818 FIA Fuel Cell Design/Quote

[FFRSpec72]

So I have a design and quote from Harmon Racing Cells, the cost is about $1300-$1400

Anything can be changed but this is what Harmon came up with. Harmon said that FIA standards the fuel cell needs to be strapped in which is a better option. They can do the tabs but if they are off by any degree it could be more work to mount. The sender and pump are in one plate, but depending on the size of the pump we need Harmon might have to make a special plate and mount it separately as well as the sender. The increased cost about $100. No charge just to drop the pump into the plate, but if there are any other parts Harmon would need would increase the cost. Most parts are small and minimal cost. The fill is in the corner, with the plates we need it to be about 1 1/2 from the edge, so what we can do is angle it to that corner. Now on the upside. the price If we place an order of 5 at once Harmon can knock off 10%. I didn't have the fill size (anyone know this?) and I would need to send a pump so Harmon can get the plate right.

I would want to add a collector to this.

The reason why this is only 36" long is to make room for the fire bottle as the area that the fuel cell sits in seems to be perfect for fire system, if we want we can make this longer. Please let me know if you have comments and if you are interested ?

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[D Clary]

Very interested keep me in the loop when ordering comes around. Do not have a kit until June so I have time. Thanks DC

[Doowop]

cool. Thanks. what's the capacity,and how do the dimensions compare with the stock tank? I am assuming that there is foam in it? I was thinking to do an external pump and have a double pick up instead, i in each corner.

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm guessing it's a 12 gallon?
That's a great price for an FIA rated cell, probably $300 less than a Fuel Safe or ATL FIA cell.
Is this can aluminum? Their website doesn't really say, if it's aluminum then the price is really great. If it's steel I'd like to know the cost to upgrade to aluminum.
And their warranty at 7 years is much better than the competition.
I'd probably get a surge tank/ collector w/Bosch pump to add into it. I see Harmon has collectors, I'd be looking to add the 3 valve 1 gallon. I just ordered one for another car, the ATL and Fuel Safe ones are very expensive if you include a pump, almost $1,000 with a Bosch pump. Just Google Fuel Safe ST100HPB-B and you'll see what I mean.
Good Work!

[Santiago]

Agreed - great price! I had my eye on Harmon for a while, so nice to see things are in-line with their website prices. This seemed like a 12-gallon cell, which would be prefect for me. And I would have gone with straps anyway, so no concerns there.

I think ATL only charges $100 to upgrade to an aluminum tank, so even if this one isn't aluminum it shouldn't be much more for that option.

My questions:
1. What kind of pump is going to be used as the standard for fitment? I don't imagine lots of R-folks are using the OEM Subie pump or are they?
2. Do we have a price list of options? I would prefer a surge tank over a standard duck-foot type collector.
3. Do you know (did they say) if they offer a bladder that is e85 compatible?

Thanks for doing the leg-work on this Tony.

Best,
-j

[FFRSpec72]

cool. Thanks. what's the capacity,and how do the dimensions compare with the stock tank? I am assuming that there is foam in it? I was thinking to do an external pump and have a double pick up instead, i in each corner.

Yes there is foam included in the bladder price

[FFRSpec72]

So I will talk to them on Monday. I will find out the following:

1. Is this an aluminum tank, if not what is the price increase?
2. What is the price of a collector, does the collector include a surge tank, if not what is the price?
3. What kind of pump is going to be used as the standard for fitment? Would the Aero 340 stealth be sufficient for 300-400 hp? What would be the price
4. Do we have a price list of options?
5. Do you offer a bladder that is e85 compatible?

Anything else?

[Pearldrummer7]

3. What kind of pump is going to be used as the standard for fitment? Would the Aero 340 stealth be sufficient for 300-400 hp? What would be the price


Considering a Walbro 255 is sufficient for those power levels, I assume a 340 lph fuel pump would be more than enough for that. I've heard good things about the Aero 340, as well.

This looks really cool. Definitely interested in knowing the answers to your questions.


Frank

[FFRSpec72]

Considering a Walbro 255 is sufficient for those power levels, I assume a 340 lph fuel pump would be more than enough for that. I've heard good things about the Aero 340, as well.

This looks really cool. Definitely interested in knowing the answers to your questions.


Frank

I asked them to price out the Aeromotive 340 stealth as I think this would meet 90% of the folks needs and then a list of other options folks could use

[longislandwrx]

The DW 300 is also a great pump (already have mine)... When you read about the 340 stealth they really discourage e85 use... very short service intervals.

also wondering about the material and e85 compatibility.

is 12 gallons the capacity including the foam?

thanks!

[Doowop]

so, you guy are set on an in-tank fuel pump? I was thinking that if we were to go with an external, then the cell would be the same for everybody and people could just select the pump they need.

[SixStar]

Odd to hear that about the Stealth 340. My Accord ran solely on E85 for a few years and about 25k miles making 470whp and I never had an issue.

[FFRSpec72]

so, you guy are set on an in-tank fuel pump? I was thinking that if we were to go with an external, then the cell would be the same for everybody and people could just select the pump they need.

That is still an option.

[FFRSpec72]

So I will talk to them on Monday. I will find out the following:

1. Is this an aluminum tank, if not what is the price increase?
2. What is the price of a collector, does the collector include a surge tank, if not what is the price?
3. What kind of pump is going to be used as the standard for fitment? Would the Aero 340 stealth be sufficient for 300-400 hp? What would be the price
4. Do we have a price list of options?
5. Do you offer a bladder that is e85 compatible?
6 Figure we will find a source for straps
7. Final capacity with foam

Anything else?


Here are the answers I got back. So this is like the cell in my challenge car, a aluminum can with FIA bladder, so I will have them price with internal 320 pump and also setup for external pump, both will be the same can, bladder, collector/surge, etc.

1) No, this is a fully custom, FIA certified fuel cell and aluminum enclosure .
2) The collector is itself a surge tank. The pump would drop directly into it.
3) The 340 pump will support the horsepower of these vehicles (usually up to 700HP, though they claim more I wouldn't recommend any more than that) and they are compatible with E85. I've been using the AEM 320 pump which is made from similar parts but used ceramic components that don't burn out if the pump runs dry (though that doesn't much matter for this application). They are a bit cheaper but are the same size as the 340, so whichever you'd prefer. The assembly would include the pump, adapters, wiring inside the cell, return port, vent port, top plate, bottom ring, gasket, and mounting hardware. The pump would suspend from the top plate and would be easily removable without having to pull the cell apart (same as a stock pump is removed from a tank).
4) Can put together a list of additional options that you could order. Depending on how folks want to do this it can either setup a fully racer-ready cell with all the bells and whistles (pump, collector, sender, etc) or supply a basic design that customers can choose what they'd like to add (sender, larger vent, etc). We can also powder coat the cans/hardware if desired.
5) Harmon is still testing it's cells with E85 but all signs point to them being compatible with the fuel, so long as certain precautions are taken. We've had customers that have been using exclusively E85 in the cells for about 5 years now without problem, but if the vehicle will be using it we need to know ahead of time so that the proper hardware is used (for instance a special sender must be used that's compatible with E85).
6) Will do.
7) The final capacity is estimated at 12 gallon accessible, meaning you should be able to pump out between 11-12 gallons.

[David Hodgkins]

Tony, PM sent.

:)

[Bill Waters]

Tony - me, too. PM on its way.

Bill

[Santiago]

Definitely interested and looking forward to their AEM 320 equipped pump price. I'm assuming since the original quote didn't include a price for the collector that we're looking at a price bump for that and obviously the cost of the pump itself.

Q: Does their 10% off deal require all fuel cells to be optioned exactly the same, or just that 5 orders be placed for the basic cell they'd set up for the 818?

[longislandwrx]

Odd to hear that about the Stealth 340. My Accord ran solely on E85 for a few years and about 25k miles making 470whp and I never had an issue.

I have no doubt it would work fine, but it seems like they wanted to put a lot of doom and gloom in there saying if anything went wrong, you're on your own.

From their website:

9.) Q: Can the 340 Stealth Pump be used safely in e85 and how much HP will it support?

A: E85 fuel has become a viable option for street performance enthusiasts in recent years. It has some very significant pros, and equally significant cons, to consider. It does provide higher octane, and lower charge air temperatures, and is especially popular in forced induction applications, permitting more aggressive combinations of boost, compression ratios and tuning. It is also less costly per-gallon than high-octane racing gasoline. That said, fuel usage increases 30-35% to support equal HP, somewhat offsetting the lower cost and requiring the HP rating of all fuel system components, including and especially the HP ratings of the fuel pump and fuel injectors, be reduced by 30-35%.

A crucial consideration regarding whether or not to run E85 is its tendency to rapidly and frequently contaminate and clog/block fuel filters, resulting in significant flow restrictions, which in turn may damage the engine and/or cause premature fuel pump failure. The reasons for filter contamination problems with E85 include:
◦E85 is an alcohol based fuel, and alcohols are hygroscopic (attract and absorb water from the atmosphere), which can accumulate in and clog fine filter elements.
◦E85 is an agriculturally produced fuel and, being a byproduct of plant material, there have been indications some of this “bio-mass” can accumulate in, and clog fuel filters.
◦E85 has very strong solvent properties, like many alcohol based liquids, which will act to strip accumulated debris and residues from transport and storage containers, and the inside of fuel tanks and fuel lines, which in turn accumulate in, and clog fuel filters.

Aeromotive has conducted extensive testing of the 340 Stealth Pump in E85 fuel, achieving 1,000 plus run hours of service life operating at 60 PSI and 13.5 Volts. In testing, it was found a filter service interval that gave good fuel pump service life required a new, down-stream filter be installed every 10 run-hours. It is vital to understand that a blocked filter creates severe flow restriction of pump output, building excessively high operating pressure between the pump and the contaminated element. If the Stealth 340 is allowed to run in this environment, operating pressures between pump and filter can exceed 90 PSI, creating extreme current draw and reduced cooling flow, resulting in rapid failure of the fuel pump motor assembly.

WARNING: If you plan to run E85 fuel you must be prepared to install proper filtration, and maintain it as frequently as every 10 run-hours. If not, Aeromotive does NOT recommend you the use of E85 with the 340 Stealth Fuel Pump. Aeromotive’s new product warranty assures the purchaser their 340 Stealth Pump will be free from defects in material and workmanship for one year from the date of purchase. Fuel pump failure caused by clogged/blocked fuel filters is not the result of any defect in the pump itself, and is not covered under this warranty.

For a detailed look at post-pump filter options and what a good one should be like, please see Aeromotive Tech Bulletin: Post-Pump Fuel Filtration TB-102 here:

http://aeromotiveinc.com/2010/05/post-pump-fuel-filtration/

For a specific example of the issues related to a clogged post-pump filter, please take a moment to see the Case History File embedded in TB-102 here:

http://aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/TB-102-Case-File.pdf



so yes you can run it, if you are willing to change your filter every 2 weeks, otherwise :X
when I spoke to DW the response was more like... yeah if it breaks we replace.

[Doowop]

anybody knows how the dimensions are compared to the stock tank?

[FFRSpec72]

As you know I have been working with Harmon Racing Cells on Fuel Cell for the 818, here are the 2 designs, the first design is the fuel cell without the fuel pump (put the -AN8 pick up in its location) and uses an external fuel pump of your choice, the second fuel cell design uses an internal pump, it is currently specified as a AEM 320, both use a custom collector/surge to fit the design of the cell. These are aluminum cans that are even tapered with a matching FIA certified bladder, sender check valves, return, fill neck, etc. The cell is designed to hold between 11 and 12 gallons of fuel that can be pumped. I think these 2 designs should meet the needs of most of the racers. I'm not a vendor, I'm not the manufacturer, I'm just a racer that needs a fuel cell and since FFR has elected not to help us out I have decided to try to get the folks that need a fuel cell an option to get one designed for the 818. The fuel cell is also designed to leave room for a fire bottle and/or external fuel pump in the same location of the existing gas tank.

The questions and suggestion in previous messages should be addressed with these designs.

I'm not sure on the rules for a group buy but Harmon agreed to at least a 10% discount if we can get 5+ folks to order a fuel cell (with or without pump). I'm willing to the test fitting etc. and make sure of the quality etc. I hope I have not violated any forum rule here, I have the estimated prices and cost break down for each design (retail) but don't know if I can post them.

27339

[FFRSpec72]

anybody knows how the dimensions are compared to the stock tank?

The fuel cell was designed to be thinner (to allow folks that need more leg room to push the firewall back an inch or 2, the fuel cell was also not as long, this was to leave room for a fire bottle and/or external fuel pump and anything else you can fit in 10"

[FFRSpec72]

I have sent the final details to the folks that have asked for them, if you need them you can send me an email Nadalin@prodigy.net. I should have a cell in 2-3 weeks for test fit and tweeking.

[Doowop]

that's awesome news!! thanks again for the work.

[FFRSpec72]

Here is the final design we ended with, it holds 11 gal of pumpable fuel, leaves 7" of space on either side (for fire bottle or other stuff, run wires, tubing, etc.) and allows you to push the seat back 4.5", complete with in tank Aero 340 pump, collector, surge control, foam and just around $1900

27969

[longislandwrx]

That's pretty awesome. So $1750 or so with no pump? This will go on my list for next year!

[FFRSpec72]

That's pretty awesome. So $1750 or so with no pump? This will go on my list for next year!

I think that the pump and plumbing of the pump was $350, but if you get 5+ people to order it would drop the price 10-15% and then you would get a fully ready fuel cell for ~$1700 and you can keep your pump as a backup pump. I know that some folks will still have issues as they need more room and can't run any tank behind the seat but there are not many more places to put a tank, but for me this works.

[Santiago]

Tony, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't certification on the bladder good for 5 years? I'm asking because I wonder if it makes sense for me to get in on a 5+ order early or to wait until closer to the time my 818R will actually hit the track. Seems like I should be waiting, no?

Thoughts welcome.

Best,
-j

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, correct me if I'm wrong but isn't certification on the bladder good for 5 years? I'm asking because I wonder if it makes sense for me to get in on a 5+ order early or to wait until closer to the time my 818R will actually hit the track. Seems like I should be waiting, no?

Thoughts welcome.

Best,
-j

Some organizations have a rule on fuel cells others don't, NASA has a rule for bladder certification and I have to fill out the form every year and they limit the bladder usage to 5 years from date of manufacturing of the bladder. So you should wait as long as you can if the organization has a rule. The other league I run in has no rule on bladder certification age rule so I can run the same bladder as long as I want, they also have no rule on having to wear a HANS device, so go figure.

[Santiago]

Thank you. Looks like I'll be waiting then...the build is going to take some time... :rolleyes:

[Bill Waters]

Tony, are you collecting the list of folks wanting to participate with the group order? If so, sign me up. Please advise as to next steps. Thanks for your work on this.

Bill

[Doowop]

Thanks Tony. I have a couple questions:
1- Is the 4.5" of extra seat space compared to the existing FFR tank or the new design coming soon, if not out yet? Basically, I don't want to install a tank and have to modify a bunch of stuff including seat mount later when I get the fuel cell, but I also do not want to have to order the fuel cell now and have the bladder expiring sooner because the built took a while.
2- How is the mounting? If straps, we will need to leave a couple inches between the tank and the firewall to mount the straps to the floor or do you see another way to do it?

[FFRSpec72]

Thanks Tony. I have a couple questions:
1- Is the 4.5" of extra seat space compared to the existing FFR tank or the new design coming soon, if not out yet? Basically, I don't want to install a tank and have to modify a bunch of stuff including seat mount later when I get the fuel cell, but I also do not want to have to order the fuel cell now and have the bladder expiring sooner because the built took a while.
2- How is the mounting? If straps, we will need to leave a couple inches between the tank and the firewall to mount the straps to the floor or do you see another way to do it?

(1) I don't know what FFR has in plan for next gen gas tank. So the current fuel tank area (tray) is 11" wide now and the firewall is designed to use all that 11". The fuel cell is 6.5" wide, so you can gain 4.5" as you can now push the firewall back 4.5" and thus push the seat back 4.5". One thing to remember is that a 20 degree layback seat take up about 8" from bottom of seat corner to 90 degree back, a 10 degree layback only takes up about 4.5" so even more leg room. Here is a quick look at the fuel cell behind the firewall and you can see the dimensions an the angle that the firewall has to be at to get maximum leg room.

(2) Mounting is by strap as most rules require. The back of the fuel cell will go flat up against the rear frame, the straps will be bolted to the bars on the rear frame and then over the tank and to the floor in front of the fuel cell (in the current tray for the fuel tank, so no room is taken up with the straps.

The tank is about 3280 cubic inches in volume and thus it can hold about 13 gals but pumpable fuel will be about 11.5 gals before you get into issues of slosh and no pickup. The bladder is replaceable. The outside of cell (aluminum) is just a can, it holds the bladder (which is in the shape of the can). The top and angled front side of fuel cell will be a shoe box lid and this this is how the bladder is replaced (you would take the top/side off and pull bladder out), the back of the bladder will have an access plate to get to the collector. The pump will be serviced through the top plate in the bladder. The can will just have cutouts for the plates that are attached to bladder.

Hope this explains some things


28018

[Bill Waters]

Tony - please see my post (# 30 above).

Thanks,

Bill

[FFRSpec72]

Tony - please see my post (# 30 above).

Thanks,

Bill

Harmon is building the 1st cell now and I should have it in 10 days or so if all goes as planed. If all goes as planned then Harmon will offer this design and then we can talk to Dave H. about organizing a group buy for folks that may be interested as this should bring the cost down to around $1700.

Harmon is going to a new type of pump electrical connector (much like the centroid sender) so that should help wiring, There are a few items left to sort out as they build sort the placement of plates and access panels out.

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Tony

Bill

[Bill Waters]

Hi, Tony; any new info on the cell?

Thanks,
Bill

[FFRSpec72]

Hi, Tony; any new info on the cell?

Thanks,
Bill

So the prototype should ship to me this week, so once I have it I will post some pics and thoughts.

[Bill Waters]

Thanks, Tony.

Bill

[FFRSpec72]

Sorry for the delay, been busy with my challenge car as it's race season. The 818 Harmon Racing FIA Fuel cell is here, very nice, well made. Stock tank weighs 30lbs w/o sender and fuel pump. The Harmon 818 FIA Fuel cell weighs in at 20.5lbs with sender and fuel pump. It is capable of 12 pumpable gallons of fuel an best of all FIA certified.

Here is fuel cell sitting in in the tray. I don't have all the rear engine firewall on yet, jut placed the center piece in place, the 2 sides I have not yet place on the car. This give me 4.5" more for seat. The FFR supplied rear firewall has been bent at new angles (not shown yet)

30965 30966


Here are some additional shots of the filler neck (angled to take stock side filler assemble), vent AN fitting and pump outlet AN fitting. Also you can see the room I left for the fire tank as it will also go next to fuel cell.

30967 30968 30969 30970


and here are the mounting straps (just placed there, not mounted)

30971

[fact5racer]

What r u using for a seat and how much does this interfere with it's movement towards the firewall?

[fact5racer]

If they made the tank just wide enough to be placed only on the passenger side and the center up until it would interfere with the driver's seat I wonder how much fuel that would carry?

[FFRSpec72]

I'm using a Ultrashield Pro Rally seat with 10 degree layback, so that saves me like 4" over a standard 20 degree layback seat. The cell and firewall take up 6 and 3/4" and gives me back 4.5" that I can move the seat back and the 10 degrees layback give me an additional 4" before the seatback would touch the rear FFR firewall.

[Bill Waters]

Thanks for the follow-up, Tony. Did the new fuel cell necessitate the modification to the FFR-supplied rear firewall, or was that done for another reason such as seat fitment?


EDit: you may have just answered the question while I was typing it!

[FFRSpec72]

it was done to get me the additional 4.5 inches, as the rear FFR firewall hugs the Harmon fuel cell now and there is no room between the FFR rear firewall and the Harmon fuel cell, if you don't need he extra 4.5" then no need to rebend the FFR rear firewall.

[Bill Waters]

Hard to know whether I'll need the additional room. I'm about 6'; how tall are you?

[FFRSpec72]

Hard to know whether I'll need the additional room. I'm about 6'; how tall are you?

i'm 6' 170lbs and I just want al the room I can get in case I have other drivers for like enduros

[Doowop]

Very cool. Do you know the price for a new bladder? Thanks.

[Sgt.Gator]

Very Nice! Sorry I missed getting together a couple of weeks ago when we were racing at Pacific. I really want to see this build in person! Hope to see you again at ORP July 25-27.

[FFRSpec72]

Very cool. Do you know the price for a new bladder? Thanks.

Recertification is free. 619.97 for a new bladder, but you may need a new collector as well (which I don't think you would after only 7 years), though I don't know if that will still be the price 7 years from now. Harmon has some new vendors that should help keep the current prices consistent for the next few years, but since most of the fuel cell is made from petroleum byproducts if the price of oil goes up considerably then so too will the cells.

[Doowop]

Tony, I'm not sure what re-certification means on a fuel cell. Don't you have to change the bladder when it expires or they can just recert it?

[FFRSpec72]

Some bodies require bladder replacement after a given number of years no matter what. FIA certification is good for 7 years, after 7 year you have to have the cell tested and recertified. Bladder replacement is different than certification but may happen at same time. You must always have A certified fuel cell.

[Wayne Presley]

Why didn't you have the tank made full width?
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=30965&d=1404607276

[C.Plavan]

I think he wanted to put his fire bottle on the side behind the firewall.

Tony- You might get some flak from tech. They will want to "See" the fire bottle to verify its in the "Green" or the C02 cartridge is not pierced. It would be easy to make a little door as long a a passenger seat is not in there.

[FFRSpec72]

I think he wanted to put his fire bottle on the side behind the firewall.

Tony- You might get some flak from tech. They will want to "See" the fire bottle to verify its in the "Green" or the C02 cartridge is not pierced. It would be easy to make a little door as long a a passenger seat is not in there.

Correct, that is where my fire system will go, there will be an access panel there for inspection, there is like 7" space left.

[FFRSpec72]

So I installed the lower portion of the FFR rear firewall and also put in my seat floors (1/8" steel) and set the seat in the car (Ultrashield Pro Rally) and I get the exact same leg room I get in my challenge car, which is 49" from front aluminum bulkhead to seat back. Here are some picks of the length (add 3.5" for length of tape measure), my legs are flat out. I'm 6 foot and my inseam is 32"
31271 31272 31273

Also here is the fuel cell with rear FFR firewall

31274 31275

[Sgt.Gator]

How are you going to put a back brace on the seat?

Will you be at ORP this weekend?

[FFRSpec72]

How are you going to put a back brace on the seat?

Will you be at ORP this weekend?

So I don't yet have the seat height set, I want to put the brace somewhere just below my shoulder blades and it looks like I may be able to use the cross bar on the rear firewall if not than I will have to weld in a new vertical bar from the cross bar to the top bar (base of roll hoop)

I will not be at ORP but Steve in the yellow challenge car will be as I'm travelling. I will be at PIR the following week

[Dave Wiedman]

So what was the final price for the fuel cell and can they be purchased? Are there any plans for a group buy?

[FFRSpec72]

So what was the final price for the fuel cell and can they be purchased? Are there any plans for a group buy?

My final price was around $1950 with shipping and mounting straps, if you can get 5+ people you should save around 15%.