Back to the Body Work Thing

[skullandbones]

I've done things a little different from the crowd, I think. There may be others who have taken my route but I haven't heard any chatter about it. So I'm assuming I'm alone.

Basically, I filled the cleaned and filled the parting lines on my MKIII with a couple of rounds of body filler and smoothed it down. Then I painted the whole thing with "hot rod" primer. I've been driving that way for a little over 1000 miles. It really is hard to get back to work after you've been exposed to driving this thing. But I have to get paint on it soon. So I started a few days ago with the orbital sander and took off the primer coat. I had almost forgotten what the filler pattern looked like but I could pretty much feel the defects which are mostly flat spots in the fair curve. I started on the nose as that is the most noticeable place on the car and worked around the headlights and then along the tops of the fenders back to the wind screen. So now I have sort of reached a dilemma that I wasn't expecting. I seem to have a pretty nice curve on the areas that were obviously not right. It's gotten to the point where now I can't really tell if I have a defect or not. I have used two or three thin filler coats and in some places a putty coat on the edges that seems to really help. But my problem is now I can't really tell if it is perfect or if there is still a small area to work some more. Part of the problem is I haven't sanded with fine enough paper to make the entire surface feel the same. So I guess the friction can change from point to point on the curve. It's hard to tell how smooth it really is. I'm going to sand the entire area with 220 and then 320 and give it a primer coat hoping that will at least make the surface feel consistent.

So my question and request is: do any of your body guys out there have any tricks to help when the body work starts to get to the point where you just can't feel the flat spots any more? (How do you know when to quit?) I was considering painting the surfaces with gloss black after the primer as black reveals all bad things. But I don't know if it is time to do that yet. I might have a heart attack if I get to much "bad news". BTW, I haven't done any wet sanding yet.

Thank you in advance,

WEK.:cool::cool:

[Boz1911]

I'm no body man at all, but what about sanding using the 3m guide coat. That's my plan at any rate.

[68GT500MAN]

Apply a "mist coat" of the 3m guide coat and then sand using as long of a board as possible. The low spots will still show black.
Doug

[skullandbones]

This is the first I have heard of this product. I went to the web to observe a video and after seeing it still didn't really see how the guy used it to find irregularities. It looked like a perfect flat panel he was applying it on and may have been just to show how the step by step process flows. So I will have to find one that explains and demonstrates how it actually works on some real defective body work.

Doug: how do you apply that "mist coat"? I saw an application system and also a hand applied version like turtle wax. Do you mean just a light even coat on the panel? As I understand, it is a dry product with no solvent. So it should not interfere with the primer or other products I'm using.

I guess I will have to give this a try. Thanks, WEK.

[amasciarelli21]

I use a spray can (SEM) but I know eastwood also has a spray can of guide coat. I,ve never used the powder version but I guess it may be easier to sand off. Either way it works great to find low (and or) high spots.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Bill,
Way too much to type. Why don't you give me a call (812)327-zero393. I'm on Eastern Daylight time.

Jeff

[Gumball]

Definitely do a guide coat, but for "feeling" the irregularities, a body guy taught me to use a paper towel between my hand the surface... you'd be amazed how much more you can feel as you slide that around.

[skullandbones]

OK. I am amazed! It actually works, that is, the paper towel between the hand and the body work. It must dial down the sensitivity of your touch as when I was doing it directly there is a lot of feedback that is distracting such as different textures with the various layers. The paper towel helps to let you concentrate just on the change in surface. I'll add this to my bag of tricks. Thanks, Chris.

One tool that has helped me make the curves more consistent is a 16x2.75 flexible board with fore and aft handles. It's also cut down the sanding time after filling with some good quality paper that really moves the material out quickly. It's made it easier to do multiple thin passes without working myself to death from application to application. I shouldn't complain as that's helped me to get to this point. It looks pretty good but it becomes harder and harder to read as to what to do next.

[OnyxCobra]

this thread (although very long) has some great info on blocking and panel prep - it goes into great length and heaps of pictures, it may help a little

http://www.r3vlimited.com/board/showthread.php?t=148000

Matt

[pjdavis]

When I began my final prep before painting - I used the guide coat and only sanded with a block. And being a bit impulsive I have purchased probably most of the various types of blocks out there. Flexible, stiff, long, short, curved, etc....Just experiment - go slowly check results.

As far as the rounded tops of the fenders - especially the front - I just wasn't satisfied that I brought the right radius back after filling. I read a about a trick on this forum - I tired it and bingo - perfect!

The trick. Top of Fenders - once filler is mixed spread with a hacksaw blade ( I wrapped mine in wax paper ) - apply filler very lightly when conventional spreader - then rest blade on its side on top of fender so that it forms the curve and draw it along the top - either toward the front or the back - make sure it is a fairly thin layer - after it sets up - use a very soft block or rubber pad - something that will curve within your palm and sand diagonally across the top of your fender - in a crisscross pattern - go gently and continually check work. It got quick, clean results. Prior to this methods I kept filling and sanding with the same flat spotted results.

PJ

[skullandbones]

PJ,

I have done what you did with a flexible French curve that did a pretty good job but I think the hack saw blade is probably better. I also should have considered a sail batten which can have the same springy effect as the blade. I have been using a flexible board and doing the exact same technique as you suggested by using diagonal strokes while shaping the board to the fender round (multiple curve). It really helped to get it in the ball park so to speak. I haven't done the rear yet but I will use whatever technique seem to work the best in those areas. I already feel like I have gotten a good bite on this project as the rear is not nearly the size of the front part. But I still have a few more thin coats to do there. Thanks for the ideas. WEK.

[skullandbones]

I primered the tops of the fenders, headlights, and nose before I thought to take a picture (darn). I guess there will be other photo opps. BTW, I think it is much better than before but I'm still not sure how good. I will do some light sanding to see if the primer will reveal any low or flat spots. If I was painting this car white, I might be tempted to sand and paint but that's not the case. I think I'm going to get some unbiased opinions from friends on the condition of the front. See if they can tell any better than I.

WEK.

[skullandbones]

Bodywork is no where near as much fun as working on the engine or some of the other small project on the roadster. But it has to be done. I guess you could say I've reached another milestone. I did another round of bodywork (body filler, glazing putty, etc......) and just couldn't make any more progress that I could really measure. I've taken some of the guess work out by using the long board for more consistent curves. I finally gave up and painted the whole thing with jet black lacquer. It still isn't cut (orange peel) but it has already revealed a number of "defects" that I can work on during the next few weeks. I learned this from an old body guy. I think there were not as many tools to use for that process. I know it's real old school but I think it will work as I can hone in on the problem area which are a lot smaller than when I started on the last round of work. I have many pinholes, scratches and still some filler lines where I have not quite feathered out the edges enough. But that was part of the problem as it got harder and harder to tell if I had done enough. Now I can see how much more is needed. In most cases, it will be a layer of glazing putty and blocking and then maybe one more just for good luck. The thing is after observing this in black, you can see everything that is wrong down to the tiniest flaw. I like to make look on the bright side with this process. Every flaw I fix is one I don't have to go back to later. Hopefully, in a few weeks I will have a near perfect body in a coat of black. I am thinking the "check coat" as I call it is an amateurs way of getting around the lack of experience that a pro would have amassed over the years. It really is serving more than the one purpose. I will eventually have a solid black undercoat for the base coat. Also, as some have mentioned, the black coat will serve as a protection from damage underneath that might show thru (light). This is definitely not the standard operating procedure for this process but it gives me a good stopping point before attacking it again with renewed energy. Hey, it looks somewhat better than the primer. I will have to wait a couple of days to cut and polish so it will look better as it is still a little soft (better just for looks and better to see the flaws). Also, it's funny how black makes the car look tiny!

Wish me luck as this is really a challenging part of my build.

Thanks,

WEK.

[skullandbones]

Finally got a chance to compound and polish the paint and it looks pretty good compared to the primer that was on it before this session. It gives me a stopping point so I can concentrate on something else like my interior for a while. Later, I will get back to the third session of body work and hopefully the last one before a real paint job. I want to get the body as good as possible so patience will have to prevail this time.

I like the idea of a black car but the reality of it is: I don't want one. It's just too much work here in AZ. We live at the end of the road with dirt on about the last 30 feet leading to our house and black is just not practical. But here are a few of the pics after polishing.

Thanks,

WEK.

[riptide motorsport]

Bodywork looks great....sent to final coat!

[skullandbones]

Your enthusiasm is appreciated but the result would not be any better than this "check coat". But it is prettier than before so I guess I'm making progress. Want that body to be as close to perfect as I can.

Thanks,

WEK.

[Walt]

WEK , are you using regular bondo on the the area where you took the mold ridge down?

[skullandbones]

Walt,

I am using the Evercoat Light Weight Fiberglass Filler. I have a MKIII and was expecting canyons when I ground down the seams. However, I had almost no voids with occasional pinholes. I used a small needle and syringe with fiberglass resin and filled the bad places. After that, I cleaned the raw areas and applied the filler directly to the former ridges. I have used thin coats of filler and usually leave some time between coats. The body sat for 2 years in the AZ elements so I think it is cured by now. I raced and maintained a J24 racing sail boat for several years. The class was extremely tough so we had to get the hull slick as goose s*** to gain any advantage possible. So I learned the hard way, the exotic methods such as West System, etc... don't always work as well as the cheaper old school ways . I have found that the biggest enemy is contamination and moisture. So that's what I concentrate on more than anything to avoid issues. Thankfully, AZ environment is a natural oven taking most of the moisture out of the fiberglass. Hope that helps.

WEK.

[dhungerf]

Hey WEK:

What you have looks pretty good but I didn't see that you gouged out the seams. did you grind the gel coat out of the seams? you need to go pretty deep (take a look thru my blog). If you didn't do it, you might get some bleed thru over time and the seams might show up.

[skullandbones]

I read where some people "gouged" out the seams to make a valley. I did not do that because when I grinded the seams all the gel coat was excavated before I got that deep (only had minimal voids and pinholes). What I noticed on mine is the way the panels were mis-aligned so that one is high. The two curves seem to be compatible but just not even. That leaves room to cover the seams with filler. I'm not worried about the filler shrinking to show the seam line. I am leaving a black "under coat" to give the base coat a consistent color surface so there won't be any shadowing that might show through the base coat. Call me paranoid! Also, I have heard that a black under coat will help in case you get star burst damage on the underside from rocks (showing thru the base coat). Many of my friends have had multiple engine changes and one even rebuilt his from scratch after totaling it. So people will say, "oh yeah, his is the one with all the different paint jobs". I plan on flipping the front end and some other body mods, along the way. That's one of the sexiest things about the coupes. Hey, thanks for your input. Aren't we having fun?

Thanks,

WEK.

[Walt]

Thanks, I went a local paint supply and told him what I was doing ,he sold regular two part body filler and that's what I've used it seems to be working good, I have done a little body work on metal just was surprised he had me use what he sold me.
Walt

[skullandbones]

Walt,

What is it exactly?

[Walt]

Its feather rite by USC just says its quality lightweight autobody filler