View Full Version : Oil Cooler Pancake
I know there is some issue with room for the oil filter to be located on the block (as is standard) because it may not have enough space because of the headers. I'm planning on a 351W Dart block with an oil cooler and the stainless steel pipes that come with the kit. I'd like to use a pancake adaptor between to run the oil to the cooler (e.g., http://www.breezeautomotive.com/details.php?prod_id=891). Am I going to have enough space? I'd like to avoid a remote oil filter for maintenance/reliability reasons.
Thanks!
DaleG
03-11-2014, 10:03 PM
Call Mark at Breeze and find out; he's sure to know.
Bob Cowan
03-11-2014, 11:02 PM
Yes, if you're using the 4x4 headers from FFR, there's plenty of room for a standard filter and an adapter. An extra long filter would come pretty close to the frame rail.
Avalanche325
03-12-2014, 09:37 AM
Unless it is a track car, I would have it thermostatically controlled. You don't want your oil temp too low which can happen on the street with a full flowing oil cooler. Or, if it for looks, you could use it for a power steering cooler.
Unless it is a track car, I would have it thermostatically controlled. You don't want your oil temp too low which can happen on the street with a full flowing oil cooler. Or, if it for looks, you could use it for a power steering cooler.
And how is that controlled?
And how is that controlled?
Woop, found my answer: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-15702/overview/make/ford
Woop, found my answer: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/der-15702/overview/make/ford
But, I guess that brings me to my next question:
Is there an advantage of the Canton oil cooler thermostat over the sandwich type that has an integral thermostat? https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/product/22-480/22-480----OIL-COOLER-THERMOSTAT/
As far as I can tell, with the Canton type, I'd still need a sandwich plate (but without the thermostatic valve, of course) and run oil to the thermostat mounted in the engine bay, and then run oil lines from the thermostat to the oil cooler. If the engine oil isn't hot enough (215F), then the thermostat sends oil back to the engine without sending it through the cooler. Once the oil temp reaches 215F, the oil is directed by the thermostat through the cooler, then to the engine.
One advantage I can see of the Canton type is the temperature at which the oil is sent to the cooler, 215F, as opposed to most of the sandwich types that route oil to the cooler at about 180F (I saw one that was at 200F, but I'm not sure it would fit the 351W engine). I'd rather just have a sandwich type that operates at 215 as opposed to having to pipe in the oil thermostatic valve in (partly for looks, but mostly because I don't want to add any more connectors in the oil system than I have to because I'm worried about leaks/failures).
So, to make a long question short, are there sandwich plates with thermostatic valves that operate at 215F or slightly more? Are there other advantages of the Canton valve that I don't know about?
Thanks for bearing with me on this.
Bob Cowan
03-12-2014, 01:09 PM
I sed a billit alum sandwich type thermostat. I thnik it was made by Earls or Russell. Worked just fine, and saves weight bulk, and money.
I sed a billit alum sandwich type thermostat. I thnik it was made by Earls or Russell. Worked just fine, and saves weight bulk, and money.
This is the way I would like to go. I'm just worried that if the thermostat is set too low (as in every sandwich type I've seen), the engine oil won't get hot enough to work properly on the street (especially on cool days).
This is the way I would like to go. I'm just worried that if the thermostat is set too low (as in every sandwich type I've seen), the engine oil won't get hot enough to work properly on the street (especially on cool days).
Not to throw another wrench into this, but I'm assuming that the optimal oil temperature is something a little above 212F (boiling point of water). Is this assumption wrong?
Bob Cowan
03-12-2014, 10:38 PM
This is the way I would like to go. I'm just worried that if the thermostat is set too low (as in every sandwich type I've seen), the engine oil won't get hot enough to work properly on the street (especially on cool days).
Yes, that's exactly what happens. But probably for a different reason than you think.
When the thermostat is closed, it directs about 10% of the oil through the cooler, and bypasses the rest. As the thermostat opens, that ratio gradually reverses. When the thermostat is fully open, it bypasses about 10% back to the engine, and routes the other 90% through the cooler. The reason for this is to allow all of the oil to warm up at the same time. You wouldn't want the thermostat to open and have a slug of cold oil hit your engine while driving down the road. That would be bad.
Because of the cold oil moving through the cooler, it can take forever for the oil to warm up on the street. All thermostats will act this way. It's especially bad on the street because the rpm's are relatively low. Oil is heated by sustained high rpm's.
For this reason, oil coolers are not recommended unless the car is regularly going to be used for road racing.
Not to throw another wrench into this, but I'm assuming that the optimal oil temperature is something a little above 212F (boiling point of water). Is this assumption wrong?
That is another common misconception. It is assumed that in order for water to evaporate from the oil, it must be above 212*, the boiling point of pure water. This is clearly not true. If it was true, your kitchen floor would never dry. Water will evaporate at any temperature above 32*. It just happens faster as the temps rise.
I'd bet that the oil in the average DD almost never exceeds 212*. And yet, water in the crank case is generally not a problem; unless the car is only driven for frequent very short trips.
As to the optimal temp of motor oil, it depends on the oil. Racing oil is designed to work best at temps higher than street oil, simply because that's the expected operating parameter. Unfortunately, trying to find that specific piece of information is very difficult. Oil makers just won't tell you. FWIW, it is generally accepted that optimal temp is 180-200*F.
My car gets as much street time as it does track time. It's it not uncommon to leave my house with air temps in the 30's. I could get the water temp to come up by covering part of the radiator with duct tape. But the oil would never warm up, not matter how I covered the oil cooler. So I separated the oil cooler circuit, and used an electric pump. I turn the pump on for track use, otherwise I leave it off.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/bobcowan/OilCoolerPan02small.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/bobcowan/media/OilCoolerPan02small.jpg.html)
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a256/bobcowan/OilCoolerPump04small.jpg (http://s13.photobucket.com/user/bobcowan/media/OilCoolerPump04small.jpg.html)
For this reason, oil coolers are not recommended unless the car is regularly going to be used for road racing.
Is this true regardless of engine? For example, I'll have a 351W Dart block bored to 427. My thinking is that the more displacement on the 351 blocks, the quicker they'll get hot. Maybe too hot. Especially driving on the interstate with sustained high revs. And especially on hot summer days. Is this something I shouldn't be worried about? If I put an oil cooler on, will I be doing more harm than good?
Bob Cowan
03-13-2014, 05:12 PM
Pretty much true for all water cooled engines. On the street in moderate use, you just don't run enough rpm's to heat the oil up significantly.
The Dart block is slightly better at keeping the oil cool than a stock block. I think mostly because the main crank journals are smaller, bearing surface speeds are slower, and it has an overall improved oiling and cooling system.
If you really think you need an oil cooler on a street car, you're much better off to use a heat exchanger instead. Ford uses a heat exchanger on a few of their engines. My Dodge pick up uses one for the transmission.