Buy Engine vs. Build Engine

[Jazzman]

I have many goals related to my yet unbegun project to build a Roadster. One of those goals is to learn as much as I can about every aspect of not only my Roadster, but my other vehicles as well. Toward that end, I have been debating the relative merits of building an engine vs. buying a completed one. Now lets be clear: I have never built any engine, I have only seen the inside of my Harley motor when it was being completely rebuilt by someone else (another long, expensive, story, but I digress.) and the closest I have been to tearing an engine apart was when I rebuilt the carburetor on my 67 Cougar. (I did do all the body work on that one, and it came out great!!) I was 24, and my friend said that two reasonably intelligent college students could rebuild our carbs ourselves. We got them to run, but had to have someone else to tune them up.

I know that there are many places I can buy a complete engine, with all the specifications I could possibly imagine. However, I would learn nothing from that exercise. I have the following questions for you, the brain-trust of my future endeavor:

How reasonable is it to start with nothing but a block and build the engine up from the very beginning?

I suspect that it is more expensive to build an engine than it is to buy a complete one. How much more expensive? or am I wrong?

Since Gordon Levy's shop is relatively close, I have debated asking him, but did not want to take advantage of him. He was very kind and invited me to come down and visit his shop, (I still plan to do so) but since he builds engines (and is greatly respected for it!!) I didn't want to insult him by asking such a newbie question.

Be kind, but be honest. As an educational endeavor, should I even consider building my own engine? Is there anyone else out there who built their own engine? How did it go, and does it GO now?

Thanks for your sage counsel.

Jazz

[FFRSpec72]

How reasonable is it to start with nothing but a block and build the engine up from the very beginning?

So recommend the build approach, as I build an engine every year, I start with a block and build from there, since mine is a challenge car I have to only use certain parts, so nothing really out there, stock block, etc. with Trickflow Top end, 330rwhp. Find a good machine shop you can trust. Talk to machine shop about the internals you want to use, get their opinion. Get a ball park price on machine shop service and labor for assembling. You will have un in the process!

[Bob Cowan]

It is definitely cheaper to buy a crate engine than to build it yourself. But it's certainly more fun to build it yourself. I found the engine build to be more fun than the rest of the car.

- Start with complete engine - oil pan to intake, clutch to water pump. That way you have every little part, bracket, clip, and fastener that you need. even though some of them will be replaced.

- If you're going EFI - which I highly recommend - get the complete harness and ECU as well.

- As you take the engine apart, take a lot of pictures, mark everything, and put all fasteners and small components in large zip lock bags. Only use the large bags, it's easier to find stuff later. Label each bag carefully.

- Only buy quality replacement parts. They don't need to be unobtanium top shelf stuff (Unless you're racing). But you don't want the cheapest oil pump you can find, either. Stay away from Pro-Comp and their affiliates like Speedmaster.

- Buy parts that fit together. Meaning stock heads and intake with a giant cam is not a good fit.

- Buy a couple of good books, and study them.

- Buy the special tools you need - torque wrench, ring compressor, valve spring micrometer, etc. And get good ones, don't cheap out. A torque wrench doesn't have to be top of the line Snap-On. But shouldn't be $5 at K-Mart, either.

- Take your time, don't get in a rush. Know what each component does, and how it fits in the big picture.

- Hang around here a lot. Read all the engine threads. Learn to use the "search' function. Ask any questions you have. Pictures usually help.

The thing I like about an engine build is that it's quiet and meticulous work. Everything has to be just right. Turn on some music, relax. Take one step at a time. Focus on what you're doing. Get lost in the activity for a couple of hours. It's a great way to end a rough day at work.

When you hear that roar for the first time, you will be a very happy and proud man.

[CraigS]

Get a couple of books about building Ford engines and read them and highlight a lot. Look at crate engines and the lists of components. You could even simply duplicate one if you want. I would buy a stroker kit for your block so that way you know you have crank, rods and piston that all work together. Many of those suppliers will also supply a flywheel and dampner and will balance all the parts before they ship to you. Looking at heads,keep it simple. Buy a mild head from one of the major suppliers. Many will assemble the valves, springs etc for you so you have a head ready to bolt on the block. Edelbrock (and maybe others) offer kits that include heads, a cam, manifold etc like these.
http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive_new/mc/power_package/tek_ford.shtml
The combustion chamber volume needs to be chosen to match the pistons in your stroker kit. Most of the kits provide compression ratio charts for the common head sizes so matching isn't too hard.
Start w/ a 351 rather than 302 because a nice mild easy to drive 351 is 400 hp (see one of the Edel kits in the link) and the 351 can go to 408 CI and 500hp easily. Good luck

[Dan Babb]

You could go part of the way and learn a lot.

Buy a good used 5.0. Take your time and tear it down. Then bring the parts to a machine shop and have them build up to the short block. Maybe get the parts to make it a 331 or 347 stroker so you get more power out of it. Then when you get it back, install the cam, lifters, heads, rockers, pushrods, front cover, water pump, pan and upper intake setup.

You'll have the satisfaction of assembling your motor, but the confidence that a pro with the knowledge and right tools put the internals together. That's what I've done a couple times now.

[skullandbones]

You could go part of the way and learn a lot.

Buy a good used 5.0. Take your time and tear it down. Then bring the parts to a machine shop and have them build up to the short block. Maybe get the parts to make it a 331 or 347 stroker so you get more power out of it. Then when you get it back, install the cam, lifters, heads, rockers, pushrods, front cover, water pump, pan and upper intake setup.

You'll have the satisfaction of assembling your motor, but the confidence that a pro with the knowledge and right tools put the internals together. That's what I've done a couple times now.

The advice above is good. I tend to agree with Bob on the shortblock. I went with a crate short block and added performance top end that I gathered myself. Every one gets satisfaction in different ways when building these projects. I like to do something I had not done: port the heads. The heads I had were GT40P (pretty good performers). I ported them to match the intake and exhaust components (port matching). This involved hours of work. So since I had built engines before the short block was done by an expert and I got to build a set of heads which I had not done. If you find a good machinist you can trust you will be miles ahead of the game. The thing about building the short block is that it is tedious and is not a forgiving process. If you take your time and break it down to it's subprocesses, then it is much less intimidating and doable for an amateur. I was not willing to take the extra time for the short block build as I have not done it for a while and my build was slow enough without that added. If your plan allows for the extra time, you may love it! Read as much about it as you can.

Good luck,

WEK

[chopthebass]

I was planning to use a Ford Racing 535hp 427 crate engine, but my engine builder here in Calgary is building me a 351W based 427 with more HP for less money. It is probably very satisfying to build your own and get to educate yourself about the whole process, but I'm not that confident.

[Jazzman]

If you find a good machinist you can trust you will be miles ahead of the game.
WEK

SkullandBones: Can you or your friends recommend a good machine shop in our area?

Thanks to all for your supportive comments. I am really impressed with the helpfulness and support of all of you! Thanks!

Jazz

[Blue MK3]

Everybody has a dream about building their car. I did too. Then reality set in and I bought a completed car. I drove it home the day I bought it and have never regretted it.

Buy a crate engine from a reputable builder and move on. As stated by you and others, it's cheaper. And you'll end up with a better product. Based on your experience (or lack thereof), I question whether you have the equipment or knowledge to properly build and engine. Do you have a block boring machine, milling machine, lathe? Not to cast disparaging remarks about your mechanical ability, because I don't have it either. But I do know just enough to get me into trouble. Sounds as if you have the fundamental mechanical knowledge but not the experience.

Based on what you plan/want to do, think about this. Can you assemble the appropriate parts to get what you want? Can you true the heads and block, balance the crank and pistons and rods, install the correct cam, lifters, etc.? The list goes on and on. Even with your plan, it seems as though you're going to be hauling your block and other parts from shop to shop to have the required work done. So you're really not building your own engine; you're subbing the build out to various shops and hoping the instructions you give each are compatible with those you gave the previous shop.

So why not let one shop do it all? Talk to Gordon or other sponsors, buy a crate engine, and concentrate on building the rest of the car. There's enough work there to keep you busy.

My $0.02 :)

[skullandbones]

SkullandBones: Can you or your friends recommend a good machine shop in our area?

Thanks to all for your supportive comments. I am really impressed with the helpfulness and support of all of you! Thanks!

Jazz

Jazz,

I will inquire. The one I use is very local to me and not the least bit convenient for you. You would be making frequent trips to and from the shop depending on how hands on your build is. I will check around. There are guys all over the valley in AZ Cobras so I know there has to be a favorite shop out there.

See ya,

WEK.

[Tocoti]

I would love to build my own but I like the 2 yr 24 warranty. I don't build engines every day. I have built them in the past but it's not something I do every day. The people that build engines know what to look out for, little tricks, this always happens... And it's going in this Saturday. :)

[CraigS]

I can understand being intimidated or just not wanting to spend the time learning. I had someone else work on something in our house about three years ago for the first time in 20 years. We needed a new heatpump, my brother told me about a friend who had done his own, but I decided I just didn't want to spend the time to learn enough to do it myself. We are happy w/ that decision as our well recommended AC guy suggested a few very worthwhile upgrades that have really proven out. He also recommended against the top of the line (and more expensive unit) because it had only been out for a year and he hadn't installed enough to have any feedback. So go w/ your gut and we can help you either way.

[edwardb]

For both my Mk3 and Mk4 build's I wanted to do the engine myself. Not because it's necessarily any cheaper. But just for the enjoyment and satisfaction. But I don't claim to be an expert and had only done several serious engine jobs before. Including a Honda 90 in high school that was a dismal failure. But that's another story. What I decided was that I would split the difference. Had a machine shop do the short block on my Mk3, and a well known engine builder (FordStrokers) do the short block on my Mk4. I decided that things such rings, main and and rod bearings, etc. all require near perfection and I just didn't want to take a chance. Bolting on heads, intake, setting up the cam and valve train, front accessories, etc. were all manageable and I could learn. Worked for me, and had a great time in both cases. So I'm agreeing with some of the others who recommended a short block. This is the part in my Mk4 build thread where I finished the 347:

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?8296-Mk4-7750-Build-Progress-Update&p=134308&viewfull=1#post134308

[JKolbfleisch]

I disagree that building your own engine is more expensive than purchasing a crate. The problem is when building it themselves, most feel the need to upgrade every single nut, bolt, bearing and seal to the top of the line. Those crate motors don't have billet 1500HP rated rods ... but custom-builts seem to think they need that. Obviously nobody has the equipment in their garage for the machine work needed, so that gets outsourced ... but use the same components as the crate builders and you'll save a reasonable amount of $$ assembling yourself.

But EdwardB has the right idea. A pre-assembled shortblock is probably the best route for most hobby mechanics. You can sleep easy at night knowing the bottom end is tight and you still get the enjoyment of assembling the bulk of everything else.

[Bren]

So, Jazz, it sounds like we're at the same cross road. I did some quick research, and here's what I've got. (By the way, this is based on a 427, because that's my goal for my project) (Also, these are rounded numbers)

Ford Racing 427 Short Block crate engine: $9,300 (steel block), $14,000 (aluminum block)
Cobra Engines 427 Long Block (complete) engine: $13,900 (http://www.fordcobraengines.com/engine/427w-stroker-cobra-kit/)

Build your own short block with standard parts (i.e., not top of the line): $10,000 (aluminum block)
Build your own long block with decent carb/intake: $12,000

I got these numbers from creating a parts list (below) and then doing a quick search on Summit Racing to see what a standard price was - NOT the best price and NOT the best parts. These numbers seems way off (unless the amount of labor that goes into building these monsters makes up the difference), maybe you guys can tell me the parts I'm missing or the prices that are too low.


Short Block Parts List:

Aluminum Block $5,500
heads $560
pistons, crank shaft, rods, rings, bearings $1,755
oil pump $80
camshaft and hydraulic lifters $200
pushrods $80
timing chain and gear $80
timing cover $130
valve cover $200
water pump $300
distick tube $10
harmonic balancer $300
pulley set $240
oil pan $50
rockers $400


For complete engine, add:

alternator $160
distributor $280
carburetor $580
intake manifold $639

Based on this, I'm considering building my own, but hopefully you guys can set me straight and tell me where I went wrong/what I'm missing.

Thanks, and I hope this helps, Jazz.

[skullandbones]

Balancing and "blue printing" the engine is one aspect that is difficult to weigh (ha!) when you are estimating the cost of building as opposed to a pre assembled crate engine. First how much effort did the crate builder take to balance the rotating assembly and the other labor intense steps of ring clearance (0 or what spec) and filing the ring edges, bearing clearances (plastigage during assembly or other electronic method), crank and rod lash, degreeing the cam, and on and on....... . I would ask each builder what they do to make the engine better like an itemized list of processes they perform. I wouldn't assume that it is done just because it was built in a shop. So if you compare a well built crate engine with a home built version where many of those steps are not taken then the crate engine is "cheaper". There are builders of engines on this forum who are not "professional" but they put just as much effort into making the project perfect as they do for the rest of the build. You should check out some of those projects. I think at the end of the investigation you will come to the conclusion that getting a pre assembled short block is your best investment.

WEK.

[OVCobra]

Bren/Jazz
With respect to parts to build your own, its the little things that can add up to quite a bit more;
Full gasket set
Flywheel (need it for balancing)
Bellhousing backing plate
Full build fasteners (oil pump to block, oil pump pickup, oil pan, main bolts/studs, balancer bolt, flywheel bolts, head bolts/studs, timing cover bolts, intake bolts/studs, timing cover bolts, valve cover bolts/studs, distributor bolt/stud, timing cover bolt)
Timing tab/marker
Oil pump driveshaft
Spark plug wire & spark plugs
Alternator mounting brackets
Freeze and block plugs

I think your cost of heads is rather low...decent set of heads (to feed a 427) will likely be between $1,500 & $2,000

As skullandbones points out, the machining/blueprinting of the block/rotating assembly needs to be considered (assuming the cylinders have been bored/honed to size);
zero decking the block to match rotating assembly
possible align honing mains
installing cam bearings
rotating assembly balance
block clearancing for rotating assembly

Generally, I think you will find crate short/long blocks will be less expensive (if you truly compare all components/costs). The downside of a long block is that it can limit the selection of components; the recommendation to purchase a short block maximizes this flexibility (you can select any combination of valvetrain components, cylinder heads, fastener type (bolts vs. studs), oil pan, intake etc.)

My buck-and-a-half,

Dave