Power vs manual

[rj35pj]

I'm sure this has come up before, I'm close to being able to order the coupe kit and I see it comes with a manual rack. Having built a couple of streetrods with manual racks, my one regret was not putting in power steering, does the type 65 need power steering? I'm all for keeping my costs low, but I don't want to sacrifice convenience and comfort if I don't need to. I have not seen an upgrade to power steering offered on the coupe order form, is it possible to order in the kit is my second question.
Thank you.

[LuckyWinner]

RJ, I can see this is your first post, let me just tell you....do what you want!!! This is one of the most explosive subjects on this forum. If you go to the Roadster Forum here and go back a page or two you will see the thread that I started. I thought it was going to start a war. Lots of guys say, no you dont need it....keep it bone stock, others will tell you, less than $300 you can have it and it helps alot. My point is, you just need to do what you want, its your car. Anyways the can of worms has been opened again. lol

[rj35pj]

I didn't mean to open a can of worms and I do intend to build the coupe "my way". I have seen many fine pictures of type 65s on this and the other forum. I know mine won't be blue, it will be Ford powered although my only experience to this point has been with chevys. I would just like to hear from those who have built the coupe do they have much trouble parking with manual steering. I had to wrestle my '35 Plymouth coupe into parking spaces with a manual MustangII rack and pinion. I would like to keep the car simple (I'm not a master mechanic) and naturally manual steering is cheeper. I'm just trying to put this car together mentally as I wait for the physical one to appear. :)

[riptide motorsport]

I have the power and highly reccomend it, its the stock rack with the stock hoses massaged slightly by hand and the stock pump on the stock bracket,,,,,,,,as affordable as it comes..............off a 93' , 5.0..................hth ............Steven

[LuckyWinner]

check out the thread "Manual-Steering" on the Roadster forum. And Congrats on joining the club.

[rj35pj]

I have the power and highly reccomend it, its the stock rack with the stock hoses massaged slightly by hand and the stock pump on the stock bracket,,,,,,,,as affordable as it comes..............off a 93' , 5.0..................hth ............Steven
Thank you Steven for the info and a reference for parts.

[rj35pj]

check out the thread "Manual-Steering" on the Roadster forum. And Congrats on joining the club.
I will check out the other thread and as far as joining the club I am still just a wanna be, but I think the next time FFR has a sale I'll be joining the club.

[John Dol]

My build involves some donor parts and if you go that way (stripping a donor) you have all the parts you need. You do need to make some frame mods to make it work though.
I think Whitby's sells a complete kit also.

John

[turbonut48]

My Coupe has the 17 inch wheels with manual. Its truly an exercise when you drive at low speeds.
I know the routine of needing to slightly move it when turning the wheels.
The first time I drove it my shoulders were a little stiff the next day. Old age? Out of shape?
Dont know. But this is the way it was built and love it !!
Good luck with your decision. Build it your way.

The Nut

[MPTech]

I'm a roadster guy, but I was planning since the beginning to go manual and even bought the Flaming River rack before purchasing the kit (it doesn't come with the Roadster Base kit). But after driving a couple, I decided t go power. Yes, at speeds it's not bad. But on a parking lot, it's a bear! I also talked to a friend that is building his third Roadster and this one will be power and he suggested it too.

[rj35pj]

Thank you for all the replies. Once I get my kit it will be power. I was pretty sure that was what I wanted to do and the replies here have confirmed that.

[jkrueger]

For an opinion the other way. I finished my roadster last year and it has power steering from a 89 GT, and it is so scary touchy at highway speeds that I won't let anyone drive it till I switch it to a manual rack. My power rack is slightly less than 2.5 turns lock to lock, and I have done the cut spring mod in the pump to lower the pressure and it helped but still to touchy. I know the coupe is a different car, but wanted to give you my perspective.

JC

[steamerbill]

I just got back from the first drive of the year,100 miles, came in for lunch and a beer and came upon this thread. I've got just under 5000 miles on Slither running on 17" wheels and tires. The steering at speed is as quick and easy as I would ever want. The coupe is set up with the rack mounts from Breeze and the SAI kit from Whitby, It still gets twitchy at high speeds on rough roads. Still light enough at slower speeds and in parking lots for my girl friend to drive with no issues. I personally see no need for power steering on the coupe or any performance car so light.
Bill

[Garry Bopp]

My coupe also has the offset solid rack mounts from Breeze and the SAI kit from Whitby's. Made a huge difference in steering feel and effort. I've got 17" wheels/tires, Kumho Ecsta XS. Steering at anything but parking speeds is quite light.

Garry

[Russ Thompson]

I have a roadster with the FR rack and the coupe with the power steering, the PS is just nice, needed, no but I like it.

I know several guys like David Borden that ran tons of autocross races and they all went back to the PS!

[STLMARSHALL]

I say go power steering and use a heidts valve for fine tuning.

Here is an example of where it helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHusAEtyVek


Without PS that probably would have been a spin!

[xlr8or]

If I was going to spend a lot of time autocrossing I would seriously consider power steering but I really don't see a need for it otherwise.

[Rodster]

Question:
If I went with the standard steering rack in the complete Coupe kit - and build it - can the steering rack be removed and replaced with a power unit later?

[DARKPT]

Yes, you can.

[rj35pj]

Question:
If I went with the standard steering rack in the complete Coupe kit - and build it - can the steering rack be removed and replaced with a power unit later?
Sure, a new rack, power steering pump, brackets, and hoses. I found that the brackets and pulleys got much more expensive when trying to run AC and power steering. Either AC or PS wasn't too expensive but to have both it really increased the cost.

[FFRSpec72]

So not sure what spindles you have but the caster that you may want to run also might also be a factor. I was running manual steering for quite a while, then I went with the FFR spindles and increased my caster to about 8.5 and no way could I handle that on the track, so had to move to power, while the cost was minimum (hoses were the most expensive part, more than the re manufactured rack) the learning was the hardest for me, I hated the power at first as I was running slower laps than before, but now I have better part of a season on the power rack I really like it, it helps me recover quicker when I make a mistake

[tirod]

It's an individual decision. As pointed out, the effort of low speed parking isn't easy with manual, and adding a lot of caster to the front alignment doesn't help. But, that's what I did with a '66 Mustang over 18 years. Power was for automatics - a secretary's car is exactly what they called the GT350s equipped that way. :)

It might really depend on the overall emphasis. If it's a cruiser, show, or in town car, power is nice. On the other hand, a strip, track, or long road trip kind of car doesn't need it - at speed, power isn't necessary, just nice. It will turn quickly enough.

One thing to consider is that the originals didn't have it. Ever. On the other hand, they didn't have the huge tires we use today, either. It's a subject of a lot of discussion. Compare the situation with the Miata crowd - about the same size and weight car (youthful responses included, be aware,): http://www.miataturbo.net/race-prep-75/power-steering-no-power-steering-55715/

Once you get past the fog of testosterone, what comes up is that on long distance endurance racing, NASCAR, etc., power steering is used, universally. It's the short track racers who might not. That's still different than a long vacation, hours at 70mph on main highways aren't that taxing. If I were driving Rte 76 into Branson on a daily basis, I could easily see having it.

[riptide motorsport]

rj35pj.................."Sure, a new rack, power steering pump, brackets, and hoses. I found that the brackets and pulleys got much more expensive when trying to run AC and power steering. Either AC or PS wasn't too expensive but to have both it really increased the cost"

I used a hybrid of Richard Obens mount and the stock ps mount with surgury and a spacer or 2...............very affordable......HTH Steven

[tirod]

I would suggest that factory pulleys and brackets are dirt cheap - plenty of donors are out there, and quite a bit of repurposing is done in other automotive areas. What gets expensive is thinking that CNC billet pulleys are required - at that point it's not function, it's looking for an excuse to spend the money. . .

[skullandbones]

I installed the power donor rack and had expectations of depowering it but after a lot of thought and discussion on this forum went with the power. I got a Forte PS bracket that was very nice (mounts low) and spent about $80 on the hoses. The thing that finally swayed me was the ability to run extra castor with the power unit in order to get a little more user friendly steering (tends to self center instead of wandering). It doesn't take away much from the simplicity of the engine bay and front of the engine, either. Good luck, WEK.

[Jeff Kleiner]

If it's a cruiser, show, or in town car, power is nice. On the other hand, a strip, track, or long road trip kind of car doesn't need it.

I have to disagree with the statement above and say that a track car DOES need it, moreso than a cruiser. Of course that's just my humble opinion based on real world experience, lots of track miles and hundreds of autocross runs rather than hypothesis...

Jeff

[FFRSpec72]

I have to disagree with the statement above and say that a track car DOES need it, moreso than a cruiser. Of course that's just my humble opinion based on real world experience, lots of track miles and hundreds of autocross runs rather than hypothesis...

Jeff

Agree, with all the caster I have now I need it as I would nver be able to get the wheel back around in time w/o it

[tirod]

I don't want to dispute what an experienced autocrosser has to say about steering effort - but I will disagree that it falls under a "track" use. Not every track is a constant effort at hard sharp turns, or short chutes to another.

The originals didn't have power - or the wide tires, or the extreme caster we see today. Plenty of posters point out their perception of effort in their car leaves them satisfied with no power steering. In the day, I had little trouble with it in a '66 Mustang. Admittedly, parallel parking in front of the house wasn't effortless, but I took it as part of the overall result of what I chose.

Frankly, with some resourcefulness and a better understanding of what it really takes for a road car vs track car, the biggest problem really seems to be guys building show cars with race car alignment and wide rubber. It's a combination of all the worst case features from the perspective of low effort steering. So, of course, they prefer power steering. It begs the question, tho - why high angle caster on a street car that almost never sees 85mph? As for the rubber, same thing - looks were preferred to the detriment of steering at low speeds.

If choices are made that stack against low steering effort, that's entirely up the the builder, he choose to do it that way. It does not mean it's required - plenty of others don't. If someone comes to the conclusion that it is or is not necessary to have power steering after the car has been used for a while, then that means they now understand what they really chose to do and have experienced the reality of it.

Autocross? You bet, power steering would help. LeMans? Maybe - but lots of competitors there don't, either. It very much depends on what other factors influence the final level of effort. Discussions like this aren't going to make it a black and white choice, tho, because builders will continually tilt the degree of effort with a lot of other engineering - and their personal perception of what is or isn't an uncomfortable level of effort.

[skullandbones]

You guys are right in that there is no black and white answer. However, there are a lot of situations that make PS more than just "nice" or "convenient". If you have a car that responds quickly and precisely, it can keep you from having a serious accident on the highways or in your neighborhood (most accidents occur within 25 mile radius of your house). There was a discussion (thread) about this some time ago, where Jeff talked about modulation with a variable valve which gives you as little or as much PS as you need. Just as there are conditions on a track or autocross that require different levels of control, the highway driving also can have those similar conditions. Mountain driving or straight, flat freeway cruising are very different. I will probably not need the degree of modulation for an autocross car but I will fiddle with the tensioner to modulate the amount of PS I need. That way I can run some castor without any negative effect. I guess there are those who just build the car for looks (wide tires) and muscle it around in parking and tight situations but remember, it is a race car so it would be pretty embarrassing not to be able to handle it like a race car. So in my case, there is PS, quick release for small diameter or standard steering, and any other trick I can come up with to make it quick and accurate. Thanks, WEK.

[turbonut48]

Do the PS . And go with AC too. The coupe really doesnt have much air flow in the foot boxes.

[70gtvert]

Wow, this is so subjective. I have a manual rack in mine, not a converted power one but a purpose built manual rack. Go carting in it is no problem, a lot of weight has been shifted off the front. But I drove a International cab over tractor when I leased out to North American Van Lines back in the mid 80's and it did not have power steering either. The trick is to make sure you are rolling, if only slightly, while your turning the wheel. Doing so from a dead stop requires a lot more effort. That being said, what works for me may not work for you. Luck, John.

[Timb]

I am using all stock parts off an 02 donor and really like the feel go carting so far. It has a lot more effort and feedback than my 70 barracuda had ;)