What Donor car for MK4?

[Brada]

What makes the best donor cars for a MK4 build using the base kit? There are quite a few options with in 2 hrs of my location. A few of them even have built engines with HD trannys...
Should I be looking at the older 5.0's or the 4.6 SOHC, Cobra 4.6 DOHC? The newer 5.0 DOHC might be a little outta my reach unless I found the right wreck...
Also what is the going rate these days to have a 4.6 SOHC gone through and freshened up?
There are even a couple complete mustangs with bad running motors but with a so called "lower engine noise" at really reduces prices like $2200. If your going to have the engine gone through anyway, would that be a stupid way to go?
Any thoughts and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks,
Brad

[CraigS]

I suggest that you stay away from a donor car. This was a great concept back in 99 but you ended up w/ a car w/ 4 lug wheels and drum brakes. If you want to do something similar search for info on pallet cars. There used to be some salvage yards who did that. You could then specify what parts you wanted which often would not all come from the same car. Otherwise I would look at buying parts as you need them. An example of a problem w/ a donor is the rear axle. There never was a mustang w/ the fox width axle that also had disc brakes, 5 lugs, and a 355 gear. So you have to try to get an axle w/ most of the specs you want and then upgrade it to get the rest. Re; engines. There are many threads here and on the other forum discussing the plusses and minuses of the different engines so search for them and read a lot of info which will help you decide.

[skullandbones]

I went with a donor (92 GT). Just as CraigS mentioned, I had to change rearends to get 5 lugs and discs and still didn't get 3.55 but 3.27. I cherry picked the salvage yards for the spindles that worked the best for me. The donor concept just doesn't get it anymore unless you can find a really cheap built Cobra. Also the prices depend so much on location and availability. When I was looking at a donor the range was $2500 to $8500. The high end ones were modular or Cobras. Now days it is much better to choose your components specifically for the custom installation you are performing. Personally, I would go with a SBF either a 302 or 351 crate engine or short block and build up yourself. That will make your life much easier when placing it in the roadster. It looks good/correct and it gives you lots of room to work. If you are a hp hound then you will spend a proportional amount of money to satisfy your hp appetite. The engine can be the biggest budget buster besides paint and bodywork.

Good luck on your choices,

WEK.

[Brada]

I can install and change parts all day long but, Engine building is not in my skill set.
Do the Cobras come with a 5 lug rear end?
SBF?

[EJ III]

Brada, It is simple, all you have to do is change the axles to 5 lug, as I did, I also swapped the four lug rotors to 5 Lug. I did not use a donor to build my car, but I did not shy away from parts because they were 4 lug.

[Brada]

Good thanks, any motor choice advice for non-motor heads?

[tirod]

Choices abound, but as the design gets newer there are less options.

The 5.0 block is the standard these days, and there is a huge amount of aftermarket support. One thing Ford did do to make it less strong was pare out 70 pounds of cast iron, and above 500hp output (which is still considered extreme) the block is weak thru the cam bearings and lower end of the head bolts. Supercharged versions are well known to split horizontally with some spectacular results. Build it as a warmed over stroker and there is plenty of reliability.

The 351W is considered better in some respects, the block is reputedly strong enough to handle up to 700hp. It's really the 5.0 stroked by the factory with the iron left in, and with one significant improvement - the deck height is raised one inch along with the cam bore, leaving a substantial amount of room to install a much larger stroker crank. Where the 350 Chevy is about maxed out at 383, the 351W can go to 427 with about the same amount of block grinding.

Deck height is important on these builds because installing a high rise manifold, carburetor and air cleaner adds up to more vertical height than the state of the art '60s technology. There's only so much room under the hood.

Some are now using the small block low deck aftermarket blocks with thick cylinder walls and boring them to 4.125, making a 363 stroker motor. While exciting, the prospects are like this - use a stock block and crank, the motor costs $X. Add a stroker kit, add $1500. Add an aftermarket block, add another $2000 after machining. It quickly adds up exponentially as cubic inches are increased. Another factor is that these cars run weight in pounds to hp less than 10:1, where daily drivers are likely in the 15:1 and over. The performance potential is actually gained up front by having a 2,400 pound car compared to the McMustangs that now weigh over 3700 pounds. Adding more hp becomes an exercise in exponentially increasing costs for diminishing returns. Let your budget be your guide.

The modular motors have a following, but being from a tightly emission controlled era, there is a lot less market support and fewer parts. They aren't any less expensive, either, and the cam drives and head designs are problematic for some. They went thru a lot of revisions. They are also wide and modifications are required to fit them between the footboxes.

Old school big blocks are another build, the 390 up externally resemble the 427's, but they are much less plentiful, the market doesn't support them as much, and owners are quick to point out parts are higher. It doesn't help you can kit out a 351/427 stroker with faux valve covers and other trim so that the casual onloooker can't immediately see a difference. The big blocks are also long skirt and contain a lot of extra cast iron - but in these cars, it's really not a disadvantage as they are actually slightly light in the nose, which is something to keep in mind.

The Coyote is a redesign of the mod motor with narrow heads, which Ford realized was a better fit in their system. Being new, there are crate motors from Ford available, but they generally get run as is without major modifications. That's not bad as they put out 400 hp.

Running the mod motors or Coyote requires running EFI as they weren't made for carburetors, and the few conversions are expensive. That means the harness and ECU of some type need to be included in the budget. Others deliberately choose to run EFI on small blocks as they were converted to it, or purchase an aftermarket unit. They are more expensive to buy than running a carb, but offer advantages in having better cold weather start up, altitude compensation, etc.

One specific thing to keep in mind is that the choice of intake system does influence the choice in cam. EFI systems don't work well with low vacuum cams that won't keep a high volume of air passing thru the mass air flow sensor at idle. It's something a carb can compensate for with accelerator pumps injecting extra fuel as needed - but that is why they have less mileage, too. Gasoline at $3.50 a gallon is now the new standard.

Every car has a build purpose - race, show, street. What it's built to do best then influences what engine to pick, a retro builder emulating the early versions will stick to an authentic looking motor, those choosing to build something as a statement of the current leading edge in technology make other choices. That means figuring out what the car is intended to do, then choosing a motor that helps it. It's the same as picking out a hunting rifle, you have to know what you are going to shoot at and how far - then you pick the cartridge that fits, not necessarily what is the cool new bullet of the month. Keeping the end use in mind helps cut down the budget entanglements and defines what you do spend more money on, and what doesn't get any.

[Brada]

I found my donor car. It's a 94 mustang GT Convertible. Has the 5.0 with lots of goodies on it. For starters, it has Trickflow track heat heads, Ford Racing e cams, SVO GT40 with all supporting mods, Pro-M 77mm mass air flow, 30 lbs injectors. Other cool stuff are the brand new staggered Billet Cobra 17" wheels with new Nitto 555 drag radials, Ford Racing 3:55 real end gears with trac lock diff. And a few other things of interest. I'm pretty psyched. Off to FFR this Saturday to order my Mk4.

[Jeff Kleiner]

There are some nuances to be aware of when using a '94 or '95 donor, most notably the fact that the input shaft on the T5 trans is longer which in turn means that the bellhousing is unique and the trans will be farther rearward necessitating a shorter driveshaft than a Fox body donor. The wiring harness is somewhat more complex and the engine front dress was only used for those two model years. Nothing insurmountable but you'll need to keep in mind that there are some differences from Fox or mod-motor donors that come into play. Congrats on taking the first step!

Jeff

[Brada]

Hi Jeff,
Do you know if FFR will have the correct drive shaft or will I have to have the donor car's cut to length? Will this also put my shifter too far back? Not being an engine guy, what do you mean by the front dress being different those two years. I had heard something about the wiring harness regarding some Ford anti theft stuff, but I thought it started in '96 with the 4.6L? This must be why I could not find a Painless wiring harness listed for the '94?
I appreciate the heads up!
Thanks,
Brad

[Jeff Kleiner]

Better check with FFR on the driveshaft; they used to show a different part number and length requirement for a SN95 (10.375") vs. Fox (11.00") donor but I believe now they only offer only one with a comprimised length for both platforms. Yes, the shifter will be a bit farther rearward.

Front dress is everything forward of the timing cover; water pump, pulleys, accessories and their brackets. Since those two years were unique there is not much aftermarket support so builders make do with the OEM stuff or change the front end over to the more plentiful Fox configuration.

The wiring harness in the 94/95 does not incorporate the PATS anti-theft system (that did come later) but was kind of a bridge between OBD-1 and OBD-2. As a cost saving measure Ford used the same harness in both the OBD-1 V8 powered cars as well as the OBD-2 V6 cars, therefore since it supported both there are quite a few redundant wires. In the case of your V8 car all of the wiring for the OBD-2 system does nothing but go along for the ride (right down to the scan tool port under the dash which doesn't connect to the engine or ECU!).

As I said, nothing that you can't work through you just need to be aware that some things are different. You might try pinging "frankeeski"; if memory serves he used a '94 or '95 donor and could probably tip you off on some of the things he encountered and how he dealt with them.

Cheers,
Jeff

[MPTech]

If you are buying the base kit, I'm pretty sure it doesn't come with a driveshaft.
I have a similar style tranny with the longer input shaft and bell housing, I installed it in the car then took my measurements to a driveshaft shop and had them shorten a donor shaft and install all new u-joints. One nice thing about my tranny (and I think it may be the same, but you can check yours) the clutch fork is a little longer and the leverage is better. (I'd also suggest the S10 mid-shift mod and an MGW short-throw shifter. My shifting is very smooth and positive).

As for the wiring, I bought a Painless Wiring system and a dieted engine harness from Mustang Medic (on the other forum), very happy with this route.

Good Luck, the engine sounds great!

[MPTech]

You need one of these now.........


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99C28Z38CEc&feature=youtu.be

[Avalanche325]

I would specifically stay away from a 94 / 95. You will have a transmisssion that is a bit of an orphan, making for limited bellhousing and clutch choices. If you ever change or upgrade, you will be changing everything between the flywheel and differential.

Make the choice of what type of engine you want. A SBF, modular, or Coyote will give the car a different personality. Then target a donor from there.

I knew that I wanted an old school engine with a carb. I originally looked at 94 / 95 thinking that they were the newest with the Windsor engine. Then I found out about the transmission. I then started looking at Fox bodies. At least around here they are either expensive or total rags. After some research and watching what was around, I scrapped the donor idea. I am very very glad that I did. I have a brand new car sitting in my garage. I can promise you this. You do NOT want a car with 20 year old wiring.

If you have an inside scoop on getting a wreck, a donor may work. I enquired at my local Mustang junk yard. It was cheaper to buy a road worthy car.

[Brada]

I looked for the Painless wiring harness for a' 94 and couldn't find a listing in the Summit Catalog? Any way, going down to FFR this Friday and order the MK4 kit. Can't wait to get started. Cleaning up the garage over the next couple weeks to get ready...

[MPTech]

I bought a Painless Wiring harness 18 Circuit Universal Harness PN 10202, Mustang Medic dieted wire harness ’93 Mustang, and a set of Weather-pack connectors. That should give you all the wiring and connectors you'll need. The Mustang Medic harness contains all of the OEM engine connectors. (You will need the donor motor computer)

btw, can I assume you are buying the base kit? what options?

[Brada]

Yes, buying the base kit with powder coated frame, cut outs, 302 ceramic headers, stainless side pipes, steering rack adapter for '94, Auto Meter gauge package, wind wings, leather steering wheel, chrome roll bar, hood hinge kit, SS braided brake lines, and the heater /defrost kit. Maybe the wiring harness if they have it?

[Brada]

Did you get the wiring harnesses and connectors at FFR?

[Jeff Kleiner]

Brad,
I strongly encourage you (I mean really, REALLY, REALLY!) to go for the 3 link rear. With the 50/50 sale it's $700 which is a bargain. That will be some of the best $700 you can spend on the car. Forego the blingy stuff like stainless pipes and chrome roll bar right now if you have to and add them later. Do the 3 link now and get the "bones" of the car right from the beginning.

RE: Wiring, I've built roadsters with wire dieted donor harnesses, the Ron Francis/FFR harness and one from "Mustang Medic" Chuck Field. Chuck does a great job, sends lots of documentation, will add or delete circuits and make custom mods to suit your needs. It's about as close to plug and play as you can get and his prices are more than fair. He's always got harnesses for sale on the other forum; just go there and search his "Mustang Medic" user name then send him a PM or e-mail him at mustang-medic@hotmail.com

Cheers,
Jeff

[CraigS]

The problem you had looking up a harness for a 94 is kind of normal for those years. Looking for alt and pump mounts, pulleys, water pumps and the like it is quite common. Many of the application charts go 79-93 and then 96 and later. They only made that configuration for two years so many of the aftermarket people just skip over it. It isn't worth it to them to tool up for something that only fits two model years. You can work around it if you get a really screaming deal on a 94-95 but those years add some frustration.

[MPTech]

Ping Wibby on the other forum (I don't know if he's over here too).
I believe he is running a 94/95 and can probably help you, he's a mechanical genius and his car is beautiful.

[Brada]

Excuse my ignorance, but what other forum (to ping Wibby)?

[Brada]

Not sure I'm getting a screaming deal or not, but the Mustang GT has new cobra billit rims w/ Nitto tires, FRR 3:55 rear end, and he just put. $3800 bucks into the top end (heads,intake,injectors,etc) of the 302 last winter to make around 365 hp. Plus the car is in very good condition except for the convertible top for around $5K. Seems like my best option around here? And I've looked at a few...

[Brada]

Why the 3 link over the 4, again, I'm no expert on Mustangs...

[Brada]

Other forum?

[edwardb]

Other forum?

FFCars.com

Has been around a lot longer than this one, so lots of history. Plus generally I think still has more traffic. Tons of great information. I visit both.

[edwardb]

Why the 3 link over the 4, again, I'm no expert on Mustangs...

The 3 link setup, in general, rides and handles better than the 4 link. The 4 link setup is generally stronger and may be better for hard straight ahead launches. But there is a binding issue with the geometry of the 4 link that can happen during certain more extreme handing conditions. For normal street driving it may never show up. The 4 link donor set up is generally considered about the poorest setup for these cars. Most either avoid it or get away from it as quickly as possible. The 4 link setup with aftermarket links and coilovers is a big improvement from the donor setup. But 3 link is much better and probably the most widely used and considered another big improvement.

[frankeeski]

Brada, I used a 94 Mustang GT for my donor and have no regrets what so ever. My goal was to have a driving car for under 20K (no paint of course) and I did that. My long term goal was to upgrade and update the car over time. This has served me well as most of the projects I have done on the car upgrade wise are weekend or two projects. I can then have the car back on the road and spend weekends with the group. If you have any specific questions regarding using a 94/95 mustang as a donor just let me know. I'd be glad to help. The main things that are different are as stated; the engine wiring harness, the rear axle width, the front engine timing cover, the longer input shaft on the trans and front engine timing cover & water pump. It does use the same driveshaft for the t-5 trans available from FFR.

[Brada]

Ok, I did sign up for it but I'm not able to respond to any threads, I have tried several times to get this problem fixed buy no replay from the forum moderator? Maybe I should try opening another account? Not sure.....

[Brada]

Great, thank you Frank, I'm sure I'll have lots of questions.
The immediate concerns are the front dress issues. Can I get past this by simply swapping to the '93 pulleys? If so, that's not to bad, it will allow me to get the 1993 nice looking under drive pulleys.
FFR says I will need to cut their driveshaft ($249 plus alteration) so wouldn't I be better off cutting down the donor car's?
Also I thought the wider rear end started in 96 with the 4.6, but no. It starts in 94 with the new body? This rear end has new ford racing 3;55 gears already...
It may not be an issue for me as I plan to use the new Cobra billet wheels and tires that are already on the car. Not sure if they will stick out too far or not.....

[skullandbones]

I have a 95 Cobra diff and Cobra R 9 inch wheels and Nitto NT450 275/50 17 (10 inches of tread). The setup on your donor should work. I have some extra room still on the MKIII. You can also retrofit with different (shorter) axles later if you want a wider wheel/tire combo.

I agree with you about the drive shaft. I spent less than the $249 with a donor shaft and it was completely rebuilt, new yoke and balanced.

As suggested: get the 3 link if you can with the 50/50 sale. You will get the cheapest and best bang for your buck with it and will never be able to retrofit it as easily and economically.

WEK

[frankeeski]

Great, thank you Frank, I'm sure I'll have lots of questions.
The immediate concerns are the front dress issues. Can I get past this by simply swapping to the '93 pulleys? If so, that's not to bad, it will allow me to get the 1993 nice looking under drive pulleys.
FFR says I will need to cut their driveshaft ($249 plus alteration) so wouldn't I be better off cutting down the donor car's?
Also I thought the wider rear end started in 96 with the 4.6, but no. It starts in 94 with the new body? This rear end has new ford racing 3;55 gears already...
It may not be an issue for me as I plan to use the new Cobra billet wheels and tires that are already on the car. Not sure if they will stick out too far or not.....
You can not simply change pulleys. The timing cover, water pump amd brackets are all different from the 93 and before. Also, I don't know who you talked to at FFR but they are wrong about the driveshaft. They only sell one 28 spline driveshaft for the T-5/302 combination and it fits all. http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/roadster-28-spline-drive-shaft/ I used the length given in the build manual, which in my manual was the same for both 93 and before and the 94/95. I'll check tonight when I get home and if I'm right I'll scan the picture in the manual and post it here. Regardless. Mike Forte http://www.fortesparts.com/product_info.php?products_id=2981 also sells driveshafts and can make any custom length you would need. Tires and wheels can be adjusted to make the rear end work or you could do what I did.http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13285-Fender-Flares&highlight=fender+flares

[Brada]

Hey Jeff,
I took your advise and got the 3 link!
I went down to FFR yesterday and ordered the kit. I also picked up and drove home the donor car last night on hype way back. I'm pretty excited! Going to start dismantling the donor on Sunday.....
Brad

[Jeff Kleiner]

Also I thought the wider rear end started in 96 with the 4.6, but no. It starts in 94 with the new body? This rear end has new ford racing 3;55 gears already...
It may not be an issue for me as I plan to use the new Cobra billet wheels and tires that are already on the car. Not sure if they will stick out too far or not.....

The rear end got wider in '94 however all of the extra length is outside of the housing on the axle shafts themselves (until '99 when the housing was made wider). Depending on what you find with your wheel/tire combination if necessary you can bring it to Fox width by changing the axles and using caliper relocating brackets from Richard Oben at North Racecars:

http://www.northracecars.com/Brakes.html

Cheers,
Jeff

[MPTech]

Some good '94 info here:
MAF installation from '94 donor (http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/417897-maf-installation-94-donor.html)