Help and Feedback on buying used local Coupe

[AZmotorhead]

Hello everybody, I thought it would be several years before I posted on here, but a coupe is for sale in my area and I'm seriously considering pulling the trigger rather than attempting the build i don't have time to do many years from now. This will probably be a long post so please forgive the length in advance! Ok, with that said, I need some experienced eyes and ears (any locals? I know there are a couple ;)).

You can see this car on ebay. I saw it was in Phoenix and thought I'd check Craigslist and sure enough it was there. I went out and spent a few hours with the guy selling it for the finance co. Friday night. He took me for a ride, I told him I wouldn't drive until I was further committed (grew up in the motorcycle business and Dad always said you never ride someone else's bike and vice-versa). So here is what I know:

1965 Shelby Daytona Coupe $39,950. Appraised a few years ago for 75k, but obviously that didn't pan out when it came time to sell.
Ad states "built by Factory 5" in 2006, but after talking to them it was not actually assembled in-house. I can see the non-owner's potential confusion between mfg. and builder. I won't go into all the specs as they're on the ebay listing and local Phoenix Craigslist. It's not a color I'm used to seeing, blue, but kind of a light metalflake/candy. Serial # F5R 1000274CP (2006) 10,000 miles. Quite a few for one of these IMO.


The body fit/finish seem great. a Windshield seal looks a little ill-fit/peeling, and some rubber trim looked like it needed reglued. Only major standout was the passenger door drops about 3/8" once it comes out of the jamb, so something is loose, worn etc.. It has to be lifted before closing or it hits/rubs. On a test drive it was quickly apparent that this is probably NOT the more expensive IFR as the rear end jolted every bit as well as my 73 CJ 5 with go-car wheelbase. Ad states 4 link solid axle. Car is setup for 6'5" driver (Gurney bubble) and I'm 5'10 so seat will need moved up/forward. I didn't SEE anything that said donor car and he said it has a 302 crate motor, but I haven't put it on a lift. Yet. Interior is sparse but seemed complete. Autometer for all gauges. Kirkey race seats/simpson belts. I'd say this thing saw some curves/track time, though it didn't seem abused at all. Not in love with the color blue, but it appears to be great paint/body. Ad states a gazillion coats. I'm more into go than show though. Power steering pump leaks a little/makes sound similar to a blower whine. I did not drive it, but it seemed pretty dialed in from my seat.

With that said, what are things that will make me say "oh crap, I wish I'd known that before I bought this!" It has AC (Arizona) but only one duct on each side???. I'd want to add more.

Questions I have are:
-What would it take to update to current specs. I understand early gens had lots of body fitment issues, but this one SEEMS to be good as far as gaps, cracks, fitment (aside from passenger door).

-Can IFR be added to this car? I know parts alone will be expensive, but what about fab work and labor? Not necessary, but if I ever want to it would be good to know it can be done.

-I know the newer spindles are often discussed. Can I swap these, and how much $$$ and work? Or how do I know if I have them, and why are they such an upgrade?

-Can I add Dynamat type sound/heat insulation on a built car, or will it leave weak links in the insulation chain, so to speak? It's 110 here today :p

-Insurance: I called Hagerty and need to send them some photos, but should I be able to get classic car insurance? If not I can't justify it since it won't get a lot of mileage.

-And finally, the F word. Financing. Now before Dad's and Grandpa's start lecturing about if you can't pay cash you can't afford it, (I've read all I could find on the topic)-and I'm often the one GIVING that lecture...I'm almost 43, have quite a bit in retirement from NOT buying things like this, taking many vacations etc...Always buying used cars with miles, saving and saving more (good jobs, too). House is worth 2x what I owe, maybe 3x. Credit score is 800, bachelor no kids, and no plans for kids. One reason I'm still single unfortunately. I could sell some non-retirement stock and pay cash, but that money is better left where it is IMO. If it hit the fan, I could pay cash/or just sell it.

I'm guessing credit union loan, but since this isn't an actually 1965, I'm wondering if it fits into that category. Some banks will loan on a 10 year old car based on mfg. date, and this would be within 10 years. Kind of conflicting birth dates for this thing depending how you look at it.

I would probably put 10k down, and borrow 30k, with plans to pay monthly with bigger chunks as bonus checks etc. come in.

So please bring the thoughts and opinions, I'd rather feel pain now than after dropping 40+k on one of these so let 'em fly!

Thank you very much in advance. Sorry for the long email, and if anybody on here knows history of this car "run like hell!" or is planning to buy it, just let me know and I'll go back to swapping the motor in my Jeep :roll eyes:

Chris in Phoenix, 85020 Happy to give out my phone number if it's safe to do so on here.

[loeffler1]

1st get a good alignment shop to look at rear suspension. Levy sells adjustable lower rear control arms that will probably take away the creak. I would not go IRS (I'm assuming you meant IRS not IFR) as I think you hook up better with 3 link or 4 link and I do believe the cost would be proibitive for what you'ld get. If it is 4link, might be donor. peer underneath and see if front has stamped control arms or the fabricated ones from FFR, that might tell pretty quick but not necessarily so as the FFR control arms could be added. This probably was a grey body if the # was 274. It is not a Shelby if it was built by FFR. I think you can straighten out the door OK with a good body guy, especially one that has worked on Corvettes. Changing colors should not be a problem as lots of guys paint with the body on, just extra work taping to make sure overspray doesn't get where you don't want it. 10,00 miles is not a lot of mileage. Roy Hewson is kicking up 30,000 on his coupe in Tamworth, NH. Lastly get a good engine man to test the engine for soundness. Engines are a big buck item. Oh and front spindle work is no big deal and not too expensive. Don't see any reason you can't reinsulate, not that big a job. I prefer Second Skin Audio to Dynamat but this is just a preference.

I'm thinking if the finance company has this for sale it might be a foreclosure and you might be able to negotiate a better price. At $40 big ones it sounds a lot for what you are getting. some really nice ones have sold for similar prices in the past. If it was such a great deal it would have been gone by now. My insurance is with Robin at Midwest, $503/year and 6,000 mile allowance. I don't know if Hagerty does kit cars. Looks like the appraiser was off a bit with the numbers as the car seems to be unfinished.

I don't know if I've answered all your questions, however I'm sure others will chime in, usually get a few different view points that you can weigh for the final decision.

Bottom line, I say go for it if you can get a better deal.

[CJBergquist]

If this is the car it looks like a very good deal for $40K...a great deal if you can get it for less.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/cto/4522568357.html

AC, adjustable front control arms, looks like fire suppression system, kirkey seats, nice paint, carpets and door panels...quality of build looks good to me.

[CraigS]

The only negative I see is the 4 link rear suspension. Upgrades can be done. 3 link for <$1000 assuming it has coilovers already. IRS is a lot more. Have you considered a home equity loan. Interest rates are really low.

[edwardb]

Couple of observations. The car looks pretty good. At least in the pictures. It would be very difficult to build one for that price. Some of the adds (A/C, EFI, fire suppression) are not cheap. 10K miles really isn't bad for that vintage, as already stated. Because of their more all-weather capability, A/C, etc. I've seen Coupes driven a bit more than Roadsters. So not surprising at all. If it is a 4-link, it can be upgraded to 3-link pretty easily if needed. Aftermarket 4-link parts make a decent car, so you can decide. IRS would be a major project. Doable but 3-link is going to get you close for far less cost/effort. 410 HP is pretty unlikely, at least based upon the engine description available. I would suggest that's a bit of overselling. Bilstein shocks are OK, but be aware in that timeframe there was a big recall and FFR stopped using them. They can be reworked if not done and applicable. The door sag is probably easily fixed. There are bronze bushings in the hinges that wear and can be replaced. I'll bet with new bushings and shoulder bolts (less than $100 for all) that could be fixed. As already stated, adding insulation is easy. Also a good chance to replace the carpet and really freshen up the interior. I like the blue BTW. Hagerty probably won't insure that car. At least when I've talked to them, they're not a big fan of kit cars. Plus it's mainly show and not regular driving insurance. As already stated, Midwest (American Modern) can take care of you. Works great for me. Won't say anything about financing vs. cash other than to say I'll bet you'd be getting a personal loan vs. a car loan. I doubt many would loan against the value of the car.

[DownRange762]

Regarding insurance, I just got a quote from Haggerty to add a Type '65 to my existing (military vehicles) policy with them. They didn't hesitate to give a quote as they are familiar with the Factory Five products. My quote was $523 a year for $500,000 liability coverage and an agreed upon value of $60,000 for a completed car. I've always found Haggerty to be easy to deal with.

[OCCPete]

Looks like a nice car for the price. On the financing side, I recommend some reading here: http://www.daveramsey.com/home/ ;)

[edwardb]

Regarding insurance, I just got a quote from Haggerty to add a Type '65 to my existing (military vehicles) policy with them. They didn't hesitate to give a quote as they are familiar with the Factory Five products. My quote was $523 a year for $500,000 liability coverage and an agreed upon value of $60,000 for a completed car. I've always found Haggerty to be easy to deal with.

I'm a little surprised about this, although certainly not doubting your experience. Wasn't my experience though regarding kit cars, specifically mentioning Factory Five. Although was a couple of years ago, so maybe they've changed their tune a bit. But I stick by what I did say about it's mainly for shows, cruising, etc. and not regular driving insurance. Right off their website, highlight is mine: "Our policy allows you occasional pleasure use, so you can go for a weekend cruise or attend unlimited events with no fixed mileage restrictions**." "** Occasional pleasure use does not mean use for daily driving to and from work or school, routine shopping, etc." If that fits how you're going to use your car, great. By all accounts a great company and certainly an advocate for our hobby. But if want to use your car more freely than described, you may want to look at other options.

[Jeff Kleiner]

The only negative I see is the 4 link rear suspension. Upgrades can be done. 3 link for <$1000 assuming it has coilovers already.

If considering an upgrade to the rear suspension don't forget to check out Levy's 5 link.

Jeff

[AZmotorhead]

Wow, thanks everybody. Fantastic advice, and great to get multiplefolks getting back with me. Well it sounds like I might have a keeper here, with several things to still check out. I've got a key to my mechanic friend's shop, but I really want to get it on a lift at a shop that has built or serviced (or both) the coupes in the Phoenix/Scottsdale area, or at least the Cobras to look for anything we might miss. Multiple eyes can't hurt. It may indeed be sourced from a donor vehicle. I don't know what a dyno run costs, but it might be worth the money in case it comes in much under the quoted amount. If it really has 320 horsepower vs. 410 etc., that might justify a price drop. I would say it definitely has a cam, it's nice and lopey, and kind of bogs down at lower revs. He mentioned he never uses the higher gears. My thought was "lower gearing will be added to the list." If it has 3:27 gears, maybe change the ring and pinion (if that simple) to 3:45, 3.73, 4.10 (I understand the higher the number the lower-geared it will be (more torque/more revs/worse mileage). I'd have to crunch the numbers after a seat of the pants check and writing down RPM's at different speeds. I know I'm not concerned with putting up high triple digit speeds. I'd much rather be able to get up there quickly, but still have 5th for mileage/highway. If it's a donor build 3:27 may be what came stock, but it really seemed like the revs were REAL low in the first 3 gears. I know a cammed engine generally doesn't run well in the lower RPM's and that's a fine tradeoff with me. Closer inspection needed there. I put cams in my daily driver Automatic with paddle shifters. If I'm loping along in 5th gear I have to drop it to 4th or it isn't too happy and kind of, well it isn't missing, not sure how to describe it. Kind of like the senator referring to porn "I can't describe it, but I know it when I see (or in this case, feel and hear) it."

Regarding creaking...I may have miss typed, but it actually didn't have any creaking or odd noises, outside of the power steering pump, and I kind of expected quirky sounds one of these. It did ride like a Radio Flyer wagon in the back, so upgrading the rear suspension sounds like a no-brainer down the road, and getting "close" without going IRS (not IFR like I typed) would be the way to go. As my old neighbor would say "Boy, we ain't fly'in it to the moon." And thanks for the great advise on those upgrade options!

I'll look for stamped vs. FFR control arms. I wonder if the factory could tell me if this has the flawed shocks, and if they have been changed out. I need to check, let me know if there is anything else I should check with FFR, I don't want to waste their time with a bunch of calls/questions.

Bronze bushings for the doors...sounds easy enough. I was the Texas rep for Schwinn and replaceable bronze bushings kept many Schwinn Air-Dynes alive for decades. I'm just wondering if actually getting TO them might take a lot of rivet-drilling etc., and I'm wondering why the passenger door drops and the driver door is tight. Oh well, it's used and I'll find out eventually.

Car definitely won't be a daily driver, and if I had to get daily driver insurance, I wouldn't buy it. Too much like having an airplane where just sitting around is still expensive.

Hagerty has my info and I expect information tomorrow morning on insurance, and they do not finance anymore, but have a link to Woodward. I did a Google search, and it sounded like Woodward is a good place for financing. The "official Barrett Jackson" program. So I called them and the rates are around 6%, he didn't think I would have any problem qualifying or getting a loan for that car, and he pretty much guaranteed they would have the best rates. I gave him my info but told him not to pull the trigger until I get the insurance information. I'll check the others mentioned here including the Dave Ramsey link.

Huge thanks guys. I'd also love to connect with some local Phoenix area members. I haven't checked the members map but will do that.

Hopefully more to come.....

-Chris

[riptide motorsport]

Can't really touch one for less, the mileage to me is a good thing. Shows its built right. Also remember, your driving today, not building, that's got value too. Also you could work overtime hours eaqual to what you spent building to offset the costs.....and your still driving today. A lot of positives. If its a finance company, they'll probably cut a good deal as well as finance it....jmho, steven

[Doutie]

About Financing, take a look at JJ Best Banc and Co. on the web. I tried my local credit union that I'd done business with for thirty years and they wouldn't touch. Two days faxing paper back and forth and my Factory Five roadster purchase was a done deal. Nice people to work with and very knowledgeable about Factory Fives.
As someone else mentioned I am uses Midwest Insurance, also a good outfit and a supporting ff5 vendor. I sun burnt my old balding head this weekend, so that roof and AC look really good to me. Go For It,
Doutie

[Gordon Levy]

I know the car. Please feel free to give me a call at 520-494-2745.

[AZmotorhead]

Will do Gordon, thanks and good to know you're local-Chris

[AZmotorhead]

Well I drove it tonight and confirmed I do indeed want it. I'd say I'm 90% sure I'll buy it, and he's holding it for me. Inspection/final price will be the deciding factors. Financing and insurance are good to go, and Gordon Levy is going to try and get up Friday to put some experienced eyes on it. I've tried to catch any issues, and below I listed the main ones that come to mind. I'd like to know if any of you have any thoughts or recommendations on these:

-Engine raps out through 1st and 2nd, but when accelerating in 3rd gear it sputters/cuts out a little bit midway through the tach. Why not in 1st or 2nd, but in 3rd....extra wind resistance+clogged injector(s)?

-The turn signals didn't work, and he said they went out Saturday night when he turned the lights on. Fuse? If so, what would cause it to blow? He's been taking it to a Scottsdale car show/get together every Saturday night. Electrical is my weakness.

-The plexi rear window rattled a bit, at least some kind of sound was coming from the left rear.

-The ride quality was actually pretty nice tonight, but then again I was also sitting on about 6" of pillow since it's setup for 6'5" and I'm 5'10" We must have hit a couple significant bumps the other night.

-Appraisal shows PS and PB, but the brakes are definitely not power, need to verify the PB components are even there. And the power steering is definitely out, but we knew that. Not sure if PB's are out or simply nonexistent. I see a fluid reservoir but it looks like aluminum shroud over where a brake booster would be but the photo I have isn't clear.

-And the most frustrating/noticeable (dangerous?) thing is those mirrors. Small and pretty much useless. Won't adjust or stay in near-adjustment. Any go-to replacements?

But for now it's looking like I'll own this in the next week or two. Thanks for any feedback :)
-Chris

[skullandbones]

AZ,

I'm with you on the mirrors. If they aren't Ray Dot then you can probably upgrade to them with the correct mounting brackets and get good use out of them. However, it is not like your daily driver unless you put some of those ugly big mirrors on it! If you have Gordon in your corner, he should be able to advise about the PS and PB. The PS is something I would suggest as I have it and love it. I'm not so keen on the PB. You could drive and evaluate as you go. The seat should be easy to customize to your needs with sliders and spacers to fit your body type. BTW: I would leave the Gurney Bubble. That would be a real conversation piece. Everything you have mentioned this go round is fairly minor in the "hand built race car" world. That's what you are stepping into when you buy that coupe. I think Gordon could tell you if there are any show stoppers. Good luck, WEK.

[Jeff Kleiner]

-Engine raps out through 1st and 2nd, but when accelerating in 3rd gear it sputters/cuts out a little bit midway through the tach. Why not in 1st or 2nd, but in 3rd....extra wind resistance+clogged injector(s)?

Sounds like it is running out of fuel; restricted filter, weak pump or improper fuel mapping.




-The turn signals didn't work, and he said they went out Saturday night when he turned the lights on. Fuse?

Turn signals and running lights operate independently of one another through different wires so it isn't likely that turning on the lights caused them to fail. Could be a fuse (if so you need to determine what caused it to blow) or flasher unit, feed power or perhaps they have never worked...




-Appraisal shows PS and PB, but the brakes are definitely not power, need to verify the PB components are even there. And the power steering is definitely out, but we knew that. Not sure if PB's are out or simply nonexistent. I see a fluid reservoir but it looks like aluminum shroud over where a brake booster would be but the photo I have isn't clear.

Looking at the Craigslist photos I can see that the car has a power steering pump but does not have a power brake booster.

Having Gordon look at the car is a wise move.

Good luck,
Jeff

[AZmotorhead]

Well I pulled the trigger. I'm soon to be the owner of one 2006 Type 65 coupe. Gordon came up and went over the car. Nothing TOO major except he said I should change all the shocks and springs. Kind of a chunk right up front, but he said the Bilstein shocks can break, which I read though I haven't got the serial numbers to verify what I have with FFR, but will pull those when I get it to my garage. Also the power steering pumps die fast and he has a mod that saves them. I'm hoping to get it down there to get the seat tracks/adjusted, and PS pump modified/swapped, then do the suspension later if it is safe to wait.

So my immediate priorities are
a) title transfer etc., then getting it home. Probably have it in the garage before Sunday.

b) Mirrors...Gordon recommended a 16" convex mirror to replace the rearview mirror. The Kirkeys are big and tall but hopefully it will give me a little more view.
c) SIDE mirrors. They're bolted to the doors and pretty much useless. Any recommendations on "fisheye" lenses for the stock mirrors to at least get me by for a while? Whether they replace or just stick over the stock glass. I don't plan to spare much in the way of expense on getting the mirrors functional without uglying it up too much. I might do the nice Cobra mirrors that bolt on up high on the doors, and keep the factory mirror(s) mounted, or figure out a somewhat-decent way to plug the existing holes. I'll also measure the spacing of the existing holes and start looking at different mirrors, too. I've thought about sculpting some aluminum brackets that fit the existing door holes (would have been more functional had they been mounted further forward), then mounting some different mirrors to those aluminum brackets, some that look appropriate but have a little more reach-all while keeping the existing holes. I think with enough time, thinking and home engineering and I should be able to get something to work well... but I want something short-term so I can drive it to Levy, etc. I'm anal about seeing what's going on around me. As a road-rep for nearly 20 years I've had too many close-enough calls to be driving blind, even if I'm generally moving a little quicker than most traffic. Plus this thing will probably attract the "hey wanna race?" and fast & furious crowds, neither of who I want in close proximity, especially if I can't see them.

c) Seat...setup for a 6'5" driver, I'm 5'10" on a good day. Gordon has some tracks at his shop he said he can install. I'm not sure the width of the Kirkey DS, but Gordon thought it was 16" or 17". I might be up for swapping someone for a narrower seat if you've gained a few pounds an have a narrower one. I'll find out what I have when I get it. I'm 5'10, 165 for reference.

Once I can "see", getting it down to Gordon for the seat/PS pump mods.

But that's it for now. If anybody has mirror tips, whether brand/model, website link or just "do a search for _____" that would be fantastic. Also, any car covers that you would recommend? Looking for specific brand/model numbers, or stock cars that are a close match. Gordon said 1963-67 Vettes were a close match. Thanks again for all of the tips and feedback everybody. Greatly appreciated!

-Chris

[68GT500MAN]

Congratulations on the purchase. Now you are a member of one of the greatest communities in the world!
Doug

[Austexican]

In regard to the IRS upgrade, I had the Factory Five IRS setup retrofitted in my coupe using a Lincoln differential with positraction and a change to 3.73 gears. That cost me $9,000. I am happy with the result and I have driven it on the track. The mirrors you want are available here:
http://www.bre2.net/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=B&Product_Code=010D01&Category_Code=mirror

[AZmotorhead]

Well all right! I drove it home. And I LOVE this thing. It's EXACTLY what I wanted. Brutal, wildly impractical, and a blast to drive (and sexy to boot). It just feels great, and quite controllable when the rear gets loose (dipping my toes in that water carefully).

But when I got it home, I scarily discovered a fresh new priority. The Emergency/parking brake does little to nothing to hold on my extremely steep driveway, which also has little transition before hitting my very narrow garage opening (seller confirmed it WOULD hold on a hill-wrong!)

So bottom line, any tips, instructions or links on tightening the E-Brake? I don't have the manual yet. On order. The little I could find online didn't give much help. The most similar question had no replies. Once I get familiar with the pedals, seat moved up and forward etc., it will be easy to tap the throttle while holding the brake, but the penalty for error is huge, so I want to get the brake tightened asap. Thanks guys. Meeting my mechanic buddy at his shop tomorrow to get it on a lift and start tinkering with some minor issues, but I'd like to fix asap.

Thanks, and not a hint of regret buying this thing at this point, just want to make sure it doesn't have sex with my aluminum/glass garage door or a post. Phew!

-Chris in Phoenix

[skullandbones]

AZ,

Congrats on getting it home.

The seller probably wasn't encountering your type of "hill". By all means, that would be my first project with your mechanic. You know besides being called an emergency brake and parking brake it was also called a "hand brake". The dragsters use them too. So releasing your right foot for the go pedal and having the clutch to modulate the activity, you can still bail out with the hand brake and try again and again. I'm on a gentle slope to my garage and still had to approach the door with caution many times before feeling confident enough to just drive in like a normal DD.

I'm jealous. Those coupes are amazing. It's hard to trump the roadster but the coupe is a very special animal!!! You should have some great times with it.

Keep us informed and some pics to verify. You know the rule: no pics/video, it didn't happen!

Good luck,

WEK.

[AZmotorhead]

Skullandbones, we'll have to get together after the weather cools down a bit. Maybe meet at an event somewhere. Also, I WILL get some pics up, but Sunday discovered a front main seal leak, and a leak out of EACH header that we missed during the inspection, though we did get the e brake tightened.

Even running subpar, this car feels more and more like a glove every time I get behind the wheel. Just trying to get these priorities dialed in, then I'll clean it up and get some pics posted. I tried to post an Avatar photo but I was "blocked." I figure that will change after more posts???

-Chris

(p.s.....anybody have suggestions on header gaskets? I read Felpro are good, and that they actually mfg. Motorcraft. The ones that are on and leaking look like copper. It's a 302 crate motor, circa 2005, but no receipts to know exactly what I have, and I haven't found a way to ID the motor-yet).