Anyone interested in a Metric Hardware Addition List?

[JeffS]

After several orders to BelMetric to order various nuts and bolts, each time paying another shipping fee, I thought it might help future builders if we kept a list of additional metric hardware that we used in our builds. I won't rant about how all the hardware in this kit should be metric to begin with, but I am including in this list hardware that I used to replace non metric items provided by FFR. Here's what I've needed so far:

For the front spindle upper bracket bolt (replacing the donor CAM bolt):
(2x) M16x1.5x60 Hex Bolt (Wish it was a flange bolt but couldn't find one)
(2x) M16 Flat Washer (Not necessary if flange bolt was available)
(2x) M16 Flange Nut

If you break the front spindle lower ball joint pinch bolts and need to drill them out, then these are good replacements:
(2x) M10x1.25x60 Flange Bolt
(2x) M10x1.25 Flange Nut

To replace the 5/16"X1" button head screws for mounting the pedal assembly to the firewall (Note... Later frames may mount the pedal assembly differently??)
(4x) M8x25 Button Head Stainless Screw
(4x) M8 Nylock Stainless Flange Nut

To mount the clutch master cylinder to the pedal assembly studs that stick through the firewall:
(2x) M8 Nylock Stainless Flange Nut

Mounting the brake master cylinder is problematic. I wanted the master cylinder to sit vertical, using M8 stainless studs coming out through the firewall and secured with M8 Nylock Flange Nuts on the outside. There is too much pedal bracketry over the drivers side mounting hole to drill through the pedal assembly if you want the master cylinder to be vertical. I countersunk the chassis from the inside, then tapped a hole for an M8 Flathead screw, then threaded the flathead screw into the tapped hole from the inside and added thread locker to the head. Then I bolted the pedal assembly over top of the flathead screw. You can drill a hole clean through the chassis and pedal assembly on the passenger side but you need to grind off part of the button head to load the bolt through from the inside. Now there is a vendor making a mounting adapter plate which is probably easier than the above method. I used the hardware below:

(1x) M8x40 Button Head Stainless Screw (The head needs to be ground down for clearance. This bolt loads from the inside.)
(1x) M8x40 Flathead Stainless Screw (Countersink and tap the chassis from the inside, load from the inside, then bolt the pedal assembly over it.)
(2x) M8 Nylock Stainless Nut (on the outside bolting the master cylinder onto the firewall)

To mount the front lower control arm rear bushing using the donor M14x1.5 Flange Bolts;
(4x) M14x1.5 flange Nuts (I have not found a source for these yet)


Jeff

[bompus]

I think I found you some M14x1.5 flange nuts @ Maryland Metrics. Just google them for their DTFLOCK nut products list. Never used them, but figured I would use my google ninja skills to help you find some :)

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Some large bolts I bought from Belmetric for suspension ( I have 2 cars)
Bob

12 x WFHV16 - Hardened Flat Washer (WFHV16) = $6.12
4 x BH16X1.5X40 - Hex bolt 10.9 (BH16X1.5X40) = $18.24
12 x NNH16X1.5 - Class 10 Nylock (NNH16X1.5) = $15.36
12 x NNH14X1.5 - Class 10 Nylock (NNH14X1.5) = $16.32
4 x BH14X1.5X60 - Hex bolt 10.9 (BH14X1.5X60) = $18.96
4 x BH16X1.5X65 - Hex bolt 10.9 (BH16X1.5X65) = $19.52

[longislandwrx]

I got everything from Bolt Barn on Ebay. they had the M16 flange bolts as well as all the other long ones I needed. Ace has almost everything else.

[Doowop]

this is a great idea. Thanks. I would be nice to get people's inputs and then create an actual spread sheet for that.Thanks

[Xusia]

I was working on that. Then work got too busy. :(

[JeffS]

We should add sway bar mounting brackets to this list. I'm not sure that any flavor or model year donor has the correct rear brackets that line up on the frame. After re-reading all the posts on this subject I bought the Prothane 19-1116 sway bar bracket kit that others have used.

[CU9DZ]

Hi Jeff. This is Davis I just met you at the FFR open house. I damaged the long bolt on my 2002 donor car that holds the rear spindle to the two lateral links. It was pretty rusted in and I stripped the threads on the end slightly. I think it is M14 x 1.5 x 238. The Subaru dealer wants $31.00. Going to see if a friend of my son can fix the threads but may have to get a new or used part somewhere.
It was great meeting you.

[CptTripps]

I was thinking that it may be a good idea to have a list of the bolts needed from the donor as well. I don't plan on re-using any of the bolts that came off a 10-yr old car. As much time and energy we're all putting into these builds, another $100-$200 in hardware wouldn't be money poorly spent. Especially if we can move everything to Metric at the same time.

As soon as someone gets an excel sheet together, I can see about having someone in the industry put a kit together for us. I used to do a lot of work with the fastener industry. They make kits up all the time.

[nkw8181]

Oohhhhhhhh ahhhhhh I'm liking the sound of this! I just had to look through my inventory sheet to find out if the rivnuts where metric or not and what size. I wish it was all metric as well but I understand that there other cars didn't use metric so by default they are using common parts to cut down on cost/ part numbers and inventory.

[Scargo]

A great idea to create this thread and help us all out. Thanks. I want all Metric... I may leave a few big items alone, like on the suspension.

[Xusia]

BTW - I'm not going to have the time to do this like I wanted. Sorry guys. :(

[billjr212]

For the front spindle upper bracket bolt (replacing the donor CAM bolt):
(2x) M16x1.5x60 Hex Bolt (Wish it was a flange bolt but couldn't find one)
(2x) M16 Flat Washer (Not necessary if flange bolt was available)
(2x) M16 Flange Nut



FFR appears to have added (2) M16 x 60 flange bolts and (2) M16 flange nuts to the hardware package. I did a search of the PDF instruction file and found no reference to them. They are also not on the hardware list from shipping, so I'm thinking this gap has been plugged and the instructions just haven't caught up.

[Frank818]

Bob on your M16x1.5x60 for the OEM cam bolts, was 60mm long enough or 65 would have been better? It seems 65 is harder to find, it's either 60 or 70.

McMaster doesn't seem to have x1.5, only x2, so I'll look elsewhere.

[STiPWRD]

Bob on your M16x1.5x60 for the OEM cam bolts, was 60mm long enough or 65 would have been better? It seems 65 is harder to find, it's either 60 or 70.

McMaster doesn't seem to have x1.5, only x2, so I'll look elsewhere.

Frank, I ordered McMaster P/N 91180A818
Med-strg Zinc-pltd Stl Cap Screw - Class 8.8, Hex Head, M16 Thread, Pitch: 1.5, 60mm Long

These were long enough. Order some hex nuts and washers while you're at it (91415A265 and 96765A175)

[Frank818]

Ha, I get it, you have to use non-flanged cap screws and not 10.9 grade. I'm fine with that, yup, will add that to my list! Tnx.

Did you realize the bolts' part number end with "818"? Those gotta work! :)

The hex nuts cost a lot for what we need, need 2, get 20. I think I still have my OEM nuts, I'll take a look.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob on your M16x1.5x60 for the OEM cam bolts, was 60mm long enough or 65 would have been better? It seems 65 is harder to find, it's either 60 or 70.

McMaster doesn't seem to have x1.5, only x2, so I'll look elsewhere.

Frank
I did not order m16x60, I ordered m16 x 65 for the top bolt.
Since I could not find flange bolts I used thick washers. 65mm was necessary,

36398

Bob.

[Frank818]

Ok Bob. I also checked longisland's Bolt Barn on ebay and they no longer carry M16x1.5.
But why do we look at 1.5, would M16x2 fit? I can get flange bolts/nuts in those specs, but I don't know if the pitch difference would make them not suitable for the spindle. I don't see why.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Ok Bob. I also checked longisland's Bolt Barn on ebay and they no longer carry M16x1.5.
But why do we look at 1.5, would M16x2 fit? I can get flange bolts/nuts in those specs, but I don't know if the pitch difference would make them not suitable for the spindle. I don't see why.

I got all mine from "Belmetric"

https://www.belmetric.com/bh16x15x65p-hex-bolt-109-p-2522.html?zenid=n3aob1ish6hpkteehh9rcdjhp2&cPath=506_512_408

I was told by someone when I was a kid (maybe my dad) that fine thread was stronger.
Subaru sure likes fine threads. But I hate Subaru fine thread lug nuts/studs.

I thought the newer kits came with the M16 bolts.
Bob

[xxguitarist]

Fine threads are slightly stronger, less cross section area cut away for the threads & also a little more shear area on the threads IIRC.
They're also a little less likely to vibrate loose, as a function of the thread angle.

More importantly, the clamping load of fine vs coarse is quite different at a given torque.

[STiPWRD]

I was told by someone when I was a kid (maybe my dad) that fine thread was stronger

That's true. Fine thread bolts will have a slightly higher tensile area and much more contact area between the bolt/nut threads to distribute the load.

[matteo92065]

I got all mine from "Belmetric"

https://www.belmetric.com/bh16x15x65p-hex-bolt-109-p-2522.html?zenid=n3aob1ish6hpkteehh9rcdjhp2&cPath=506_512_408

I was told by someone when I was a kid (maybe my dad) that fine thread was stronger.
Subaru sure likes fine threads. But I hate Subaru fine thread lug nuts/studs.

I thought the newer kits came with the M16 bolts.
Bob

My build #222 came with the M16 bolts.

[STiPWRD]

More importantly, the clamping load of fine vs coarse is quite different at a given torque.

The bolt clamping load, or preload (P), is mainly dependent on the nominal bolt diameter (D), friction at the threads and head of the bolt (K), and applied torque (T):
P = T/(K*D)
The preload will also depend on the stiffness of the clamped members relative to the bolt (for instance plastic vs aluminum parts being bolted down with a SS bolt). But this simple emperical equation is a very good first order approximation. I haven't seen fine vs coarse pitch have a huge effect on preload although in some cases fine threads are more prone to galling. This usually occurs if the bolt and threaded material are the same and can be fixed with lubricants or low friction coatings/platings.

[xxguitarist]

The bolt clamping load, or preload (P), is mainly dependent on the nominal bolt diameter (D), friction at the threads and head of the bolt (K), and applied torque (T):
P = T/(K*D)
The preload will also depend on the stiffness of the clamped members relative to the bolt (for instance plastic vs aluminum parts being bolted down with a SS bolt). But this simple emperical equation is a very good first order approximation. I haven't seen fine vs coarse pitch have a huge effect on preload although in some cases fine threads are more prone to galling. This usually occurs if the bolt and threaded material are the same and can be fixed with lubricants or low friction coatings/platings.

Interesting. I've been wrong before.. Lol.

It's strange to me that the lead angle of the threads wouldn't be a significant contributor. I guess it's one where the friction is the large contributor of the opposing torque, and since friction is a function of the normal force & mu, you achieve a similar torque.

I wonder how different this case is for bolts torqued with lubrication?

[STiPWRD]

Lubricants are great for inhibiting rust and ensuring smooth thread contact but can have a huge affect on bolt preload. They directly affect the friction coefficient so a lubricated thread can have a value of say 0.1 or 0.15 where as a very clean dry thread can be in the range of 0.35 to 0.4. So for the same torque applied, the preload in the bolt can vary by 3X. In some cases, if you lubricate a bolt that's meant to be dry torqued, you can significantly increase the pre-stress in the bolt. Good to keep in mind. <End thread hijack> ;)