A Challenge Issued by Alpha Romeo

[Doc_FFR]

The Italians are coming!

Alpha Romeo announced the 4C in March of this year, and I think you’ll agree they’re trying to steal our thunder. ;)

They are producing a 95” wheelbase, 1800 lbs car with a mid engined inline 4 producing 200 bhp. They estimate 0-60 times in the low 5s and cost will be around $60,000. Sales in the us should start in the USA in 2012.

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9281/4clive12.th.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/4clive12.jpg/)
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/2789/4clive05.th.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/4clive05.jpg/)
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8346/alfaromeo1.th.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/alfaromeo1.jpg/)
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/8192/alfaromeo2.th.jpg (http://img88.imageshack.us/i/alfaromeo2.jpg/)

I think we'll beat them at the price point, but that is one nicely done vehicle. A challenge has been issued. Can we compete?

[bu11dogg2]

60k? 5 second to 60?

It won't sell

[Doc_FFR]

60k? 5 second to 60?

It won't sell

http://www.0-60times.com/porsche.asp
Really? Scroll down to the 2010 Porsche Boxster S and let me know what you read there.
http://www.porsche.com/usa/
What's the MSRP on a new Porsche Boxster S? $58,600

The question isn't if it is going to sell, it is IF they are going to sell it. Alfa has been trying to get back into US markets for awhile now. They may end up just selling the thing in Europe.

[crobin4]

I'll be sure to wave as I pass one on a track day. If there's enough time to get my hand up.;)

[PhyrraM]

Two different markets. The FFR is for guys looking for performance on a budget and don't mind getting their hands dirty to reach for it.

The Alpha is for stockbrokers who think that performance cars only come from Italy.;)

[Doc_FFR]

Two different markets.
Well of course they are. :)
The point is to take the challenge and make a car that is faster and better looking.

[thebeerbaron]

Well of course they are. :)
The point is to take the challenge and make a car that is faster and better looking.

No, I don't see that. Alfa is taking the gorgeous and exclusive 8C and making it "affordable" by scaling it down and mass producing it. The fact that the 4C will perform is secondary to other goals, namely attracting customers who might go for a more expensive Alfa down the road. First and foremost, the 4C is recognizable as a modern Alfa. Everything else is incidental, though I have a sneaking suspicion that fleet-mileage statistics are driving the model.

The 818 will look good, but at first I doubt it will be recognizable as a Factory Five by anyone who isn't a customer. It will be establishing a brand, rather than reinforcing it.* Look to our older threads where we all drooled over the 818 as a Lotus Elise/Exige Slayer. Why is Lotus the target - because it has established itself as a lightweight, minimalist, performance brand. Lightweight, minimalist, performance is exactly what Jim outlined in his 818 thesis. It can't look like a kit car that's for sure, but I think it's likely that we'll be talking girl-next-door pretty, rather than supermodel hot.

I guess this is a long way of saying I don't see any challenge between the two. One is pretty, uses a brand name with yacht-club cachet, and happens to be light with aspirational performance. The other is lighter, prettier, and faster than has ever been possible at this price point. I think without any real overlap, there's no challenge there.


* not that FFR needs establishing, I'm speaking more of the establishing a model / genre that FFR hasn't touched yet. (edit)

[unclebigbad]

No, I don't see that. Alfa is taking the gorgeous and exclusive 8C and making it "affordable" by scaling it down and mass producing it. The fact that the 4C will perform is secondary to other goals, namely attracting customers who might go for a more expensive Alfa down the road. First and foremost, the 4C is recognizable as a modern Alfa. Everything else is incidental, though I have a sneaking suspicion that fleet-mileage statistics are driving the model.

The 818 will look good, but at first I doubt it will be recognizable as a Factory Five by anyone who isn't a customer. It will be establishing a brand, rather than reinforcing it.* Look to our older threads where we all drooled over the 818 as a Lotus Elise/Exige Slayer. Why is Lotus the target - because it has established itself as a lightweight, minimalist, performance brand. Lightweight, minimalist, performance is exactly what Jim outlined in his 818 thesis. It can't look like a kit car that's for sure, but I think it's likely that we'll be talking girl-next-door pretty, rather than supermodel hot.

I guess this is a long way of saying I don't see any challenge between the two. One is pretty, uses a brand name with yacht-club cachet, and happens to be light with aspirational performance. The other is lighter, prettier, and faster than has ever been possible at this price point. I think without any real overlap, there's no challenge there.


* not that FFR needs establishing, I'm speaking more of the establishing a model / genre that FFR hasn't touched yet. (edit)

Well said.

[Doc_FFR]

I think you missed the point, and that's of course my fault. It's not a challenge, it's a "challenge". Alfa Romeo doesn't know FFR exists and neither do the majority of their customers. They ARE building a car remarkably similar to the stated dimensions and performance data we've been given. The 818 may be more like a Lotus but if say, you stuck the pair in a Car and Driver comparison wouldn't you want the verdict to be the 818 is the better looking and more fun to drive vehicle? So that's the "Challenge"

[bbjones121]

That is slow. I would neverr buy one.

[thebeerbaron]

I think you missed the point, and that's of course my fault. It's not a challenge, it's a "challenge". Alfa Romeo doesn't know FFR exists and neither do the majority of their customers. They ARE building a car remarkably similar to the stated dimensions and performance data we've been given. The 818 may be more like a Lotus but if say, you stuck the pair in a Car and Driver comparison wouldn't you want the verdict to be the 818 is the better looking and more fun to drive vehicle? So that's the "Challenge"

I get what you're driving at, but at the same time I don't see the comparison existing. Do Alfa customers care what Car and Driver says? If the 818 beat the 4C, would they run out buy the 818 instead? I think that's a resounding no, because they're buying the Alfa name first and foremost. Do 818 customers care what Car and Driver says? I suspect not because they're attracted to the 818 either by the fun of building their own car, the desire to own a custom vehicle, or the price-performance ratio that the FFR car offers.

I think 818 buyers and 4C buyers will each buy their cars for a different reason and I don't think a magazine review will change that. I think the C&D article could draw attention to the kit certainly, but how many kit builders really get their news from the big car mags? Besides, skeptics like me have always figured the car mags reviews are biased by advertising revenue. About all they're good for are pretty, cliched pictures. And Peter Egan's column.

Is it fair to reduce your "challenge" to - what does Car and Driver like? I ask, who cares*?


* hint - my personal feelings have little to do with this question

[PhyrraM]

Maybe it's just me, but I have always found the girls next door to be far more attractive than poster bait. Maybe because it's a two way communication thing, instead of a one way drool? Maybe that's why I like the non-supercar designs more than the exotic inspired ones. I also like Lotus better than any other exotic manufacture.

As far as the 818 not being recognizable as a FFR car. Well, maybe. With a design like Xabier's (and most others shown so-far) new ground is definitely broken. But there is room for something modern, and also have FFR's slightly 'retro' cues. Look to ScottyB's design on GRM's thread. (He is waiting for mod clearance to post his here, less than 10 posts). I think a design like that would fit right into FFRs lineup.

[MikeK]

Maybe it's just me, but I have always found the girls next door to be far more attractive than poster bait. Maybe because it's a two way communication thing, instead of a one way drool? Maybe that's why I like the non-supercar designs more than the exotic inspired ones. I also like Lotus better than any other exotic manufacture.

As far as the 818 not being recognizable as a FFR car. Well, maybe. With a design like Xabier's (and most others shown so-far) new ground is definitely broken. But there is room for something modern, and also have FFR's slightly 'retro' cues. Look to ScottyB's design on GRM's thread. (He is waiting for mod clearance to post his here, less than 10 posts). I think a design like that would fit right into FFRs lineup.
Yes, give me the girl next door any day, I can't afford to pay for some anorexics heroine addiction anyway. As for ScottyB's design I agree that it would be a perfect addition to the FFR stable as well as my garage.

[Doc_FFR]

1) Let me challenge you directly on the Car and Driver issue*. I know of at least three different times that Factory Five cars have been reviewed by C&D and at least one of those times it was pitted against several production cars.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/04q3/2004_caterham_seven_superlight_r_vs._factory_five_ racing_mark_ii_roadster_honda_s2000_lotus_elise_ma zdaspeed_mx-5_miata-comparison_tests

From talking to Mark, sales orders exploded after at least one of those articles came out. So I guess FFR customers DO care about what is said in major magazines. In addition, I really should object to the stereotype that all potential Alfa customers are mindless yuppie douche bags who only buy Alfa Romeos because the name sounds expensive and exclusive. If it is a “fleet car” it would be their first and wouldn’t make much business sense for a company trying to relaunch in the USA.

Yes I grant you the obvious point that its immediate competitors will be the Boxster, Elise, Z4, and maybe the TTS or the SLK. But I wouldn’t be surprised if the 818 comes off well enough to see at least some news media doing a head to head or a class comparison. (See above link)

And regardless of what you say, your bias against major car magazines is evident. Time to recuse yourself.

2) Never mix your women with your automobiles, the results are ambiguous at best. First, of all none of the weekly winners I’ve seen look to me like “The girl next door.” So I guess it depends on exactly what a supermodel/hag/girl-next-door is in terms of fiberglass, aluminum, and steel.

“Hey Bob would you like to come over and see the new car I’m working on? It’s as pretty as the Girl-Next-Door!”
“Yeah... (Looks next door) No thanks Mike. I’ve still got to finish my income taxes before April 15th.”

3) I agree that OVERALL the customer bases of each product are separate (you don’t have to have limited funds to enjoy kit cars). That’s beside the point. Why does Lotus, or the Exocar market, or kit cars exist at all? It is the CHALLENGE to produce a car that performs as well/looks as good as the competition for minimal cost. If there were no CHALLENGE there’s no point to this project at all. Either settle for less or pay more. It’s a triumph of American (and Japanese) engineering plus our own sweat and frustration over corporations foreign and national with billions of dollars and thousands of employees at their disposal. So no, I’m sure Luca Cordero di Montezemolo didn’t walk up to Mark Smith and say “I’m going to blow you out of the water”, but they both have projects with near identical size, weight, displacement, and release date. Wouldn’t it be great to say that you built a car in your garage with the same recipe but got better results?

*Pun intended

[riptide motorsport]

Interesting how this thread has developed!

[thebeerbaron]

I am ill served by the fact that hyperbole and tongue-in-cheek statements translate poorly across the interwebs. And I hope no one is getting flustered by this conversation, because to me this is just lighthearted banter (since there's so little to discuss on this forum otherwise).

I think I oversimplified when I said that 4C purchasers were buying the name first and foremost. I think that they will be drawn to the fact the car is pretty, comfortable, and performs. I think that they will expect far more coddling than the minimalist 818 could ever offer. I object to you taking my "yacht club" generalization (which I thought contained enough hyperbole to be taken as such) and turning it into a nasty slur, but I won't take offense.

The girl next door statement is simple to clarify. Supermodels look pretty because they spend godawful amounts of time refining their already gifted appearances and are further aided by after-the-fact retouching. Look at that 4C body. There are manufacturing and design elements that simply cannot be achieved with the technology and budget that F5 has available for this project. This is in no way a knock against Factory Five. We just have to be realistic that the body must be produced using gelcoat fiberglass, which like metal and carbon, has its limits, especially when it must be used for the entire body. Also, the number of parts made with different surfaces or finishes is going to be severely limited by budget. Look at those side scoops on the 4C. I can't count the number of distinct pieces in there, but there's a lot, and they're made from different materials and are very precisely fitted. Alfa can do this because they have the resources to spend a man-year designing that area and the production processes to produce those intricate parts. Those intricate details are what I think separates "supermodel" from "girl next door".

I have every faith that the 818 will be stunning, because Dave will accept nothing less. But I am not deluded to think that it will have the refinements and "retouches" that separate a supermodel from the pretty girl next door. (Of which I am a massive fan)

I can see a C&D comparison between an 818, a FFR Roadster, an Atom, a Caterham, and an Elise/Exige. You're right, that probably would drive sales, I concede that point. And I expect the 818 would beat the 4C hands down in a straight up performance comparison, especially if you brought my 818. How does that make me feel? No different. It's a hollow victory because the goals of the two are very different, in my mind. One is a minimalist performance vehicle, the other is a luxury performance vehicle that happens to be light weight.

[wjfawb0]

I don't read any magazines, myself. I've learned what I know about factory five from existing customers and car forums. Unless my disposable income increases greatly, I would never consider a car over $30,000 for much of anything (unless it is making money for me). For my uses and the amount of time I would spend in a vehicle as a daily driver or weekend fun car it's just not worth it. That's what makes the 818 concept so popular with me. Of the kit cars out there in the Lotus/Locost type most are over $20,000 USD for a well done complete vehicle. I have to weigh the excitment of a kit car against the comparable cost of a used mass production car that I could tinker with as well. Right now my liter sportbike is my cheap entertainment on nice days.

[Niburu]

I don't read any magazines, myself. I've learned what I know about factory five from existing customers and car forums. Unless my disposable income increases greatly, I would never consider a car over $30,000 for much of anything (unless it is making money for me). .

What about a used 4C in about 5 years? (look how dramatically Boxster prices dropped in the used market)

[Oppenheimer]

"FFR, allowing guys with skills to beat guys with wallets." Dave Smith

So it shall be with these two similarly spec'ed, but differently targeted, performance vehicles. The 818 will beat the 4C in any performance category, the Alfo will win all the DD, comfort, luxury categories. And both types of buyers will be pleased.

But we're missing the point of the OP, who even tried to clarify it for us. He isn't saying there IS a challenge, he is saying we should view this as a challenge. Since the 4C is similar in spec, and recently announced, we should view the Alfa as a target to shoot for. We already got it beat performance wise, no lets try to match its looks, as well as its other attributes.

While we'll never reach its level of comfort, convenience, and luxury, I agree with the OP that these would be worthy goals to shoot for. We won't reach them, but in trying it would improve the end result.

To me, the Elise has been the 'target' that I wanted to see the 818 reach. To be lighter, faster, handle just as well, look better, be just as 'comfortable' and complete of an interior. To my POV, the OP is asking for the 4C to be 'target'. I'd be overjoyed just to best the Elise on most counts. The 4C seems like the wrong car to reach for.

[wjfawb0]

What about a used 4C in about 5 years? (look how dramatically Boxster prices dropped in the used market)

I'm not a fan of BMW, Mercedes, Porsche or other makes like Alpha Romeo from a cost to own standpoint, so I doubt it. A donor kit car from a popular and mass produced vehicle like the WRX is ideal, because I know where to find deals on replacement parts and maintenance items. I can also still have sub 4 second 0-60 mph times too. I'm no road racer, so acceleration is much more important to me than handling on a road course. To give you an idea how much I care about the looks of the car I would likely build a superstalker if the 818 turns out to be the wrong car for me. It's the path I was on before the 818 was announced. The main draws for me were WRX and hard top. So far the 818 has started to slide in the wrong direction for me since the initial "What's New" announcement.

[Cooluser23]

If the FFR 818 looks half as nice as this Alfa Romero, or McLaren MP4-12c, or the '11 Lancia Stratos (kitcar), I can totally live with that. B)

[Cr8tr]

I have just finished my design that will put that alpha design to shame. From sketches to 3D modeling. Will submit on the last week of the deadline. Holding off on the big gun in the end.

[riptide motorsport]

Cr8tr, I hope for my selfish sake your right! ..................Steven

[Cr8tr]

Cr8tr, I hope for my selfish sake your right! ..................Steven

It's all fun and game. Here's a teaser image.

[Olimk2]

So 2 month to wait then!

[Doc_FFR]

I have just finished my design that will put that alpha design to shame.

You see?!? THAT is what I'm talking about!
I wondered if strategy was going to have any affect on the weekly submissions. I understand the power of a coup de grace, but don't underestimate the value of building a strong following early on. Besides, submitting early gets you feedback and a chance to amend your design. However, if I'm reading you right you're more worried about people ripping off your design, which is also a risk.

Perhaps the way to go is to show off small pieces every week to build interest and suspense while still keeping your overall design protected. I think that might be an even better strategy, makes you a power player.
Ignore me at your liberty of course. :)

[Gollum]

For some reason I doubt a US-spec of the alpha will actually reach 1800 pounds. Even the lightest models of the Elise don't touch those numbers. And $60k will most likely be a base figure, not a realistic dealer sticker once options are added on and the dealer adds their markup. I really doubt the Alpha is going to live up to it's own hype. I kind of hope it does, but I doubt it will.

As far as the build quality, recent Alpha's have been a lot better than their reputation has been in the past. Let's hope they can build this car without it falling apart within the first 10 years.

And if they DO make it to 1800 pounds, I'd say we could give them a run for their money in regards to comfort and luxury. There's a reason the most comfortable cars in the world (Jag comes to mind) are extremely heavy boats for their size. The 818 will always have a leg up in most areas because the chassis will be stiff and light compared to pretty much anything out there. This gives you room to add or remove certain features to tailor the car to your goals, within the confines of what the chassis allows of course. That's the real beauty of FFR vehicles. You simply can't beat the performance AND flexibility of a tube chassis. It's a wonder so few manufactures dare pull it off today.

[Cr8tr]

Patient is a virtue. I enter this contest not for the win, but a win would be a bonus. The challenge is to design a sexy little car that can out shine an Alpha and a Lotus Elise. Giving an OEM companies a run for there money in terms of a hot design. It's always great to have feed back to improved your design. The down fall to that is you'll get confused by all the great comments b/c you tried to pleased everyone so you'll win. IMO the best winning design are the designed that YOU are passionate about and believed in. Its the design that pleases you.

[Turboguy]

I think we'll beat them at the price point, but that is one nicely done vehicle. A challenge has been issued. Can we compete?


Um.....I would tend to think their "challenge" has been aimed at Lotus and their Elise.....they likely don't even know that FFR exists.

[Oppenheimer]

Um.....I would tend to think their "challenge" has been aimed at Lotus and their Elise.....they likely don't even know that FFR exists.

um, exactly. Read the rest of the posts first.

[WhirlpoolBrewer]

I know its just a sneak peak, but cr8ter's car is looking fantastic. The only downside of this design competition is that I'm looking at a bunch of gorgeous cars, and I'm only ever get to own one of them :(

[Doc_FFR]

Little update on the 4C. Abarth is going to take it and make a roadster with even more power. More and more like the FFR project...
I'm sure the 818 will be faster, I think road handling, body design, and interior are the other points up in the air.

[PhyrraM]

I know its just a sneak peak, but cr8ter's car is looking fantastic.

It looks like a fantastic job at rendering of a totally unknown style. I'd love to see some of the current favorite designs rendered by cr8ter. ;)

In the end, it's all about hype. And cr8ter is playing the game. I'm sure many others are too.


The only downside of this design competition is that I'm looking at a bunch of gorgeous cars, and I'm only ever get to own one of them :(

True. I'm really not worried at all about liking the 'design' the 818 anymore. I'm way more concerned about the translation to the finished product and how the fiberglass/gelcoat meduim, and budget, impact design decisions.

[Cr8tr]

My last teaser for this month. In May I'll provide 2 more teaser. I'll be back in a month. Goodluck all!

[Olimk2]

Cr8tr you're doing the Lambo thing prior to uncover the sexto elemento!!

[PhyrraM]

Don't forget that Ford did the same thing to slowly unveil the 'revolutionary' 1986 Taurus too.

[keys2heaven]

It's all fun and game. Here's a teaser image.

So not fair. Teaser looks interesting.

In lieu of posting any more teasers, tell us a bit more about youself. You obviously have experience with rendering and design.

[crackedcornish]

True. I'm really not worried at all about liking the 'design' the 818 anymore. I'm way more concerned about the translation to the finished product and how the fiberglass/gelcoat meduim, and budget, impact design decisions.

I wasn't worried either...till I saw week 5's winner

[bbjones121]

I wasn't worried either...till I saw week 5's winner
I agree...WTF.

[PhyrraM]

Maybe it was chose because it was different? Specifically chosen to gauge reaction......Hrmmmm...

[bbjones121]

Maybe it was chose because it was different? Specifically chosen to gauge reaction......Hrmmmm...
Or maybe because all the other entries for the week were really that bad.

[unclebigbad]

The suspense is killing me already!

[Cr8tr]

So not fair. Teaser looks interesting.

In lieu of posting any more teasers, tell us a bit more about youself. You obviously have experience with rendering and design.

I am a consultant industrial designer. Have been designing many years. Here is the important tip for designing a sexy or cool car. PROPORTION baby...I don't care how creative or cool your designs are. If you don't understand proportion your car will not have that awesome stance every car industries want to have on there vehicles. A perfect proportion woman can wear any unattractive dress and still looks hot. Imagine when she wear a nice designed dress.

@PhyrraM- Once I submitted the work I will show all of ideation sketches

@unclebigbad-This teaser is just for you. More suspense! I promised you, you will not be dissapointed in the end.

[Cr8tr]

1360

@keys2heaven- I am consultant industrial designer and been designing for many years. Here is one important tip for everyone when it comes to car designing, PROPORTION...if you undstand proportion you will have an outstanding design with awesome stance. A woman with a perfect porportion can wear any unattrictive dress and still looks hot! Just image if she where a well designed dress.

@PhyrraM- In time you will see all of my exporation sketches.

@unclebigbad- This teaser is just for you. More suspense! I promised you, you won't be let down when the time comes.

[keys2heaven]

^^ Cr8tr ^^

Thank you for the newest teaser. Do what you need to in order to feel comfortable about your submission. If your design is as good as the renderings, then we're in for a treat.

Questions:

How feasible in reality do you think your design would fare for a $9,900 kit?
Where have you placed the radiator? Intercooler airflow comes from where?
Removeable top option? If so, where is it stored?
Any consideration give to interior layout?

[Dave Smith]

Hmmmmm you guys are very smart. I admit nothing, but keep in mind there is a tremendous variety of submissions.

[Cr8tr]

First of all sorry for the repeated posts. I have covered all the parameters/hard points stated in the briefs of the competition. When you see the design you'll know where everything are supposed to be. For the interior I started about 30% finished. I figured the competition is about the exterior design so I am putting the interior on hold on my personal project.


^^ Cr8tr ^^

Thank you for the newest teaser. Do what you need to in order to feel comfortable about your submission. If your design is as good as the renderings, then we're in for a treat.

Questions:

How feasible in reality do you think your design would fare for a $9,900 kit?
Where have you placed the radiator? Intercooler airflow comes from where?
Removeable top option? If so, where is it stored?
Any consideration give to interior layout?

[05xtsy]

[QUOTE=PhyrraM;14665]It looks like a fantastic job at rendering of a totally unknown style. I'd love to see some of the current favorite designs rendered by cr8ter. ;)/QUOTE]


From what I can tell, his car is a 3D rendered model. Or maybe I'm stating the obvious :)

[PhyrraM]

From what I can tell, his car is a 3D rendered model. Or maybe I'm stating the obvious :)

Oh yeah, I know. I'm just saying it could look like a 1973 Pinto. A fantastically rendered 1973 Pinto. If Cr8tr thinks a bit of hype and suspense will win it for him, more power to ya brother.

I'd love to see Xabier's or ScottyB's, or some of the others designs, done up in fully rendered 3D.