Ssssly 818 buildup thread

[ssssly]

How is everyone this evening?

Allow me to introduce myself.

I am Brooker.

I am in the Air Force and have been stationed in Okinawa for the last 7 years. I have been building and racing Subarus here in Japan for about the last 5 years. And recently purchased my 818S kit, due for delivery in August.

I am moving to Omaha, Nebraska this week and I am bringing a ton of JDM Subaru parts back with me. Both for my 818 donor and to rebuild my 05 STI spec C daily driver.

I am an experienced engine builder and EFI tuner for most Japanese and several European cars. And I'm actually rather excited to get back to the states and get my hands on the Gen IV LS engines. They are pretty much unobtanium in Asia.

My current plans for my 818 are a relatively stock build for the first round, minus the engine. I have a 2.2l EJ207 stroker that I built to put in my spec C before I got orders to Omaha. Planning on pairing that up with a Borg Warner 7163 to see if its possible to get ~500hp to the ground.

Going to try it with 9" rears first and see if the tires will stay hooked up in gear changes. If not it will be time for 10" and some custom rear fenders and trailing arms. If it's still too much I'll swap the turbo out for a Garett gt3071R and drop the HP a bit.

Also gonna try it with the a 02 5spd with a helical front diff and stock gears. Basically to see if the stock tranny can hold up to decent HP numbers. If not it will be time for some PPG gears.

Pretty much everything else I'm going to build stock and see where that gets me. I'll then make any changes during the rebuild over next winter.

Either way, I just want to benefit the community however I can with my Subaru knowledge and learn as much as possible from the experienced 818 and other kit builders.

Be well and part porn to follow.

[ssssly]

My spec C before the teardown.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8111/8540160615_32b6a8c214_c.jpg

After the teardown.

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[ssssly]

2.2l pics

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2403/13189344254_db6041acb2_c.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2403/13189344254_db6041acb2_c.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2856/13189350194_c5cf859dd5_c.jpg

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http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7390/13189340204_15b6343d75_c.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3803/11817647724_63429eed9d_c.jpg

[gwarden]

Nice looking engine
Welcome to the forum and welcome back to the states soon

[ssssly]

Custom GT 3071R

Is a spec C vf34 cold side, a s204 twin scroll hot side, with billet Garrett x3071R CHRA.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7084/13189366873_9b6e4ffcbc_c.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3709/13189259125_71dd94fc77_c.jpg

[ssssly]

And some pics of what you don't want your engine to look like. Otherwise know as, "Why you don't put aftermarket cold air intakes, downpipes and manual boost controllers on a Subaru without retuning your AFR, load and wastegate duty cycle tables tables." This was an engine run on a 3" bell mouth down pipe, HKS intake, and halman MBC (+5 psi from stock). Friend of the owner told him it was good to go that way.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2890/11646261963_4705885776_c.jpg

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2877/11645988115_7587f9cf08_c.jpg

Engine knocked so bad it squeezed the bearing out like play dough.

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2874/11646360924_d75546a8d3_c.jpg

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3814/11646339944_919f8155a1_c.jpg

[ssssly]

Nice looking engine
Welcome to the forum and welcome back to the states soon

Thank you much.

[longislandwrx]

And some pics of what you don't want your engine to look like. Otherwise know as, "Why you don't put aftermarket cold air intakes, downpipes and manual boost controllers on a Subaru without retuning your AFR, load and wastegate duty cycle tables tables." This was an engine run on a 3" bell mouth down pipe, HKS intake, and halman MBC (+5 psi from stock). Friend of the owner told him it was good to go that way.


HAHA how long did he have sparkly unicorn fairy oil before he knew something was wrong?

I got a little sick to my stomach that you stripped such a mint car. I guess it wasn't too far from the 10yr mark.

Do you have shells ready to go in the states?

[ssssly]

Guessing he figured something was wrong right after it seized.

Haven't found a shell yet. Couple of feelers in TX and CO but I would really like to find something closer to Omaha.

And I still haven't decide on a RHD or LHD rebuild.

[bil1024]

Welcome to the family! Keep us posted on the build

[Bob_n_Cincy]

And I still haven't decide on a RHD or LHD rebuild.
If you are racing only, go with a center seat. Pretty easy to do in the 818 without a engine in the way of the steering column.
Thanks for the "WHAT NOT TO DO"
Welcome home soon.
Bob

[Wayne Presley]

Guessing he figured something was wrong right after it seized.

Haven't found a shell yet. Couple of feelers in TX and CO but I would really like to find something closer to Omaha.

And I still haven't decide on a RHD or LHD rebuild.

What shell are you looking for?

[ssssly]

I'm looking for an 02-07 bare WRB shell.

The 818 will be LHD.

Debating building a RHD WRX since I have all the parts for 3 RHD conversions.

[Wayne Presley]

I have some that you can pick from

[Mitch Wright]

Welcome home and thank you for your service.

[ssssly]

I have some that you can pick from

Where are you located at?

Pm me info on what you have.

[ssssly]

Been super busy with my move back to the states.

Finally got moved into my house. Making headway on getting the garage set up.

And just confirmed that my kit will be done August 9th.

Now just to make the shipping arrangements and get to building.

Planning on doing time lapses for all the build days and videos for any custom work or problem areas.

Definitely looking forward to digging into this project.

[ssssly]

Its Alive! (In my best frankenstein voice)

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/q77/s720x720/10476274_10203456673011305_3499866221980577551_n.j pg

[ssssly]

Final payment made. Shipment arranged. 3 week countdown.

[ssssly]

Got the call from the Stewart transport driver.

Should be in the garage on the 28th.

[cheebs127]

I look forward to the build progress pics. I cant believe one is being build so close to me. I'm stationed at Offutt as well but Im not planning on building one until I move back to the east coast next year.

[68GT500MAN]

Great photo's so far and welcome back to the states.
Doug

[ssssly]

I look forward to the build progress pics. I cant believe one is being build so close to me. I'm stationed at Offutt as well but Im not planning on building one until I move back to the east coast next year.

If you want to come turn some wrenches drop me a line.

I live up in Dundee.

[ssssly]

Car is in the garage.

And I have a 4 day weekend.

Good times ahead.

[Brando]

Right on, congrats on your kits arrival. What a great feeling to get a package of that magnitude.
Super lucky you get to kick of your build with a 4 day weekend!

[ssssly]

Inventory day.

[sponaugle]

Inventory day.

WooHoo!

[ssssly]

Post removed. in the user agreement it states that you must try to work out issue directly with any vendor before posting said issues to the forum.

[freds]

That's disgraceful. I am working on my body parts right now, and am also disappointed in their quality...I've been filling and sanding for days!

BUT YOURS are 10X worse!!!

You must be really disappointed. Wish I could help.

fred

[tmoretta]

I see your panels are red. My white panels from April are near perfect. I wonder if FFR is having trouble making transition to a new color gel.

[RM1SepEx]

My white body from last August looks like his and my powder coating is very similar with "issues" all over

[ssssly]

Yeah, mine was supposed to be white.

They changed it to red and never bothered to tell me.

Just got done talking with my buddy who does body work. $8500 just to fix it and make it look the way it should. And those are friend prices.

I would have been way happier with something that was just ready to paint. Is going to take $7k in labor just to get them paintable. Then $1500 to paint them. Every single panel has to be redone.

I am fuming right now. Especially after their "One year in production" triumph post.

One year in production and they still can't make fiberglas body panels or powder coat a frame.

You'd think after over $2.5million in sales they could figure those things out.

[metalmaker12]

Yeah, mine was supposed to be white.

They changed it to red and never bothered to tell me.

Just got done talking with my buddy who does body work. $8500 just to fix it and make it look the way it should. And those are friend prices.

I would have been way happier with something that was just ready to paint. Is going to take $7k in labor just to get them paintable. Then $1500 to paint them. Every single panel has to be redone.

I am fuming right now. Especially after their "One year in production" triumph post.

One year in production and they still can't make fiberglas body panels or powder coat a frame.

You'd think after over $2.5million in sales they could figure those things out.

I spent a serious amount of time on the body, but 7-8 grand is about right cause if you figure labor and materials it's a deal. I spent 2,500-2,700 to get all the materials and rent the booth, my panels were much worse in spots. Overall they look pretty good, and I did not go to crazy with spray fillers etc.

[Aero STI]

I'm sorry to hear about your issues. I've definitely gone through phases of frustration and disappointment when building my kit stemming from poor quality control on the pat of FFR. I've decided to consider my white panels as temporary. I'll put a little effort in to cleaning up edges here and there, but I'm not going to invest too much time considering the continued mention of the plastic body panels.

I would recommend assembling what you can and get the car to go-kart status ASAP. You'll be much less frustrated after you drive the car. Deal with the body panels when the time comes.

[Brando]

It's really hard to tell by your pictures, but are those exposed pieces?
Sorry to hear about your experience. I was kit 102 and I can't complain, my finished product makes me smile

[flynntuna]

With all the promotion of "no paint" panels you'd think the workmanship would be better. It seems most every build is having the same issues to some degree.

Unless one resigns oneself to a car that looks good from 50ft at 50mph then I guess paint or wrap or dip should be part of the budget.

One day when it's all done hopefully you can look back and laugh.
Or you can look at it this way...

[ssssly]

It's really hard to tell by your pictures, but are those exposed pieces?
Sorry to hear about your experience. I was kit 102 and I can't complain, my finished product makes me smile

Kit 251 and none of the problems are from damage to exposed pieces during shipping.

It is plain and simple shoddy construction. The molds were not prepared properly with releaser. The fiber glass was not laid properly in the molds. The gelcoat was not applied properly. It was removed from the mold before it was fully cured. And too much resin was applied to the backside.

Basically, the people who made the fiberglass parts, don't know how to make fiberglass parts. A 5 min youtube tutorial could have resulted in higher quality manufacturing.

And I am shocked that 250 people before me, paid $10k and found this acceptable. A $10 fiberglass part from china has 10X the fit and finish of the garbage shipped to me. Plus the fact that a human being looked at these parts and decided they were good to ship is appalling.

And the aluminum parts are just plain laziness. Someone couldn't take the time to ensure the calibration of the plasma cutter. And or the CAD program isn't correct for the speed of the table.

The problems are all crappy construction and nonexistent quality control.

[metalmaker12]

The 818 will cost pretty close to as much to finish as a cobra because of its extra needed items and labor. It is in no way a 15k build unless you want to drive a junk box. The panels are surely hurting and need to be much better.

[Mechie3]

And I am shocked that 250 people before me, paid $10k and found this acceptable. Plus the fact that a human being looked at these parts and decided they were good to ship is appalling.

And the aluminum parts are just plain laziness. Someone couldn't take the time to ensure the calibration of the plasma cutter. And or the CAD program isn't correct for the speed of the table.

The problems are all crappy construction and nonexistent quality control.

I wouldn't say we all found it acceptable. I have seen people say "hey, it's not bad" but I think I've seen more frustration that it isn't really a no paint unless you want it to only look good from a distance. What i have seen a lot of is the "it's a kit car, built it how you want" statement whenever the issue of part fitment or part finish is brought up. I don't agree with that because that's not how it was marketed. If they had said "body work and paint required" I would find it ok as buyers would be prepared for that and know what they were getting. I have simply resigned myself to accept I'll need to learn to do body work.

My thin aluminum parts came out ok. The thicker pieces all had slag. I'd concur that the speeds/feeds aren't set right.

[carbon fiber]

OUCH! That's pretty pathetic. At least the 818 is symetrical. The GTM is NOT. (Even after GenII and a $5000 dollar increase in price to $25,000 for the kit) I hope FFR is paying attention to this feedback. I've talked to quite a few people who decided on another kit or a production car build after hearing about the bodywork issues on the GTM. It would be nice to be able to tell people the bodies are high quality, but I have to be honest about the issues.

[Frank818]

I am very sorry to see these issues, it is very frustrating!
Have you contacted FFR yet?


I see your panels are red. My white panels from April are near perfect.

Same here, April 2014 seems to be a good month. I call myself lucky on that. I have many other issues but at least so far not this one.


It is in no way a 15k build unless you want to drive a junk box.

Double that to the minimum if you want something with power, great quality and all of it reliable.

[sponaugle]

I am very sorry to see these issues, it is very frustrating!
Same here, April 2014 seems to be a good month. I call myself lucky on that. I have many other issues but at least so far not this one.
Double that to the minimum if you want something with power, great quality and all of it reliable.


Agreed that it is a bummer that you have these issues. My kit , delivered in May, certainly has better fiberglass (white). It is interesting to hear people's point of view in regards to cost vs quality. I certainly would have been happy to pay more for better body work, as that is one area I have no experience in. On the other hand it is a kit car, so learning something new is what it is about!

I hope you get everything sorted so you can get building!

Jeff

[Wayne Presley]

I'm building my 4th 818 right now and all the panels while not perfect/paint quality are definitely useable and will wrap very nicely. All of the aluminum was near perfect for a laser cutter on aluminum.

Have you called FFR yet? What was their response?

[sponaugle]

All of the aluminum was near perfect for a laser cutter on aluminum.

I forgot to mention, my aluminum was also pretty much perfect. I could not have done better cuts myself. Very clean on both sides.
Jeff

[ssssly]

I contacted FFR and have not received a response as of yet.

As for the "Its a kit car, what did you expect?" point of view. I expect what I expect for every product I purchase new from any company. That the product provided be free of manufacturer defects, or that the company repair the manufacturer defects at no cost to me, or that the company replace the defective item with one free from manufacturer defect at no cost to me.

I fully expected that it would need to be smoothed and painted for a "show quality" finish. That is however not what I am looking at.

Every single panel needs to be brought down to the bare fiberglass. And then every single corner and bend needs to be repaired and relayed, filled, and then prepped and painted. Is the difference between 2 days and $1500-$2000 and 3 weeks at $8,000-$10,000.

The same with the frame. I now need to send it out, have all the powder coat stripped, welds ground down properly, frame cleaned properly and re-powder coated. Which will cost close to $2000, and take nearly a month to get it back. All on top of the $400 I already paid to powder coat it.

The aluminum is all scrap. They are only good for making templates. Trying to hand sand that amount of slag off such a thin piece of aluminum would only result in non-uniform thickness. Which would look just as bad if not worse than the slag when painted.

Guess I could block mount them, and then glass table sand them flat (like old school, back yard cylinder head decking). But again, I shouldn't have to.

I have no problem paying money to make something the way I want it. I do have issue with paying money to fix manufacturer defects in a new item.

And the bigger question to me, is why FFR thinks this level of quality is acceptable? A FFR employee personally handled every single piece that was shipped to me, checked off that it was there (even checked off a few were there that weren't) and then shipped it. Saying, yes! This is the quality of product that FFR should be known for, and that FFR customers deserve.

In all, with options, I paid $12000 dollars for this kit. Almost 3 months of my enlisted take home pay. And I think I deserve better for 3 months work. I know how hard I worked and the amount of pride I put into what I did to earn that money. And there was no pride taken in the products that were sent to me. Or at least I can't conceive of how somebody could have been proud of it.

Which is a shame. Because after the amount of R&D that went into this kit and the accomplishment it should be, the people who are making the components should be able to be proud of what they have accomplished.

On the up side, the Stewart Transport guy was great. Super friendly, polite, courteous and went further out of his way than I would have expected to ensure he got the kit to me. And 3 days ahead of schedule on top of it.

[AZPete]

Yikes, I didn't realize every fiberglass panel, every aluminum panel and the frame were all screwed up. The photos didn't show that much.

[Frank818]

I contacted FFR and have not received a response as of yet.

Ok but what did the person on the phone say? Or you had to leave a voice mail?

[FFRSpec72]

Plain and simple, their fiberglass work is not the best, I have all sorts of issues with my MkII Challenge car where they joined the seams and thus I have layers of gel coat and fiberglass mixed and thus cracks. At lease the 818 dos not have seams that I have to worry about.

[RM1SepEx]

my thin aluminum is perfect, the thick aluminum is very rough, he plasma cutter was run too fast

My powder coating is crap, as I work on the car more bad areas keep popping up. Flaking off the brackets, areas with rust that allows it to peel off in several others. Some areas had coating that was never re-flowed. They need to increase the price and do a better job of prep. I shouldn't have to repair bad areas with POR15 and black paint.

My body is a major problem, I was standing within 6 feet of Dave Smith when he told us hat the white demo car at the open house was just buffed out by Tony Zullo in a couple hrs... NO WAY for ANY of the bodies that I've seen... No paint? what a joke I can't see how anyone could do an 818 without at least a full week of bodywork, voids, corners without complete filling, waves in the gel coat etc...

FFR answer, they gave me a pint of gel coat to match... They are always pleasant and friendly however their solutions are always disappointing.

Wayne, I think you and Erik get different discussions and support than the rest of us based your ongoing relationships and on my discussions with other early builders. Frustrations run high and we all work through it.

[GUNS]

Brooker,

I'd send those panels back. Mine aren't perfect, but they are no where near that bad (chassis #10)/. Like others have said, my thin aluminum is fine, thicker pieces are a bit rough. Welds and powder coat on my frame are also bad.

I feel your frustrations as well. I placed my order for a no paint 818 when it was first announced. It wasn't until after I received my car that FFR changed the language to "minimal paint and body work." I also paid for carbon fiber aero which turned out to be fiber glass that kinda looks like carbon. The list goes on. Every time I get to a new phase of the build there is always something wrong or just not quite right. Most if not all the defects are recoverable, but like you said it's not something you would expect from a company that has been in the business for as long as they have and pride themselves on quality.

On a side note, what do other kit car companies like Superlite and Ultima do for their gel coat bodies? Is it safe to assume that the quality on those bodies is much better?

Good luck with your build man. Try not to get too bitter right off the bat. Even with all of the problems, I've had a blast with my build. I think it'll all be worth it in the long run.

[ssssly]

Not bitter. I will build a great car.

FFR will either replace the improperly manufactured component or pay to have them repaired and or remade.

Some more pics.

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[RM1SepEx]

Your side panels/rear fenders are better than mine...

[theburner9]

looks like some of my panels. I haven't tried to talk to FFR about it yet though.

[Mechie3]

I think yours look similar to mine, though the white might hide imperfections a little better as you don't get the red/white contrast.

[theburner9]

I thought I was going to be the only one with significant issues. Maybe FFR can hurry up with the plastic panels and at least give us a significant break on them if not replace the panels that are bad at no charge.

[Frank818]

Maybe FFR can hurry up with the plastic panels and at least give us a significant break on them if not replace the panels that are bad at no charge.

What makes you think the plastic panels would be defect-free? The manufacturing is different than fiberglass and there cannot be defects? Just asking cuz I know nothing about that.

[Mechie3]

What makes you think the plastic panels would be defect-free? The manufacturing is different than fiberglass and there cannot be defects? Just asking cuz I know nothing about that.

Depending on the process and how they do it, it could be farmed out. This has several benefits including the supplier is now on the hook for quality control and process control (though they might raise the price on FFR if they're too picky and their process isn't consistent). The process is also likely much more automated. The worst processes are those that require skilled labor. A change in workforce, a guy out sick, or someone having a bad day affects your product. None of those affect a machine if all the guy is doing is pushing a button. If the process is good enough you end up with better parts for less money.

The only way I see it done in house is if it's vacuum formed and not injection molded. Still don't think FFR would buy the machinery for that though.

[wleehendrick]

I have fairly early (#52) white panels and some of the same defects, but not nearly as many. Overall, I'm a little disappointed, but accepting given the price of the kit. My Aluminum panels are nearly perfect, although I did have to de-burr the firewall, that's expected. For the steel parts, although there was some weld splatter, my powdercoat seems fine, and I've been working on the chassis for a while now. White does hide defects, and I'm happy with the appearance of the panels I've polished/waxed/buffed out.

FFR has a history of producing bodies requiring paint, and old habits are hard to break, I guess. QC and workmanship should be better, IMHO, but being in the defense/aerospace industry, I'm sure that if you were to impose quality standards/processes like AS9100, given the overhead and labor rates, the price would have to go up dramatically. I think that Dave set an aggressive price target for the 818 and they've been a victim of their own success, struggling to meet demand and rushing through with a lack of attention to detail at times.

Interestingly, I was watching "How It's made: Dream Cars" and they showed the construction of the Alfa Romeo 4C body panels. They use SMC (sheet molded composite) fiberglass body panels. This is a much more consistent process, and less labor intensive, than hand lay up. However, I'm sure it would require a more significant tooling investment than the current molds. Given the success of the 818, Hopefully Dave S will consider a more high-tech construction method in the future.

[RM1SepEx]

The panels are not being done at the Tow Rd location anymore... As of my visit 2 weeks ago

[theburner9]

The panels are not being done at the Tow Rd location anymore... As of my visit 2 weeks ago

Does this mean they are now doing plastic panels? or are they still fiberglass but supposedly better quality?

[wleehendrick]

In the last email, Dave mentioned the Carbon Fiber production has been outsourced, and are now 'perfect' autoclaved, pre-preg. No mention of the FG.

[xxguitarist]

The panels are not being done at the Tow Rd location anymore... As of my visit 2 weeks ago

This has been the case for a while. When we visited in the spring, they were being made out of house too, at least all the main ones.

They are still gelcoat & FG, and some of the defects seen in this thread are a function of the mold prep. They're apparently using clay to fill the sharp corners of the mold to improve release, as opposed to a designed, permanent radius.

Some of the stuff pictured looks to be clay that came off with the part, other is just the -eh- quality that you get out of a less-controlled process like smearing clay into a corner by hand. There are certainly better processes, but the bodies we looked at seemed to be decent.
We think we'll be able to get by fine with some slightly creative wrap positioning, but we're also not after a show car.

[ssssly]

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[ssssly]

And one to show that it is every single exterior tim piece. All the mesh is burnt and slagged as well.

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[Frank818]

Wow, none of my alu parts have anything close to that. In fact I could not find any discoloration, splatter, rough edges, etc.

[ssssly]

Now for bubbled and ready to flake powder coat and dippy, overworked welds.

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[GUNS]

Yea, mine isn't nearly that bad. I would almost want to send everything back to them and tell them to try again. That really sucks man, I know you must be frustrated.

[Mechie3]

It looks like the gas for the cutting process was intermittent causing it to oxidize vs a clean cut.

[Frank818]

On the powder coat, I do have a few little bubbles, but like I just said 7 words ago, "little". Not nearly as big as yours and certainly not as many! Looks like you don't have an inch without a bubble, no clean surface.

Now, body panels, alu panels and frame are 3 different things. I wonder how all 3 "passed" the FFR QC. Maybe the same person was "looking" at them.

[ssssly]

Here is the email I received from Joe S today. Notice how instead of the wording used in all FFR advertising, "composite body panels which enable a no-paint finish." the body is now referred to as "RAW material that requires finishing."

Hello Brooker,



Here is the link for the digital manual 818 Assembly Manual



Missing items have been written up, and will be sent.



The spacers are going to be a little tight or loose in some spots, from welding tolerances. Bare VS powder frame will also change this as well.



All of the aluminum is laser cut at FFR, I’ve never had issues with edging of the aluminum. The components we give are still raw aluminum, most customers use the panels as they are. If you wish to modify them, then it is up to you. send me photos if you wish so I can determine if it is out of spec.



Can you please send some photos of the powder coating your questioning.



I am going to send you a gel coat repair kit, to touch up the areas. I do not see anything in your photos that is out of spec, it is the same as all the panels that we have here. All of the pieces are still considered RAW material, that require finishing. Either finishing the edges if you wish to run just the gel coated body, or prep for paint.



Thank you,



Joe S.

[Aloha818]

Welcome back to the mainland and congrats on receiving your kit!

It is a little overwhelming when you actually receive the kit and start going through all the inventory and realizing, for really the first time, what you have gotten yourself into! I know I did.

I looked at your posting history and prior to receiving your kit your posts primarily revolved around engine building and hubs. As you mention in your opening post to this build thread you mention your experience with engine building and tuning. As it appears that you have not built a FFR car before, it would have seemed prudent to have reviewed and posted about 818 building prior to and after ordering your kit. The panel quality, welding splatter, and powder coating, as delivered quality has been well documented by myself and others.

It looks like you ordered your kit in March this year, I spent most of the spring and summer, along with RM1Sepex, Metalmaker and others working on paint prep and paint, and during this time reporting and posting pics of specific blemishes and voids in the gelcoat. Both Wayne and Wallace posted about spending several thousands on beautiful paint jobs. I am sure FFR would have refunded your money any time during your wait if you explained that the kit might not live up to your expectations.

Please do not take my comments as controversial or as to minimize the fact that FFR should have to do a better job. I just want to provide some balance to others that might read these posts. This kit design is now over a year old and the information is out there, so don't be surprised that you receive the same kit that everyone else has. Everyone on this forum has been very helpful and supportive. And very little, if any confrontational posting, please do not take my comments in that light.

Once you start actually building, the excitement returns and you will get past the defects!

[Dave Smith]

I've read this entire thread and would like to offer my solution. First of all thank you for your service to our country and for your business. I have been doing this for almost 20 years and all I can say is that this post is not an accurate reflection of our product or company. The laser cut aluminum pieces that we provide with the kits are exceptional. The ones shown should not look like that and we're happy to replace them. Same goes for the fiberglass and powder-coating. They do not all look like that no way. To say that all of them are junk is emotional and not true. This post makes the kits we sell look like garbage and that is not the case. The 818 is exceptional in so many ways and I want to personally get to the bottom of every single one of these pictures and claims. I could replace parts but I suspect there is something more at work here and I want to solve this problem fully.

My solution is simple.

I will immediately refund your entire purchase price and arrange for a transport company to pick up your kit as quickly as possible (days not weeks). I want it unmolested and exactly as you have it there to be delivered to my dock for my personal inspection and report.

I am offering to fly you out to Factory Five at my expense, pay for a hotel and rental car, at any time of your choosing to allow you to tour the plant, inspect the welding department, molding department, chassis assembly and packaging areas. At that time you may personally select from a line of four or five completed 818 kits, all identical and all ready for shipment. You can inspect the frame, body panels, aluminum, packaging and parts of the kit you select. I will then ship that exact kit to you, at my expense, as quickly as possible so that you have exactly what you want (you will have to pay for the kit). IF the kit and what we sell does not meet your expectations, then you have your full refund and will not waste any further time.

That is my offer. I’ve never done this before and am happy to speak to you at your convenience.

Prediction. You will be our best customer and you will build an exceptional 818 and you will know, like almost every person we've ever built a car for, that ours is a company of exceptional people and products.

[Mechie3]

Quite the offer!

http://i.imgur.com/JSBTl.gif

[Wayne Presley]

Now THAT is customer service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[matteo92065]

Wow. I have never read anything like that. Amazing.

[Frank818]

Brooker, I am already happy with my kit, but I envy you a lot to accept such an offer! Cuz you will accept. :)

[GUNS]

Wow, I'm impressed FFR.

[Mechie3]

If he doesn't want to fly out you can fly me out and we can hang out and talk shop for a day. ;)

[Hindsight]

That is my offer. I’ve never done this before and am happy to speak to you at your convenience.

WOW, incredible response.

[Mechie3]

For others reading this, for deburring straight or concave edges I love using this tool:

http://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Tools_-a-_Test_Equipment/Hole_Cutting_Tools/Deburring_Tools_-a-_Accessories/107054?utm_source=google&utm_medium=product-search&gclid=Cj0KEQjwm6CgBRC0zOmrydrqmosBEiQA_xoLRnkSZH3I Zo2Yggy5ybYuZozP6vt-T7r13xfovzkd31IaAl328P8HAQ

My thin aluminum needed nothing but thicker pieces will likely need some. That tool made quick work of it.

[metalmaker12]

Go Dave!!!!!!!!!!

[thall818]

I have been following this thread closely and am shocked at FFRs response. Of course, in a positive way. I have always admired the company and now I have confirmation. I received kit #200 earlier this year. I received all of my parts in the 2 months or so following and have no backorders. My panels are not perfect, but are much nicer than yours. My thick aluminum requires light deburring. My thin aluminum is perfect. I have been following the forum for a year now and can honestly say that the kit has met, and often exceeded, my expectations and FFR has been nothing short of a pleasure to work with.

This is my first kit car after almost 30 years of restoration work and I can honestly say that this is the most fun I've had in a long time.

[AZPete]

I'm impressed by Dave's response, but not surprised.
I've been a Factory Five customer for 7 years.

[Presto51]

I've read this entire thread and would like to offer my solution. First of all thank you for your service to our country and for your business. I have been doing this for almost 20 years and all I can say is that this post is not an accurate reflection of our product or company. The laser cut aluminum pieces that we provide with the kits are exceptional. The ones shown should not look like that and we're happy to replace them. Same goes for the fiberglass and powder-coating. They do not all look like that no way. To say that all of them are junk is emotional and not true. This post makes the kits we sell look like garbage and that is not the case. The 818 is exceptional in so many ways and I want to personally get to the bottom of every single one of these pictures and claims. I could replace parts but I suspect there is something more at work here and I want to solve this problem fully.

My solution is simple.

I will immediately refund your entire purchase price and arrange for a transport company to pick up your kit as quickly as possible (days not weeks). I want it unmolested and exactly as you have it there to be delivered to my dock for my personal inspection and report.

I am offering to fly you out to Factory Five at my expense, pay for a hotel and rental car, at any time of your choosing to allow you to tour the plant, inspect the welding department, molding department, chassis assembly and packaging areas. At that time you may personally select from a line of four or five completed 818 kits, all identical and all ready for shipment. You can inspect the frame, body panels, aluminum, packaging and parts of the kit you select. I will then ship that exact kit to you, at my expense, as quickly as possible so that you have exactly what you want (you will have to pay for the kit). IF the kit and what we sell does not meet your expectations, then you have your full refund and will not waste any further time.

That is my offer. I’ve never done this before and am happy to speak to you at your convenience.

Prediction. You will be our best customer and you will build an exceptional 818 and you will know, like almost every person we've ever built a car for, that ours is a company of exceptional people and products.

WOW!! Now that's a deal to take.

Really looking forward to Dave's findings after he inspects this kit

Ron

[Brando]

I knew there was a reason I admired Dave ;)
Ssssly are you just speechless or have you not caught up on your thread today?

[ssssly]

In addition to the offer he posted in this thread, Dave Smith also sent me an email with his personal cell number.

I tried to give him a call, but it was a little after 6:00PM East Coast time.

I sent him an email with my contact info and will try again tomorrow at a more respectable hour to get in touch with him.

My sole concern with his offer is that I don't want to cherry pick a kit. I would never feel right selecting kit components, knowing that the parts I didn't select, because they weren't as good, would be shipped to someone else.

Either way, I look forward to talking to Mr. Smith.

[Frank818]

My sole concern with his offer is that I don't want to cherry pick a kit. I would never feel right selecting kit components, knowing that the parts I didn't select, because they weren't as good, would be shipped to someone else.

I don't see it that way. Either way you or someone will get these kits at the factory, so you have the choice of picking one YOU like or you choose none and you get one Dave will ship to you. They are the same kits, someone will get them, it doesn't mean it's not as good. All kits are not made exactly the same, if FFR makes 100 kits and all of them pass a thorough QC (let's forget the one exception you just got, cuz it really is an exception), some will have passed just ok, some will have passed with a higher score. 100 people will get these kits at random. All of which are within FFR's specs.

Now you have the opportunity to choose which one from those who passed the QC you want to get. And you have that one-time opportunity cuz you received a very bad kit and Dave feels very bad about it cuz it's not what FFR does at the factory. He doesn't want customers to receive kits like yours. You had troubles and Dave wants to pay you something in return. It's not unfair for the others, you deserve it!

Take me for example, one of my part didn't look good at all when I picked up the kit, but was still in my kit. I didn't see it, I never asked for anything, but I was asked to choose another copy of the part from a stack cuz the nice guy at FFR said he didn't like the quality and didn't want me or anyone else to have that part. We saved a lot of hassles working that way and I found that I deserved what he offered.

[svanlare]

Feeling bad for your pain, but happy to see how FF has stepped up. All companies have issues, how they deal with the problems separates the great ones from the rest. Good luck and I hope for good news in the future and look forward to watching your build.

[Junty]

As others have mentioned, I am so very impressed by the FFR response. I received my 818 a little over a month ago (all the way south) in Aotearoa (New Zealand), and although there are a few rough edges, Im very impressed by the quality and ease of build. Thank you FFR for providing a wonderful design at an affordable price which allows for infinite customisation and personalisation. A1+

[ssssly]

Spoke on the phone with Dave Smith today, after we straightened out our time zones.

Going to try to figure out schedules and take him up on his offer to come out for a tour.

More importantly to me, he seemed genuine in the fact that he wants to get to the bottom of why the defective parts were defective in the first place and why they were shipped.

He stated that he was confident that after seeing the operations out there, that I would be one of their biggest fans. And nothing would make me happier than to prove him right.

On a side note, that does look like a pretty nice deburring tool. I might pick one up. And my thick aluminum is looks fine. Was just the thin stuff that is slagged and burnt up.

Also looked at the frame under my HID dive light. And my speculation about the bubbling, and likely the peeling, is outgassing at the heat boundaries from the welds. The bubbles seem to be the thickest in concentric circles as you would see from welding heat. So it may be as simple as turning the heat up when preheating the frames for powder coat. Or preheating them if they aren't doing that already. Being that the frames are tube steel, even if they were sandblasted after they were welded, imperfections can outgas at the heat boundaries if not preheated hot enough.

I would have to sand the powder coat off to be certain. But I told Mr. Smith I would return the frame to him untouched so that he could inspect it. So it will have to wait till then.

On a couple of other side notes this makes for a great shop light (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HEYCRI8/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1). 54WT5HO, comes with bulbs, is daisy chainable, comes prewired with a 3 prong plug, and is about half the price you would pay for an identically spec'd "shop light" with bulbs at HD or the like. Only difference is because it is a "grow light" it comes with 65K vs 41K bulbs. But you would never know what the K was if nobody told you.

Ordered one of these (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001Q9EFUK/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) as well. Plugged into my garage door opener. And then the light is plugged into it. So now I have 20,000 lumens of remote controlled garage lighting.

Also ordered one of these (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5sBzK82Wb4) for rivnut install. I'll let ya'll know how it works when it gets here.

[Brando]

Is it odd I wish my kit was messed up? I want to kick it a bit with dave.... pick out my kit. Ssssly if things actually do happen for a reason be sure to embrace this one

[FFRSpec72]

Also ordered one of these (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5sBzK82Wb4) for rivnut install. I'll let ya'll know how it works when it gets here.

I have used this tool before, like the rest it will still strip the rivnut and does not work well on thin surface, its just a little better than some of the hand rivnut hand tools, I have given up on rivnuts and using nut plates where possible

[Boog]

Also ordered one of these (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5sBzK82Wb4) for rivnut install. I'll let ya'll know how it works when it gets here.

Where did you order it from? I haven't found a supplier for the US.

[ssssly]

Ebay UK

[tango68ss]

TTT.. Any updates on this situation?

[Erik W. Treves]

Wayne, I think you and Erik get different discussions and support than the rest of us based your ongoing relationships and on my discussions with other early builders. Frustrations run high and we all work through it.

I get the same support you all get...or should I say I get the same support as I did when I bought my Mark I Roadster...the back order list was HUGE, the body was not great at all...using the stock throttle pedal without removing the clutch interlock switch caused my throttle to stick WOT, the THIN plate the pedal was attached to bent! I just knew and know what I was getting into and set my expectations where I thought I needed to. Having said that, IF, I ever get to a point where I think there is an "issue" FFR has always stepped up!! That's why I am on my 5th kit from them!!!! Plain and simple for me...you could look at a picture of the 818 and go buy some metal and try and create a 818 from scratch....I did that for my LOCOST 7...and that took forever and way more frustrating..at 10K for the kit you are much better off. Is it perfect...for me it was..I was painting anyway...I had a lot of issues with the body - but worked through them...just keeping the end goal in mind puts my frustration in check. As far as the open house car goes...I spoke with Tony...that's all he did! He buffed it out and used some white touchup paint on the "spots". ---- If you think I get special treatment....I paid FULL PRICE for my 818 and happily helped make well over 100 changes and improvements to the kit..not to mention the amount of redo and refit Wayne and I had to do. ... it's all part of the Journey.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33532&d=1410703137

THe pics in this thread look about what mine did and I had several, ok, a lot, of air pockets which had to be addressed....still better than I could have done...I would be more frustrated if I had been expecting a white car and got a red one. I could go on but don't want to high jack the thread. Only went this far cause I was mentioned by name....make no mistake...there is no "special" support here. We are all family and Dave and the FFR team treats us all the same (provided we don't burn any individual bridges along the way.) We all have those cousins, brothers, aunts who nobody wants to talk to :)

Work through it! Dave will and always makes it right...you have a TON of stuff you can do in the mean time....go have some fun!!!!

[metalmaker12]

No special treatment here either and I kind of have an insider connection. My kit had more voids than any I have seen to date, I fixed them all, did all my body work etc etc. In fact my engine troubles kind of are related to a design flaw ( lack of proper ic airflow) and my my own inability to monitor high iats, but I don't go blam anyone, I pick up the pieces and keep trucking,making improvements and relaying my info to FFR to help the community. Building a car is never perfect, but it is so much better than buying one!! Sorry, I had to vent.

I hope all is fixed and you get you kit the way you would like, but it's a piece of clay you must mold.

[RM1SepEx]

I get the same support you all get...or should I say I get the same support as I did when I bought my Mark I Roadster...the back order list was HUGE, the body was not great at all...using the stock throttle pedal without removing the clutch interlock switch caused my throttle to stick WOT, the THIN plate the pedal was attached to bent! I just knew and know what I was getting into and set my expectations where I thought I needed to. Having said that, IF, I ever get to a point where I think there is an "issue" FFR has always stepped up!! That's why I am on my 5th kit from them!!!! Plain and simple for me...you could look at a picture of the 818 and go buy some metal and try and create a 818 from scratch....I did that for my LOCOST 7...and that took forever and way more frustrating..at 10K for the kit you are much better off. Is it perfect...for me it was..I was painting anyway...I had a lot of issues with the body - but worked through them...just keeping the end goal in mind puts my frustration in check. As far as the open house car goes...I spoke with Tony...that's all he did! He buffed it out and used some white touchup paint on the "spots". ---- If you think I get special treatment....I paid FULL PRICE for my 818 and happily helped make well over 100 changes and improvements to the kit..not to mention the amount of redo and refit Wayne and I had to do. ... it's all part of the Journey.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33532&d=1410703137

THe pics in this thread look about what mine did and I had several, ok, a lot, of air pockets which had to be addressed....still better than I could have done...I would be more frustrated if I had been expecting a white car and got a red one. I could go on but don't want to high jack the thread. Only went this far cause I was mentioned by name....make no mistake...there is no "special" support here. We are all family and Dave and the FFR team treats us all the same (provided we don't burn any individual bridges along the way.) We all have those cousins, brothers, aunts who nobody wants to talk to :)

Work through it! Dave will and always makes it right...you have a TON of stuff you can do in the mean time....go have some fun!!!!

Don't really want to muck up Brandon's thread. I've emailed and PMed Dave... crickets... I get Tony Z and Joe S

FFR works based on relationships, new builder's don't have one and we end up talking to people that can't resolve our issues to our satisfaction. Like Brandon I paid for powder coating, it is DEFECTIVE I have 3 areas that have come off like the photo by my shifter

and 8 -10 brackets that look like the photo

33555 33556

BOTH are problems due to poor prep, the powder isn't adhering to the surface. I was given a pint of POR15 and a can of black paint to fix it myself

My body problems are well documented in my thread. I attended the open house where we were shown a white body that Tony spent "a couple hrs buffing it out" my body has terrible underfilled corners, big voids and the hood came with a broken tip (shoved into a cardboard tube to protect it) I was given two small containers and catalyst for repairing my gel coat.

I understand now that our expectations were too high, the problem is Dave Smith is the person that set them this high. I feel as if I bent over backwards to work with FFR on these issues. As Brandon stated how are we supposed to feel when he gets real customer service and we feel as if we have been ignored?

[Dave Smith]

Dan, I was under the assumption that you were well taken care of. We found some bad powdercoating and dealt with these individually, but they were an extreme minority and 99 percent of FFR powdercoated chassis are great. I was told that you were the one who asked for the POR and that Tony went out and bought what you asked for.

I am dealing with Brooker personally and if ANYONE has ANY issue at all with your product that has not been resolved, please call me directly. I have instructed the staff to direct any and all reports/calls to me. I’ll report on Brookers case after Ive met with him, seen the parts and provided a solution and report to you.

[David Hodgkins]

Folks,

So as to not muck up this thread until ssssly and FFR get a chance to work on this issue I'm temporarily closing this thread.

ssssly or Dave Smith: Please let one of the admins know when an appropriate conclusion has been reached so that a followup can be posted here.

Thanks all for your understanding and support of both ssssly and FFR.

:)

[David Hodgkins]

I'm sincerely hoping that this thread can now re-commence in a positive vein.

Re-opening...

:)

[Frank818]

Yes! Let's see what the updates are! :)

[Rasmus]

ssssly sells seashells by the sea shore.

[Mechie3]

ssssly sells seashells by the sea shore.

SRSLY? ;)

I've been wondering as well the outcome of the trip. Hope it went well and you enjoyed the tour.

[JSP49]

I'm really disappointed to hear and see this. It's given me a queer feeling in the pit of my stomach. I've been saving for months for a kit and donor parts. I even cut out beer during the week to bring my dream experience home sooner. I've endured the stress fending off discouraging comments the whole time from family about how crazy this project seems to them. I'm struggling to reconcile all those videos and still shots of Dave and the rest of the FFR team showing immaculate bodies and builds and hearing about their ultra technology in producing all the parts with what I just saw and read. I would appreciate comments from others on their experience regarding this issue.

[STiPWRD]

I'm really disappointed to hear and see this. It's given me a queer feeling in the pit of my stomach. I've been saving for months for a kit and donor parts. I even cut out beer during the week to bring my dream experience home sooner. I've endured the stress fending off discouraging comments the whole time from family about how crazy this project seems to them. I'm struggling to reconcile all those videos and still shots of Dave and the rest of the FFR team showing immaculate bodies and builds and hearing about their ultra technology in producing all the parts with what I just saw and read. I would appreciate comments from others on their experience regarding this issue.
Keep saving, the experience of building a kit car it well worth it. Don't let a few imperfections in the body work hold you back. My body panels aren't perfect but in general much better than what's depicted in this thread. And if there are any issues FFR has shown they will go above and beyond to do the right thing and fix any problems. They've been great to work with overall. You will run into challenges from time to time and learn more than you ever thought, that's all part of the fun.

[Mechie3]

I wouldn't be so discouraged as to not buy the kit. Rather, go into it knowing the body requires more than just a light buffing to look good. Overall it's still a pretty good kit, just not as bolt together as originally thought by many of us. Those with later kits are showing improvements vs the original kits that shipped.

Given the opportunity, I would buy the kit again, I would just adjust my expectations and set my budget a little higher.

[Quiny]

Keep saving, the experience of building a kit car it well worth it. Don't let a few imperfections in the body work hold you back. My body panels aren't perfect but in general much better than what's depicted in this thread. And if there are any issues FFR has shown they will go above and beyond to do the right thing and fix any problems. They've been great to work with overall. You will run into challenges from time to time and learn more than you ever thought, that's all part of the fun.

Ditto, I have nothing but a good experience with FFR. If you are looking for a show quality car out of the box than don't buy one, If instead you want a great platform and starting point to build something that is completely your own, than an FFR kit is what you want. I had to promise my wife that this project would not effect our finances. I worked on the side and sold a whole bunch of stuff(other toys) to afford the kit and I do not regret it one bit. I have an earlier white body and although it's not perfect it's plenty good enough to drive for a year and save for a paint job. Considering the cars that an 818 can compete with, it's a bargain.

[ssssly]

Well, went out to FFR last weekend.

FFR is shipping me a new un-powdercoated frame, body panels and aluminum.

The powder coating doesn't meet my requirements. The welding spatter is not removed from the frames and the frames are not outgassed prior to powder coat. To me it was, too high of a possibility of getting another bubbled frame that would flake, so I elected to skip the powder and do the frame myself.

The solution to this issue is to wire wheel the heated carbon off the frames after welding and then outgassing the frames prior to etching and powder coating . Would add about $150-$250 of work per powder coated frame. If it were me, I would do it. I think at the price point that customers would pay the extra $150. And would save on a lot of bad PR and refunds for flaking powder coat. Dave Smith doesn't think the flaking is prevalent enough to address it.

To some I would say the PC is worth it to others not. They are welded, etched and coated. Will it cost you more than $400 to do the exact same process. Almost definitely. Will that process, vice: cleaning, gassing, flashing, etching, coating meet your needs. Don't know. That's up to you. But now you know what you are getting to make that decision.

All the 818 body panels I saw there looked considerably better than mine. They still didn't look like what I would consider "no paint". But they did look like something I can live with. IE, they had corners. The biggest issue I see here is expectation management. The most prevalent tag line on this car is "paint free body". While certainly every person who has bought an 818 is not on this forum and I doubt I have read every thread, I have not read a single thread about the body where a customer thought the body was "paint free". The best customer descriptions I have seen can be summed up with "its a kit car, what did you expect" and/or "not so bad that I won't drive it until I get it painted". And the quality of the body panels I expect to receive with the new body being shipped to me is, "not so bad that I won't drive it until I get it painted" not "paint free body".

And without coming up with a new process for the body panels, "not so bad that I won't drive it until I get it painted" is pretty much the best one can expect. Hand laying complex shapes like the 818 body panels is always going to be problematic. There is just so much you can do with shape cut pieces of fiberglass mat and a paint brush full of resin.

If they were able to get the plastic molding up and running, those could probably have been "no paint".

Hand finishing all the pieces? Also not cheap labor wise. By the time you were done filling all the voids from the hand molding and multiple coats of gel, looking around double the price from what the body panels are now.

Vacuum molding them, could go a long way to the goal. Probably about $1000 more per kit. The corners and complex shapes would be hard set and would be easier to gel.

Or oversizing the molds and using extra glass and resin in the tight corners and complex shapes. Then cutting them to shape with the 5 axis CNC router they have on premiss. I would guess, about 4 hrs of CNC time more a kit. Don't know the work flow and tooling for that exact CNC but I would guess it about $100 an hour. This would also probably get the body panels very close to "no paint".

Again, if it were me. I would do something. Dave is adamant about the price point and doing stuff in-house with local material. I fully support the latter. I however don't know how he could hit the price point and actually produce a "no paint body". And that price point certainly isn't being hit on the customer end. The best bodies will still need to be filled and painted at some point. So the customer is not getting "paint free" at $10k. They are getting a hell of a lot of car for $10k. But they are going to have to spend $3-5k in body work.

So to me, paying $2k more in vacuum molding or cnc body work for my kit (to get as close to "paint free" as anyone is ever going to get, would have saved me ~$3k in body work. And I think that is math that anyone buying one of these kits would accept. I certainly would have. Getting something sanded and sprayed is way cheaper than stripping and filling an entire fiberglass body.

All the aluminum I saw there looked good. Not expecting any issues there.

Additionally, the FFR facility is pretty bad *** and the folks that work there are pretty bad *** as well.

So if you actually read all that you are probably still wondering where I am at with the whole thing. Because it's not glaring support or condemnation.

So here is where I am at. I don't like complaining about things without being offering solutions. I find it to be an obnoxious trait.

I like Dave's company. I like the 818.

I identified problems, cleared some stuff up, offered some alternatives.

Bottom line, I would buy another car from FFR. Hopefully by then either the processes matched the advertising. If not, I would point out the flaws as I saw them again and try to offer more solutions. The issue isn't that it is a bad car, its that it has been sold on the vision of what the car was desired to be, not what it is.

More telling than any of that though, if Dave was looking to hire Sigma 6 work flow management after I retire from the Air Force, I would apply for the job.

[Frank818]

All true!

In the end, I'm happy you could find an agreement that would let you continue with FFR. Welcome back.

[RM1SepEx]

Thanks for the summary Brooker. I visited FFR as well and worked out my kit "issues" with Dave. I couldn't agree with you more Brooker. Details of my trip in my thread.

[AZPete]

aaah, Thank You, Dave?.

[longislandwrx]

its that it has been sold on the vision of what the car was desired to be, not what it is.

well spoken.

[ssssly]

aaah, Thank You, Dave?.

Absolutely a thank you to Dave.

I thanked him in person.

And thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread.

On another note, got a call from my Stewert Transport driver, and my new frame and body should be here next Thursday.

[Mitch Wright]

Got my 818R in August with the red gel coat body, it looks really good. It meets my expectation as not needing paint.

[ssssly]

Got my 818R in August with the red gel coat body, it looks really good. It meets my expectation as not needing paint.

That is great to hear.

Got my new body and frame over the weekend. Haven't had a chance to pull the panels off yet, had to work all weekend. All the tape is still on it.

From what is visible, it looks considerable better.

The frame is also nicer. Noticeably less spatter. And looks as though it may have been wheeled and/or ground clean.

If it has been cleaned, hopefully this is a new standard in QC for all customers.

[Frank818]

I am very happy to see you finally got it all worked out and, most of all, that you seem happy of what you got now!

[ssssly]

Me too. Hopefully I will be able to get the garage situated and start working this weekend.

[dream-builder]

My two goto stores for such items always were AutomationDirect (http://automationdirect.com) and Famaga (http://www.famaga.ch).

[grabera7]

Dream-builder some kind of an ad account?