View Full Version : Overheating,... Help
So I took my roadster on a 3 hour trip the other day. It was my longest distance thus far. Had a great time driving down to ocean city Maryland. But upon arriving my engine overheated. Fluid was coming out of the overflow tank. I thought it was that the overflow tank got damaged somehow and because if the fluid loss we overheated. I replaced the tank and capped off the fluid. Drove it back with no problem. The engine did not overheat. However, by the time I pulled in, the new overflow tank was also, well, overflowing. While not as dramatic, fluid was coming out of it, as if it was pressurized.
My question is why's that?
The only thing I could think of is that the radiator cap was somehow defective and thus allowing the radiator pressure to go into the tank. But the cap seems fine.
Any ideas?
Also, any recommendation for an overflow tank?
Should there be any pressure in the overflow tank at all? Is it that the new tank I bought not well sealed?
Thanks in advance guys.
michael everson
06-28-2014, 04:25 PM
Its working exactly like it should. Problem is your overflow tank is too small. I take it you are using the stainless one FFR supplies? If so try using a bigger one. I really think the one they supply is marginal in size at best. The overflow is there to catch fluid when the radiator cap releases pressure due to over pressure. The fluid then gets sucked back into the engine as it cools. Since yours is running onto the ground, it cannot suck enough back in causing air to be in your system.
Mike
Mark Dougherty
06-28-2014, 04:25 PM
Hi Rome
The overflow tank should be plumbed to the bottom
So out of the t filler neck to the bottom of the external tank. Making it a recerculation tank.
Then the second tank should not be sealed. It should be allowed to breath.
I hope this helps.
And I agree with mike the FFR unit is marginal
Its working exactly like it should. Problem is your overflow tank is too small. I take it you are using the stainless one FFR supplies? If so try using a bigger one. I really think the one they supply is marginal in size at best. The overflow is there to catch fluid when the radiator cap releases pressure due to over pressure. The fluid then gets sucked back into the engine as it cools. Since yours is running onto the ground, it cannot suck enough back in causing air to be in your system.
Mike
Thanks for the reply Michael,.. I'm not using the stainless one from factory five. I had the plastic kind. Obviously my overflow tank should not be spilling fluid as it does, so maybe what mark said may be what the problem is. I had the tube from the filler neck connected to the top of the overflow tank, meaning it couldn't suck the fluid back into the system. Maybe the over spill reduced the amount of anti freeze thus causing the engine to over heat and thus pushing more fluid into the tank. Does that make sense?
Does the above answer to Michael make sense? Also saw you on car warriors, congrats on the win.
Hi Rome
The overflow tank should be plumbed to the bottom
So out of the t filler neck to the bottom of the external tank. Making it a recerculation tank.
Then the second tank should not be sealed. It should be allowed to breath.
I hope this helps.
And I agree with mike the FFR unit is marginal
Does the above answer to Michael make sense? By second tank you mean the overflow tank itself right? Also saw you on car warriors, congrats on the win
Carlos C
06-28-2014, 09:25 PM
Rome:
It makes sense. The overflow hose coming from the filler neck should be connected at the bottom of the tank. The fitting on top of the overflow tank is a vent. If your hose is connected to the vent, you're pressurizing the tank. There shouldn't be any pressure on the overflow tank.
Also, make sure that you didn't overfill the system with coolant, and that all the air bubbles are out of the system. If everything checks out and you're still having issues with excessive hot coolant pouring into the reservoir when you turn the engine off, most likely the cap is bad. Good luck!
Carlos
Rome:
It makes sense. The overflow hose coming from the filler neck should be connected at the bottom of the tank. The fitting on top of the overflow tank is a vent. If your hose is connected to the vent, you're pressurizing the tank. There shouldn't be any pressure on the overflow tank.
Also, make sure that you didn't overfill the system with coolant, and that all the air bubbles are out of the system. If everything checks out and you're still having issues with excessive hot coolant pouring into the reservoir when you turn the engine off, most likely the cap is bad. Good luck!
Carlos
Thanks Carlos, I'll try that. It makes sense.
Mark Dougherty
06-29-2014, 05:25 AM
on all the plastic tanks there is a nipple on the bottom of the tank. When using it to recirculate the fluid you will have to drill that nipple out so fluid can flow through it.
Johnnymike
06-29-2014, 11:38 AM
Go to the threat Coolant overflow tank on 5/27 by johnnymike.
The info may be helpful. The problem I had was corrected by going to a bigger tank.
skullandbones
06-29-2014, 11:41 AM
There is a test you can perform to see if your radiator cap is working as designed. You should be very carful when doing it. I would use a welding glove and face shield not just safety glasses to avoid any splattering of hot water in case you screw up. You release the initial pressure on the cap very slowly and deliberately. It's only a small fraction of a turn then tighten again. You want to keep the radiator cap tabs engaged on the filler port. Otherwise you will have a geyser (ask me how I know). You should see the fluid moving thru the overflow tube to the expansion tank. You could have more than one thing going on. If there is a slow pressure loss, it will continue to get hotter until it fails or overheats. I had a fitting in the intake that I had mocked up but forgot to remove and seal properly. It produced one of these situations where pressure was slowly escaping with only a few drops of fluid that I didn't see. After some searching we found the culprit from the smell of the coolant at the rear end of the engine. What I'm saying is that "overheating" and the expansion tank capacity are two separate things. Good luck, WEK.
Jester
06-29-2014, 11:47 AM
You should confirm the cooling system has been burped to purge any air from the system.
You should confirm the cooling system has been burped to purge any air from the system.
Thanks everyone, but the mystery continues.
First things is that I did burp the system.
The overflow tank I have has one connection at the top but it is one that must be plumbed to the bottom of the tank because it definitely sucks the fluid back up into the system through that same line. (A mouth full of fluid confirmed that)
So what I did was I turned the car on burped it, put the cap on but left the tank open to see what's going on inside.
Just as the car got to around 90 degrees C. The fluid started flowing into the overflow tank and filling it. I shut off the car as it started to overfill and let it cool. When it did, it sucked the fluid back into the system.
I did fill it up with fluid to the top but that's how I'd always done it.
Correct me if I'm wrong but that tells me that,
A)the overflow tank isn't the problem
B)the cap must be the problem because it shouldn't be letting fluid into the tank at those temps.
My question is why would that happen.? The cap seems fine and It worked fine in the past.
Also, is the radiator cap standard. Can I replace it anywhere?
Go to the threat Coolant overflow tank on 5/27 by johnnymike.
The info may be helpful. The problem I had was corrected by going to a bigger tank.
Thanks for the heads up. Checked out that thread. I don't think the tank size is my issue though.
There is a test you can perform to see if your radiator cap is working as designed. You should be very carful when doing it. I would use a welding glove and face shield not just safety glasses to avoid any splattering of hot water in case you screw up. You release the initial pressure on the cap very slowly and deliberately. It's only a small fraction of a turn then tighten again. You want to keep the radiator cap tabs engaged on the filler port. Otherwise you will have a geyser (ask me how I know). You should see the fluid moving thru the overflow tube to the expansion tank. You could have more than one thing going on. If there is a slow pressure loss, it will continue to get hotter until it fails or overheats. I had a fitting in the intake that I had mocked up but forgot to remove and seal properly. It produced one of these situations where pressure was slowly escaping with only a few drops of fluid that I didn't see. After some searching we found the culprit from the smell of the coolant at the rear end of the engine. What I'm saying is that "overheating" and the expansion tank capacity are two separate things. Good luck, WEK.
Yeah totally agree that overflow tank and overheating are two separate issues (now). Even before doing your test, does seeing the fluid flowing into the tank even as the car is idling at 90 degrees pretty much tell me my cap is faulty ?
What do you think?
skullandbones
06-30-2014, 01:22 PM
You didn't really go into the water temps you were experiencing to call it "overheating". After you get the right expansion tank on your system, try running your engine and letting the fans cycle on and off and note the temps as well as how the water is flowing out of the cap area. I have a visual aid in my tank that shows the fluid level. I don't think it has ever been over a third full. It has almost a 2 qt capacity. I had to custom fit it where it is in the engine bay. Haven't seen anyone put one there but it works. We had to cut the bottom and 2 bungs out and then cut a small angled section then re TIG it to make it a little shorter. It fits very snug on top of the PS foot box.
As others have suggested, the cap could be weak. I have a 12 lb cap on mine. Air bubbles are possible even after you think you have gotten them all out. I changed out a water pump thinking it was bad but now I believe it was a persistent bubble. The last and sometimes overlooked culprit is the thermostat sticking intermittently. It does happen.
Good luck,
WEK.
Carlos C
06-30-2014, 01:41 PM
Rome:
You should never overfill the cooling system. If you look at OEM reservoirs, you'll see that they have a fill line, sometimes two: hot and cold levels. With the engine cold, top off the radiator, and fill the tank to the cold level (or 1/3). Run the engine until the upper hose gets hot (that tells you that the thermostat is open and recirculating the coolant). At this point, the system should be sucking coolant from the tank. If the system drains the tank completely, add some more. Otherwise, shut off the engine, and wait until it cools down. If the level coincides with the mark on the tank, you're done. If it's under the mark, add more until it reaches the mark. Depending on your system, and air bubbles, you may have to repeat the procedure.
Do you have pictures of the tank? There should be a vent on it, which should not be connected to the system.
What you're describing is the opposite of what the system should be doing. Once the engine gets up to temp and the thermostat opens, coolant from the tank should be sucked into the radiator; and when you shut off the engine, the pressure in the system increases, opening the cap (which acts as a relief valve), and re-filling the tank to its proper level.
I still think that your problem is the cap. It's only a few bucks. Replace it and let us know if you're still having problems. The cap consists of a diaphragm and spring. They both wear out with time. The problem you're experiencing can be caused by using a cap with the wrong PSI limit. You should be able to find a replacement at any auto parts store. Just make sure you get one with the recommended PSI.
Carlos
30751
Rome:
You should never overfill the cooling system. If you look at OEM reservoirs, you'll see that they have a fill line, sometimes two: hot and cold levels. With the engine cold, top off the radiator, and fill the tank to the cold level (or 1/3). Run the engine until the upper hose gets hot (that tells you that the thermostat is open and recirculating the coolant). At this point, the system should be sucking coolant from the tank. If the system drains the tank completely, add some more. Otherwise, shut off the engine, and wait until it cools down. If the level coincides with the mark on the tank, you're done. If it's under the mark, add more until it reaches the mark. Depending on your system, and air bubbles, you may have to repeat the procedure.
Do you have pictures of the tank? There should be a vent on it, which should not be connected to the system.
What you're describing is the opposite of what the system should be doing. Once the engine gets up to temp and the thermostat opens, coolant from the tank should be sucked into the radiator; and when you shut off the engine, the pressure in the system increases, opening the cap (which acts as a relief valve), and re-filling the tank to its proper level.
I still think that your problem is the cap. It's only a few bucks. Replace it and let us know if you're still having problems. The cap consists of a diaphragm and spring. They both wear out with time. The problem you're experiencing can be caused by using a cap with the wrong PSI limit. You should be able to find a replacement at any auto parts store. Just make sure you get one with the recommended PSI.
Carlos
What in the world is going on? This doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
I started with an overheating engine after a long drive.
Coolant was pouring out of the overflow tank.
Okay, I put some more coolant in and replaced the tank.
This got me home after a two hour drive without the engine overheating, but when I checked, coolant was coming out of the new overflow tank. (It was a cheap temporary one)
Okay that may have been due to the fact that I connected the hose to the top connection rather than the bottom so the tank got pressurized.
But why was the coolant going in there so forcefully in the first place?
Anyway I park the car. Check the overflow tank (the first one) and saw nothing wrong with it.
Week later, I reconnected the old tank, started the car, let it heat up and as soon as it did I noticed fluid going into the overflow tank. My original problem.
Okay so that told me the most likely suspect was the radiator cap.
I shut the car off.
Read your advices and today started her up again in order to conduct the suggested tests.
Then the craziest thing happened.
Fluid started pouring out of the water pump. There's a seal on the pump which seems to be cracked and coolant is just gushing out of it.
This is new. It wasn't doing that before ( unless it was doing so by a minuscule amount).
The coolant didn't go into the overflow tank like it did yesterday.
If the leak was the problem then why was the coolant going into the overflow tank yesterday?
What is going on?
I'm confused and now worried.
Pics and vids30752
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http://youtu.be/eO3FFjRK4FE
Pics and vids30752
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skullandbones
06-30-2014, 04:18 PM
If you have had a leak all this time(very small) like I had when I forgot to seal my plug in the intake, the system will never pressurize and equilibrate so to speak. I think you have tracked down your root cause. BTW: your system is very similar to mine (similar parts and placement of filler, etc.....) A bad cap can create that same symptom. Aren't we having fun!! Fix that leak and let's cruise. WEK.
You indicated in one of your other posts that you corrected the placement of the overflow tube and vented it, I think. The pic didn't reflect that. Just checking.
Carlos C
06-30-2014, 04:47 PM
Rome:
Is the leak coming from the weep hole on the water pump casing? If so, the pump needs to be rebuilt or replaced. It means that the mechanical seal has failed. It is possible that the seal was damaged when you had the hose connected on the tank's vent. It could have over-pressurized the system, damaging the seal.
The reason you don't have coolant going back into the tank is due to the leak. The leak on the pump and the coolant in the tank are co-related. Even if you had a small leak before, it was minuscule enough for you not to notice, and the system held its pressure. Once the seal completely let go, the system lost most of its pressure, hence the reason coolant is not being relieved into the tank.
Replace the water pump, and while you're at it, also replace the cap. If you're feeling froggy, you might as well replace the thermostat, just in case. That is unless you've already verified that the thermostat is opening at the proper temperature. Make sure you burp the system completely, and do not overfill. You should be fine after that.
Carlos
Mark Dougherty
06-30-2014, 08:22 PM
OK guys
I know what the problem is
It is the alum. T filler neck.
If you look at the pics the metal ring on the bottom of the cap is bottoming out before the black gasket seals.
I have run into this before.
You have to remove the filler neck and grind out the opening.
Make the oval round out to the counter bore and you will have it fixed
If you have had a leak all this time(very small) like I had when I forgot to seal my plug in the intake, the system will never pressurize and equilibrate so to speak. I think you have tracked down your root cause. BTW: your system is very similar to mine (similar parts and placement of filler, etc.....) A bad cap can create that same symptom. Aren't we having fun!! Fix that leak and let's cruise. WEK.
You indicated in one of your other posts that you corrected the placement of the overflow tube and vented it, I think. The pic didn't reflect that. Just checking.
Hey Skull about the overflow tube, what I said was that the tank I'm using only has that connection at the top but that it's okay because that connection goes down to the bottom of the tank and allows the coolant to be sucked back in. It allows the excess coolant to go into the tank and for the coolant to be drawn back when the engine cools. So the tank itself doesn't appear to be the problem.
As for everything else ,I guess you're right. What could have happened is this. I had a small leak at the water pump (seal). This, after a long drive allowed enough coolant to escape as to overheat the engine.
This in turn built up pressure in the system which forced the coolant past the radiator cap and into the overflow tank.
The greater loss of coolant built up even more pressure until coolant came gushing out of the overflow tank.
This excess heat and pressure also damaged my radiator cap. Allowing the coolant to go into the overflow tank without much pressure (later on after the coolant had been topped off). I failed to mention that at one point I noticed a small piece of rubber floating past the filler neck. I couldn't retrieve it. So maybe that was a piece of the radiator cap seal which broke off.
Now, given all this stress the seal on the water pump finally gave out completely and now when the engine warms, instead of it escaping out of the bad radiator cap, it comes gushing out of that seal.
Does that make sense?
My question is, do I just replace the seal and get a new cap, or do I need to replace the pump itself.
Photos of the seal attached.
If you follow the small pointer, the seal is located where it ends, behind the belt, on the pump. Can't see it from there
30786
Here is what it looks like. Where would I get a replacement for such a thing anyway.
So disappointed in engine factory. Their engine has been a nightmare from the beginning.
30787[
Rome:
Is the leak coming from the weep hole on the water pump casing? If so, the pump needs to be rebuilt or replaced. It means that the mechanical seal has failed. It is possible that the seal was damaged when you had the hose connected on the tank's vent. It could have over-pressurized the system, damaging the seal.
The reason you don't have coolant going back into the tank is due to the leak. The leak on the pump and the coolant in the tank are co-related. Even if you had a small leak before, it was minuscule enough for you not to notice, and the system held its pressure. Once the seal completely let go, the system lost most of its pressure, hence the reason coolant is not being relieved into the tank.
Replace the water pump, and while you're at it, also replace the cap. If you're feeling froggy, you might as well replace the thermostat, just in case. That is unless you've already verified that the thermostat is opening at the proper temperature. Make sure you burp the system completely, and do not overfill. You should be fine after that.
Carlos
Hey Carlos, take a look at my pics above, is that the weep hole? Would I still have to replace the whole pump in your opinion?
Also, while we're at it let me ask a stupid question.
There's this tube on the engine which seems to be plugged and not connected to anything, while there seems to be a piece near the distributor cap which seems to require some kind of connection.
Should these things be connected? What is that thing anyway?
3078830791
The unconnected tube
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Where that tube is connected
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first time builder
07-01-2014, 03:36 PM
Rome, when you say the water pump seal are you reffering to the rubber cap in photo? That is just a cap and not the water pump seal.
Kenny
Rome, when you say the water pump seal are you reffering to the rubber cap in photo? That is just a cap and not the water pump seal.
Kenny
Yes,sorry,I meant the rubber cap.
FFRSpec72
07-01-2014, 08:50 PM
Did Engine Factory put that cap on the heater bypass? If so why did they use a dry rotted one ?
Carlos C
07-01-2014, 09:04 PM
Rome:
First off, I'm concerned with the piece of rubber floating in your system. It needs to be flushed out before it creates a much bigger issue.
As far as the weep hole goes, here's a photo. The weep hole is where my finger is pointing. Depending on the manufacturer, there could be one or two of them. If the coolant is leaking from this hole, you need to replace the pump.
30810
Your pump should have two small hose connections. On the only one showing on your photo, it looks like it's been plugged. These connections go to the coolant manifold that sits atop of the intake manifold on the passenger side, and to the thermostat housing. They re-direct coolant to the heater and EGR spacer on EFI engines. I may be wrong, but I think that these are positive displacement pumps, which means that the coolant needs to flow at all times, even if the thermostat is closed. This coolant manifold creates a close loop for coolant to travel. Not sure if having these ports plugged will damage the pump. Maybe someone else can answer that. If this where the coolant is leaking from, it means that the plug is busted or loose. Your best bet is to get rid of the plugs, and properly run hoses to the lower intake manifold and to the thermostat housing. This coolant manifold is also where the coolant temp sensor screws onto. If I were you, I'd install a manifold. If you're not running a heater in your car, you can buy a hose loop from Napa (the FFR manual has the part number), and attach it to the two open connections at the rear.
On to the other issue at hand. That is an old-school vacuum-assisted distributor. That plugged hose is most likely the vacuum hose for it. Take the plug off it and start the engine. If the hose sucks air, then that's where it goes. That distributor needs vacuum to advance timing when you hit the gas. Running the engine with the vacuum line disconnected can damage the engine.
It seems like you have a few issues going on with this engine. I'd suggest that you post where you live and ask if someone on this forum lives nearby, and wouldn't mind stopping by to help you troubleshoot. Otherwise, let us know how that works out.
Carlos
skullandbones
07-01-2014, 09:11 PM
Yeah, that was confusing. I thought you had a leak in the bearing/seal on the water pump shaft. It looked like you were pointing to the weep hole. If those start leaking you can plan on replacing the pump. It doesn't always cause problems like a pressure leak would. BTW: the pic of the rubber plug is not good. That is not the way to block that off, at least the safe way. I did that and it had deteriorated in less than a couple of months. Of course, we are in AZ where rubber and plastic things don't last as long as else where. I like the tried and true method of using a small length of heater hose with a steel plug in the end with hose clamps (never failed yet). You also had the vacuum diaphragm on your distributer circled. That should be hooked to the small vacuum line on the carb. I saw another hose coming out of the intake. If it was EFI I would think it was a coolant line that was running to the EGR but you have a carb. Also, I thought the company you mentioned was very good about taking care of their customers. Did you get a dressed out engine or a short block or what? The engines I've seen from them are usually very complete and prepared very well. When you get your leak fixed, I think things will start to sort themselves out. WEK.
Did Engine Factory put that cap on the heater bypass? If so why did they use a dry rotted one ?
Yes,, they did. I certainly didn't touch it. They have a good reputation but my engine from them has been lousy.
Rome:
First off, I'm concerned with the piece of rubber floating in your system. It needs to be flushed out before it creates a much bigger issue.
As far as the weep hole goes, here's a photo. The weep hole is where my finger is pointing. Depending on the manufacturer, there could be one or two of them. If the coolant is leaking from this hole, you need to replace the pump.
30810
Your pump should have two small hose connections. On the only one showing on your photo, it looks like it's been plugged. These connections go to the coolant manifold that sits atop of the intake manifold on the passenger side, and to the thermostat housing. They re-direct coolant to the heater and EGR spacer on EFI engines. I may be wrong, but I think that these are positive displacement pumps, which means that the coolant needs to flow at all times, even if the thermostat is closed. This coolant manifold creates a close loop for coolant to travel. Not sure if having these ports plugged will damage the pump. Maybe someone else can answer that. If this where the coolant is leaking from, it means that the plug is busted or loose. Your best bet is to get rid of the plugs, and properly run hoses to the lower intake manifold and to the thermostat housing. This coolant manifold is also where the coolant temp sensor screws onto. If I were you, I'd install a manifold. If you're not running a heater in your car, you can buy a hose loop from Napa (the FFR manual has the part number), and attach it to the two open connections at the rear.
On to the other issue at hand. That is an old-school vacuum-assisted distributor. That plugged hose is most likely the vacuum hose for it. Take the plug off it and start the engine. If the hose sucks air, then that's where it goes. That distributor needs vacuum to advance timing when you hit the gas. Running the engine with the vacuum line disconnected can damage the engine.
It seems like you have a few issues going on with this engine. I'd suggest that you post where you live and ask if someone on this forum lives nearby, and wouldn't mind stopping by to help you troubleshoot. Otherwise, let us know how that works out.
Carlos
Thanks Carlos . Sorry for the confusion of not describing the problem better.
It sounds like I have to take this to a mechanic to have all those things done in a way I can feel confident about. The engine should also have a good look see to make sure there are no other problems or issues.
Yeah, that was confusing. I thought you had a leak in the bearing/seal on the water pump shaft. It looked like you were pointing to the weep hole. If those start leaking you can plan on replacing the pump. It doesn't always cause problems like a pressure leak would. BTW: the pic of the rubber plug is not good. That is not the way to block that off, at least the safe way. I did that and it had deteriorated in less than a couple of months. Of course, we are in AZ where rubber and plastic things don't last as long as else where. I like the tried and true method of using a small length of heater hose with a steel plug in the end with hose clamps (never failed yet). You also had the vacuum diaphragm on your distributer circled. That should be hooked to the small vacuum line on the carb. I saw another hose coming out of the intake. If it was EFI I would think it was a coolant line that was running to the EGR but you have a carb. Also, I thought the company you mentioned was very good about taking care of their customers. Did you get a dressed out engine or a short block or what? The engines I've seen from them are usually very complete and prepared very well. When you get your leak fixed, I think things will start to sort themselves out. WEK.
Sorry for the confusion skull.
Unfortunately my experience with EF has been terrible.
When I got my engine it almost immediately started running funny until it broke down. Turned out for some reason the roller rocker arms were breaking off. They sent me news ones and I replaced them but news ones would break. I had to have the engine removed and shipped back to them.
Turns out they were using the wrong or defective rocker arms and they had to replace them.
My starter has never been great. Every once in a while I get this terrible grinding noise from the starter trying to spin the flywheel. I have to change that pretty soon.
Now I'm having this issue and finding out plugs are where they shouldn't be and poorly connected.
I'm so frustrated and disappointed.
The engine has less than 4k on it, I shouldn't be having these issues.
I wish I'd had more mechanical knowledge and experience but I didn't.
I'm learning on the job,, I just wish it wasn't because of negative stuff.
Thanks for all your help,..
It's really appreciated.