Bucket List Cobra shopping

[k98dave]

Doing some homework before I commit to building a Cobra which has been my long time favorite and now that I'm retired my "bucket list" project so I guess I had better get going!

I have the FFR catalog info and would like to find out if there are any owners here in the Dallas/Fort Worth area that I can meet and discuss the build with.
I have visited the Lone Star shop as its only about a 30 min drive which is a + and they have added an extra 4" to the wheelbase giving extra room in the foot box which I like, but I don't think the rest of the kit measures up to FFR.

I have also received some info on Hurricane's kit, which is very complete and from what I have read seems to be very good. The primary thing I like about Hurricane is the street version with under car exhaust full bumpers etc.

Not wanting to get too far ahead of myself but my desire would be for carb'd small block car, straight axle, under car exhaust and 4 wheel disc power brakes

I have been looking at various build threads and info on ClubCobra etc. Lots of reading to do but I would like to get to see some cars in person.


Any thoughts and suggestions appreciated.

Thanks
Dave

[68GT500MAN]

Welcome to the forum Dave. I am sure several Texas owners will come along to help you out with a build discussion. Since this is an FFR supported forum, I am prejudiced to this manufacturer. There have been several built with under car exhaust over the years.
Doug

[skullandbones]

You could choose one of many versions of the Co*** and be happy given your requirements. One thing I would not do if I were you is to make a decision based on something like "this one can have under body exhaust. I have a local muffler shop close to my house that could put an OEM looking under the car exhaust in a heart beat. They have mandrel benders and know how to use them. I've taken hot rods with just the headers and ended up with a very nice exhaust system.

It would be better to concentrate on the quality of the chassis and body. If authenticity is important that could greatly affect your choice. Personally, I don't like the fiberglass inserts that some companies use. I do like the aluminum sub panels that FFR does. Sticker shock could drive you to one or the other choices but if not a Kirkham is a good choice. I think talking with a builder will help if they give you the full scoop. However, builders will filter the story as we humans do especially if it has been a long time since they built it. I've only been a few years into it and go back to look at something I did (I'm the only one who touched it! so it had to be me!) and say damn, did you do that. There are many great builds on the two forums (ffcars and FFR). You should read thru some of those. You really have a difficult but fun problem of making up your mind.

Good luck,

WEK.

[edwardb]

Welcome to the forum. First, as was stated already, recognize this is a Factory Five sponsored forum. So many (myself included) have mainly only been exposed to Factory Five products in detail. Don't expect to get a lot of details about other brands. I don't have a particular opinion about other brands other than (1) Some of those options are much more expensive than what I've chosen to do, and I probably wouldn't have taken the plunge at those prices. (2) Factory Five is far and away the largest with an increasing reputation for quality products. The "bones" are solid and well proven. The newest Mk4 has years of improvements incorporated. You control the final quality of the fit and finish. It's a good choice IMO.

However, Factory Five may not be the best option if you don't like to build. Factory Five aggressively markets the ease of building. For a pure stock kit that is probably true to an extent. But most don't build pure stock kits, plus there is just a huge variation of possible parts to use and some require some creative problem solving by the builder. Expect it, and you will be OK. Think Factory Five should have a snap together solution for any part you choose to use and you might be disappointed. By all means, find as many examples as you can to check out. Most owners are happy to share and even give rides (I've given a bunch) just don't expect anyone to let you drive it. Just not going to happen. Realize that for Factory Five especially you will see a huge variation in the quality of the builds. Some are simply incredible. Some not so much. But you as the owner/builder determine that. I also agree completely about not choosing based on under car exhaust. It's been done numerous times with Factory Five. Not sure what your motivation is, because IMO the exposed side pipes are one of the really cool features, and nearly always pointed out by observers. But I know some have concerns about noise levels, getting burned, etc. These have ways to address, but it's your build, so make it your way.

Having said the above, another option that many consider is buying an already built car. If you're willing to be flexible about colors, drivetrains, etc. and just look for good value there are usually some to choose from. Typically for less that what it would cost to reproduce. If you're more into the owning and driving, then this is something to consider. If you're into the building (like I am) then this maybe isn't an option you want to consider. Both of my builds though have been purchased from the original owners as partially built. My first was farther along than the second, which was only a couple months out of the factory. This is another option. Again, choices if you keep your eyes open. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[k98dave]

Thanks for the inputs;

I'm hoping to get in touch with some local owners to have a better look at the cars and discuss builds. I'm a long time Mustang guy and have built several FOX cars, 4 to 8 swaps (done correctly) and just finished restoration & motor/turbo rebuild on my 84 SVO. I also have a survivor 93 Cobra that I did light restoration on. Both of these would have to go to make room for a Cobra if and when I pull the trigger on this project.

I have no doubt on the quality of FFR kits, nor do I expect them to go together as easily as advertised, experience shows us that seldom happens with most things. The only question I have is the leg room that can be obtained. The Lone Star shop display car I drove in had plenty with the extra wheelbase.
I don't think their chassis is equal to FFR's however from what I have seen in person.

I like to drive my cars a lot but mainly in the cruse mode so stock suspension and brakes with a mild small block should be just fine. I would go for PB and perhaps PS also. I happen to prefer the look of under car exhaust and I'm sure its quieter, but that's not something that would make me choose one maker over another.

In the meantime I have lots of threads to read here on all the fun you guys have been having.


Dave

[UpstateCobraGuy]

Dave,

Since you asked, IMHO stretched wheel base Cobr@s just look funky. A 90" FFR can be built to fit very large guys with just a few modification. Using the Wilwood pedal box will make a huge difference. I'm 6' 245 and I fit great using stock Mark IV seats. You can pick up a huge amount of room switching to Kirkey Racing seats. Really not that hard just build the car to fit you!

Check this thread out, 6'6" and he fits....

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/194123-tall-drivers-pictures-proof-66-can-done.html

Another way to add more room to your Roadster...

http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/3497-driverside-door-mod-update-w-picts-9-4-a.html

HIH,

Pat

[k98dave]

Yes I heard that different seats can make a big difference. Looks like he used stock FOX pedal box but I think I would go with the Wilwood setup. Don't think I would need the door mod but I can see how that would give big guys more shoulder room.
I didn't notice the extra 4" looking at the car, guess if you parked next to another one it would be easy to notice.

[Blue MK3]

Well, here goes ANOTHER opinion, so bear with me (or ignore). I'm certainly no expert on these cars, so I can't offer a lot of technical info. Based on the various brands I've seen in person, I offer the following comments:

FFR - Probably 75-80% of all these cars came from FFR. They have tweaked and upgraded through four iterations and probably have it right now. Because of the number of FFR cars out there (8,000+), there is a wide selection of aftermarket parts from numerous vendors that are specific to the FFR. The frame is very stiff and combined with the myriad aluminum panels that are cemented and riveted between the members of the frame, the entire car is extremely strong and stiff. Fit and finish can be as bad or good as you make them. The biggest drawback with the FFR is the amount of body work required. The mold release lines can be problematic to finish.

Hurricane - I have a friend who is finishing up his car. I'm less than impressed with the frame and the car uses several fiberglass panels and pans rather than aluminum. So I don't think the stiffness is as good as with a FFR. However, the bodies (as delivered) seem to require less work to get them ready for painting, which can result in lower cost and time. Price-wise, I think they're about the same as FFR

ERA - Never saw one but they are American made kits.

Backdraft - This is essentially a factory built finished car minus the engine and transmission. They're made in South Africa and delivered to the US point of entry where your choice of engine and transmission are installed. Fit and finish are excellent throughout. The car is two or four (can't remember which) inches longer than Hurricanes and FFRs, giving additional room. Also, the width of the foot box is significantly wider than the previous two cars. That's a big advantage for some people. But they are more expensive than the American cars.

Superformance - Like the Backdraft, a factory built car from South Africa minus the engine and transmission. You pick and they install. Fit and finish throughout is excellent, and like the Backdraft, they are more expensive. These cars have the traditional 90" wheelbase and the shape of the body (especially the rear end) is more like the original Shelby cars. I believe they are built under license from Shelby and as such, are designated as continuation cars.

And one I've never seen (but drool about) is Kirkham. These are completed cars built in Poland for an American company (based in Salt Lake City, I think), The bodies are hand fabricated of aluminum and can be satin finish or polished to a gloss (your choice). They are typically not painted. As with the others, your choice of driveline components. And the most expensive of all these cars. ~$80k for the car w/o a driveline. And the cost of the polished body is $15k above the brushed finish.

There are other companies out there, but I'm not at all familiar with them and can't comment. You have several options as to how you proceed. If you want to build your own car, any of the kits will suffice and you can customize them to your liking. If you want a finished car to drive away in, then the "foreign" cars are best. And last, you could buy a completed kit car built by someone else. That's what I did. There are a lot of FFR cars for sale, usually at a price much lower than you can purchase and build your own.

I've rambled on long enough. Time for me to shut up.

[UpstateCobraGuy]

Yes I heard that different seats can make a big difference. Looks like he used stock FOX pedal box but I think I would go with the Wilwood setup. Don't think I would need the door mod but I can see how that would give big guys more shoulder room.
I didn't notice the extra 4" looking at the car, guess if you parked next to another one it would be easy to notice.

In time you will...

[edwardb]

Well, here goes ANOTHER opinion, so bear with me (or ignore). I'm certainly no expert on these cars, so I can't offer a lot of technical info. Based on the various brands I've seen in person, I offer the following comments:

FFR - Probably 75-80% of all these cars came from FFR. They have tweaked and upgraded through four iterations and probably have it right now. Because of the number of FFR cars out there (8,000+), there is a wide selection of aftermarket parts from numerous vendors that are specific to the FFR. The frame is very stiff and combined with the myriad aluminum panels that are cemented and riveted between the members of the frame, the entire car is extremely strong and stiff. Fit and finish can be as bad or good as you make them. The biggest drawback with the FFR is the amount of body work required. The mold release lines can be problematic to finish.

Hurricane - I have a friend who is finishing up his car. I'm less than impressed with the frame and the car uses several fiberglass panels and pans rather than aluminum. So I don't think the stiffness is as good as with a FFR. However, the bodies (as delivered) seem to require less work to get them ready for painting, which can result in lower cost and time. Price-wise, I think they're about the same as FFR

ERA - Never saw one but they are American made kits.

Backdraft - This is essentially a factory built finished car minus the engine and transmission. They're made in South Africa and delivered to the US point of entry where your choice of engine and transmission are installed. Fit and finish are excellent throughout. The car is two or four (can't remember which) inches longer than Hurricanes and FFRs, giving additional room. Also, the width of the foot box is significantly wider than the previous two cars. That's a big advantage for some people. But they are more expensive than the American cars.

Superformance - Like the Backdraft, a factory built car from South Africa minus the engine and transmission. You pick and they install. Fit and finish throughout is excellent, and like the Backdraft, they are more expensive. These cars have the traditional 90" wheelbase and the shape of the body (especially the rear end) is more like the original Shelby cars. I believe they are built under license from Shelby and as such, are designated as continuation cars.

And one I've never seen (but drool about) is Kirkham. These are completed cars built in Poland for an American company (based in Salt Lake City, I think), The bodies are hand fabricated of aluminum and can be satin finish or polished to a gloss (your choice). They are typically not painted. As with the others, your choice of driveline components. And the most expensive of all these cars. ~$80k for the car w/o a driveline. And the cost of the polished body is $15k above the brushed finish.

There are other companies out there, but I'm not at all familiar with them and can't comment. You have several options as to how you proceed. If you want to build your own car, any of the kits will suffice and you can customize them to your liking. If you want a finished car to drive away in, then the "foreign" cars are best. And last, you could buy a completed kit car built by someone else. That's what I did. There are a lot of FFR cars for sale, usually at a price much lower than you can purchase and build your own.

I've rambled on long enough. Time for me to shut up.

For the record, Kirkham's are more than the price you quoted. Superperformance as well. Couple of guys in our club have ERA's. I'm impressed. Look like quality builds and pretty authentic appearance. I don't know anything about their cost however. Regarding FFR bodies, the mold parting lines used to be a pretty big issue, although I'm not sure many would agree that was the most problematic part. The newest Mk4 bodies (so far) are much improved in this area and overall. I've built a Mk3 and now a Mk4, and there's a significant improvement in the quality. Basically just knock off the flash and start overall body work. There is no question though that body work can be a major expense of these builds, and should not be overlooked during the budget process if you're going to have it professionally done.

[CraigS]

Having helped w/ Bill3422's build I can tell you the standard FFR complete kit (IRS) is a well done car that does go together pretty easily. All the odd stuff we ran into was due to using hydroboost, a hydraulic clutch system, and mass flo efi. OTOH, they took more work than a carb, a clutch cable, and manual brakes but, once done, they worked out quite well. I have driven the car for a 10 mile or so test and was very impressed w/ the FFR Koni shock spring setup. They chose the rates perfectly.

[2bking]

K98Dave, I'm located in the Garland area and about half way done with my FFR kit if you want to see work in progress.

[OCCPete]

Dave,

Since you asked, IMHO stretched wheel base Cobr@s just look funky.

OK, quiz time. look quickly at the following and tell which ones are the "funky" extended wheelbase cars. No cheating by looking at the picture properties!

1)
http://www.cobracountry.com/cobra4salefolder/SPO3094-blue-cropper-BIG.jpg

2)
http://www.cobracountry.com/cobra4salefolder/wiedaseck-ERA/wieda-bside-1a-640x372.jpg

3)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y48/pballent/Cobra%20Pictures/P8040576_zpsbcb1abe2.jpg (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/pballent/media/Cobra%20Pictures/P8040576_zpsbcb1abe2.jpg.html)

4)
http://www.cobracountry.com/cobra4salefolder/gauvin-backdraft/gauvin-bside-5a-640x334.jpg

5)
http://cobracountry.com/cobra4salefolder/ron-LS427/ron-bside-6a-640x373.jpg


http://www.cobracountry.com/cobra4salefolder/cobra-feldman-wi.jpg

[skullandbones]

I love quizzes! I think it's 2, 3, and 4 that are stretched. The placement of the side louvers is different like closer to the wheel well. I see what you mean. It's subtle but there is something funky about it. After you have looked at so many with the correct wheel base, anything different looks funny. I could be wrong though. Thanks for the fun quiz.

WEK.

[Dan Babb]

Dave...regarding wanting more footbox space, are you a big guy with big feet?

I currently own Brian's car (the tall guy thread linked above). He did use the mustang pedal box, but widened the footbox on the engine side by about 1 1/2 inches to get more space for his feet. He also raised the steering wheel a bit (washers under the pillow block...easy modification). He also lowered the floor under the pedals to gain room there. There are some easy things you can do to get a bit of extra space...but they'd need to be done during the build. Probably not something you can do on a finished car.


I'm around 5'10" and don't really need the extra space, but it is nice to have.

[dallas_]

Dave,
I'm in Dallas, would love to show you our cars and show the differences between a FFR and a Shell Valley (Midstates). One has undercar exhaust too. :)
Thanks,
John

edit: Also, there is a car show this Sunday at the Cooper Clinic on Preston. There should be several Cobra's there.

[edwardb]

3 and 5 have noticeably longer doors, and a longer flat section along the bottom. So those are my votes for the longer wheelbase. Both of those also have pretty strange and not very authentic looking rolls bars. But that's another story. There's another brand that also has longer doors, but it's a cutout extending up under the windshield. Don't know the brand, but really wonky looking IMO. I'm very average size/weight at 5'10" so fit in FFR's pretty easily. I've seen much bigger guys than me fit as well. Unless you're a really big human (an expression of a friend of mine) the more authentic looking FFR can be made to work very well.

[OCCPete]

I love quizzes! I think it's 2, 3, and 4 that are stretched. The placement of the side louvers is different like closer to the wheel well. I see what you mean. It's subtle but there is something funky about it. After you have looked at so many with the correct wheel base, anything different looks funny. I could be wrong though. Thanks for the fun quiz.

WEK.

Well, since no one else wants to play, here's the answer key:
1) 90" wheelbase Superformance
2) 90" wheelbase ERA
3) 96" wheelbase Hunter
4) 92" wheelbase Backdraft
5) 94" wheelbase Lonestar
6) 90" wheelbase FFR

[fireman2343]

First, I'm 6"3 230 and fit in my factory five fine and have plenty of leg room. It is a little difficult with flip flops but with shoes it's a breeze.

On a second note I picked #3 because to me it did seem a little bit longer than the others.

[Blue MK3]

Side views of several brands:
http://www.erareplicas.com/427/profiles/index.htm

[UpstateCobraGuy]

Sorry just got home from work, #3 looks like a stretched limo with sidepipes.:rolleyes: #4 easy to spot the extra loooonnng pipes, and #5 is an easy to spot Backdraft. Bust on FFR Mark 1-3.1 for their perky butts but at least the proportions are within the ballpark.

Pat

[OCCPete]

Sorry just got home from work, #3 looks like a stretched limo with sidepipes.:rolleyes: #4 easy to spot the extra loooonnng pipes, and #5 is an easy to spot Backdraft. Bust on FFR Mark 1-3.1 for their perky butts but at least the proportions are within the ballpark.

Pat

Yeah. I'd be embarrassed to own #3...although it's won first place at every car show I've taken it to. :p BTW, #5 is a Lonestar, not a Backdraft. It is easy to spot by the rollbar.

[cobraguy13]

Dave,

My high school class has now built 5 FFR's over the last 4 years 1 MkIII and four MkIV. I own a MkIV myself and the latest build by the students is sitting in our school shop. I am in Mesquite and I teach at Mesquite HS. Let me know if you would like to come take a look. I have gained a wealth of knowledge form this forum and from our builds.

Regards
Monti (Cobraguy13)

[Blue MK3]

"For the record, Kirkham's are more than the price you quoted. Superperformance as well. Couple of guys in our club have ERA's. I'm impressed. Look like quality builds and pretty authentic appearance. I don't know anything about their cost however. Regarding FFR bodies, the mold parting lines used to be a pretty big issue, although I'm not sure many would agree that was the most problematic part. The newest Mk4 bodies (so far) are much improved in this area and overall. I've built a Mk3 and now a Mk4, and there's a significant improvement in the quality. Basically just knock off the flash and start overall body work. There is no question though that body work can be a major expense of these builds, and should not be overlooked during the budget process if you're going to have it professionally done."

Ed, I agree with your assessment of the price of the Kirkham. $80k gets a car with no engine and lots of other things missing. For instance, a polished bronze body is a $50k upgrade. Add 2.5k for SS dual roll bars, 3.5 for SS sidepipes (installed), 25k for an aluminum 427 engine, 5k to have it installed, and a few other necessities and you're talking some serious change. Like I said, I drool over the idea of owning one, but they are WAY out of my budget range. At a price approaching $200k, one might even get an original Shelby.

The cost of an ERA kit seems to be in line with the FFR and Hurricane cars.

[OCCPete]

$200k isn't nearly enough for an original. A 289 street car just sold at Mecum for $850K.

[Blue MK3]

OK, so I exaggerated a bit. But even so, Kirkham's are expensive.