Wareham Special Design Project

[Vman7]

Inwork Codename: Barchetta Design Project

Old name:
Agile Bellezza (Agile Beauty) or Vigoroso (Vigorous) Not sure on working title yet.

Here are the links to each related Album. Each Title in Bold Black is a link.

Albums:
Wareham Special Design Project (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=894)
Ferrari Inspiration (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=843)

Related Thread(s)
Padanaram / Wareham Design Project (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?17076-Padanaram-Wareham-Design-Project)



Before I get into what car designs had an influence on this project. I would like to give a background of how this design project came about.

During the summer of 2006 I started doing some research on some european cars, mostly Ferrari from the '50s. The idea I had in mind was using the FFR Roadster as a base (I think at the time it was the MKIII). Since FFR Roadster has a strong base, Chassis and body wise. I came across 2 Ferrari designs that fit the bill. One having the right look, but having a 102.4" wheelbase, the other is basicly it's smaller brother with a 88.6" wheelbase. At this point I had the design influences I was looking for.

Now here comes the part why this project has not been talked about with anybody, I mean nobody.

I was and still am hesitant in starting a thread or even talking about this project, due to that it might offend some of the FFR Roadster purist.

First off this would not be a Ferrari replica, it is influenced by Ferrari designs. The Agile Bellezza would be one it's own design, just using the FFR chassis and the body as a base. Mostly the front and rear of the now FFR MKIV model would be changed, also the hood scoop area. The interior Dashboard would have a little change as well as the area between the seats would be kind of like C1 corvette, where a molded piece would curve around and down around the seats. The trunk lid would be changed to reflex the repostioning of the fuel cap to rear center. The front turn signals and rear tail lights would be the same as the FFR Roadster, only they would recessed halfway in. The tail lights would still be vertical, just repositioned a litte. Other then that the FFR body would be the same.

So you can see way I am still somewhat hesitant of posting this. But hopefully some will really like the idea.

Ok now on to the 2 cars that influenced this project.

1st is the Ferrari 375 MM Pinin Farina Spyder:

Specs

V12
Weight: 1984.2 lbs
Alum. Body
Wheelbase: 102.4"
Track: Front 52.2"/Rear 52"

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29777&d=1401997139
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29775&d=1401997131
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29780&d=1401997148

[Vman7]

more of the Ferrari 375

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29773&d=1401997124
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29776&d=1401997135
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29774&d=1401997127
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29779&d=1401997143

[Vman7]

2nd is the Ferrari 500 Mondial Pinin Farina Spyder (Ferrari 375 MM Spyder's little brother):

Specs

Tipo 110 Straight 4
Alum. Body
Wheelbase: 88.6"
Track: Front 50.3"/Rear 50.6"

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29785&d=1401997374
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29786&d=1401997377
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29788&d=1401997382
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=29787&d=1401997379


As you can tell by the specs above on the wheelbase and track that the 500 mondial is closer to the FFR Radster, as far as the track the FFR Roadster is wider.

Let me know what you think of this idea, so I can somewhat determine how I should proceed with this design project.

Thanks :)
David

[skullandbones]

That's a beautiful car to use as your inspiration. I for one (MKIII owner) would like to see your iterations on the Ferrari designs. I have a hard time understanding the so called "purists" attitude about these cars (C****). If it is a replica, that's what it is. You can make it as close to original as you want and it is still a replica. Maybe it's the process of doing that that makes it so attractive. That's what's so cool about building these cars. You can create your own version of this iconic car. Personally, I love the way it feels to drive something that is very similar in construction to one of the originals but I would be lying if I said the looks made no difference. The only thing I can be certain about is the one I saw at Barrett Jackson that had outside door handles was just wrong on so many levels, I couldn't even take a picture of it. Good luck and looking forward to the images. WEK.

[MPTech]

I've always thought the design of the FFR Chassis was so good and well engineered, but couldn't understand why other bodies weren't being used. These bodies look like an excellent opportunity to use the chassis as a product. Is you design an engineering exercise or do you plan to build one?
Cool Project& beautiful cars! keep us posted.

I agree those are very cool, love the race-look. Were you thinking an American V8 or something more exotic?

[Vman7]

I've always thought the design of the FFR Chassis was so good and well engineered, but couldn't understand why other bodies weren't being used. These bodies look like an excellent opportunity to use the chassis as a product. Is you design an engineering exercise or do you plan to build one?
Cool Project& beautiful cars! keep us posted.

I agree those are very cool, love the race-look. Were you thinking an American V8 or something more exotic?

More of a design exercise at this point, but it sure would be cool to build one :)
Since it would be using the FFR chassis, I am leaning more to an American V8.

David

[WIS89]

David-

I think you have a very cool idea. Those Ferraris are super sexy cars, and using an awesome platform like the FFR Roadster seems to make a great deal of sense. I even think the Roadster body can get you a pretty good start frankly.

I like your idea, and would subscribe to any thread you created on your build process. I hope you decide to move forward with it, and I wish you luck!

Regards,

Steve

[Vman7]

1 star rating out of 5 stars for this thread........are you kidding me, the thread hasn't even taken off yet.....Really!! oh let me guess one of the purist got pissed.......roflmbo

[Hank F]

Vman check out Ferrari barchetta 0086E,Fontana bodied special. After my fliptop that might be next!!

hANK

[Vman7]

Vman check out Ferrari barchetta 0086E,Fontana bodied special. After my fliptop that might be next!!

hANK

Hard to find pictures on that one. on Ultimatecarpage.com, it says Ferrari built 27 212 export models, but only 1 Fontana, so I guess it is very very rare.
Are you sure you would like to do that one? Kind of ugly, I can think of a lot of other 1950s Ferraris that look a lot better then that. But it is interesting though, especially the way the spare tire is mounted.

I would to find out more about that Fontana body, I'll have to do some more research :)

btw how is the "flip top" coming along?

David

[riptide motorsport]

I think it would be an excellent project...

[Vman7]

Hank

Ok, I found a couple of pictures of the fontana with paint and a grill, and it looks a lot better, but now I am confused since the one I found before was a barn find (which explains why it looked so ugly....lol) but according to Utlimatecarpage there was only one built, so how can there be one that is barn find and another that is painted......hmm.

David

[carbon fiber]

The only thing that would kill it for me is the v8, it would get some strange looks when you fired it up! Have you done any more work on the gtm re-work you were doing? Mine's coming along nicely in 3d, but i'm not showing it until it's finished! Keep 'em coming David, everyone is still waiting on FFR to build the 818 coupe and '33 pickup you designed.

[Vman7]

The only thing that would kill it for me is the v8, it would get some strange looks when you fired it up! Have you done any more work on the gtm re-work you were doing? Mine's coming along nicely in 3d, but i'm not showing it until it's finished! Keep 'em coming David, everyone is still waiting on FFR to build the 818 coupe and '33 pickup you designed.

Thanks :) No I haven't worked on the GTM stuff in a long time. I took a break for about the last few months, didn't plan on that long......lol got busy doing stuff around the house. Mostly working on the 33 stuff and the 818 once FFR decides on a hardtop, and now this new project.

I forgot all about your design you were working, until you brought it up. Look forward to seeing what your will look like :)

David

[carbon fiber]

29814A little teaser, this is a plug i made for the front of an F1 style intake i'm doing. the very front part of the intake will be cf, about 1 1/4". (a little over half the width of the plug in the pic). I've went overboard with the mods, but it'll be worth it in the end to have my dream car.

[tirod]

I would think that the purists would remember AC copied the 54 era Barchetta to come up with what they had. And the irony was CS could provide the 260 Ford at a time when their previous engine supplier dropped out - to build a racer competing directly against the original body design team.

Going back full circle to direct Ferrari influence is just closing the loop.

Being a Coupe kind of guy, the 250 California would be the project. And being sort of a purist, I would try to pick a motor that could emulate the looks - a V10 with stacks.

Would the Ferrari purists object when you showed up for one of their runs, maybe. We know what the difference is, tho, you get to drive it daily all you want, $250,000 isn't on the line leaving it parked at Walmart.

[Vman7]

29814A little teaser, this is a plug i made for the front of an F1 style intake i'm doing. the very front part of the intake will be cf, about 1 1/4". (a little over half the width of the plug in the pic). I've went overboard with the mods, but it'll be worth it in the end to have my dream car.

When I 1st saw that I thought of the rack for billard balls.....lol, until I read what you posted.

[carbon fiber]

When I 1st saw that I thought of the rack for billard balls.....lol, until I read what you posted. LOL! You'd have to play 3-ball!

[Vman7]

rofl.........now you have me thinking about prop wash.........inside joke for us that use to work on airplanes (used that joke when I was in the NAVY)

[carbon fiber]

I'm familiar, i used to restore/rebuild wwII warbirds, including this ultra rare NAA xp-82. (only xp82 in existance - Twin Merlins)2981529816 Disclaimer: The horrible job riviting the skins was done after i left!

[Hank F]

David it is the same car,it was in very poor condition when found and the new owner had it restored in New England.

Hank

[Vman7]

David it is the same car,it was in very poor condition when found and the new owner had it restored in New England.

Hank

I figured it was something along those lines. Started laying out Agile Bellezza design in photoshop last night.

[bwwooster]

I like the idea. The FFR chassis is a solid one and could pretty easily accommodate a variety of bodies or drivetrains. Hmmm... The tires and wheels might be a bit of a challenge or expense, the early '50s Italian sports racers usually had relatively tall, skinny center-lock Borrani wire wheels. Maybe Halibrand kidney beans would fit in with a V-8 rumble.

My suggestion though, would be the howl of an inline six, either from BMW or Jaguar.

The wires must be possible. This car was built (from scratch!) just a few years ago:
29846

Damn! Now I've got another entry on the list of cars I gotta build!

[Vman7]

I would think that the purists would remember AC copied the 54 era Barchetta to come up with what they had. And the irony was CS could provide the 260 Ford at a time when their previous engine supplier dropped out - to build a racer competing directly against the original body design team.

Going back full circle to direct Ferrari influence is just closing the loop.

Being a Coupe kind of guy, the 250 California would be the project. And being sort of a purist, I would try to pick a motor that could emulate the looks - a V10 with stacks.

Would the Ferrari purists object when you showed up for one of their runs, maybe. We know what the difference is, tho, you get to drive it daily all you want, $250,000 isn't on the line leaving it parked at Walmart.

I can't believe I missed this, sorry about that, I must have been tired or something.

The 250 California is a beautiful car, like a lot of the Ferrari around that time.

I could never understand why some ppl would pay that kind of money for a car, just to worry about something happen to it. That's one of the nice things about having a kit car/replica car, you can take it out and have some fun with it, and have to worry as much.

David

[Vman7]

I like the idea. The FFR chassis is a solid one and could pretty easily accommodate a variety of bodies or drivetrains. Hmmm... The tires and wheels might be a bit of a challenge or expense, the early '50s Italian sports racers usually had relatively tall, skinny center-lock Borrani wire wheels. Maybe Halibrand kidney beans would fit in with a V-8 rumble.

My suggestion though, would be the howl of an inline six, either from BMW or Jaguar.


The wires must be possible. This car was built (from scratch!) just a few years ago:
29846

Damn! Now I've got another entry on the list of cars I gotta build!

Wow! for a scratch built, that is one beautiful car! Love the color too.

I was thinking a American V8, if staying with the main FFR body, meaning the fender flares would stay. Now if the design was to be more like the 375 or the 500 monial, mostly the 500 mondial, then I would say a six, or even maybe a 4cyl would work nice.

One of the main reasons I am trying to stay away from designing the car to close to the orig Ferraris is to stay away from any legal stuff. The idea is to hopefully have a design that could actually be produced, so many could have the opportunity to have something is different.

David

[Vman7]

Still can't make my mind up on a name for this design.....lol

When I put Agile Beauty in the google translator it comes out Bellezza Agile.......backwards, since I don't speak Italian, not sure which way is actually right.

Anyhoot, trying to get the design name down to one word. Here some of the names I have come up with in english, doesn't necessarily have to be converted to Italian, I just thought it would be kind of fitting since the design is influenced by some Ferrari designs.

Here are some names I have come up with so far:

Agile Beauty
Agile Beast
Alluring
Spirited
Vibrant
vivacious
Vigorous
Thor's Hammer.....lol

Of cousre these would be something like, Spirited Spyder etc.

David

[Vman7]

Started laying out the design in Photoshop the other night, well actually early morning.

Once I get to a point of where the design is coming along I'll post some stuff. Like mockups.

David

[Vman7]

Ah Shazbot! now that FFR is coming out with the 289 FIA, I might have to change which car this design will be based on. The 289 FIA is closer to the body I am looking for, for a base to work with. :)

David

[Tom Veale]

Hi David,

A VW/Audi W-12 Engine will fit in these chassis. Make very nice sounds and have plenty of power and torque. However, most were built to marry to AWD automatic drive trains. The biggest problem with the VW/Audi W12 is lack of availability.

I'd been thinking about attempting to adapt a late '50s or early '60s sports racer body to the FFR Hot Rod frame, too. Something like the Scarab or the Devin Chevy bodys. The Cheetah might be fun, but don't know how the wheelbase might match up to either the Cobra frame or the FFR Hot Rod frame.

Cheetah:
https://www.google.com/search?q=devin+ss+chevrolet&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=i-mZU97aD8OPyASDp4H4Dw&ved=0CCYQ7Ak&biw=1366&bih=643#q=Cheetah+Car+Photos&tbm=isch

Devin SS Chevy:
https://www.google.com/search?q=devin+ss+chevrolet&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=i-mZU97aD8OPyASDp4H4Dw&ved=0CCYQ7Ak&biw=1366&bih=643

Scarab:
https://www.google.com/search?q=devin+ss+chevrolet&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=i-mZU97aD8OPyASDp4H4Dw&ved=0CCYQ7Ak&biw=1366&bih=643#q=Scarab+Race+Car+Photos&tbm=isch

All three of these race cars ran American V-8 engines. All were successful at the end of the "Front-Mid Engine" race car era. Shortly after this the rear-mid engine cars took over (aka Can-Am series).

Best regards, Tom

[Tom Veale]

How about Testa Rosa Bellezza? (pretty red head)

[Vman7]

Hi David, A VW/Audi W-12 Engine will fit in these chassis. Make very nice sounds and have plenty of power and torque. However, most were built to marry to AWD automatic drive trains. The biggest problem with the VW/Audi W12 is lack of availability.

I'd been thinking about attempting to adapt a late '50s or early '60s sports racer body to the FFR Hot Rod frame, too. Something like the Scarab or the Devin Chevy bodys. The Cheetah might be fun, but don't know how the wheelbase might match up to either the Cobra frame or the FFR Hot Rod frame. https://www.google.com/search?q=Cheetah+car+photos&espv=2&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=YuaZU7GDO9OsyAS3p4LwCg&ved=0CDAQ7Ak&biw=1366&bih=643#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=sI2ZEwEj3TX0iM%253A%3B1YrUS5bOrUM7TM%3Bhttp% 253A%252F%252Fimage.kitcarmag.com%252Ff%252F137627 80%252F0707kc_10_z%252Bcheetah_sports_car%252B.jpg %3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.kitcarmag.com%252Ffeatur edvehicles%252F0707kc_cheetah_sports_car%252Fphoto _09.html%3B640%3B480

Best regards, Tom

Tom, V12 would be kind of nice, but OUCH when it comes to price.
I think it was you who mentioned that before about the Scarab or Devin body, maybe in the 33 forum. I like the Scarab a lot.

If I remember right I think the Cheetah has a 90" wheelbase.


How about Testa Rosa Bellezza? (pretty red head)

hmm......... another name to think about.

I did some more research on Ferrari names and found out that one name in particular that has been used not only for Ferrari but other brands as well is Barchetta (Italian for small/little boat, given to th Ferrari 166 MM in 1948) if you do a search on google for "Barchetta" the Wikipedia pages comes up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barchetta

[carbon fiber]

Red Barchetta is one of my favorite RUSH songs. It's about a guy digging his uncles Ferrari out of a barn, going out and giving it hell. ( what the car was meant for) Look it up and give it a listen, I think you'd dig it. "I strip away the old debris - that hides shining car - A brilliant red barchetta - from a better vanished time - we'll fire up the willing engine - responding with a roar - tires spitting gravel - I commit my weekly crime"

[Vman7]

Red Barchetta is one of my favorite RUSH songs. It's about a guy digging his uncles Ferrari out of a barn, going out and giving it hell. ( what the car was meant for) Look it up and give it a listen, I think you'd dig it. "I strip away the old debris - that hides shining car - A brilliant red barchetta - from a better vanished time - we'll fire up the willing engine - responding with a roar - tires spitting gravel - I commit my weekly crime"

lol......I forgot all about that song. It's off Rush's 1981 Album Moving Pictures, I haven't heard it in years, boy does that bring back some memories. Thanks for that!:)

Now I am showing my age......lol

David

[carbon fiber]

lol......I forgot all about that song. It's off Rush's 1981 Album Moving Pictures, I haven't heard it in years, boy does that bring back some memories. Thanks for that!:)

Now I am showing my age......lol

David It's a timeless classic, just like us! Every time I hear that song the hair on the back of my neck stands up, it conveys the feeling of a wild ride so well. Back to the subject, what about an older jaguar v12 from an xjs?

[Vman7]

It's a timeless classic, just like us! Every time I hear that song the hair on the back of my neck stands up, it conveys the feeling of a wild ride so well.

Interesting that you said that, I never paid much attention to that song, it was mostly Tom Sawyer or Limelight, I guess because of the air play.

I saw RUSH in concert at Cobo Hall in Detroit when I use to live in Troy, MI. It was either '77 or '78, UFO was the warm up band. At that time Rush was considered the loudest band, and you can see why when you see the stage with the hugh wall of amps.

David

[carbon fiber]

I've seen them twice, Roll the bones and Counterparts. Both were in the 90's but they played tons of old songs all the way back to 2112. One of the best live bands you'll ever see. (you already know that) Watching Geddy Lee play bass with one hand, play keyboards with the other hand, and sing at the same time, unreal.

[Vman7]

Not so sure on the V12 idea, I know the Euro V12s mostly the Italian ones sound awesome. I am just thinking more on the pratical side, and availiability of parts etc.

[carbon fiber]

Italian = $

[Vman7]

I've seen them twice, Roll the bones and Counterparts. Both were in the 90's but they played tons of old songs all the way back to 2112. One of the best live bands you'll ever see. (you already know that) Watching Geddy Lee play bass with one hand, play keyboards with the other hand, and sing at the same time, unreal.

They are amazing, considering only 3 in the band, sounds more then that if you didn't know better.

I have always found it interesting that Rush does song about revolting against Totalitarianism or an Dystopia society, and the way the world is going now, it's like Rush saw it coming, maybe even trying to warn us in away.

David

[Vman7]

lol.....just $ (thinking of the price range on restaurant guides online, ie: $ - $$$$)

[carbon fiber]

They are amazing, considering only 3 in the band, sounds more then that if you didn't know better.

I have always found it interesting that Rush does song about revolting against Totalitarianism or an Dystopia society, and the way the world is going now, it's like Rush saw it coming, maybe even trying to warn us in away.

David They are some seriously intelligent dudes, very well educated, and they ROCK too!

[Vman7]

I added an Album, which I'll put a link in Post #1 for.

Album: Wareham Special Design Project (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=894)

Here is what is done so far, which I talked about in the Padanaram / Wareham Design Project (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?17076-Padanaram-Wareham-Design-Project) thread.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39703&d=1426820338

Update: Still working on the side view mostly. There is still a lot of work to be done, shading reflections, details etc. Working on the front and side at the same time.

The rear tail light will be frenched in. Not sure which ones to go with just yet, either the orig or the 1950 Pontiac ones. The front turn signal light will also be frenched in.

The rear area (which you can't see from this view) has been reshaped. The 2 "dimple" areas between the tail light area and the trunk have been smoothed out to create a smooth transition from side to side on the rear view, also the rear from top to bottom on the side view has been more made more horz.

Still working with different ideas for the side pipe heat shield and some other windscreen options.

In the meantime here is a Mock-up of the Side View

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39702&d=1426820338

Right now I am working on laying out everything on the front.

more to come....:)

David

[chopthebass]

Just needs a slightly angled back roll bar to look even cooler! Just my opinion. Looks great.

[sbak]

I have to agree with chopthebass.. if the roll bar were angled back a bit.. mmm might be a little better .. however excellent the way the windows sweep around the side .. like an extension of the windshield.. I like it. .I like it a lot!

[MPTech]

That looks very cool so far, and I agree with the angled rollbar.

2 comments:
1. I like the before and after picture you posted of the windshield / cowl / hood area. Can you do a similar comparison for the full side shot? Helps to see what's been enhanced.
2. Please "fix" the rear fender front area. This is an inherent FFR design issue, but it really stands out when you are just looking at a full side view.

Cool exercise. I'd enjoy seeing someone take it to reality. (if nothing else, I'm sure you've sparked some creative mods for some builders here!)

[Vman7]

Thanks for the comments :)

Tilting the rollbar back some is on my "to do list", nice to know that some noticed that.

I plan on doing a before and after comparisons of the side, front and rear views, either as I go along and or once finished.

The rear fender area just in front of the tire is going to stay the same as it is for right now. Not sure what to do about it just yet, I have a few ideas in mind. I know that a lot of people have brought that up, being that it makes the rear tire look off center. I know Dave Smith and FFR are trying to keep to true as possible, so I understand that.

David

[Vman7]

Working on the front. There is still a lot of shading, shadows, reflections, details etc. to be done, but for now here is a Mock-up.

Wareham Special Front Mock-up

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39976&d=1427520550
Larger view (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=39976&d=1427520550)

[Vman7]

Update: Since I am getting some suggestions about the side look on the other web site, which brings me back to the orig. idea I had in mind. I have decided, at least for right now. To give the fenders a shave.....lol from what I can tell from scaling out the front and rear views. It looks like the front fender flares are about 1.75" to 2". So I am thinking about taking out anywhere from 1" to 1.5", which of course I would have to take out of the rear fender and resphape the foward section to give it more of a rounded look close to the Ferrari 375/500. There will be a slight front flare but not much, mostly due to if I take the whole fender flare, then the tires will get real narrow, I would like to keep an option for at least somewhat of a wider tires for front and rear. I was thinking somewhere between 255 to 275 rear/ 205 to 225 front.

or should I get rid of the flares totally? and not worry about how wide of tires you can get on it. I think it would bring it more into that '50s look. For me I don't have a problem with the narrower tires.

I thinking about taking a break for a few weeks on this and work on some '33 stuff, since I know some ppl might be waiting for some new stuff there, and besides the '33 is my favorite :) to work on anyways. So I will probably be going back and forth.

David