the tools to manage the very narrow window for slide recovery. The groundwork for a violent off has been laid.

A hot-street tire would serve the newer driver much better. The CAR will be slower for sure, but YOU will be getting faster. That's a payoff that you carry with you to any seat you take, and when you do get into the R-comps and slicks, the risk is lower and the payoff is much higher.

Best,
-j

[Mechie3]

I'll agree with that. I started out auto-xing on street tires. Moved to R-comps my second year and never looked back. I'm glad I took at least my first year to learn on streets. I've driven a few cars on street tires and while I was still good, I was definitely over driving. Part of it is I'm used to an F500 with R25B's and hopping into a borrowed car for 2 runs doesn't say much. I see that same issue with AWD at autocross. The Subaru guys show up and dominate their first year. By the third year, the RWD guys are far surpassing the Subaru guys because the AWD hid a lot of poor throttle control.

[D Clary]

I would also agree, I started on old hard tires and had to work to make the car and myself better. When I got very good tires it was totally cool.

[JeromeS13]

That's why I started out with street tires on the 818. I need to completely re-learn how to drive, since I came from a heavy AWD car. It's definitely been a learning experience coming to the MR platform.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That's why I started out with street tires on the 818. I need to completely re-learn how to drive, since I came from a heavy AWD car. It's definitely been a learning experience coming to the MR platform.

Same for Mike and I. In the NA impreza we were always full throttle or full brake. Impossible to get loose. Pushed into every corner.
In the 818 turbo. It has never pushed. To much gas will get you loose in a heatbeat.
Bob

[sbcamb]

I know this thread is something of an abstract question of an single quality of tire comparisons. So I'll just throw this out there one time and leave it alone.

If you are not fairly well experienced with tracking your car, I would highly recommend a slower tire, specifically a non-R comp (definitely a non-slick) tire. Here's where I'm coming from. I'm a NASA instructor and we see this from time to time: guy shows up with way more car than he has skills and it leads to the following troubles:
1. The tires mask a host of bad driving techniques, they're so damn grippy the guy thinks he's doing great because the car sticks. Result: bad habits are cemented.
2. The tires artificially reward said bad driving, they're so much better than anything most of his peers are running that he thinks his skills are great and thus doesn't focus on them. really fast times but he's not able to extract it and thus only ever gets fast times.]
3. With the above two, these drivers never learn how to read their tires, they don't learn good recovery skills, and they don't learn their car's handling characteristics all that well.
4. The worst of it: the "less forgiving" comment so frequently mentioned usually has to do with the tire's behavior near (and just past) its grip limit. Without sufficient experience to develop core skills, the driver doesn't have the tools to manage the very narrow window for slide recovery. The groundwork for a violent off has been laid.

A hot-street tire would serve the newer driver much better. The CAR will be slower for sure, but YOU will be getting faster. That's a payoff that you carry with you to any seat you take, and when you do get into the R-comps and slicks, the risk is lower and the payoff is much higher.

Best,
-j

Plan to use my 818S street only. Am a motorcycle nut and see this (my first car build) as a side-by-side bike. Was going to go with sticky tires 'till I saw your post. Am used to 'excess' power, but have little experience in light, mid-engine 4-wheelers. Your view - Comp or street tires? Recommendations?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Plan to use my 818S street only. Am a motorcycle nut and see this (my first car build) as a side-by-side bike. Was going to go with sticky tires 'till I saw your post. Am used to 'excess' power, but have little experience in light, mid-engine 4-wheelers. Your view - Comp or street tires? Recommendations?

Hi Sbcamb,
Welcome to the forum.
If you are one of those crazy knee dragging motorcycle guys and enjoy drifting your bike around corners. I suggest you go with the racing rubber. If you are serious about "street only" then you only need street tires.
This car is fun to drive. I suspect most will at least do some autocross or track days.
I have a bunch of motorcycle nuts as friends. They all drive everything to the limit.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

Like Craig, I have a bunch of experience with the R25s from my FMod days. IMO the slicks have more overall grip and heat rapidly. They maximize rubber per width with no tread/groove. However, their bias ply construction tends to change how you have to drive with them, while radials feel more progressive as you turn I think the bias plies take a millisecond to flex and "set" then the grip is AMAZING... In our club other members have found the same to be true, overall G loads increase with the race rubber, it does require a different driving style and is a bit more difficult to master as the grip is less progressive and more abrupt. I like to think of it as having a higher ultimate grip potential but having a sharper "edge" at the limit. This means that you can go from hero to zero very quickly, esp with a low polar moment of inertia mid engine car. The rotate more rapidly. Most drivers will be faster and more consistent with the DOT tires, as they will result in a more forgiving setup.

As Craig noted a good AWD car is easy to drive fast, however its setup has low overall capabilities and the electronics and power don't help the learning curve. Many of the newer driver "aids" mask the actual "edge" from the driver and they don't get the opportunity to really learn and progress. The best way to learn is in a proper setup car w/o excess power and driver "aids" (Miata anyone)

Now I spend all my autocross and track time using a shifter kart with bias slicks, the grip from bias ply MG greens is truly amazing and it doesn't take long for you to realize that the side loading G forces can cause severe rib damage... ;) I'm not actually capable of mastering those limits so I setup the kart for a more forgiving setup, not the best for ultimate grip and speeds. I do crave the shakes that result from an awesome, on the edge autocross run.

[Santiago]

Sbcamb,

So a street car is going to be in one of two situations:
a. "Run what you brung" - owner shows up to track/autox and runs his car w/the same wheel/tire combo he drove in with
b. "Swap and run" - owner shows up ready/willing to swap to a dedicated tire/wheel set up

If by "street only" you mean (a), then we can ignore any talk of R-comp or slicks. They're not legal on public roads. And it's sort of pointless to put that kind of wear on this kind of rubber anyway.

However, if you are open (or planned all along) on the (b) option, then the floodgates are wide open. I like instructing motorcycle guys, because they've had lots of prior time to digest core concepts (weight transfer, road camber, etc.) that car-only guys find hard to get at first. So you'd probably do well with an R-comp right off the bat.

A hot street tire wouldn't be misery by any stretch. Something like the Toyo R1R, Potenza RE-11, or the new g-Force Rival are going to offer great grip. I've only personally used the R1R tires and found them fantastic in the rain. They do heat-cycle out like an R-comp and they're not supposed to be stored in freezing temps, so they're more like a street legal R-comp than a real street tire. If I was looking for a new hot street tire, I'd look at the g-Force Rivals, and pay special attention to the experience of guys in light cars (Miata owners are your friend).

Best,
-j

[sbcamb]

Thanks Guys!

[RM1SepEx]

R comps are indeed DOT street legal...

[Santiago]

Run them in Chicago - see how "legal" they are...or how long they last.

[Wayne Presley]

Toyo R888's are a great street legal race tire. Super soft and actually have a tread pattern

[RM1SepEx]

Santiago, they don't last long, pretty soft and sticky, but they are DOT legal. Most of my friends can get a season out of them including some autocross use. Street driving doesn't wear tires that rapidly, it's the cornering at high speed that kills them. Depends on the lots... we run a high grip concrete a bunch now and tire life is greatly reduced

The R tires all do a pretty good dual duty and you can drive to an event as long as it isn't very wet. Camber is typically critical as far as wear goes and flopping them to wear both edges can make a big diff if they are not directional. Cars allowing the same size front and rear also allow more flexibility and longer life.

[wleehendrick]

You can always remount directionals to swap l/r to get more life out of them if you chew up the inside edge from highway cruising with negative camber. The fronts on my Z always end up like that. The rears have another failure mechanism ;)

[johngeorge]

Toyo R888's are a great street legal race tire. Super soft and actually have a tread pattern

Wayne, I strongly disagree with you there, R888 is junk! we had to use them for one season in the challenge series and they SUCKED, compared to the Toyo RA1 the feel was horrid, grip was no where near RA1 and they were not as good in the wet.

[C.Plavan]

Wayne, I strongly disagree with you there, R888 is junk! we had to use them for one season in the challenge series and they SUCKED, compared to the Toyo RA1 the feel was horrid, grip was no where near RA1 and they were not as good in the wet.

I will agree with that also. Same findings on my end.

[Santiago]

I've never used the R888, but every face-to-face conversation I've had about them was pretty much in line with "junk!" Granted, that's almost always been from folks like John George who switched from a different tire.

Dan, I don't doubt one can run a DOT-legal R-comp on the street or that they are technically legal. However, the cops around my haunts aren't buying it. No discernible tread (Toyo RR, Hoosier R6, BFG R1, etc.) means no way they're allowing them. You're just asking for trouble/harassment from the cops. They can just as easily write a ticket for an car illegally prepped according to a technical specification as they can for a less-precisely defined "unsafe vehicle" (which is up to their discretion). That's what I meant by saying you can see if they're "legal." This is somewhere that a DOT-legal R-comp like the R88 would do nicely. You're much less likely getting picked on by cops with a clearly visible tread pattern.

My concern over how long they'll last had more to do with the abuse crappy Chicago roads place on tires. Some R-comps seem much more robustly built in the sidewall, but thinking of something like the Hoosier R6 hitting some of our pot-hole filled streets makes me cringe. Just seems like a waste of a damn good tire to put it through that.

Best,
-j

[RM1SepEx]

We have big time sidewall issues here as well, potholes are sometimes deep enough to drag the bottom of the car, you can't run really low profile tires unless you like repairing or replacing bent rims. I have a bunch of friends that run R comps on their cars all summer, no cop issues. Legal is legal...

[Hindsight]

Having lived in a number of states and cities, I have noticed a giant difference in how Police treat drivers and the kinds of things they will ticket for. In Oregon, you will get a ticket for not having your turn signal on long enough before turning, or having tinted windows, or being too low etc. I have heard Boston is the same. In Atlanta, they leave you alone unless you run a red light, speed, et etc. I have grown to like Atlanta....

[C.Plavan]

Being former LE, I not once pulled anyone over for tires... Nor would even care, unless they did not pass the "Attitude Test".

[Wayne Presley]

I didn't say the R888 were great race tires, but for street tires they work well and don't pick up every rock on the road.. The RA1's are great and only get faster as they wear but not much on tread. I ran Kumho V700 Victoracers on a roadster as street tires. worked great. Not so much in the wet...

[RM1SepEx]

Drivers in MA don't use blinkers!��

[Erik W. Treves]

they are called blinkahs!

36817

[Scargo]

So far this thread has focused on brands and compounds. While this is not in the "R" forum, I'd still like to ask if people can comment on SIZE combinations. I started searching and got a little bogged-down trying to find FFR's, Brando's etc. (those that have made it onto the track), tire combos that they used on the track. Perhaps people can input some of those combos if they know them or recommend them.
I was reminded by my mentor that SIZE is not everything. I am in New England. There will be hot days and there will be many cool days. I can buy Goodrich S compound for cooler days and so on. He is concerned that if I have a 1800-1900 pound car (and me at 165) in ST2 that I could risk not getting the tires up to temp if I went too big. What is too big for a 75 degree day?