Problems lining up the header pipe outside of the body

[3D FFR]

We just noticed the other day that the header is really high on the driver side compared to the passenger side of the car. I found a few older posts with the builders having the same problem. We tried to rotate the motor by loosening the motor mounts and rotating the engine a bit so it would lean more, but we found that the mount on the passenger side is already as high as it would allow the engine to move, stopping the other side from rotating down any. I am stuck for ideas, since I had Whitby install the motor, which all in all it looks amazing and starts right up. Beyond that I am out of ideas and I need help on how to fix this. Thanks!


Passenger Side <- | -> Driver Side
http://3dautosports.com/photos/ffr/exhaust/exhaust_locations.jpg (http://3dautosports.com/photos/ffr/exhaust/)

[stevem]

Don't know what type of motor/ mounts you have but I had to remove a locating tab on the engine mount on my 306 with ffr supplied mounts to get the headers level.

[OVCobra]

Unfortunately this appears far more common than one would hope or expect...I am assuming that you have a short deck windsor (302 based) engine. Overall it appears to be an issue with the drivers's side header....the angle at the header mounting plate (to motor) is too "flat", about 7° as compared to the passenger side. There seems to be 3 basic methods to address it;
1) cut and re-weld the the tubes on the driver side header (best solution in my opinion)
2) install a wedge plate between the head and header mounting plate (I am trying this, greater chance of header leaks but I just can't bring myself to cut the header)
3) cut the tabs off the motor mounts and tilt the motor to drop the driver side header (and raise the passenger side header). If you do this, likely have to cut the body cut-outs on both sides or install wedge plates at the header collector flanges (both sides) to tilt the side pipes down to exit the existing cut-outs.

it is rather frustrating, and dissappointing, to see this kind of "flaw" in what is otherwise a well engineered kit. I cannot speak to the reason(s) this problem continues to exist but it seems that with the moves to the modular and now Coyote motor options, the Windsor is kind of forgotten.

Good luck,

Dave

[CraigS]

Loosen the nuts on the bottom of the motor mounts. Put a jack under the low side and jack it up until the engine shifts. You can also stick a long pipe or prybar in the low side and pick up to get it to shift. Some times this will get the pipes closer to even. Research your motor mounts vs others that will lower the engine here and the other forum. Once it is as low and as even as possible open up the cutouts w/ a drum sander on a drill. You can also gain a little bit by using wedges from Breeze to angle the side pipe. Unfortunately the distance from the 4 bolt flange to the bdy isn't long enough for this to be a big help.
http://www.breezeautomotive.com/home.php?cat_id=26

[edwardb]

Both of my builds (Mk3 and Mk4) with SBF and Energy Suspension polyurethane engine and transmission mounts required some work to get the headers to line up. The engine and motor mounts are a tight fit into the chassis, and it's really easy for it to be wedged in place and not exactly level or lining up. In my case, both required the engine mount slot on the passenger side to be lengthened up about 1/8 inch to get really close. Easy to do with a die grinder. With the pin in the motor mount against the top of this raised slot, but sides were at the same height. On my Mk3, I added the slot after the engine was installed. A pain, but possible by lifting the motor with a shop crane. I put the same extension in my Mk4 before putting in the engine, and turned out was needed.

Couple of important points: It doesn't take much movement at the motor mount to raise/lower the ends of the exhaust headers. 1/8 inch at the motor mounts moves the header a lot. So don't discount the difference this can make, with or without making the slot longer. I bolted the headers in place, and then with the motor mounts loosened, carefully raised the end of the low side with a floor jack under the end of the header, then tightened the nuts. You will be surprised how much it moves. Don't worry about the engine being level. It can be off a few degrees either way with no issue and you can't see it and it doesn't hurt anything. Also, measure the height from the tips of the exhaust headers to the ground vs. the body, assuming you have the ride height roughly right and the chassis level. Then adjust the cutouts in the body. They are only approximate from the factory, so don't use them for reference.

I've seen extreme cases where guys have machined a new angle on the headers or even re-welded it at a different angle. Not sure what's happening there, but would treat as a last resort.

[3D FFR]

First off I want to thank you for the great replies and suggestions. But I almost didn't want to reply explaining how I fixed it because basically I did it wrong, and it will make many of you harden car guys cringe. We are moving in about 2 weeks and we are in a very serious "get it done" mode. So I am posting this as how I fixed our header, and I hope you understand. Please do not be too mad at me :)

OK, I don't have many tools for working with metal in my garage, such as a band saw, welder or mill. What I do have a ton of wood working tools since I once was a home contractor. At this point I pulled out my belt sander and all of my 80 grit rolls. My original thought was "I work as an artist, I should have steady enough hands and tools to measure the surface to get the angle I want". I also went to the auto parts store, got a new set of gaskets and I also got the highest end gasket sealant they had.

Before I took the header off I measured how much I needed it to be lowered (1.5in.). I used the edge of my work bench as a gauge to measure my progress. I set the block side of the header on the bench and measured the top distance to the wall. Next I clamped down the header to a saw horse and marked the inside edge with a marker to keep tabs on my progress. Next I took a deep breath and started to grind. Overall it took me about 75 minutes and 2 rolls of paper to get the header where I needed it. While grinding it down, I stopped every so often to check progress on my workbench and checking the levelness with my squares & eyeball. We did a quick test fit and I got it within a 3/32 to the other side. That seemed close enough. We took it off and prepped it with ample sealer on both sides of the gasket. We installed it and started up the engine to check for issues.

I understand that everyone might not be comfortable attempting something like this, but it worked for us.

http://3dautosports.com/photos/ffr/exhaust/IMAG2397s.jpg http://3dautosports.com/photos/ffr/exhaust/IMAG1392s.jpg http://3dautosports.com/photos/ffr/exhaust/IMAG1395s.jpg http://3dautosports.com/photos/ffr/exhaust/IMAG1396s.jpg

Note, you can see me cutting the body here to make room the the exhaust. Which is nearly the same we need to cut the other side.

[skullandbones]

That's pretty brave so you must have some skills with that belt sander. I can't tell you how many things I've screwed up with that tool.

Just one note about the fitment of the headers: you don't have your aluminum "elephant ears" installed so that could actually affect the final position of the opening in the side of the body. Sorry if you have already taken that into account. Just thought I would mention it.

Thanks for sharing. There's more than one way to skin a cat!

WEK

[3D FFR]

That's pretty brave so you must have some skills with that belt sander. I can't tell you how many things I've screwed up with that tool.

Just one note about the fitment of the headers: you don't have your aluminum "elephant ears" installed so that could actually affect the final position of the opening in the side of the body. Sorry if you have already taken that into account. Just thought I would mention it.

Thanks for sharing. There's more than one way to skin a cat!

WEKThank you, I wasn't exactly ringing with confidence while doing this task but I am glad it worked. Yeah. I pulled that big panel out to see how much it would lift up on the body and took that into account when I measured the opening. But it would be easy to miss and a good note to add to this thread.

[edwardb]

Grew up in the construction business, so have my share of woodworking tools as well, including a belt sander. Know my way around it too. I do hope this works out for you. What you're describing is usually done in a machine shop with the header fixtured in place. So I agree what you did is pretty brave. Hopefully it will seal up OK and stay that way.

For the record, 1-1/2 inches off at the header end isn't all that much IMO. Less then how much both of my builds were off when the engine was first installed. It would have moved that much by shifting the motor mounts as several of us described. Should you ever need to remove the motor, very likely it won't go back in at exactly the same point and angle because it wedges in place when you drop it in. Then you may want to try shifting it around at the mount.

Continued good luck with your build.

[3D FFR]

You could be right about that, if I have to pull the motor. As of right now the passenger side motor mount is pushed up as high as it can go, which should be a great reference point when I put the engine back in.

[michael everson]

That's exactly what I did except on a milling machine. I changed the angle by 5.5 degrees. No amount of engine moving was going the fix the problem I had. It looked just like yours.
Mike

[frankeeski]

Hey, I applaud you for your courage. I too sometimes find myself knee deep in you know what, take a look at my fender flare thread.That's what it takes sometimes. If you stand around waiting for some great revelation that you know will never come, nothing gets done. So jump in head first and see what happens. Good Job!

[3D FFR]

This sums up our attack plan :)
http://www.prosportstickers.com/product_images/x/git_r_done_oval_decal__65486.jpg