THE 818 Body install thread

[ehansen007]

Going to start posting all the body builds and tips here. I thought I had already put this one in here but I will make it sticky so we can find it.



The big issue all around is,,,,, the GOOD NEWS is the panels are all seperate so prep, paint and packaging is SUPER easy...the bad news is the panels are all separate so getting the gaps down was a pain for me anyway.....lol....

For me, it was probably a lot of interference from the Cobra and 33 builds...since those are all one piece bodies you can pretty much throw it on there, square it up and you're done.

The 818 is a different animal (at least for me)...some probably will find it easier...

First thing..put DOWN the screws and drill....pick up at LEAST 6-8 long jaw vise grip pliers from HF.

The whole fitment starts in two places..

1. The 5/8" placement back on the frame behind the front wheel..don't trust the transport screw spots
2. The radiator support needs to be bolted such that it is as far forward as possible given the hardware placed in the appropriate spots..some wiggle room here...

After which, you clamp the areas around the door sill... you need to make sure the sides "sails" don't move...

If your rear bumper is pre-drilled, use smaller bolts... if not just clamp the rear bumper to start...and it needs to be clamped tight!

THe change to chassis was done after mine and Wayne's kit to the rear strut towers..I just welded tabs on mine.

The rear bumper rubs on the lower transmission mount bolts (thanks Wayne for the assist)...so you have to grind out 2 "C" cuts - this was the bulk of my issue in the rear.

once I clearanced for the tranny mount the bumper was able to move around a lot better.

I supported the rear bumper with a jack during the process of clamping.

Next you have to adjust the sails even on both sides AND THEN, grab each of the wheel wells and PULL UP and roll the fenders up on to the ledge of the shock tower and CLAMP the crap out of it cause there will be tension in the body.

Remeasure to ensure you are still centered - from the top mount of the rear shock (rear ear) you should be ABOUT 13 to 13 1/8" each side.

Next, back to rear bumper..this is where both Tony and Wayne helped again... you have to ensure that the side body line continues to line up all the way to the bumper...I had installed mine off ... this required me to unclamp the bumper from the sail, push down on the sail and pull up on the bumper corner then re-clamp..had to redo both sides, then go back to the wheel wells and ensure you are still square...

The mid trunk (with the two humps)..need to open the roll bar holes a little to get it to move as far forward to meet up with the door.

The trunk lid does not naturally lay in the opening on my car...not sure why exactly..with the slightest pressure it fits in the hole though...I will say, that after the drive back from FFR when I opened the trailer you could smell the resin still cooking off the panels...I stored all the panels vertically so they wouldn't change shape, but I recall that early in the build some of the panels were laying flat in the sun...so I have it all clamped up right now and it scheduled to be sunny this weekend and will probably just leave out there again.... not a big deal to fix in any case...if I fix it at all.

In my head..after seeing how nice the open house car looked, I took for granted that it still is a kit car and it does take "work" ... the panels will line up, but they only line up ONE way and if you are off anywhere it just make it worse at the end...oz make pounds!

Did I mention you should clamp first !!

just keep at it and go slow.... in my case I got frustrated with the back, moved to the front (spoke with Tony and Wayne) and came back to the back and BAM! in like flynn! Spent almost a whole day on the back...the front 2 hours and that includes bolting in the head light buckets and head lights... really happy with the way the front came together...I need to put the winshield in and the doos to make sure it is for sure all good...but I think I am there... will now refine the rear after I get it out in the sun...

long post, I know, sorry.

Erik Treves

[Frank818]

Ha that's great, I'll keep that one in mind and see how things go when I get there.

[wleehendrick]

Erik, great idea and good start, but:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=28884&d=1399480801

;)








28884

[EricScottZehnder]

I have to agree with wleehendrick. The community can and should come together to produce a bit of a body finishing handbook. Just needs really good example photos and some videos. I have every confidence we can do it as the majority of the build threads have excellent pictures. It's almost as if people with the money to build a $20-25k car also have the money for good cameras.... ;)

[flynntuna]

On the other forum (ffrcars.com) theirs good info in their FAQ section on body prep for painting ect.

[ehansen007]

Yes the idea here was to form a compilation of body install posts with pics. I actually planned on doing a video but with bodywork, you have to do it once then do it again to know what you're doing. And I've just been too busy. :)

[AZPete]

I agree it would be nice to have lots of body mounting info and pics here but I've been studying some build threads before I start my body. For others following, here are three build threads that have some good body stuff but please post others, too.

Honolulu 818S Hana (work/build) Thread
RM1Sepex Build Thread
Metalmaker12 Build Thread

[metalmaker12]

My whole thread has important mounting stuff, I am not going to repost it all.

[RM1SepEx]

My whole thread has important mounting stuff, I am not going to repost it all.

+1


you just have to take the time with a beer or two and read the threads... every time I run into something that's what I do!

[TahoeTim]

Given all the threads on body fitment. I am considering fitting the body first to get it out of the way. Bad idea?

My kit is in Stewart's hands so it's time to do some planning...

[ehansen007]

You're free to do what you want any old..... haha. It's kind of nice to mock the body up at first to get an idea of what goes where but you really can't get it lined up right without wheels and tires on the car which means suspension. I'd go a least that far. But honestly, you're better off building per the manual and getting all internals done first as there are many support pieces that dictate where the panels will fit. You'll take the body panels on and off so many times you'll lose track. It's the nature of the beast. :)

After having gone through it, I wish I would have just been able to put the entire outer body together (side panels fenders, bumpers, etc) sans hood, and bonnet and just lowered it on the car. Those parts really only should fit together one way because of the body lines so if you can imagine that body going together that way and simply hanging them on the pickup points and then aligning the hood, bonnet etc, that might be good.

[wleehendrick]

After having gone through it, I wish I would have just been able to put the entire outer body together (side panels fenders, bumpers, etc) sans hood, and bonnet and just lowered it on the car. Those parts really only should fit together one way because of the body lines so if you can imagine that body going together that way and simply hanging them on the pickup points and then aligning the hood, bonnet etc, that might be good.

That really makes a lot of sense. When I get there, I'll try to fasten these 'perimeter' pieces together, floated on the chassis, and then adjust the hinged/removable panels for gaps.

[AZPete]

Since several of us have had trouble fitting the front engine cover to the roll bars, it's nice to know that the placement of the side sails has impact on many other body parts. The manual says clamp the side sails 5/8" back from the vertical frame member behind the front wheel, but be sure to measure as shown in the manual and not from the edge of the untrimmed piece. Once the side sails are clamped try to fit the front engine cover. If it won't seat because the roll bar support is holding it up, move the side sails back slightly and try again. Consider the 5/8" position a starting point and then adjust until both engine covers fit. A little movement will make all the difference. Clamp, adjust, clamp, adjust, clamp, adjust . . . and rivet the side sails in place only when you've got all other panels in position, even the front fenders.

[RM1SepEx]

Since several of us have had trouble fitting the front engine cover to the roll bars, it's nice to know that the placement of the side sails has impact on many other body parts. The manual says clamp the side sails 5/8" back from the vertical frame member behind the front wheel, but be sure to measure as shown in the manual and not from the edge of the untrimmed piece. Once the side sails are clamped try to fit the front engine cover. If it won't seat because the roll bar support is holding it up, move the side sails back slightly and try again. Consider the 5/8" position a starting point and then adjust until both engine covers fit. A little movement will make all the difference. Clamp, adjust, clamp, adjust, clamp, adjust . . . and rivet the side sails in place only when you've got all other panels in position, even the front fenders.

+1 excellent points, add Wayne's and Tom's door inputs plus don't be surprised if you need to "adjust" body mounting pads to get everything to align and square up

read them all multiple times. Several areas are fixed mating points and sliding stuff around so it all lines up is key. I'm also finding that because I had #17 early body panels they are not the same as my new body panels Serial number 200+ panels.

FFR has made some mold changes to make them easier to fit/align

[D Clary]

None of those measurements are carved in stone. My side panels are flush with the firewall. I had to shorten the upper radiator supports 1/2 inch to rotate the nose back to where the fenders would reach the side pods, Still working on the intersections of hood- fender- door. I think you kind of have to be fearless and forget the no paint.

[RM1SepEx]

Need some help/verification

My side panels are as far back as the latch brackets allow, my front end has come together very nicely.

I'm having problems at the roll bars as many have and I will not chop into the panels to make it fit!

I've made some easy to compare measurements using a square. My square has a side with cm on both edges so I can measure both sides the same way.

Putting my square on the edge of the square roll bar support tube on the right side I get 8 CM and on the left I get 8.5 CM to the body panel seam. This isn't something that is easily changed. The panel is clamped to the side of the frame a few inches away by the aluminum trim at the edge of the door opening.

If I put the end of the square's ruler vs the body panel seam where the support for the trunk hinges are I have 9.2 CM on both sides, my panels are square and I get good seams.

Can someone verify their measurements please...

40767 40768 40769 40770 40771 40772



The only way that I can get straight seams is to twist the "ears" of the engine cover around the roll bars.

Note: snuck in a photo of the tunnel now with the iWire harness, see how cluttered it ISN'T ! only two bundles, the power bundle, battery and alternator cable down one side and a 1 inch dia. bundle down the other! Almost empty tunnel!

[ehansen007]

The two front forward parts of the cover that meet up with the doors do have to be twisted and pushed down to fit. They just don't set flat. I had to relieve my roll bar openings backward as well which makes for a thin edge. It would take a ton of work to get something to just sit down in there perfectly with no manipulation but I think Aloha may have done it. Good luck!

[RM1SepEx]

Eric, the bigger question though is that the space from the frame to the body seam is about .5 cm (approx 1/4") longer on one side than the other. You can't move that seam very much as the body is held up against the frame at the door opening.

Shouldn't the body be symmetrical?

[ehansen007]

In a perfect world, yes. But with Fiberglass and the way the car goes together you have to keep moving things around to get that perfect fit. Sometimes you just won't get it though. It's a matter of compromise. Always is.

[RM1SepEx]

Eric, this was designed on CAD... the two side panels should be exact mirror opposites of each other. Design it, tell computer to flop it over and create a mirror image, DONE. The roll bar also should have been 1/4 " narrower, then no one would be fighting it so much...

[ehansen007]

Okay, then it should be perfect. What do you want me to say? It's still a 1st version chassis and body.

[K3LAG]

Eric, this was designed on CAD... the two side panels should be exact mirror opposites of each other. Design it, tell computer to flop it over and create a mirror image, DONE. The roll bar also should have been 1/4 " narrower, then no one would be fighting it so much...

You would think they would be symmetrical, but they definitely are not. My passenger side hump is nearly 1/2" taller than my driver side one measured at the roll bar. I made a template of one side when I cut for my roll bar clearance so I could match both sides and discovered that the other side was slightly different.

40813 40812

Now that everything is very close to final fit, we realize we probably could have cut less than we did, but some was definitely needed. We are thinking about making little fairings/humps to cover the openings but we aren't quite up to those details yet.

Also my right and left front fenders are shaped just a little different at the top back corner. The drivers side had more of a hook to it but some sandpaper and a little fiberglass touch up took care of that.

I think the bodies are improving over time and they will probably continue to improve so my comments above aren't meant to be complaints, just data to help those that may be struggling with the same things. Fitting the body has definitely been more challenging than we expected but we're learning.

Larry

[gwarden]

And if you add the harness bar you get to trim some more

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Eric, this was designed on CAD... the two side panels should be exact mirror opposites of each other. Design it, tell computer to flop it over and create a mirror image, DONE. The roll bar also should have been 1/4 " narrower, then no one would be fighting it so much...

Did FFR make the molds from clay models or did they CNC the molds from CAD?
Bob

40818

[flynntuna]

Did FFR make the molds from clay models or did they CNC the molds from CAD?
Bob

40818


Good question, from the FFR website it's referenced that the production tooling is CNBC machined.
From the photos of the hardtop development thread it appears that the hardtop mold was made by their master shaper and mold maker. Maybe someone will ask the question at the open house.

FFR-818-front-view
The 818 is the first Factory Five car FULLY developed on the computer. The body shape began in a variety of ways, from CAD files and renderings to scans of existing shapes, and the final 818 body shape came from a full digital file, integrated with the chassis, and output to CNC-milled production tooling.
This fully digitized shape is a true first for Factory Five and delivers tight tolerance parts that don’t need a lot of body work. Instead of a one-piece body, it is configured as a set of smaller panels that only require one-piece molds. This means that all panels are free from mold parting lines commonly seen on other fiberglass bodies, which allows us to provide panels needing little-to-no paint or prep work. Body panels are produced in a UV resistant, gloss-white gelcoat that, with a small amount of buffing, looks just like a painted finish.
[ close ]

[RM1SepEx]

There is absolutely no way that last statement is true...

look at: rear upper front fender corners don't match, front upper side panels at top where it meets the doors don't match, mine are .5 cm different, the front fender tips where they meet the headlights don't match, the engine cover humps are not symmetrical

Can anyone honestly say that they have a body that would look like paint with a couple hrs buffing?

This body is based on some hand massaging by their shaper. Some panels have very good edges many do not because the design has req that are beyond the mfg capabilities

We have to adjust and get it close, no one can see both sides at the same time... however I'm very surprised that it isn't symmetrical

my CF rear street spoiler... is BEAUTIFUL

[AZPete]

Back to Body Install tips:
I suggest that you keep all fasteners for all body panels movable until after you have fit the doors. I left the doors until I had "finished" the rear (bumper, fenders, engine covers) and the front (bumper, fenders, hood) but then to get the doors to fit I had to remove and re-install the front fenders further back (cut & sand) and the rear of the front fenders had to be moved inward so the body creases would line up from fender to door. Then I had to re-fit the hood with a center support so it will be bowed up . . . I think. I'm not done yet with the hood, but you should remember that the doors influence everything else.

Door hinges: Once installed, you can't reach the heads of the hinge-to-body bolts to remove the door. Well, you can if you remove the wheel and the wheel well rear panel. But to make repairs/upgrades easier, either weld the bolt heads in place or get 1-inch carriage bolts and then file the hinge holes square. Either way you want the heads on the outside and the nuts inside where you can reach them in the future.

If you haven't found it already, be sure to study Wayne's tips on installing the doors in the Installation Tips Sticky, General Info.

[Harley818]

I have seen alot of bits and pieces of setting up the body, but not complete. I thought I would try to document what worked for me and hopefully help out those who haven't got there yet.
I have this in my thread, but I thought I would post it here as well .
I have lots more pictures in my thread in the link here. Post #171 - 175


http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?14763-Harley-s-818S&p=196365#post196365

So after a few weeks of setting up and aligning my body, I'm finally happy with the overall result.

Here is how I worked through it from start to finish.
I have to say that I started and stopped multiple times. I helps to put down the tools and re-think, and re-read other peoples threads.
I have to give credit to threads by Aloha, Metalmaker, Wayne, Bob & Cincy, Mechie, RMSepex, and others who have outline their process. Each of them has helped me make the decisions I needed to make to get this right.

Overall, my goal was to align everything without stressing the parts. We product fiberglass products, and the ones that are stressed, always have problems.

My goals were to end up with the wheels centered in the wheelwells, and to have nice even gaps. Like Aloha, I want the car to look as production finished as possible.

Today, I took it apart and started over from the beginning. This was my process:

I set up the rear sails at the 5/8 in back point to start, as suggested in the manual, and bolted on the rear bumper. I used two 1/4-20 bolts on each joint that I had previously drilled. When I am completely done, I will drill two additional holes with tight tolerance bolts to hold it in final position.
I had already trimmed a clearance on the bottom of the bumper for the rear transmission mount bolt that interferes on the bottom with the fiberglass.

I had already put together the front bumper fenders assembly on the floor, aligning the fender bumper joint, and aligning the front of the fender points where they join the bumper at the front of the hood. These were bolted together with 10-24 riv-nuts. I'll add one or two tight tolerance bolts later to lock the position.
I ground down the corners of the steel frame front bumper mounting points. This was suggested on the forum as the sharp corners interfere with the alignment of the front bumper. I hadn't done this before today.
Then I mounted the front bumper/fender assembly roughly in place.
I located spacer blocks under the bumper to get the correct height at 3/4 in. above the frame height. (apparently they are supposed to be higher than the frame).
The side sails were too far back to allow correct connection to the fenders without excessive stress, so I moved them forward, and bolted the front fender to the front of the sail using rivnuts.
I played with the whole assembly alignment moving it front to back until I had the front wheels in the center of the wheelwell.
The position ended up with the front of the side sail 1/4 in back from the front of the frame.
At this position, the distance from the inside of the rollbar square support tube to the front of the top corner of the door sill fiberglass was 7 5/8 in. on both sides.
The front bumper fiberglass height: top of steel support tube is 1 3/4 in below the top of the glass crossmember. The fiberglass is right back against the support steel.
The bumper is located slightly to the right (about 3/8 in.) on the upper steel support pads. I think this is due to the misalignment on the front rad support frame. Mine measured pretty square when i measured it crossways, but the fiberglass is not located symetrically on the pads.
I centered the rear bumper by measuring from the lower frame to the sharp point in the fiberglass behind the rear tire. 21 inches both sides.

I threw the hump trunk on when I was adjusting the side fender widths, and spaced it out with paint stick width.
Then I measured and adjusted the rear side fenders from the upper shock to the outside of the fender at the top of the wheelwell. I clamped it at 13 inches both sides with good gaps. Then I laid the rear trunk lid in and checked the gaps. OK at the front, but no gaps at the back side, and there is a 1/2 in gap at the very back bumper when there are paint stick widths between the two trunk lids. The lid is not curved as much as the bumper, so if I set some weights on it I'm sure the gaps will get better.

I laid the front hood in place, spaced it with paint sticks, and adjusted the width of the fenders.
I measured and adjusted the front side fenders from the upper ball joint to the outside of the fender at the top of the wheelwell. 11 inches both sides.
I installed an aluminum angle to hold them apart at the correct width.

For RMSepex, I measured at the rear crossbar. 9.4 mm on the passenger side from the welded tab to the inside edge of the fiberglass ridge. 9.3 mm on the drivers side.
Clearance at the rollbar both sides is zero. Fiberglass is touching, but doesn't need to be trimmed.

Last measurement was the soft-top distances. 26.25 to the corner of the windshield, but only 32 at the top of the middle to the rollbar. I haven't played around with this much yet, and I might be out of luck getting them both, but I'm pleased with all the other measurements and alignments.

I have nice paint stick gaps everywhere, except the trunk, and wheels are centered in the wheelwells.

[ehansen007]

Thanks for your input.

[Hindsight]

Question about the rear bumper: How far inward to you push it or pull out on it? It kind of floats there, pressing on the underside of the rear-most part of the frame. You could push it in all the way until the curve of the bottom of the bumper began to hit the back of the frame and prevented you from going in any further, or you could pull the bumper out toward the back a bit. There seems to be an inch or so of wiggle room here. Is there a preferred setting? I guess not much would be impacted either way you go.....

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Question about the rear bumper: How far inward to you push it or pull out on it? It kind of floats there, pressing on the underside of the rear-most part of the frame. You could push it in all the way until the curve of the bottom of the bumper began to hit the back of the frame and prevented you from going in any further, or you could pull the bumper out toward the back a bit. There seems to be an inch or so of wiggle room here. Is there a preferred setting? I guess not much would be impacted either way you go.....

Start by clamping the side sails in place.
Then I clamped my rear bumper to the side sails.
Then set both engine covers in place to square things up.
I then attached the rear bumper to the frame where it landed naturally.
Bob

[Hindsight]

Thanks Bob, that's basically what I had planned (with the exception of putting both engine covers in place which is a good idea). I guess there is no set place for it.

[CU9DZ]

Does anyone have any good detailed pictures of where the back of the front fender meets the door, hood and windshield ? My car has a giant gap where the very top front edge of door fits ?
Also how do I post pictures here ?
DK

[Hindsight]

Can't answer your first question because I'm not started on the body just yet, but the easiest way to attach images here is to create an account at Imgur and upload them there. On the right you'll see links you can copy and paste in here and the pictures show up inline. Works very nice and can upload directly from your phone using their app. Fast and less wonky than photobucket.

[CU9DZ]

http://s36.photobucket.com/user/dk_talliance/media/FenderDoorGap31_zpsfmiha6rf.jpg.html
I already have a photobucket account. Think I once copied and attached or whatever the current terminology is but can't find how to do it again.
DK

[Edgeman]

When posting a pic just use, insert image button, 4th from right. Very simple.

[RM1SepEx]

Does anyone have any good detailed pictures of where the back of the front fender meets the door, hood and windshield ? My car has a giant gap where the very top front edge of door fits ?
Also how do I post pictures here ?
DK

at the bottom of the quick reply box to the far right is a box that says go advanced, click it.

Now you get a bigger window scroll down and click manage attachments, a new window opens

Click on add files, then select files. I use an old digital camera set for 1024 x 768 resolution as picture size is limited. Find where the files are and select them, click open click upload files cli9ck insert inline, they then pop into your post. I like to put 2-3 spaces between them so they are easier to id to click and expand the size from the thumbnails. Here are some of my hood, fender door shots

50862 50861 50863

[CU9DZ]

Thanks Dan. I do have an old digital camera and will try that soon. On your first picture above how much material do you have where the very back of the fender turns in 90 degrees ? I currently have between 1 inch and 3/4 inch.
DK

[Hindsight]

Body gaps..... any reason to try making them 1/8 or 3/16" instead of just really tight? I ask because I see a few people gapping panels this way. Example is the hood. The fenders naturally press into the sides of the hood allowing for an even and extremely close fit. This gap could be spaced out with cardboard or paint sticks, but the hood the bumper gaps cant be adjusted, so if i move the fenders out to open the gap between fender and hood, it wont match the hood to bumper gap. So, for the hood and anywhere else a really tight gap is possible, why not?

[AZPete]

A warning: Don't do what I did. I installed the door frame, latches, fiberglass door shell and even the power windows on my 818C, then found that the inner door panels would not fit. My door frame is too far inward so the indented part of the door panel hits the frame. When you install your door frame and latch, make sure the latch is about 1 inch from the inside edge of the door shell, like in the manual photos. And, test fit the inside door panel before going forward.

[Frank818]

Oh god that is so sad man! What are you going to do?

I was fortunate, cuz when I read different door install procedures from this forum, all had a major flaw: they lacked a couple of important steps, including Tamra's install procedure. I couldn't find how to find where to locate the striker. I decided to check the pix in FFR's manual, in case they show that step. They do, not in a clear way but in a page they explain how to cut a slice in the door to clear the striker and they show a pic with the striker being at 1" from the inner edge of the side sail. So I copied that. Thank you for confirming but I'm shocked that you have to redo that and I wonder what you'll do to fix it.

[svanlare]

Ouch, I hope it isn't too much rework Pete.

[AZPete]

Hey, Frank and Steve, no worries. This is an opportunity to modify the door panel into a custom design that will fit my doors and also be distinctive. It will be much easier than reworking the door latch, window, etc. I'm thinking about armrests, pull handles, cool inside handles and maybe a pocket or pouch. There's no deadline, so why not?.

[Frank818]

Pocket and pouch, yeah I need one of these too. We will follow your thread and see what you come up with.

[RM1SepEx]

Pete, check out what Aloha818 did for his doors.... very nice

[Speedy G]

Since this is the body install thread, I thought I'd share what worked for me. The best pics are Tamra's:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?16067-Andrew-amp-Tamra-s-818SR-EM-Autox-Hybrid-Destroked-Long-Rod-Build&p=199362&viewfull=1#post199362

She's only got one picture missing. The picture is the most critical intersection. It's the door-fender-hood-windshield structrure intersection. Does anybod have a picture of how it's supposed to look? I'd love to see it from different angles. Frank818 posted one but he's got a coupe front.

Thanks,

Speedy G

[Frank818]

I'd love to see it from different angles. Frank818 posted one but he's got a coupe front.

Good news is that area is the exact same for both Gen1 and Gen2 front noses.
Also now all 818s have the Gen2 nose, not just the Coupe.

I think metros or Andrew or Redfogo posted pix of that area. Someone did a big reconstruction of the fender to better match that specific area. He's got a red gel coat car.

[Speedy G]

This is the right message for fitting the top rear of the fenders:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?10649-RM1Sepex-Build-Thread&p=152067&viewfull=1#post152067