Three Bolts: Mk 4 Roadster Build

[carbon-12]

Last weekend, I received my Mk 4 Roadster kit. It was great to see the chassis sitting on jack stands in my garage, with all the parts boxes piled up next to it. Even though I'm just getting started on my build, I've been getting ready for a couple months, and I've been documenting my efforts at this website.

http://threebolts.com

I'll post to this thread when I make progress updates to my site. You can also follow @threebolts on Twitter to receive updates that way.

[montyals]

The first pic are the brackets to mount the radiator fan to its enclosure. Second pic is the bracket used to secure the fuse box to the chassis (under driver side dashboard area). Third pic (if I recall correctly) are used when securing the rear end to the chassis.

[greenbaygreg]

Hi Jim, I like how you got yourself prepared for your build. My ship date is Mar. 29. I will use Stewart also. I live outside of Chicago. My garage is ready and will build a body buck on stilts. I hope to follow your thread all the way through. Good luck, Greg

[WIS89]

Jim-

Best of luck with your build. I look forward to following along via your site!

Can't wait to see your progress.

Regards,

Steve

[Walt]

I also wish you luck on your build, hope I get my kit soon, its late.

Walt

[jayguy]

Great start, love the blog.

[DaleG]

For your next build, keep all the parts in the numbered boxes they came in until you check and label each item in each box; this process of elimination helps in identifying those phantom parts.

Cheers, Dale

[carbon-12]

Choosing Custom Parts (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/3/choosing-custom-parts)

When I attended the Factory Five Racing Build School this past December, the teachers offered suggestions about parts from third-party vendors which augment or replace kit parts. Since I took the class, I've made some buying decisions, and in this post on threebolts.com (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/3/choosing-custom-parts), I talk about the custom parts I've chosen.

25891 (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/3/choosing-custom-parts)

[carbon-12]

By the way, my name is Ken. Readers of my site may have seen the name Jim as they read through posts, but that was the name of the Stewart Transport truck driver who delivered my kit.

No worries. Thanks for reading and commenting.

Ken

[carbon-12]

The first pic are the brackets to mount the radiator fan to its enclosure. Second pic is the bracket used to secure the fuse box to the chassis (under driver side dashboard area). Third pic (if I recall correctly) are used when securing the rear end to the chassis.

Excellent help. Thanks!

[carbon-12]

For your next build, keep all the parts in the numbered boxes they came in until you check and label each item in each box; this process of elimination helps in identifying those phantom parts.

Cheers, Dale

"For your next build..."

My wife thinks you're funny.

[David Hodgkins]

Choosing Custom Parts (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/3/choosing-custom-parts)

When I attended the Factory Five Racing Build School this past December, the teachers offered suggestions about parts from third-party vendors which augment or replace kit parts. Since I took the class, I've made some buying decisions, and in this post on threebolts.com (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/3/choosing-custom-parts), I talk about the custom parts I've chosen.

25891 (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/3/choosing-custom-parts)

Why don't you describe those parts you chose here instead of making me click though to see what they are, and why you chose them? I understand you have a build site, which is cool, but it's considered bad form to drive users to another site from a forum to read about your thoughts, ideas and solutions. The whole idea of the forum is to share ideas with the community. So instead of links in the body of every post, put a link to your build site in your Signature and use your post for something substantive instead of a link describing content on another site. Maybe copy the post here, for example. Or some variation thereof.

It's a really good post by the way, and the fact that it feature vendors that support this site doesn't hurt! :) I just don't feel like I should have to click through to read it.

:)

[carbon-12]

Why don't you describe those parts you chose here instead of making me click though to see what they are, and why you chose them? I understand you have a build site, which is cool, but it's considered bad form to drive users to another site from a forum to read about your thoughts, ideas and solutions. The whole idea of the forum is to share ideas with the community. So instead of links in the body of every post, put a link to your build site in your Signature and use your post for something substantive instead of a link describing content on another site. Maybe copy the post here, for example. Or some variation thereof.

It's a really good post by the way, and the fact that it feature vendors that support this site doesn't hurt! :) I just don't feel like I should have to click through to read it.

:)

I have my reasons for doing things the way I do.

1. While I think this forum is a wonderful resource, we all know this isn't the only game in town. I know I'm getting into a touchy area, but the facts are as they are. As it stands today, I link to my posts from more than one forum.

2. The content on my site is mine. If I want to mention a vendor who does not support this forum, I am free to do so.

3. In my opinion, the design of information can't be separated from its content. I have full control of how my posts look on my site, including formatting, pictures, typography, etc. That's important to me.

4. I write my site for my enjoyment, and I hope other people enjoy it, too. However, if you don't think my content is worth a click on a link, then don't click. Your time is your own, and you're free to spend it as you like. That goes for everyone here, too. I assure you that my feelings won't be hurt if you don't read my site.

In summary, I would like to continue posting here, and I have no intention to "drive users to another site" for purposes other than those I've just mentioned, i.e. I don't sell ads on my site, or intend to make a business out of my build or my writing. My Roadster is just a hobby. I hope your community is flexible enough to allow me to do things my way, but if not, please say so, and I'll leave you all as you are with no hard feelings.

[carbon-12]

One last point. I don't allow comments on my site in any form, since I want control over every word and pixel which appears there. So, conversations about my posts can only take place outside of my site. I've already had a couple months of wonderful give-and-take with my friends on Facebook, but those conversations are different, since those people know me personally. For the more technical, kit-focused sharing of ideas, this forum could be a place where such information gathers up.

I still hope that can happen, but I realize this forum is not mine, and I don't make the rules. For now, I intend to continue linking to the posts I write on threebolts.com unless you forbid that, in which case, I'd just stop posting here.

[montyals]

I like your site. It's straight forward, easy to read, and informative. The photos are clear and the humor (like identifying the steering wheel) keeps it fun and lighthearted. Keep up the GREAT work! I'll be reading along and following you on your journey.

[Gumball]

Um, yeah, okay... good luck on your build. I think you said all I need to know in posts 13 & 14.

Also, I guess this is my chance to learn how to use the ignore feature, too.

[carbon-12]

Um, yeah, okay... good luck on your build. I think you said all I need to know in posts 13 & 14.

Also, I guess this is my chance to learn how to use the ignore feature, too.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant. I have my own reasons for making a personal website, and I'd like to share it with you here, but in my own way. Perhaps you understood this perfectly, and you don't like it. That's fine. I have no hard feelings towards you.

In the bigger picture, if the community or the administrators don't like the way I post here, I'm happy to leave you all as you are. I don't intend to cause trouble, and you all are obviously doing fine without me and my project.

[jayguy]

I'll be interested to see what you think of your MDS Atomic system once you get the car running. I'm still a couple years away from my own build, but am planning on using one of the EFI systems like that. Still not sure which one though, and more input will help me along.

Your garage cleanup has me looking at my own garage and wishing it was that empty. :) At least right now I can fit 2 motorcycles on my half, along with my tools and parts shelves. And a car still fits on the other side. Maybe I'll have a bigger shop by the time I order my kit.

Good luck with the build, I'll be watching.

[carbon-12]

I'll be interested to see what you think of your MDS Atomic system once you get the car running. I'm still a couple years away from my own build, but am planning on using one of the EFI systems like that. Still not sure which one though, and more input will help me along.


The MSD Atomic EFI is a big question mark for me. From the research I've done, it seems that the returnless setup works much better when the fuel pump is located inside the fuel tank, primarily since the gas acts as a coolant, and this prevents the pump from overheating.

For me, this is still theory. I hope I can get it to work in practice.



Your garage cleanup has me looking at my own garage and wishing it was that empty. :) At least right now I can fit 2 motorcycles on my half, along with my tools and parts shelves. And a car still fits on the other side. Maybe I'll have a bigger shop by the time I order my kit.

Good luck with the build, I'll be watching.


I looked at my cluttered garage for years before doing something about it. The kit made me clean it up. While de-cluttering, I had flashbacks to childhood, when I needed to eat my vegetables to earn a dessert.

[FormulaGod]

Ken,
Don't sweat the members here that feel the need to complain about EVERYTHING, even when that something is YOURS. Run your non-profit, no-vendor, informative and fun blog as you wish. Like you said, if you don't want to click the link-don't. I got about 99% of my car, and am still waiting for a few more items. I picked mine up on 12/22. Did you get everything? I'm still missing the tank straps and a few other odds and ends. Like you mentioned earlier in your post, the alternate parts through aftermarket vendors is plentiful, and quite overwhelming. Good luck on the build, I'm looking forward to following it closely.
Regards,
Paul

[carbon-12]

Ken,
Don't sweat the members here that feel the need to complain about EVERYTHING, even when that something is YOURS. Run your non-profit, no-vendor, informative and fun blog as you wish. Like you said, if you don't want to click the link-don't. I got about 99% of my car, and am still waiting for a few more items. I picked mine up on 12/22. Did you get everything? I'm still missing the tank straps and a few other odds and ends. Like you mentioned earlier in your post, the alternate parts through aftermarket vendors is plentiful, and quite overwhelming. Good luck on the build, I'm looking forward to following it closely.
Regards,
Paul

Thanks, Paul. When I saw "2003 Mercury Marauder...", I knew it was you before I even saw your name. :)

I got most of my parts, but I'm still missing a few things. Like you, it's mostly odds and ends. I was most disappointed that the gauges are still on backorder. I really wanted to see how they look. But, I imagine they'll arrive before I need them.

Ken

[carbon-12]

Right now, I'm in the very early stages of my build, and it's come time to remove the aluminum panels which shipped attached to the chassis. I wrote detailed notes before I began. They are organized according to the table listed on page 26 of my Mk4 Roadster Complete Kit Assembly Manual (Revision 3T, April 2013). For each panel, I give the item number, part number, and description. Then, I note how adjoining panels overlap, indicate over or under relationships for each. If a panel doesn't overlap any others, I note it was “clear”. Also, to correctly orient my directions (top, bottom, left, right), I describe where I was standing and where I was looking.

Only the parts attached to the car when it shipped are included on this list. I'll need to figure out how to overlap the other panels in the kit later on, but I assume that most will lay on top of these panels. We'll see.

I wrote more about the process which led to this list, and how my aluminum "goes to 45" on threebolts.com (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/4/my-aluminum-goes-to-45).



Attached Aluminum Panel List

#10 / 15022: Rear Cockpit Corner, Driver Side
View: standing on the driver side of car, looking toward the rear of the car, with your left hip next to the driver door hinge.
Top-side: clear
Bottom-side: over #31
Left-side: under #12
Right-side: clear

#11 / 15022: Rear Cockpit Corner, Passenger Side
View: standing on the passenger side of car, looking toward the rear of the car, with your right hip next to the passenger door hinge.
Top-side: clear
Bottom-side: over #32
Left-side: clear
Right-side: under #12

#12 / 10823: Rear Cockpit Vertical Wall Behind Seats
View: standing on the driver side of car, looking toward the rear of the car, with your left hip next to the driver door hinge.
Top-side: clear
Bottom-side-right: over #31
Bottom-side-left: over #31
Left-side: over #32
Right-side: over #11

#14 / 12985: Driver Side Dropped Floor.
View: standing on the driver side of car, stooped over looking into the driver cockpit toward the front of the car, with your left hip next to the driver door hinge.
Top-side (toward front of car): under #15
Bottom-side: clear.
Left-side: under #17
Right-side: clear.

#15 / 14733: Driver Footbox, Front Wall, Patch Panel
View: standing with your left hip next to the engine bay facing toward the rear of the car.
Top-side-right: over #18
Top-side-left: over #29
Bottom: over #14
Left-side-upper: under #30
Left-side-lower: over #30
Right-side: over #17.

#17 / 10554: Driver Footbox, Front Walls, Outside
View: standing next to driver side of car facing toward passenger side, with your with your right hip one step back from the driver door hinge.
Top-side: over #18
Bottom-side: over #14
Left-side: under #15
Right-side: clear

#18 / 10858: Driver Footbox, Top Outside Section
View: standing next to driver side of car facing toward passenger side, with your left hand side toward the front of car.
Top-side: under #29
Bottom-side: under #17
Left-side: under #15
Right-side: clear

#19 / 10863: Engine Bay "F" Right
Clear on all sides

#20 / 10864: Engine Bay "F" Right
Clear on all sides

#21 / 15015: Right Footbox, Top/Outside, Passenger
View: standing with your right hip next to the engine bay facing toward the rear of the car.
Bottom-side: under #26
Left-side: over #35
Right-side: over #33

#22 / 15223: Trunk Wall (Driver Side)
View: standing directly behind the car, angled at a 45-degree angle toward the driver side
Top-side: clear
Bottom-side: #23 passes to the side of it, but doesn't overlap, strictly speaking
Right-side: clear

#22 / 15223: Trunk Wall (Passenger Side)
View: standing directly behind the car, angled at a 45-degree angle toward the passenger side
Top-side: clear
Bottom-side: #23 passes to the side of it, but doesn't overlap, strictly speaking
Left-side: clear

#23 / 15222: Rear Trunk Floor
View: standing directly behind the car, facing toward the front.
Top-side: under #25
Bottom-side: clear
Left-side: #22 (driver side) passes to the side of it, but doesn't overlap, strictly speaking
Right-side: #22 (passenger side) passes to the side of it, but doesn't overlap, strictly speaking

#25 / 10560: Front Trunk Floor
View: standing directly behind the car, facing toward the front.
Top-side: clear, but abuts #12 without going over or under
Bottom-side: over #23
Left-side: over #39, and also over an unnumbered free-floating patch panel.
Right-side: over #38, and also over an unnumbered free-floating patch panel.

#26 / 13138: Passenger Footbox, Vertical Wall, Front Wall
View: standing with your right hip next to the engine bay facing toward the rear of the car.
Top-side-left: over #21
Top-side-rightx: over #33
Bottom-side: over #27
Left-side: over #35
Right-side: under #36

#27 / 13634: Passenger Footbox, Dropped Floor
View: standing on the passenger side of car, stooped over looking into the passenger cockpit toward the front of the car, with your right hip next to the passenger door hinge.
Top-side: over #26
Bottom-side: clear
Left-side: over #36
Right-side: under #35

#29 / 10859: Driver Footbox, Top, Inside
View: standing next to driver side of car facing toward passenger side, with your left hand side toward the front of car.
Top-side: under #30
Bottom-side: over #18
Left-side: under #15
Right-side: abut #28

#30 / 10905: Driver Footbox, Vertical Wall, Inside
View: standing on the passenger side of car, looking toward the driver side, with your left hip next to the passenger door hinge.
Top-side: over #29
Right-side-upper: over #15
Right-side-lower: under #15
Bottom-side: over #31
Right-side: under #34

#31 / 10557: Cockpit Floor, Driver Side, w/ Tunnel Wall
View: standing on the driver side of car, facing toward the front of the car, with your right hip next to the roll bar support.
Top-side (toward front of car): mostly clear, except for corner near transmission tunnel, where it goes under #30.
Bottom-side: under #10 and #22.
Left-side: clear
Right-side: mostly clear, except for edge near the front part of the transmission tunnel, where it goes over #34.

#32 / 10558: Cockpit Floor, Passenger Side, w/ Tunnel Wall
View: standing on the passenger side of car, facing toward the front of the car, with your left hip next to the roll bar support.
Top-side: clear
Bottom-side: under #11 and #12
Left-side: clear
Right-side: mostly clear, except for edge near the front part of the transmission tunnel, where it goes over #34

#33 / 10853: Passenger Footbox, Top
View: standing with your right hip next to the engine bay facing toward the rear of the car.
Top-side: clear
Bottom-side: under #26
Left-side: under #21
Right-side: clear

#34 / 12806: Trans Tunnel, Front Vertical Wall
View: standing on the driver side of car, facing toward the firewall, with your right hip next to the roll bar support.
Top-side: clear
Bottom-side: clear
Left-side-inner-bottom-two-thirds in corner near transmission tunnel: under #31.
Left-side-outer: under #31.
Right-side: under #30, and on the very bottom, under #31.

#35 / 10551: Passenger Footbox, Vertical Wall, Outside
View: standing next to passenger side of car facing toward driver side, with your left hip one step back from the passenger door hinge.
Top-side: under #21
Bottom-side: under #26
Left-side: clear
Right-side: over #32

#36 / 13139: Passenger Footbox, Vertical Wall, Inside
View: standing with your right hip next to the engine bay facing toward the rear of the car.
Top-side: under #33
Bottom-side: over #27
Left-side: over #26
Right-side: under #34

#38 / 15403: Outside Trunk Wall, Right
View: standing one step back from the rear passenger-side wheel well, looking toward the driver side
Top-side: clear
Bottom-side: under #25, as far as #25 goes
Left-side: clear
Right-side: clear

#39 / 15402: Outside Trunk Wall, Left
View: standing one step back from the rear driver-side wheel well, looking toward the passenger side
Top-side: clear
Bottom-side: under #25, as far as #25 goes
Left-side: clear
Right-side: clear

#45 / No part number: Panel on passenger side, right above passenger door hinge, next to firewall
Clear on all sides

[2bking]

You have a lot of patience to log the panels that way. Me, I numbered them to identify adjacent panels and just took pictures. But, the best made plans..... the numbers disappeared when I cleaned them so the adjacent panel info was lost. But the pictures still provided the layout.

Nice build site.

[montyals]

Do you have a timeline/timeframe for your build? How long do you anticipate?

[carbon-12]

You have a lot of patience to log the panels that way. Me, I numbered them to identify adjacent panels and just took pictures. But, the best made plans..... the numbers disappeared when I cleaned them so the adjacent panel info was lost. But the pictures still provided the layout.

Nice build site.

I'm not sure if it's patience I have, or just an abnormal tolerance for tedium. :-)

I hope the notes I took will come in handy, but if not, then I can fall back on my pictures, the assembly manual, and the forum.

[carbon-12]

Do you have a timeline/timeframe for your build? How long do you anticipate?

Honestly, I don't know how long my build will take. I hope it will take less than a year, and that doesn't seem ridiculously ambitious to me now, given that I already have a crate engine and a transmission sitting in my garage, and I plan to send out the body work and paint. We'll see. Stay tuned!

[montyals]

Honestly, I don't know how long my build will take. I hope it will take less than a year, and that doesn't seem ridiculously ambitious to me now, given that I already have a crate engine and a transmission sitting in my garage, and I plan to send out the body work and paint. We'll see. Stay tuned!

A year is doable. I had also given myself a year but ended up finishing the car in 5 months. You can see my car in the "license and registration" thread.

[Walt]

Ken, you said you got your kit last weekend ,where might you be and when was your pickup date?
If you dont mind me asking, mine was 1/18 with Stewart picking up week of the 20th.

[carbon-12]

A year is doable. I had also given myself a year but ended up finishing the car in 5 months. You can see my car in the "license and registration" thread.

It looks like you did an illegally good job on your kit. Heh.

[carbon-12]

Ken, you said you got your kit last weekend ,where might you be and when was your pickup date?
If you dont mind me asking, mine was 1/18 with Stewart picking up week of the 20th.

Pickup was 1/12 or 1/13. Delivery was 1/26. I'm in San Jose, CA.

[mike w]

Ken, I really like the way you set up your website with all the links. It gives me the choice to click (or not) depending on what interest I have any particular topic that you post on it. You certaily have alot of patience to write up all this detail. I made sure that I book marked your web site so that I can keep up with your build progess.

Mike

[Walt]

They did good on yours, I'm in NM and last I could find out from ffr, Stewart was supposed to pick up my kit last Friday, I have not heard from anybody if they did or not. Thanks for the info. And I will be watching your build.

Walt

[carbon-12]

Ken, I really like the way you set up your website with all the links. It gives me the choice to click (or not) depending on what interest I have any particular topic that you post on it. You certaily have alot of patience to write up all this detail. I made sure that I book marked your web site so that I can keep up with your build progess.

Mike

Thanks for the feedback. I hope to keep it interesting!

[MPTech]

Might want to add your website link to your sig. (and any other pertinent build info)

[carbon-12]

I intend to powder coat all the aluminum panels in my kit, using the equipment available at the TechShop (http://techshop.ws) in San Jose, CA. I'd never powder coated before this project, and when I took my first batch out of the oven, I saw that I hadn't sprayed enough powder onto the passenger-side "F" panel (which is an upgrade I bought from FFMetal (http://www.ffmetal.com)). This left a speckly finish with some metal poking through.

http://static.squarespace.com/static/5291382ee4b006a2894c9c91/t/52f46a93e4b0374e6a05b607/1391749783075/f-panel-before.jpg?format=400w

I decided to redo this part. This got me thinking about how I spend time, and I talk more about it on threebolts.com (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/6/spending-time).

It took an hour and a half in the sandblaster, but I managed to wipe off my failed effort, and apply a better coat.

http://static.squarespace.com/static/5291382ee4b006a2894c9c91/t/52f46adfe4b086cbdc097326/1391749859669/f-panel-after.jpg?format=400w

[Jeff Kleiner]

Pretty cool that you have access to things like PC equipment nearby!

Maybe you have done so already and I haven't seen the update, or perhaps you prefer to work in a different sequence, but generally the accepted order is to fit, trim &/or bend as necessary and drill the aluminum panels prior to powdercoating so that they can be installed without needing further work thereby minimizing the chances of marring the finish.

Carry on and good luck!

Jeff

[carbon-12]

Pretty cool that you have access to things like PC equipment nearby!

Maybe you have done so already and I haven't seen the update, or perhaps you prefer to work in a different sequence, but generally the accepted order is to fit, trim &/or bend as necessary and drill the aluminum panels prior to powdercoating so that they can be installed without needing further work thereby minimizing the chances of marring the finish.

Carry on and good luck!

Jeff

If I were confident in all the skills I need to do this project, I might do the aluminum work in a different order. As it is, everything I try is pretty new to me, and I admit to feeling a little overwhelmed by all the things I don't know.

So, I decided to start building up my powder coating skills now. I've done only a few parts so far, and the ones I chose are either block-off plates, or are panels which have either no overlaps or simple ones. I hope to take your advice for other panels later on, and do the fitting and drilling before the powder coating.

I plan to do my first drilling and riveting this evening (the "F" panels), and that will be a start on building up those skills. If I discover that some panels need their powder coating redone, I don't mind.

Thanks for the advice.

Ken

[MPTech]

My advice is to fit and temporarily affix all of the panels (cleco while initially fitting, then put a couple metal screws to hold it until later).
Build the entire car to gel-coat / go-kart, then you know exactly where all of the panels go, any cutting required and any additional holes for wires, cables, hoses etc.
Don't rivet or finish anything this early in the build. If you have to remove it, it will be a PITA, you might damage / destroy it, and cutting larger holes or trimming can be damn near impossible while still on the car.
Take it from all of the Reality TV car / chopper build shows, there's a very good reason why they do a full build mock-up, then send everything out for paint & powder-coat.

It's more work & more time, but the end result is a better fit and less damage to finished panels.

A lot of guys (because the manual says so) rivet the F Panels way too early. I had mine on & off over a half dozen times to get access to some areas. What's the hurry? When I was ready for final build, I took them off, sanded, brushed the aluminum on the engine side, coated it with Shark-hide, and coated the tire side with truck-bed liner. Then installed any rivnuts I needed, before final riveting. No way could I have done this if I riveted them when the manual suggested.

It also allowed me to assemble it stock, then determine what I wanted to modify and get better measurements, working with the raw panels, before finishing them and chancing damaging the finish:

Expanded PS Footbox
DS Footbox gas pedal bump out
DS footbox top access panel
Firewall Forward
Rear bulkhead cubby
PS F-Panel mod (no hole)
SS heat-shields
Installing Cobra-Earls vents


One other suggestion: when I took my mock-up panels off, before final silicon/riveting, I made a pattern of each footbox panel with poster board. Then I was able to create my damplifier panels and affix them to the panels before final assembly. And I'll be able to use these patterns also for cutting my carpet when I go to install it after paint. Trying to install the damplifier in a finished footbox is a major PITA.

[carbon-12]

My advice is to fit and temporarily affix all of the panels (cleco while initially fitting, then put a couple metal screws to hold it until later).
Build the entire car to gel-coat / go-kart, then you know exactly where all of the panels go, any cutting required and any additional holes for wires, cables, hoses etc.
Don't rivet or finish anything this early in the build. If you have to remove it, it will be a PITA, you might damage / destroy it, and cutting larger holes or trimming can be damn near impossible while still on the car.
Take it from all of the Reality TV car / chopper build shows, there's a very good reason why they do a full build mock-up, then send everything out for paint & powder-coat.

It's more work & more time, but the end result is a better fit and less damage to finished panels.

A lot of guys (because the manual says so) rivet the F Panels way too early. I had mine on & off over a half dozen times to get access to some areas. What's the hurry? When I was ready for final build, I took them off, sanded, brushed the aluminum on the engine side, coated it with Shark-hide, and coated the tire side with truck-bed liner. Then installed any rivnuts I needed, before final riveting. No way could I have done this if I riveted them when the manual suggested.

It also allowed me to assemble it stock, then determine what I wanted to modify and get better measurements, working with the raw panels, before finishing them and chancing damaging the finish:

Expanded PS Footbox
DS Footbox gas pedal bump out
DS footbox top access panel
Firewall Forward
Rear bulkhead cubby
PS F-Panel mod (no hole)
SS heat-shields
Installing Cobra-Earls vents


One other suggestion: when I took my mock-up panels off, before final silicon/riveting, I made a pattern of each footbox panel with poster board. Then I was able to create my damplifier panels and affix them to the panels before final assembly. And I'll be able to use these patterns also for cutting my carpet when I go to install it after paint. Trying to install the damplifier in a finished footbox is a major PITA.

Wow. Excellent advice. I'm going to read this over again more thoroughly this evening, and change my plans accordingly. Thanks!

[carbon-12]

I wrote a post on threebolts.com (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/8/learning-from-experts-aluminum-edition) about this wonderfully-detailed advice, and how I intend to change my plans for dealing with my aluminum panels.

[Hondros]

Really enjoy your writing style and attention to detail. Keep up the good work!

[MPTech]

Ken,
Thanks! I feel honored that you recognized my suggestions in your post and found them helpful.

Thanks to MPTech on the Factory Five Forum for the advice.
I can tell you that they worked well for me.

I look forward to following your build progress, it's going to be a cool build, I can tell.
I regret that I didn't do a better job of documenting my build, I had a good Build Plan and started a Blog here, but just lost track of documenting it (got too busy building!). :cool: I've got TONs of pictures though.

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. This forum has been invaluable for great information and they are even better at spending your money. :eek:

[carbon-12]

Ken,
Thanks! I feel honored that you recognized my suggestions in your post and found them helpful.

I can tell you that they worked well for me.

I look forward to following your build progress, it's going to be a cool build, I can tell.
I regret that I didn't do a better job of documenting my build, I had a good Build Plan and started a Blog here, but just lost track of documenting it (got too busy building!). :cool: I've got TONs of pictures though.

If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask. This forum has been invaluable for great information and they are even better at spending your money. :eek:

Your detailed advice to me was well worth mentioning! Thanks again!

[carbon-12]

This was a frustrating weekend. I started assembling my front suspension, and I made some decent progress, but nothing went smoothly. Some parts were hard to find, others needed to be fitted, others were missing, and I discovered there were more parts yet to buy. I figured there will be down moments like this—and I was right. That's OK. I have a few problems to solve, and starting tomorrow, I'll tackle them one at a time.

Read the whole story on threebolts.com (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/9/hit-some-snags).

[David Hodgkins]

Read this:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/announcement.php?f=2


Advertising

We want to avoid spam generated by promotion teams, public-relations campaigns or any other traffic-hungry webmasters. So please note that our forums aren’t the place to advertise your own site or forums or sites with similar content to ours. TheFactoryFiveForum staff don’t visit your site and spam it with adverts, so we expect the same courtesy in return. You are welcome to link your site in your signature without a slogan.

If you are part of an automobile type site and you want to link it as a relevant part of a discussion, please contact a moderator first and be honest if it’s your own site.

If you wish to advertise at TheFactoryFiveForum, please contact webmaster@factoryfive.com.

Any forum member who seems to have created their account solely to promote another site will be permanently banned.

[carbon-12]

Read this:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/announcement.php?f=2


Advertising

We want to avoid spam generated by promotion teams, public-relations campaigns or any other traffic-hungry webmasters. So please note that our forums aren’t the place to advertise your own site or forums or sites with similar content to ours. TheFactoryFiveForum staff don’t visit your site and spam it with adverts, so we expect the same courtesy in return. You are welcome to link your site in your signature without a slogan.

If you are part of an automobile type site and you want to link it as a relevant part of a discussion, please contact a moderator first and be honest if it’s your own site.

If you wish to advertise at TheFactoryFiveForum, please contact webmaster@factoryfive.com.

Any forum member who seems to have created their account solely to promote another site will be permanently banned.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I'm not advertising my external site, since I have nothing to sell. I tried to contribute to this community in my way, but I see that you're not interested.

That's fine. Goodbye.

[MPTech]

David,
Asking, not starting an argument.
What did Ken do wrong?? I read the COCA and didn't see any violation.
He's linking to his build page like I've seen many others roadster builds do and see a few of the 818 guys doing as well.


Ken,
Don't get discouraged with your weekend progress, yes it will go like that, parts missing, mis-labeled, wrong size, needing adjustments, or not as the manual describes / illustrates. Take a deep breath, walk away, grab a beer, move on to another project, whatever it takes, but don't get discouraged, give-up, or quit (and don't throw things :rolleyes: (been there too!). You'll figure it out and it will be forgotten as you move on to the next step.
It's ALL fixable and part of the challenge / process. Do a search or post questions here or the other forum. SOMEBODY has probably encountered it before and has a solution. Very few problems are new.

Keep up the good work.

[carbon-12]

David,
Asking, not starting an argument.
What did Ken do wrong?? I read the COCA and didn't see any violation.
He's linking to his build page like I've seen many others roadster builds do and see a few of the 818 guys doing as well.


Honestly, I don't know what I'm doing wrong either, but perhaps I was hasty in just saying goodbye.

OK, I maintain an external site where I'm documenting my work, and I mention this fact, and I link to my site from my posts. But I'm not a vendor of any sort. I have no products to sell or advocate. All I have is my enthusiasm for my kit and the willingness to share it through my writing.

I also realize that I'm joining this community with an already-established culture, and I can imagine that others may attempt to hijack attention away from this forum for their own benefit. I'm not trying to do that. I'm trying to contribute to this community, and I absolutely do not want to start arguments or make waves.

Here's a suggestion. I added a link to my build site in my signature, and I won't link to it again from the body of my posts. This seems a bit odd to me—the web is all about links—but if those are the rules, I'm willing to give it a try.

[carbon-12]

Ken,
Don't get discouraged with your weekend progress, yes it will go like that, parts missing, mis-labeled, wrong size, needing adjustments, or not as the manual describes / illustrates. Take a deep breath, walk away, grab a beer, move on to another project, whatever it takes, but don't get discouraged, give-up, or quit (and don't throw things :rolleyes: (been there too!). You'll figure it out and it will be forgotten as you move on to the next step.
It's ALL fixable and part of the challenge / process. Do a search or post questions here or the other forum. SOMEBODY has probably encountered it before and has a solution. Very few problems are new.

Keep up the good work.

Thanks very much for the encouragement. I plan to make some phone calls right now to start solving these problems. Nothing is broken. I just have a few issues which are going to take a little effort to solve. I'll get it done.

Thanks again!

[ehansen007]

Looks all good! Thanks for putting your URL in your sig line.

e

[carbon-12]

I came out of the weekend of work with a couple problems to solve.

I had to get a replacement for the castle nut which goes on the ball joint for the lower control arm on the front suspension. Factory Five sent me the wrong size. After a phone call to their tech support, and I now have a proper bolt on its way.

During the same call, I asked for some information about the remaining parts I'll need to complete the my pin drive IRS (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/pin-drive-irs) (independent rear suspension). Their best advice was to go to a junk yard and pick the parts off an old car—a 1990-97 Ford Thunderbird is a suitable donor.

However, I'm not going to do this. I have no confidence in my ability to evaluate the differential, mounting hardware, and fasteners hanging off the back of a twenty-year-old car. I need expert help.

I called Mike Forte (http://www.fortesparts.com). As many of you know, he has a lot of experience providing these parts to kit builders, and I asked him to put together a package with all the parts I'll need. He and his workers will do the sourcing and reconditioning of the old parts, and I'm sure they'll do a much better job of it than I would.

So, I'm somewhat back on track. I'll be held up on the front and rear suspension work for a couple of weeks while these parts make their way to me, but in the big picture, it won't make a difference. I'll certainly find other tasks to fill the time.

[Jeff Kleiner]

...I'll certainly find other tasks to fill the time.

You can always start fitting, marking and drilling the cockpit and trunk aluminum panels. Just like eating an elephant; it won't seem as daunting if you just take small bites, one at a time.

Jeff

[chopthebass]

Hey Ken,

I have been following this thread and also a little confused! Anyways, I will be keenly following your build and hope to pick up useful tips along the way.

Ian

[FormulaGod]

You can always start fitting, marking and drilling the cockpit and trunk aluminum panels.
Jeff

I almost wish I wasn't so quick with riveting in my "F" panels on day one of my build. In hindsight, I should have waited until more parts and components started coming together. That silicone is going to be a nightmare to remove. Everything else is gonna head off to powder coat after I mock fit everything. That was step one at the build school right after removing the body. There is plenty of great tips learned at the FF build school, and some things that made me scratch my head. For instance, I would surmise that over half of the builds are going to go with the 302 w/basic components. We installed a Roush equipped bad-boy with an intricate electronic and fuel system. I get that they are a sponsor, but it's always best to go with the majority. Not many people are installing a $15k+ engine.

[carbon-12]

You can always start fitting, marking and drilling the cockpit and trunk aluminum panels. Just like eating an elephant; it won't seem as daunting if you just take small bites, one at a time.

Jeff

Heh. “Eating an elephant.” Yes, putting together this kit is just like that.

I plan to take your advice and move on to aluminum work. Last night, I scanned ahead in the assembly manual past the front and rear end work. Next comes “Firewall & Driver Front Footbox Aluminum”. I'll get started on that work tomorrow night.

Tonight, I have the sandblaster and powder coating oven reserved at the TechShop (http://techshop.ws) in San Jose, CA. I'm going to work on my technique with some test pieces of aluminum.

[carbon-12]

I almost wish I wasn't so quick with riveting in my "F" panels on day one of my build. In hindsight, I should have waited until more parts and components started coming together. That silicone is going to be a nightmare to remove. Everything else is gonna head off to powder coat after I mock fit everything. That was step one at the build school right after removing the body. There is plenty of great tips learned at the FF build school, and some things that made me scratch my head.

Yep, back in reply #38 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=138309&viewfull=1#post138309) on this thread, MPTech said:


My advice is to fit and temporarily affix all of the panels (cleco while initially fitting, then put a couple metal screws to hold it until later).
Build the entire car to gel-coat / go-kart, then you know exactly where all of the panels go, any cutting required and any additional holes for wires, cables, hoses etc.
Don't rivet or finish anything this early in the build. If you have to remove it, it will be a PITA, you might damage / destroy it, and cutting larger holes or trimming can be damn near impossible while still on the car.
Take it from all of the Reality TV car / chopper build shows, there's a very good reason why they do a full build mock-up, then send everything out for paint & powder-coat.


I caught this advice just in time. I only marked and drilled the "F" panels last night, and this was after I had the control arms and shocks mounted up. OK, I needed to remove one bolt from each upper control arm to get my drill in everywhere, but the advice from MPTech implies that we should expect to take things apart and put them back together several times.

Once I had all my drill holes in on the "F" panels, I set a couple clecos, and then attached the panels with screws. It will be easy to take them back off when needed.

I think this is a good way to work with the panels. Leave everything provisional until the last minute, then commit to silicone and rivets.


For instance, I would surmise that over half of the builds are going to go with the 302 w/basic components. We installed a Roush equipped bad-boy with an intricate electronic and fuel system. I get that they are a sponsor, but it's always best to go with the majority. Not many people are installing a $15k+ engine.

I don't know what most people do for engines. I'm going with a 302 myself. I ordered it from The Engine Factory (http://www.fordcratemotors.com/). I got their 302/350 HP Atomic EFI Clutch Package (http://www.fordcobraengines.com/engine/302-efi-clutch-pkg/). It was about $13k.

[David Hodgkins]

This was a frustrating weekend. I started assembling my front suspension, and I made some decent progress, but nothing went smoothly. Some parts were hard to find, others needed to be fitted, others were missing, and I discovered there were more parts yet to buy. I figured there will be down moments like this—and I was right. That's OK. I have a few problems to solve, and starting tomorrow, I'll tackle them one at a time.

Read the whole story on threebolts.com (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/9/hit-some-snags).


Choosing Custom Parts (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/3/choosing-custom-parts)

When I attended the Factory Five Racing Build School this past December, the teachers offered suggestions about parts from third-party vendors which augment or replace kit parts. Since I took the class, I've made some buying decisions, and in this post on threebolts.com (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/3/choosing-custom-parts), I talk about the custom parts I've chosen.

25891 (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/3/choosing-custom-parts)


I wrote a post on threebolts.com (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/8/learning-from-experts-aluminum-edition) about this wonderfully-detailed advice, and how I intend to change my plans for dealing with my aluminum panels.

Emphasis added.

I've been asked in a PM to explain my reasoning why I've given so much "attention" to this thread so I'll try to explain it further.

I have a problem with people who are attempting to drive people another site. Not just mentioning it, but posting so that I can't understand the thread unless I read the other site. It destroys the flow of the thread. I shouldn't have to read another site in order to understand a thread on this one.

Now the next post is not technically against the rules, but the poster did a great job of getting under my skin with his passive aggression, in one of his very first posts. I let this go before, but now I'll let you know what I was thinking when I read these "points" one by one:


I have my reasons for doing things the way I do.

1. While I think this forum is a wonderful resource, we all know this isn't the only game in town. I know I'm getting into a touchy area, but the facts are as they are. As it stands today, I link to my posts from more than one forum.
Like I'm supposed to back off because we're not "the only game in town"? Really??

2. The content on my site is mine. If I want to mention a vendor who does not support this forum, I am free to do so.
People are welcome to mention non-supporting vendors, there's no rule against that, unless it is deemed to be a repeated way to circumvent rules we have regarding posting examples of non-supporting vendors (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?7534-Posting-examples-of-work-by-non-supporting-vendors).

3. In my opinion, the design of information can't be separated from its content. I have full control of how my posts look on my site, including formatting, pictures, typography, etc. That's important to me.
And we want to make sure the threads on this forum make sense, and are not designed to make the reader click out of our site in order to understand it. We're pretty proud of the content here too, especially since an entire community creates it.

4. I write my site for my enjoyment, and I hope other people enjoy it, too. However, if you don't think my content is worth a click on a link, then don't click. Your time is your own, and you're free to spend it as you like. That goes for everyone here, too. I assure you that my feelings won't be hurt if you don't read my site.
I have no problem with this. But AGAIN, if I can't understand a BUILD THREAD because of all the linking to another site, then we have a problem. Read the Code Of Conduct Agreement (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/announcement.php?f=2), where we spell it out.

In summary, I would like to continue posting here, and I have no intention to "drive users to another site" for purposes other than those I've just mentioned, i.e. I don't sell ads on my site, or intend to make a business out of my build or my writing. My Roadster is just a hobby. I hope your community is flexible enough to allow me to do things my way, but if not, please say so, and I'll leave you all as you are with no hard feelings.
So in fact you DO want users to go to your site, but not for the purpose of driving ad revenue. That's fine. Build sites are a great thing, and a great way to document your build. We have forums here for that, and blogs too. But hey, if you're a web guy and want to maintain your own site, great. But don't destroy threads here attempting to get folks to get folks to check out the site or follow you on twitter. This is explained ad nauseum above.


One last point. I don't allow comments on my site in any form, since I want control over every word and pixel which appears there. So, conversations about my posts can only take place outside of my site. I've already had a couple months of wonderful give-and-take with my friends on Facebook, but those conversations are different, since those people know me personally. For the more technical, kit-focused sharing of ideas, this forum could be a place where such information gathers up.
You have your rules, we have ours. This is not a strictly technical forum, and I can assure you many of us have a lot of friends here. There's a lot of humor and sharing of life's events here. Check out Brando's build thread, Mike and Julie's build thread and any of the countless "show n go" threads as great examples of why we self-proclaim ourselves to be one of the best online communities on the 'net.

I still hope that can happen, but I realize this forum is not mine, and I don't make the rules. For now, I intend to continue linking to the posts I write on threebolts.com unless you forbid that, in which case, I'd just stop posting here.
Well, you did change the way you were posting, and are still posting. I appreciate that, and I thank you.


Honestly, I don't know what I'm doing wrong either, but perhaps I was hasty in just saying goodbye.

OK, I maintain an external site where I'm documenting my work, and I mention this fact, and I link to my site from my posts. But I'm not a vendor of any sort. I have no products to sell or advocate. All I have is my enthusiasm for my kit and the willingness to share it through my writing.

I also realize that I'm joining this community with an already-established culture, and I can imagine that others may attempt to hijack attention away from this forum for their own benefit. I'm not trying to do that. I'm trying to contribute to this community, and I absolutely do not want to start arguments or make waves.

Here's a suggestion. I added a link to my build site in my signature, and I won't link to it again from the body of my posts. This seems a bit odd to me—the web is all about links—but if those are the rules, I'm willing to give it a try.

Now, when this was written, and based on feedback I got from other moderators in the Mod forum about you personally, I decided to "let it go". I actually posted a question for you in this thread in an attempt to turn the page (I deleted it temporarily and will re-post it). But I was reminded in a PM that I was admonishing you in one post, and then appeared to completely switch my tone without explanation, so this is my attempt to explain my initial reasoning, and why I decided to drop the issue.

So in short, I see that you have the link in your signature, and that you have been posting in a way that makes it easy to follow along. And I'm good with that.

AND, I'm hoping that this explanation will serve it's purpose for others as to what my reasoning was for my initial intervention and why I now consider the matter closed.

Hopefully this thread can get back on track moving forward and we can all enjoy sharing in your build adventure.

Believe me, and it's been said many, many times before: All the trials, tribulations, drama, blood, sweat and tears will go away the first time you twist the key and hear your monster roar.

:)

[David Hodgkins]

This is the question I posted earlier, and referenced above:

Ken, quick question for you. Are you aware of the difference between standard and pin drive width? I only ask because it will impact your wheel choices. Are you going with pin drive wheels? 15" or 17"? If you are going with pin drive wheels, check out Vintage wheels, a new vendor on the forum.

Good luck with the rest of your build, and keep up the good work.

:)

PS looks like our builds are very much alike. And you're a web guy. We actually have a lot in common! :D

[carbon-12]

So in short, I see that you have the link in your signature, and that you have been posting in a way that makes it easy to follow along. And I'm good with that.

AND, I'm hoping that this explanation will serve it's purpose for others as to what my reasoning was for my initial intervention and why I now consider the matter closed.

Hopefully this thread can get back on track moving forward and we can all enjoy sharing in your build adventure.

Believe me, and it's been said many, many times before: All the trials, tribulations, drama, blood, sweat and tears will go away the first time you twist the key and hear your monster roar.

:)

I appreciate all your feedback, including the parts I'm not quoting in this reply. I understand that it's a difficult job to administer a forum like this one. As for me, I know I make mistakes, but I'm willing to learn, and I have tried to adapt how I use this forum to fit in better with your accepted norms. I guess I got off to a rocky start, but since you now consider the matter closed, so do I.

Back to the kit talk…

[David Hodgkins]

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=26115&d=1392137575

[carbon-12]

This is the question I posted earlier, and referenced above:

Ken, quick question for you. Are you aware of the difference between standard and pin drive width? I only ask because it will impact your wheel choices. Are you going with pin drive wheels? 15" or 17"? If you are going with pin drive wheels, check out Vintage wheels, a new vendor on the forum.

Good luck with the rest of your build, and keep up the good work.

:)

PS looks like our builds are very much alike. And you're a web guy. We actually have a lot in common! :D

I know enough about the difference between standard and pin drive width to get out my credit card, but whether that's been to good effect or not remains to be seen. :)

As for wheels, I have an FIA Pin Drive Wheel Set (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/fia-pin-drive-wheel-set/). I ordered them from Factory Five at the same time as my kit. I had them powder coated black, and I mounted them up with some 15-inch Avon CR6ZZ tires. They're sitting in my garage right now.

I'd be happy to hear feedback on these choices.

26116

[MPTech]

My experience (and I've thoroughly enjoyed it so far):
2 years to get my car to gel-coat and registered / licensed. (I lost about 6 months of my build traveling to the Philippines for work).
Before gel-coat I fitted, drilled, clecoed, then used a couple sheet metal screws per row, to temporarily hold all of the aluminum panels in place. I pretty much assembled the whole car without rivets, then licensed it on 4/24/13 and drove it all summer (almost 4k miles!!). It wasn't as pretty as a finished car, but just as fun!
Then at the end of October, I began dis-assembly and re-finishing all of my panels, adding Damplifier, making carpet templates, THEN final assembly: silicon and rivets!
This way I could enjoy the roadster all summer and work out the bugs / make any final adjustments, tweaks, mods during the winter.
It adds a little more time to the build duration, but I did get to drive it for months and it's not going anywhere now (with single digit temps and snow on the ground! just warm up the garage and jump in!)
YES, like eating an elephant, one bite at a time!
Don't get in a hurry, it is over-whelming at times, but stick with it, IT WILL BE WORTH IT! :cool:


Here's my final panel assembly post to help motivate you:

I'm finishing up final riveting of my footboxes this week. Pulled them completely apart, sanded them with 200, 400, 800, then gave them a brushed finish with scotch-brite and coated them with Shark-hide. Kind of a pain, but really happy with the results. Also picked up some polished stainless-steel from Shaprios and fabricated some cool heat shields.
I also undercoated the exterior aluminum panels (F-Panels, front & rear splash panels, and footbox floors) with Dupli-color truckbed liner. Really gives it a nice finished look in the fender wells. Make sure you mask it well and cover all holes (rivet holes too!). Sprays on easy, but do yourself a favor and buy a pistol-grip that snaps on the spray can, before your hand and fingers cramp up badly. I also recommend heating up the spray in a bath of hot water for consistent texture spraying.


My newly finished panels:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/IMG_1895_zps35b0f69e.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/IMG_1886_zps4f93b4e9.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/IMG_1894_zps7938fe15.jpg

And the completed footboxes, I coated the exterior panel and the splash guards with the truckbed liner.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/IMG_2003_zps77b3cab2.jpg

with the Stainless Steel heatshields
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/IMG_2004_zpsb4270d5e.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/IMG_2005_zpsa42070e5.jpg

[SnowCobra]

Ken, I thank you so much for you honest portrayal of your work thus for on your build. It is entertaining and immensely informative. Acknowledging and discussing you're mistakes and troubles takes guts and I commend you for that. I hope that you keep the blog going thought out your entire build. I know it must take a lot of time to maintain but well worth it if it helps as many people with their build as I think it will, including myself.

Thank you,

Ryan

[carbon-12]

My experience (and I've thoroughly enjoyed it so far):
2 years to get my car to gel-coat and registered / licensed. (I lost about 6 months of my build traveling to the Philippines for work).
Before gel-coat I fitted, drilled, clecoed, then used a couple sheet metal screws per row, to temporarily hold all of the aluminum panels in place. I pretty much assembled the whole car without rivets, then licensed it on 4/24/13 and drove it all summer (almost 4k miles!!). It wasn't as pretty as a finished car, but just as fun!
Then at the end of October, I began dis-assembly and re-finishing all of my panels, adding Damplifier, making carpet templates, THEN final assembly: silicon and rivets!
This way I could enjoy the roadster all summer and work out the bugs / make any final adjustments, tweaks, mods during the winter.
It adds a little more time to the build duration, but I did get to drive it for months and it's not going anywhere now (with single digit temps and snow on the ground! just warm up the garage and jump in!)
YES, like eating an elephant, one bite at a time!
Don't get in a hurry, it is over-whelming at times, but stick with it, IT WILL BE WORTH IT! :cool:


Here's my final panel assembly post to help motivate you:

Thanks very much for sharing this breakdown of your work. It's very interesting to hear how much you stretched out your final aluminum work. To me, the best part is that you gave yourself a big window to make changes, live on the changes, and then make more changes—all based on your experience in real-world driving situations. This is excellent.

Thanks again for this great information. It really helps me to visualize how to organize the aluminum panel work.

[carbon-12]

Ken, I thank you so much for you honest portrayal of your work thus for on your build. It is entertaining and immensely informative. Acknowledging and discussing you're mistakes and troubles takes guts and I commend you for that. I hope that you keep the blog going thought out your entire build. I know it must take a lot of time to maintain but well worth it if it helps as many people with their build as I think it will, including myself.

Thank you,

Ryan

“Mistakes and troubles.” Yes, I acknowledge those. There are too many to ignore. :)

In my day job, I write computer programs. Making a correct program involves many, many iterations of finding and fixing problems. After many years in the field, I've realized that I care more about the final result of a project than I do about all the fumbling, failed experiments, and flat-out errors which happen along the way. So it is in my job, so it is on my kit car hobby.

I have every intention of continuing my blog. In my mind, my project is about two things: making the car and telling the story about making the car. I hope you enjoy the reading half as much as I enjoy the writing.

[MPTech]

I hope you enjoy the reading half as much as I enjoy the writing.


YES WE DO!

hope you don't mind me cluttering up your post with all of my lessons learned.
I'm just trying to help a guy out, so you can avoid some of the mistakes I made, because the guys before me shared their experiences so I could avoid some of their mistakes!

You WILL make mistakes. A project this big, they are almost unavoidable! The key to success is how you deal with them and progress forward:
throw in the towel and give up
or
darn, didn't mean to do that, let's see how we can fix it now (and btw, don't forget, ASK US HERE!!! We're here to help and probably been there, done that)

now go drill some holes and cleco some panels together while you wait for your missing parts (I used the panel assembly as filler work while I was working on more fun projects and was stalled)

[carbon-12]

YES WE DO!


Thank you.



hope you don't mind me cluttering up your post with all of my lessons learned.
I'm just trying to help a guy out, so you can avoid some of the mistakes I made, because the guys before me shared their experiences so I could avoid some of their mistakes!

You WILL make mistakes. A project this big, they are almost unavoidable! The key to success is how you deal with them and progress forward:
throw in the towel and give up
or
darn, didn't mean to do that, let's see how we can fix it now (and btw, don't forget, ASK US HERE!!! We're here to help and probably been there, done that)

now go drill some holes and cleco some panels together while you wait for your missing parts (I used the panel assembly as filler work while I was working on more fun projects and was stalled)

All good. I welcome your help. Tonight, I plan to do some powder coating practice tonight on some extra aluminum I bought for testing. Tomorrow night, I'll drill some holes and cleco some kit panels, just as you suggest.

Thanks again!

[bansheekev]

This sounds familiar - I also do software for a living and I have my own company. My alter ego is living in the country, having a small farm (goats, chickens, orchard, etc) and building/modifying cars. I have had the car bug since I was a teenager and have never kicked it. I love my job but away from work don't even think about a computer - give me a wrench, nail gun, shovel, whatever and I am happy. Anything other than sitting on my butt.

With that said, one of the things I have closely kept my eye on during my MKIV build is the law of unintended consequences. Having a firm plan and making every attempt to stick to it. Where I have deviated I consulted quite a few people before committing $ to it to makes sure it wouldn't bite me in the long run or stick me with a bunch of pricey parts that I cannot use. I took the approach of not blazing new ground (take for instance some people doing tilt front ends - NOT) but sticking to qualified and understood setups that would end up in with a known outcome.

Kevin


“Mistakes and troubles.” Yes, I acknowledge those. There are too many to ignore. :)

In my day job, I write computer programs. Making a correct program involves many, many iterations of finding and fixing problems. After many years in the field, I've realized that I care more about the final result of a project than I do about all the fumbling, failed experiments, and flat-out errors which happen along the way. So it is in my job, so it is on my kit car hobby.

I have every intention of continuing my blog. In my mind, my project is about two things: making the car and telling the story about making the car. I hope you enjoy the reading half as much as I enjoy the writing.

[carbon-12]

This sounds familiar - I also do software for a living and I have my own company. My alter ego is living in the country, having a small farm (goats, chickens, orchard, etc) and building/modifying cars. I have had the car bug since I was a teenager and have never kicked it. I love my job but away from work don't even think about a computer - give me a wrench, nail gun, shovel, whatever and I am happy. Anything other than sitting on my butt.

With that said, one of the things I have closely kept my eye on during my MKIV build is the law of unintended consequences. Having a firm plan and making every attempt to stick to it. Where I have deviated I consulted quite a few people before committing $ to it to makes sure it wouldn't bite me in the long run or stick me with a bunch of pricey parts that I cannot use. I took the approach of not blazing new ground (take for instance some people doing tilt front ends - NOT) but sticking to qualified and understood setups that would end up in with a known outcome.

Kevin

Like you, I'm trying to keep things reasonably simple with my build. Given my skill level and overall mechanical knowledge, I think that “coloring inside the lines” will help me to arrive at a good overall result. I do have some customizations planned (e.g. I plan to add a glovebox to my dash), but I'm trying to keep my dreams from getting out too far in front of my ability.

I am installing an IRS, and my crate engine is configured for EFI—but from what I can tell, rear suspension and fuel delivery are complicated no matter what you do. So those don't count. Heh.

[chopthebass]

and my crate engine is configured for EFI—but from what I can tell, rear suspension and fuel delivery are complicated no matter what you do. So those don't count. Heh.

What EFI system are you planning? I have just started looking into this, and the MSD Atomic is looking favorite.

[bansheekev]

Believe me, knowing how to use software can save you a ton of money. I did my comp dash and under dash filler layout in AutoCad myself and took it to a laser/waterjet place off Central and Lafayette and had them put it on their CNC laser table. One of those hidden talents I picked up early in my career when writing software in a manufacturing environment. Since the CAD work was done (which is way more expensive for them to do than table time) they laser cut everything for something like $150.

I have also done a fair amount of custom sheet metal work. I did a custom computer enclosure for the Coyote, modified the drivers side footbox wall on the accelerator pedal side to give more room, and a number of other custom brackets. A friend of mine works at a fab shop and would bend them on the press brake for me after I had it all transferred to aluminum, cut out, added bending reliefs, and marked bends.

You are always welcome to come look at a mechanically finished IRS car to visually see things that may spur thoughts (routing issues for electrical, brakes, fuel for instance).

Kevin

[chopthebass]

Believe me, knowing how to use software can save you a ton of money. I did my comp dash and under dash filler layout in AutoCad myself


That interesting! I am an Autocad expert so I could probably do the same if I can find a CNC equipped shop in Calgary.

[bansheekev]

Very simple - two layers:

1) Outline of the dash (I had FFR send me a blank dash when I ordered my kit so this was basically just showing what the perimter already looked like.
2) Cutouts - simple shapes including circles, and key'ed circles (i.e. circle with a flat side). I didn't bother trying to do the opening for the glove box in AutoCad - I did that with a jig saw. Wasn't worth the effort to try and digitize the provided template that is by no means symetrical.

Set your 0,0 to a location that the shop can physically zero on while on the table. I had it in the center of the steering wheel opening and they had to move to to a mechanical edge. They converted layer 2 to the CNC program.

Kevin


That interesting! I am an Autocad expert so I could probably do the same if I can find a CNC equipped shop in Calgary.

[chopthebass]

Very simple - two layers:

1) Outline of the dash (I had FFR send me a blank dash when I ordered my kit so this was basically just showing what the perimter already looked like.
2) Cutouts - simple shapes including circles, and key'ed circles (i.e. circle with a flat side). I didn't bother trying to do the opening for the glove box in AutoCad - I did that with a jig saw. Wasn't worth the effort to try and digitize the provided template that is by no means symetrical.

Set your 0,0 to a location that the shop can physically zero on while on the table. I had it in the center of the steering wheel opening and they had to move to to a mechanical edge. They converted layer 2 to the CNC program.

Kevin

Thats really simple. Got me thinking about designing my own dash now...!

[bansheekev]

If you don't have a blank dash already, they an cut a new one out based on layer 1... I'm sure you figured that out already though :p

Kevin


Very simple - two layers:

1) Outline of the dash (I had FFR send me a blank dash when I ordered my kit so this was basically just showing what the perimter already looked like.
2) Cutouts - simple shapes including circles, and key'ed circles (i.e. circle with a flat side). I didn't bother trying to do the opening for the glove box in AutoCad - I did that with a jig saw. Wasn't worth the effort to try and digitize the provided template that is by no means symetrical.

Set your 0,0 to a location that the shop can physically zero on while on the table. I had it in the center of the steering wheel opening and they had to move to to a mechanical edge. They converted layer 2 to the CNC program.

Kevin

[carbon-12]

What EFI system are you planning? I have just started looking into this, and the MSD Atomic is looking favorite.

MSD Atomic. I got a 302/350 HP Atomic EFI Clutch Package (http://www.fordcobraengines.com/engine/302-efi-clutch-pkg/) from The Engine Factory (http://www.fordcratemotors.com/).

[carbon-12]

Believe me, knowing how to use software can save you a ton of money. I did my comp dash and under dash filler layout in AutoCad myself and took it to a laser/waterjet place off Central and Lafayette and had them put it on their CNC laser table. One of those hidden talents I picked up early in my career when writing software in a manufacturing environment. Since the CAD work was done (which is way more expensive for them to do than table time) they laser cut everything for something like $150.

I have also done a fair amount of custom sheet metal work. I did a custom computer enclosure for the Coyote, modified the drivers side footbox wall on the accelerator pedal side to give more room, and a number of other custom brackets. A friend of mine works at a fab shop and would bend them on the press brake for me after I had it all transferred to aluminum, cut out, added bending reliefs, and marked bends.

You are always welcome to come look at a mechanically finished IRS car to visually see things that may spur thoughts (routing issues for electrical, brakes, fuel for instance).

Kevin

I am much more comfortable with computers and software than I am with wrenches. In a way, that's what makes this kit a good hobby. Even so, I would like to put my computer skills to some good during this project, and one specific idea is to cut my own competition dash.

As a member of the TechShop (http://techshop.ws) in San Jose, CA, I have access to their waterjet cutter (http://techshop.ws/take_classes.html?storeId=5&categoryId=27#398). The bed is plenty large enough to cut a dash for a Roadster.

Of course, you need a CAD file to give to the waterjet. I poked around on the net, and I found this link to a collection of files (http://www.keepandshare.com/visit/visit_page.php?i=482698) to get me started. Thank you Edward Duncan, wherever you are. I took his competition dash file and made my own. His file didn't include a glovebox. Since I want one, I looked around at some photos, and I drew one in.

I'm happy to share these files. I used Adobe Illustrator to create them, and exported them as DXF, the AutoCAD interchange format. I'll probably change it around some more before I cut it out. I'll post updates if and when I make them.

[carbon-12]

I want the Russ Thompson Turn Signal System (http://www.norcal-cobras.com/store/russ_garage/mk3/mk3tss.html) on my kit, so I called up Russ and placed my order about ten days ago. I needed to mail him the steering wheel boss (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/steering-wheel-boss/) from my kit (part #11008), so that, among other things, he could machine in the tabs for the self-canceling system. I also added in a special request. Since I'm planning to use Synergy Series switches from Ron Francis Wiring (http://www.ronfrancis.com/products.asp?dept=26) on my dash (this is the same company which supplies the wiring harness for the Roadster kit), I wanted the turn signal stalk to match. Russ took a look at the web pages for the switches I want, and he said he could turn me a custom piece.

Here's a photo with a close-up of the stalk. I think he did a great job.

26190

[bansheekev]

Things to think about when doing layout:

1) watch for how much clearance you need at the top for the body and the top hoop. The MKIV bodies are rolled and drop down over the dash.
2) watch for clearances to obstructions behind the dash (such as the vertical support tube for the hoop)
3) give thought to making the dash easily removable for future servicability - the MKIV body is rolled over the dash hoop so screwing the dash to the hoop makes it impossible to remove the dash without removing the body (search the ffcars.com site - there are a number of good designs)

Kevin


I am much more comfortable with computers and software than I am with wrenches. In a way, that's what makes this kit a good hobby. Even so, I would like to put my computer skills to some good during this project, and one specific idea is to cut my own competition dash.

As a member of the TechShop (http://techshop.ws) in San Jose, CA, I have access to their waterjet cutter (http://techshop.ws/take_classes.html?storeId=5&categoryId=27#398). The bed is plenty large enough to cut a dash for a Roadster.

Of course, you need a CAD file to give to the waterjet. I poked around on the net, and I found this link to a collection of files (http://www.keepandshare.com/visit/visit_page.php?i=482698) to get me started. Thank you Edward Duncan, wherever you are. I took his competition dash file and made my own. His file didn't include a glovebox. Since I want one, I looked around at some photos, and I drew one in.

I'm happy to share these files. I used Adobe Illustrator to create them, and exported them as DXF, the AutoCAD interchange format. I'll probably change it around some more before I cut it out. I'll post updates if and when I make them.

[carbon-12]

Things to think about when doing layout:

1) watch for how much clearance you need at the top for the body and the top hoop. The MKIV bodies are rolled and drop down over the dash.
2) watch for clearances to obstructions behind the dash (such as the vertical support tube for the hoop)
3) give thought to making the dash easily removable for future servicability - the MKIV body is rolled over the dash hoop so screwing the dash to the hoop makes it impossible to remove the dash without removing the body (search the ffcars.com site - there are a number of good designs)

Kevin

Excellent advice. Thanks.

When I attended the Factory Five Build School (https://www.factoryfive.com/build-school/), the teachers suggested we consider attaching the dash with “industrial-strength” velcro. I think it's an interesting idea, but as yet, I haven't looked into it further.

[carbon-12]

In addition to the custom parts I plan to include in my build, I also plan to upgrade to a hydraulic clutch. Since I ordered a Mk4 Roadster complete kit, I have the Wilwood pedal box, which is configured for three master cylinders. This makes adding a hydraulic clutch a reasonably simple upgrade, at least as far as the pedals go.

Since I've been help up a little on the work on the front end and rear end of my kit, I moved ahead in the assembly manual, which brought me to pedal box installation. Yesterday, as I started in on this work, I began to think about the master cylinder side of the hydraulic clutch.

This presents a little puzzle. Here are the givens:

- My slave cylinder has a bore of 0.7".
- The recommendation is for the slave to move the throw-out bearing 1.2".
- I want to get a Wilwood master cylinder, (http://www.wilwood.com/MasterCylinders/MasterCylinderList.aspx) since it will bolt in to the pedal box which came with my kit.

The Wilwood Compact Remote Reservoir Master Cylinder (http://www.wilwood.com/Images/MasterCylinders/MasterCylinder_Photos-Large/260-6087-lg.jpg) looks just like the ones which come with the kit (to work the brakes). This model comes in four sizes: 5/8", 0.70", 0.75", and 13/16". Which is the correct size to get?

The seemingly obvious answer is 0.7", to match the slave, but is that right? Since the master needs to push to slave 1.2", it needs sufficient fluid capacity to move the piston in the slave that distance. Which of the four Willwood masters can do this? I did some some geometry to find out.

First, I calculated the area of a circle whose diameter is the cylinder bore. Since the formula for the area of a circle uses doesn't use the diameter (which equals the bore), but its radius, the bore needs to be cut in half before multiplying it by pi. Then, I multiplied this by the stroke to get the volume of a cylinder with that bore.

volume = (bore * 0.5) x π * stroke

The detail pages for the Wilwood master cylinders bear out this math. Here are the numbers they give for the 5/8" master cylinder:



Bore
Area
Stroke
Volume


5/8" (0.625")
0.31 sq. in.
1.4"
0.43 cu. in.




Since 5/8" equals 0.625, and half that is 0.3125. The area is 0.3068, which Wilwood rounds up to 0.31. It's confusing that this turns out to be nearly the same as the radius, but well… math.

0.3068 = (0.625 * 0.5) x π * 1.4

Here are the calculations for all the cylinders, slave plus the four masters.



Cylinder
Bore
Area (sq. in.)
Stroke
Volume (cu. in.)


Slave
0.70"
0.3848
1.2"
0.4618


Willwood 260-6087
0.625" (5/8")
0.3068
1.4"
0.4295


Willwood 260-6088
0.70"
0.3848
1.4"
0.5388


Willwood 260-6089
0.75" (3/4")
0.4418
1.4"
0.6185


Wilwood 260-11972
0.8125" (13/16")
0.5185
1.4"
0.7259



Since the master must push enough hydraulic fluid to move the slave 1.2", it must have at least 0.4618 cubic inches of fluid capacity. As you can see, all but the 5/8" Wilwood master cylinder has sufficient capacity.

In the end, since the question of pedal feel and pedal box geometry figures in as well, I bought both the 0.70" and 3/4" Willwood master cylinders. I'll probably install and test each of them. That will require an extra bleed of the hydraulic line, but I'm curious which will work better, and which I'll like more.

[carbon-12]

When I attended the Factory Five Racing Build School this past December, I took down many pages of notes detailing the tips and tricks the teachers shared with us. One of these notes was: “Upgrade brake pads”. I remember jotting this down as the teachers were speaking to us, and their main message was that there were few things you could do in your build that would be as inexpensive, as easy to do, and would have as big an overall effect on the performance of the car on the road.

So, while getting better brake pads provides a great bang for the buck, and is a simple upgrade to make, there is one complication—getting the right size pads.

On my kit, I plan to run 15" tires since I love the look, and I chose the FIA Pin Drive Wheel Set (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/fia-pin-drive-wheel-set/) to go with them. To match up with these wheels and tires, I have the 11.65" IRS Brake package (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/performance-11-65-rear-brake-set/) and the Pin Drive IRS (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/pin-drive-irs/) from Factory Five. In the fronts, I have the brakes which came as stock with the complete kit (https://www.factoryfive.com/kits/mk4-roadster/complete-kit/).

The pads which shipped to me in my kit are Wagner Thermo Quiet (http://www.tqbrakepads.com), model MX804 for the fronts, and model PD627A for the rears. I suppose the internet could have converted these numbers into information I could use to buy compatible alternatives.

I did something even simpler. I called . The fellow on the phone said that a 2000 Ford Mustang GT uses the same front brakes as I have, and a 1999–2004 Ford Mustang Corba uses the same size as my rears.

Now that I knew the correct size, now I needed to choose the replacement pads themselves. Fortunately, there's a wealth of information available online, both in forums, and on vendor websites. I didn't see one option stand clear of all the rest, so I went with EBC Red Stuff, since they've received decent overall feedback. I got model DP31242C for the fronts, and DP31156-2C for the rears.

I still was a bit worried that they would be the same size, but as you can see, my concerns were unfounded. Both the fronts and rears look like perfect matches.

2633426335

[edwardb]

In addition to the custom parts I plan to include in my build, I also plan to upgrade to a hydraulic clutch. Since I ordered a Mk4 Roadster complete kit, I have the Wilwood pedal box, which is configured for three master cylinders. This makes adding a hydraulic clutch a reasonably simple upgrade, at least as far as the pedals go.

In the end, since the question of pedal feel and pedal box geometry figures in as well, I bought both the 0.70" and 3/4" Willwood master cylinders. I'll probably install and test each of them. That will require an extra bleed of the hydraulic line, but I'm curious which will work better, and which I'll like more.

The Wilwood MC's you purchased are likely undersized. Math is interesting (and I'm a technical person myself) but there are a lot of variables. Here's a proven combination that is demonstrated to work with the Wilwood pedal box: Wilwood 1-1/8 inch MC and CNC 7/8 inch slave push cylinder. Mike Forte, who has sold probably as many setups for this as anyone, recommended this to me as the most current successful setup, and I can verify it works. Attached at the clutch fork cable location, gives exactly 1.2 inches of travel. I just set it up in my Mk4 a few weeks ago. Don't recall what transmission you're using, but Forte's sells all the parts for T5 or TKO's. This link in my build thread has pictures of the clutch fork end, and a video of how it works with this combination. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?8296-Mk4-7750-Build-Progress-Update&p=134526&viewfull=1#post134526

I too mocked up the setup with the engine/clutch/trans outside the chassis before installing. Fortunately there were no surprises as evidenced by the video. It was worth it to make sure I wasn't going to take the engine back out to change or adjust things. Having said that, once you introduce brake fluid into the system, and then take it apart and back together repeatedly, it's nearly impossible to keep brake fluid from getting all over things. And that stuff is destructive. Do your best to keep the mock-up and trials to a minimum IMHO.

Update: Took the time this AM to review your build log site (Sorry find it a little confusing with information in two locations) and see that you have chosen a T5 and purchased a slave cylinder setup already. The information I provided above may not be of too much value based on where you're at now. But having a description and view of a successful setup hopefully will be helpful for you. Good luck with your build.

[carbon-12]

The Wilwood MC's you purchased are likely undersized. Math is interesting (and I'm a technical person myself) but there are a lot of variables. Here's a proven combination that is demonstrated to work with the Wilwood pedal box: Wilwood 1-1/8 inch MC and CNC 7/8 inch slave push cylinder. Mike Forte, who has sold probably as many setups for this as anyone, recommended this to me as the most current successful setup, and I can verify it works. Attached at the clutch fork cable location, gives exactly 1.2 inches of travel. I just set it up in my Mk4 a few weeks ago. Don't recall what transmission you're using, but Forte's sells all the parts for T5 or TKO's. This link in my build thread has pictures of the clutch fork end, and a video of how it works with this combination. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?8296-Mk4-7750-Build-Progress-Update&p=134526&viewfull=1#post134526

I too mocked up the setup with the engine/clutch/trans outside the chassis before installing. Fortunately there were no surprises as evidenced by the video. It was worth it to make sure I wasn't going to take the engine back out to change or adjust things. Having said that, once you introduce brake fluid into the system, and then take it apart and back together repeatedly, it's nearly impossible to keep brake fluid from getting all over things. And that stuff is destructive. Do your best to keep the mock-up and trials to a minimum IMHO.

Update: Took the time this AM to review your build log site (Sorry find it a little confusing with information in two locations) and see that you have chosen a T5 and purchased a slave cylinder setup already. The information I provided above may not be of too much value based on where you're at now. But having a description and view of a successful setup hopefully will be helpful for you. Good luck with your build.

For my clutch setup, I used a vendor who is not a forum supporter, and so I didn't mention him here. That's against the forum policy, and I don't want to break the rules. That explains the difference between my post here, and the one on my external site. I apologize for the confusion.

As for the setup itself, I believe in math. There's no arguing with it when you feed in all the correct inputs, but I completely understand that my simple equations may be too simple to accurately model the system. I am prepared to make adjustments and buy new parts if that's what it takes to make everything work. Recently, I contacted Mike Forte to source some parts for my IRS, so if I need to call a do-over, I know I can turn to him to get this hydraulic clutch worked out.

Thanks for the advice about the brake fluid, too. Generally, I like running as many tests as I can. It's good to know that I should probably skip the tinkering once I add the fluid.

I appreciate your help. Good luck with your build!

[David Hodgkins]

Ken, there is no rule against mentioning non-vendors as part of your build thread. There is a rule against using members to repeatedly push products while not being a vendor(read about it here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?7534-Posting-examples-of-work-by-non-supporting-vendors)), but I wouldn't worry about that.

Please, feel free to discuss everything you are doing as part of the build.

:)

[edwardb]

Ken, there is no rule against mentioning non-vendors as part of your build thread. There is a rule against using members to repeatedly push products while not being a vendor, but I wouldn't worry about that. Please, feel free to discuss everything you doing as part of the build. :)

Thank you. I was just looking for the forum rules to get the specific language. I was 99.9% sure this was the case, because I mention non-forum vendors in my build log and it's never been a problem. But certainly none of them are asking me to. I just do it as info for other builders.


As for the setup itself, I believe in math. There's no arguing with it when you feed in all the correct inputs, but I completely understand that my simple equations may be too simple to accurately model the system. I am prepared to make adjustments and buy new parts if that's what it takes to make everything work. Recently, I contacted Mike Forte to source some parts for my IRS, so if I need to call a do-over, I know I can turn to him to get this hydraulic clutch worked out.

I believe in math too. (I was a math major...) My point was only that all the math in the world is nice but in this case there is already a well proven setup and you could easily burn through a lot of time and money to get back to the same place. You have to decide what fits your build, but the experiences of others are one of the huge advantages of this forum. FWIW.

[carbon-12]

Ken, there is no rule against mentioning non-vendors as part of your build thread. There is a rule against using members to repeatedly push products while not being a vendor(read about it here (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?7534-Posting-examples-of-work-by-non-supporting-vendors)), but I wouldn't worry about that.

Please, feel free to discuss everything you are doing as part of the build.

:)

Thanks for the guidance. Given the way I started off in this thread, I figured I'd tread very lightly for a bit. :)

[carbon-12]

Thank you. I was just looking for the forum rules to get the specific language. I was 99.9% sure this was the case, because I mention non-forum vendors in my build log and it's never been a problem. But certainly none of them are asking me to. I just do it as info for other builders.



I believe in math too. (I was a math major...) My point was only that all the math in the world is nice but in this case there is already a well proven setup and you could easily burn through a lot of time and money to get back to the same place. You have to decide what fits your build, but the experiences of others are one of the huge advantages of this forum. FWIW.

Yep. I see your point. I already got started down the path I'm on before I started using this forum, and so I didn't have the advantage of the experience you all have gathered up over time. I haven't yet sunk a lot of time and money in my effort to get my clutch working, and I won't. I wouldn't mind too much if I'm able to discover another path to a working system, since I think that would benefit everyone, but at the same time, I don't want this upgrade attempt to get out of control. As I look at it, I'm building a whole car, not a hydraulic clutch.

As for math, I use numbers all day long in my job as a computer programmer, but I last studied math as a separate discipline in the 1980s, when I was in the 11th grade. So, I'm just glad you didn't correct my calculations. You still can if you see any mistakes. I have a thick skin. :-)

Thanks again for your advice.

[bansheekev]

Another vote for the 1 1/8" Wilwood combination master (which is a different style from Wilwood - not the compact master supplied with the complete kit) and 7/8" CNC setup from Forte. I installed mine a month ago and it worked perfect from the get to. I didn't even mock it up outside the car as the drivetrain was already in the car. Didn't matter, worked exactly as expected. I go-karted the car over the weekend and the clutch pedal throw and feel is exactlly what I wanted. The pedal travel is about 4.5" (with a stop at the bottom of the pedal throw to prevent overextending the slave) and the clutch fork travel is 1.2".

I had done a ton of reading and talking with people about it and this setup is definately the sweet spot. Some have used slightly smaller masters (1" for instance) but the pedal travel needs to be longer (6" +) and it is on the edge of not getting enough slave travel. Reason for mentioning this is that the 1 1/8" master with its shorter throw allows me to set the pedal height further away from me (same height as the brake pedal) which gives me a lot more legroom (i.e. comfort).

Just my $.02

Kevin

[2bking]

Ken,

The math is good and will tell the travel of the slave vs mc which is about all you need to know. The important rule is to not have such a large mc so as to force the slave piston out of the bore. Hopefully the slave has a little more than 1.2 inches of travel so the mc needs to be just large enough to get the 1.2 inches in the slave. This will give the least pedal effort. If you go bigger in the mc, the pedal effort will be higher and clutch movement will be faster (think full release at mid travel of the clutch pedal). Depending on available travel in the slave, you may force the slave piston out of it bore or get hydraulic lock when the piston hits a retainer. If the hydraulic lock occurs, the pedal will not go full travel to the floor.

[carbon-12]

Ken,

The math is good and will tell the travel of the slave vs mc which is about all you need to know. The important rule is to not have such a large mc so as to force the slave piston out of the bore. Hopefully the slave has a little more than 1.2 inches of travel so the mc needs to be just large enough to get the 1.2 inches in the slave. This will give the least pedal effort. If you go bigger in the mc, the pedal effort will be higher and clutch movement will be faster (think full release at mid travel of the clutch pedal). Depending on available travel in the slave, you may force the slave piston out of it bore or get hydraulic lock when the piston hits a retainer. If the hydraulic lock occurs, the pedal will not go full travel to the floor.

Thanks for the help. I'll post an update when I have the clutch hooked up and (hopefully) working.

[carbon-12]

In my work as a computer programmer, I often need to think about problems at several different levels of abstraction. At the highest level, I'm writing a complete program to accomplish a certain set of goals. At progressively deeper levels, there are typically:


Frameworks, where each is a large collection of many classes.
Classes, where each is a collection of methods which, taken together, implement a specific feature or job.
Methods, where each contributes to the overall feature or job of the class.
Lines of code, where each implements a step of a method algorithm.


This certainly isn't the only way programs can be broken down, and this heirarchy describes the kind of code I write (end-user applications) in the language I typically write in (Objective-C). These details don't matter, nor does the terminology or technology.

However, the levels of abstraction do matter. When I'm writing code, I usually am focused on a particular one of these levels, but that doesn't mean I can forget about all the rest. The process of writing a program means repeatedly moving up and down this heirarchy to make sure that all levels are done right, and each relates well to its neighbors.

This works well for me in my job, and I'm trying to apply the same kind of heirarchical thinking to my Roadster build. After I took delivery of my kit and started taking inventory (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/2/once-over-all-the-parts), I was overwhelmed by the sheer number of parts and the random order in which they appeared. As I started in on the few steps in the assembly manual, I struggled just to find all the parts I needed to begin work.

It's taken about a month, but I'm getting more comfortable with thinking about my kit in terms of subsystems. Tonight, I began to sketch out a diagram which organizes the project into the major parts which make up the whole car. It's not complete (or even correct) yet, but it's a start.

26385

[DaleG]

"The pedal travel is about 4.5" (with a stop at the bottom of the pedal throw to prevent overextending the slave) and the clutch fork travel is 1.2"."

Unclear what you mean by a "stop"; how is it installed?

[MPTech]

VERY logical!

Get accustomed to spaghetti code, you'll be less stressed! LOL :D

The Build Manual can help guide some of this too. You will also need to be cognizant of sequence, especially when you start riveting panels and installing for the final build.

I started keeping a Punch List of things I wanted to do and update it FREQUENTLY.
My first page was things I wanted to do that weekend or within the next week or so (immediate term items). I checked them off, or added to them after every build session and kept a printed copy on my desk at work so I could jot down notes as they popped into my head or on the drive into the office.
and the following pages (yes 3 or 4 pages of items) were things I thought of that I wanted to document so I didn't forget or remember after a point of no-return. These items were broken down by areas like you identified: engine, interior, wheels, wiring, trunk, exterior, and NEED to PURCHASE, etc.

[carbon-12]

VERY logical!

Get accustomed to spaghetti code, you'll be less stressed! LOL :D


Heh. Your advice reminds me of this gem: “I love hitting myself in the head with a brick, because it feels so good when it stops.”


The Build Manual can help guide some of this too. You will also need to be cognizant of sequence, especially when you start riveting panels and installing for the final build.

I started keeping a Punch List of things I wanted to do and update it FREQUENTLY.
My first page was things I wanted to do that weekend or within the next week or so (immediate term items). I checked them off, or added to them after every build session and kept a printed copy on my desk at work so I could jot down notes as they popped into my head or on the drive into the office.
and the following pages (yes 3 or 4 pages of items) were things I thought of that I wanted to document so I didn't forget or remember after a point of no-return. These items were broken down by areas like you identified: engine, interior, wheels, wiring, trunk, exterior, and NEED to PURCHASE, etc.

I like the idea of making a list associated with each subsystem. “NEED to PURCHASE” is a great addition, too. I'll give this a try over the weekend.

[mike w]

In my work as a computer programmer, I often need to think about problems at several different levels of abstraction. At the highest level, I'm writing a complete program to accomplish a certain set of goals. At progressively deeper levels, there are typically:


Frameworks, where each is a large collection of many classes.
Classes, where each is a collection of methods which, taken together, implement a specific feature or job.
Methods, where each contributes to the overall feature or job of the class.
Lines of code, where each implements a step of a method algorithm.


This certainly isn't the only way programs can be broken down, and this heirarchy describes the kind of code I write (end-user applications) in the language I typically write in (Objective-C). These details don't matter, nor does the terminology or technology.

However, the levels of abstraction do matter. When I'm writing code, I usually am focused on a particular one of these levels, but that doesn't mean I can forget about all the rest. The process of writing a program means repeatedly moving up and down this heirarchy to make sure that all levels are done right, and each relates well to its neighbors.

This works well for me in my job, and I'm trying to apply the same kind of heirarchical thinking to my Roadster build. After I took delivery of my kit and started taking inventory (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/2/once-over-all-the-parts), I was overwhelmed by the sheer number of parts and the random order in which they appeared. As I started in on the few steps in the assembly manual, I struggled just to find all the parts I needed to begin work.

It's taken about a month, but I'm getting more comfortable with thinking about my kit in terms of subsystems. Tonight, I began to sketch out a diagram which organizes the project into the major parts which make up the whole car. It's not complete (or even correct) yet, but it's a start.

26385

As a project engineer managing multi-million dollar projects with hundreds, if not thousands of tasks, I too use the WBS (work breakdown structure) method to catagorize and link the tacks. It helps the mind breakdown a large project into sub-projects that can be well understood, managed and scheduled. I like the way you think!

[carbon-12]

As a project engineer managing multi-million dollar projects with hundreds, if not thousands of tasks, I too use the WBS (work breakdown structure) method to catagorize and link the tacks. It helps the mind breakdown a large project into sub-projects that can be well understood, managed and scheduled. I like the way you think!

Fortunately, I don't have multiple millions of dollars at risk on my kit build. :)

[carbon-12]

I make mistakes. Even though I try to work deliberately, and plan ahead carefully, and consult the accumulated wisdom available online, I still make plenty of mistakes. While it's great when a task goes smoothly, and I can move on to the next without trouble, many times I need to patch up some small bit of bungling before a job is done. Maybe more experienced builders don't have so much trouble, but for me, fixing mistakes (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/22/fixing-mistakes) is a big part of the kit-building process.

Earlier this week when I was assembling the pedal box, I got most everything together, and it came time to tighten down the bolts as it says in the assembly manual. Since I'm upgrading to a hydraulic clutch, I have a third master cylinder on top of my pedal box. As I put on the wrench to tighten down the two bolts holding on the clutch master cylinder, I stripped a bolt.

This was a bit careless of me, but as I thought it over, I decided that I shouldn't feel too bad. The studs coming out from the pedal box don't protrude too far past the mount for the master cylinder, and there isn't much room to get the bolt started before it starts to get tight. Still, I should have been more careful.

Obviously, I needed to fix this up. My first idea was to try a different bolt on the stripped stud. If the threads were not too badly damaged, it's possible that a good bolt could set things right. Unfortunately, this didn't work.

My next idea was to use a tap and die to clean up the threads. In the past, I've had some success with using light pressure with these cutting tools to repair stripped threads. Since I didn't have my own set, I went to Amazon.com and bought this GearWrench 82812 114 Piece Large Combination Tap and Die Set (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/22/fixing-mistakes).

26437

Last night, I gave the new set a try. Since I wasn't intended to cut new threads, but just repair existing ones, I experimented to find the right size tap and die for the bolt and stud to match the threads already there. With the die, I didn't even need to fit the handle—turning the die by hand was enough. The bolt needed a bit more persuasion.

26438 26439

Both repairs worked great. In a half-hour, everything was fixed up.

It felt bad to make the mistake of stripping the bolt in the first place, but it felt better to work through the problem and find a relatively simple fix up.

[carbon-12]

A few days ago, I received the wayward castle nut (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/9/hit-some-snags) I needed from Factory Five to continue work on the front suspension of my Roadster kit. I pressed on, but eventually, I decided that the upper control arms just didn't look right. After I had them mounted up, put together the rest of the front suspension, and added on the brakes, I decided that I had gone wrong somewhere. This was a vague notion, since I've never done this kind of work on a car suspension before but, I felt confident that I had made a mistake. I decided to go back over the manual, look at some pictures on the forums, and see if I could figure out what the variables were that I failed to get right.

26552

I'm reasonably sure I had the control arms upside-down. Even though I tried to be careful, I didn't know what I was looking for when I was reading the assembly manual, so I missed a key detail. This led me to mount the ball joints in the wrong side of the control arms, which caused the ball joing to be angled severely once I bolted the control arm to the spindle.

It's difficult to describe in words, but here goes: the low portion of the angled control arm should be on top and facing in toward the chassis. The ball joint should be screwed in from that side. Maybe this picture will help to illustrate the point.

26553

The fix was easy, if a bit time-comsuming. I unmounted the control arms, unscrewed the ball joints, flipped the control arms, and screwed the ball joints back in. I'm still in the process of putting everything back together, but I'm pretty sure that I got it right this time. If anybody smarter knows better (that probably means you!), please say the word.

[Jeff Kleiner]

As shown in your photo the entire UCA assembly is upside down with the ball joint screwed in from the wrong direction:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/8d5f7b9d-f584-4abb-894d-9e65d5256a4c.jpg

You've already identified the error with the ball joint angle but also be aware that the crossbar links (red arrow) should have the offset to the top of the bar rather than below. When everything is oriented properly the ball joints will angle outward as shown in your "driver's side" photo, the fixed/welded leg of the ball joint plate will be on the forward end on the driver's side and on the rearward end on the passenger side and the grease fittings on the crossbar links will point up.

Carry on and good luck!

Jeff

[carbon-12]

Thanks for the additional help. I plan to get everything put back together this evening. I'll make sure the fixed/welded legs are oriented as you say. Thanks again!

[carbon-12]

I needed to work through some mistakes (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/26/upside-down) on my front suspension, but I think I finally put together correctly this afternoon. I intended to do this work two days ago, on Thursday night, but as I was going over the parts getting them ready for reassembly, I noticed that I had somehow opened a gash one of the ball joint boots.

26635

This wasn't a major setback, but it delayed me for a couple of days as I ordered replacements. I went out on the forums to see what the collected wisdom had to say about ball joint boots. I found recommendations (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13487-Question(s)-on-grease-boots-for-F5-upper-control-arm-ball-joints">recommendations) for Energy Suspension (http://www.energysuspensionparts.com) ball joint boots, and since they're inexpensive, I ordered some for both the upper and lower boots.

The part numbers are as follows:

- Lower ball joint boots: Energy Suspension 5.13102 (http://www.energysuspensionparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=5.13102)
- Upper ball joint boots: Energy Suspension 9.13130 (http://www.energysuspensionparts.com/proddetail.asp?prod=9.13130)

Both products come in G (black) and R (red) variants, so the specific parts I ordered were 5.13102G and 9.13130G. They come with two in a box, so one box is enough. They seem to fit better than the parts which came with the kit. I'm happy with them.

26636

With the new boots in hand, I reassembled the front suspension. The ball joint hanging down from the upper control arm looks much better now. As you can see, I also had a helpful tip (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=141301&viewfull=1#post141301) from Jeff Kleiner (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/member.php?53-Jeff-Kleiner). The key point is to note that “the fixed/welded leg of the ball joint plate will be on the forward end on the driver's side and on the rearward end on the passenger side and the grease fittings on the crossbar links will point up”. I made sure to get that right as well.

[carbon-12]

One of the most surprising aspects of building my Roadster kit has been the discovery that each and every step presents problems to solve. While I haven't damaged any parts, or made any expensive errors, or injured myself seriously (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2013/12/6/injury), nor have I sailed through a set of pages in the assembly manual without hitting some roadblock which caused me stop, think long and hard about how to proceed, look on the forums for help, or jump into the car to go to Home Depot. This kit is not a jigsaw puzzle or Lego set (http://shop.lego.com/en-US/Race-Car-60053). Finding the right part is not the key to moving on. Everything takes more work than that.

This weekend has provided adequate proof for that assertion, in the form of several little snags which slowed progress on my pin drive independent rear suspension (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/pin-drive-irs/) (IRS) installation.

First, I needed to get the differential (the “pumpkin”) installed in the chassis. I tried several different angles to no avail. Then I found some advice, which said to start by placing the pumpkin pointing upwards on a jack, and alternate a few times between raising the pumpkin, angling it forward, and twisting it to fit through the opening. I got it seated in five minutes.

26676

[Secondly, I was unsure about the orientation of the lower control arms. Coming fresh off my experience (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/1/rightside-up) with an upside-down installation (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/26/upside-down) of the ball joint on the upper control arms for the front suspension, I wanted to make sure I didn't make a similar mistake on the rear. The lower control arms for the IRS have one straight and one angled side. They also have bosses for the spindles and the shock. The manual is very clear that the boss for the shock should go down, but it says nothing about the orientation of the sides. I stared at this for a few minutes—and was briefly confused since I mistook the mount for the upper control arm as the mount for the shock—but it all became clear when I figured out that the CV axle would only have the space to come out of the differential if the straight side of the lower control arm went toward the front of the car.

26675

Thirdly, I had trouble with the spacers for the shocks themselves. The long spacer was simply too long. Even though I decided to go with the body side down for the shocks, there wasn't enough nearly clearance for the top of the shock cylinder—it collided with the mounting boss. I calculated that I would need to shave off about a quarter of an inch to make a decent fit, and since I don't have any tools in my garage to make such a cut, I headed off to the TechShop (http://techshop.ws) this morning.

26677

I figured I would use a grinding wheel, but after a couple minutes of trying that and making very little progress, one of the other fellows working in the shop noticed what I was doing, and offered to help. He was working on the lathe, and came into the grinding room to debur a part he was working on. He said that he would be happy to take them down to the size I needed. This was a wonderfully generous gesture, and within fifteen minutes—and after saying many thanks—I was back in the grinding room deburring my two spacers.

26674

Next, came the task of inserting the CV axles into the differential. As I slid them in, I noticed they would not go in all the way. The splines seemed to mesh, at least partially, but the C-clip on the end of the shaft stopped it from going further. I did some measuring, and looking with a flashlight, and momentarily wondered if the number of splines on the shaft matched those inside the differential. I counted twenty-eight splines on the shaft, and found the order form from Mike Forte (http://www.fortesparts.com). It showed that the differential also had twenty-eight splines. Since that wasn't the problem, I went to my computer and searched the forums some more. I found some advice, which said that, indeed the shafts install with the C-clips in place, and all that's required is “a little shove”. I went back out into the garage, backed out the shaft a little bit, forced it forward in a battering ram motion, and it easily clicked into place. It seems silly that this problem had such an easy solution, but since I have never put together an IRS before, there was no way for me to know.

The final problem of the day has no easy solution—at least there isn't one today. I didn't know that inserting the hub into the IRS spindle/knuckle was going to require any special work, but it does. These parts fit together with a very tight tolerance of just a couple thousandths of an inch, and there's no way I can do the work in my garage with the tools I have. I need to find a shop to do the work, and I think I already have a lead. When I had my Lotus in for some service last week at Dietsch Werks (http://www.dietschwerks.com), I chatted with Rob Dietsch when I picked up the car. I mentioned my Factory Five project, and he offered to help me if I needed anything. I already knew that I would have to find some professional help to get the alignment done right, and he said he could do that for me. I'm going to contact him tomorrow to see if he can help get these hubs pressed into the spindle. I'm confident that even if he can't help me himself, he'll know who can.

26678

In all, I think I made good progress over the weekend. If I can get this hub and spindle situation resolved over the next few days, I think I can get the IRS installation finished up by next weekend.

[2bking]

The final problem of the day has no easy solution—at least there isn't one today. I didn't know that inserting the hub into the IRS spindle/knuckle was going to require any special work, but it does.

I didn't need anything special except a 36mm socket. Start the axle shaft through the knuckle and put the hub on from the outside. The axle is long enough to start the axle nut and it will pull the hub and axle together in the bearing. The 36 mm socket fits the rear axle nut and front spindle nut.

[carbon-12]

I didn't need anything special except a 36mm socket. Start the axle shaft through the knuckle and put the hub on from the outside. The axle is long enough to start the axle nut and it will pull the hub and axle together in the bearing. The 36 mm socket fits the rear axle nut and front spindle nut.

I am not an expert in this area, and maybe you are, and maybe I'm fretting needlessly over this task. However, it seems to me that your approach is a variation on the “threaded rod” technique, and this Google search (https://www.google.com/search?rls=en&q=threaded+rod+irs+hub) (search terms: “threaded rod irs hub”) shows that some experts question whether this results in a hub which is seated properly. This Google search (https://www.google.com/search?rls=en&q=20+ton+press+irs+hub) (search terms: “20 ton press irs hub”) shows others think that most of the force of a 20-ton hydraulic press is needed to seat the hub correctly.

Maybe your hubs and spindles are different from mine, and maybe theirs are different from both of ours. Perhaps it's not possible to make blanket statements about proper technique. I don't know. Does anyone else have an opinion or experiences to share?

[carbon-12]

I called my Lotus garage today, and they said they could press in the hubs. It's a neat place to visit. They always have a lot of cool cars around. I'm going to have them do it. I'll post pics when the work is done.

[carbon-12]

While I intend to do most of the work on my Roadster kit by myself, there are some jobs I'll leave to outside professionals. These jobs fall into two categories:

1. Things I consider too difficult to do. This includes building an engine—I bought a package from The Engine Factory (http://www.fordcobraengines.com). I don't think I'll be able to get the front or rear alignment just right—I'll probably use Dietsch Werks (http://www.dietschwerks.com), my Lotus shop. Someday, this will also include painting the car—I don't have a contractor lined up yet.
2. Things I consider too dangerous to do. This includes anything related to safety, where a failure could quickly lead injury or worse. For example, while I've already assembled the front brakes, and I hope to get to the rear this coming weekend, I won't drive the car on the road until I've had them checked by an expert.

This past weekend, I discovered a new work item in the second category: pressing the hubs into the spindles for my independent rear suspension (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/pin-drive-irs/) (IRS). I didn't know that getting the hubs and spindles together would be any more difficult than the fronts, but it's a bigger job. The two parts are a press fit, where the tolerances are very close—within a few thousandths of an inch. Some of the builders I've seen on the forums figured out ways to do the work themselves (with either a threaded rod (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?5919-IRS-Hub-mounting-question&p=58152&viewfull=1#post58152) or a home hydraulic press (http://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-shop-press-32879.html)), but I read comments which gave me pause.

Since a failure of this fit could cause a rear wheel to fall off, I decided I would feel better to let experienced mechanics do the work. Enter Dietsch Werks again. I took the four parts over to them on Tuesday afternoon, and they were ready that evening. They charged me for fifteen minutes of labor. I consider this a great deal, and it gives me confident that the job was done right.

This post (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=141886&viewfull=1#post141886) shows a picture of what the hubs and spindles looked like before I sent them out. Here are a couple pictures once I got them back from the shop.

[carbon-12]

I mounted the rear wheels and tires for the first time this evening.

26838

I had been hoping to get the car off the jack stands and standing on all four wheels over the weekend which just finished up, but I ran into a little problem. The nut for the rear axle takes a 36mm socket. The fronts also have a 36mm nut, and I didn't have a socket that large when I was putting that end together a couple of weeks ago, so I stopped working, got into the car, drove the Sears, and bought a socket. I figured I was set.

Unfortunately, the rears screw on much further than the fronts, and the socket I bought wasn't very deep, so the threaded rod at the end of the rear axle bottomed out before I could get the nut all the way on.

I discovered this two days ago on Saturday, but I was busy in the evening, so I just ordered a deeper socket from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000NPUKJ8). It arrived tonight. With it in hand, it was easy to turn it on far enough to hold the axle and spindle in place (I'll torque it down to spec later on, once I'm sure I have everything right).

26840

I went for the pin drive adapter and pin nuts next, and here I discovered the next problem. The directions for my wheels (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/fia-pin-drive-wheel-set/) say that the studs should only have
5/8" exposure for the pin nuts, otherwise the tightening tool for the pin nuts won't have enough grip to torque the nuts to 60 ft-lbs. Sure enough, my studs are about 1/4" too long.

26839

I continue to be amazed how, at every step, something doesn't fit as it came in the kit. Everything must be made to fit. I guess I'm starting to expect it, so even discovering that I'll very likely have some stud-cutting in my near future, it couldn't dampen my spirits—I really liked seeing the wheels and tires on the car.

[MPTech]

Ken, you're really moving along on your progress, getting the wheels / tires on and dropping it on the ground is a rewarding milestone.
Congrats on the Roller! Just wondering, do you have a theme in mind with the wheels you're running? I like them.

Don't get discouraged, there will always be challenges with the build. Hey, if it was easy, everybody would have one.
I can tell you that you will forget all the setbacks the first time you drive it and someone is totally impressed that YOU BUILT IT YOURSELF! :cool:

[David Hodgkins]

I think everyone that has built one of these cars ends up with that deep well socket in their tool set...

Also, everyone who builds these cars at some point realizes it's a bit more than simply "tab A into slot B" and that light fabrication is part of the process. I've never had to do any welding but "gently massaging" panels to deal with welds and making them fit together precisely is a bit of an art.

I've always looked at the build as the fun part of the process. Tinkering on the build is cathartic. Have fun with it and look at it as a hobby and the build will go a lot smoother.

You're making good progress!

:)

[jrichards]

The term cathartic is the perfect term. Not everyone understands why working through challenges and turning a wrench can be relaxing. For me it is very relaxing after a stressful week at the office.

Ken - please keep making mistakes and posting them on your website! But for your post on the UCR's being upside down, I may have made the same mistake. Your website is great Keep up the work and thanks for posting your progress.

[carbon-12]

Thanks for the moral support, everyone.

I thought I would run into some complications at the start of the project, due to both my lack of experience with the kit, and with mechanical projects of this magnitude. I figured that once I got into the work, things would smooth out a bit, and there wouldn't be issues to overcome at every step.

Since that doesn't seem to be the case, and since you're all telling me that it's correct to be that way, I'll just adjust my expectations. That's OK. I haven't run into anything which completely stymied me yet, and if I do, I know where to ask my questions.

Besides, I just got back from Home Depot with my new Makita 18-Volt LXT Lithium-Ion Cordless Reciprocating Saw (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Makita-18-Volt-LXT-Lithium-Ion-Cordless-Reciprocating-Saw-Tool-Only-BJR182Z/202352525). Talk about catharsis!

I'm going to see if I can use the new saw to cut down those wheel studs. I'll post pictures after I do the work.

Thanks again for the encouragement!

[David Hodgkins]

Make sure you put the Lugnuts on before you cut the threads. Tthat way the Lugnuts will act as a die when you take them off after the cut. You also may want to file the ends before removing the nuts.

:)

[carbon-12]

Make sure you put the Lugnuts on before you cut the threads. Tthat way the Lugnuts will act as a die when you take them off after the cut. You also may want to file the ends before removing the nuts.

:)

Will do. I think I may have an actual die which is the right size. I'll check in the tap and die set I described in post #98 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=140756&viewfull=1#post140756) in this thread.

Thanks for the advice!

[Jeff Kleiner]

...I just got back from Home Depot with my new Makita 18-Volt LXT Lithium-Ion Cordless Reciprocating Saw (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Makita-18-Volt-LXT-Lithium-Ion-Cordless-Reciprocating-Saw-Tool-Only-BJR182Z/202352525). Talk about catharsis!

I'm going to see if I can use the new saw to cut down those wheel studs....

Give it a try and let us know how it goes but the lugs are very hard and I suspect you'd have better luck and get cleaner cuts using a thin kerf cutoff wheel with an angle or die grinder.

Keep plugging away at it and enjoy the journey!

Jeff

[carbon-12]

Just wondering, do you have a theme in mind with the wheels you're running? I like them.

Thanks! I like the look of CSX2001 (https://www.google.com/search?q=csx2001), the first production Cobra. I'm thinking of painting my car in black as well, although I don't think I'll add the meatballs and #1.

26876

[carbon-12]

Give it a try and let us know how it goes but the lugs are very hard and I suspect you'd have better luck and get cleaner cuts using a thin kerf cutoff wheel with an angle or die grinder.

Keep plugging away at it and enjoy the journey!

Jeff

Thanks. I won't be too disappointed if the new saw doesn't work for this application, but I've wanted a reciprocating saw for a long time, and this was my excuse. :)

[MPTech]

Thanks! I like the look of CSX2001 (https://www.google.com/search?q=csx2001), the first production Cobra. I'm thinking of painting my car in black as well, although I don't think I'll add the meatballs and #1.



You picked a very cool example, that's been one of my favorites. Very aggressive looking black on black on black!

I agree with Jeff, using a reciprocating saw may tear up the threads pretty bad.
I've found a thin cutoff wheel or dremel to be great for cutting bolts, then I run them on my wire-wheel to smooth the thread cuts on the end. (don't know if you'll be able to do that if you have the studs installed, but you need to clean them up so you don't have issues with the lug nuts)

[carbon-12]

Since I like the look of 15" wheels with spinners, I ordered the FIA Pin Drive Wheel Set (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/fia-pin-drive-wheel-set/) from Factory Five at the same time I ordered my kit. Once the wheels arrived, I had them powder coated black, and fitted with a set of Avon CR6ZZ tires (http://www.avonmotorsport.com/historic/road-legal/cr6zz).

Since I have the front and rear suspension together, the next step is to put the wheels and tires on the car, lower it off the jack stands, and set in on the ground to adjust the ride height and do some basic alignment. I hope to get to those jobs this weekend.

But this was my goal last weekend, too, and if you've been following along on this thread, you'll know that I ran into a snag—the studs protruding from my wheel hubs were too long for the pin nuts. The pin nut tightening tool wouldn't have enough grip to torque the nuts to 60 ft-lbs. I needed to shave off about 1/4" from the ends of the studs.

26931
The pin nut tightening tool and a pin nut. The end of the tightening tool which is facing up fits into the end of the pin nut which is facing up. Fit the other end of the tightening tool into a socket to torque the pin nut to 60 ft-lbs.

My original idea to cut the studs was to use a reciprocating saw, and I even went out to buy such a saw (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Makita-18-Volt-LXT-Lithium-Ion-Cordless-Reciprocating-Saw-Tool-Only-BJR182Z/202352525), since I didn't have one in my tool crib (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/1/2/on-tool-cribs). However, I got some expert (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=143258&viewfull=1#post143258) advice (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=143300&viewfull=1#post143300) from Jeff Kleiner and MPTech, and they persuaded my to use a Dremel tool (http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/Pages/CategoryProducts.aspx?catid=2013) for the job instead. Since I have one of those (http://www.dremel.com/en-us/Tools/Pages/ToolDetail.aspx?pid=4000#.UyRuyNwvcmc), I fitted it with a metal cutoff wheel, and gave it a go.

26932
The sparks flew as I cut the wheel studs with a Dremel tool.

It worked great. Since the threads on the rear studs don't start until a 1/4" from the end, I didn't need to worry about fouling the end of the threads. I just needed to cut off the unthreaded portion. Even so, as a precaution, I threaded on a die before making each cut, but I've now cut the five studs for each of the rear wheels, and I didn't need the die's help to fix up the threads. After making each cut, I dressed the end of each stud with a wire wheel fitted to the Dremel tool, then I blew the whole wheel area with compressed air (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2013/12/4/compressor). All the pin nuts screwed on with the lightest hand pressure.

26930
Putting a pin drive wheel on. From left to right: hub, add brake rotor, add pin drive wheel adapter, add pin nuts, put wheel on, thread on spinner. Once the ride height is set, I'll put the car back on jack stands, take the wheels back off, and fit the rear brakes.

Today, as I said earlier, I plan to trim down the studs on the front hubs, put on all four wheels, and set the car on the ground. Once I do that, my kit will be a roller!

[MPTech]

Good to hear that worked for you.
In retrospect, I guess you could have had those studs removed and shorter ones pressed in, but this works too.

Your wheels look great!

[carbon-12]

Good to hear that worked for you.
In retrospect, I guess you could have had those studs removed and shorter ones pressed in, but this works too.

Your wheels look great!

Thanks! And thanks very much for the advice, too! Either way, cutting or replacing meant an extra step, and I'm happy with how the cutting option turned out. All good. On to the next task...

[Jeff Kleiner]

See, that was

http://on3dprinting.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/20121129-Staples-3D-Printing-Easy-Button.jpg

Happy to hear that it was a success!

Jeff

[carbon-12]

As I said in my previous post, my goal for this past weekend was to get my car to the “roller” state: all four wheels on the car and sitting on the ground without jackstands. I didn't succeed. While I could get the front wheels on the car, they obviously looked wrong, with several degrees of positive camber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camber_angle).

27009
Several degrees of positive camber. Obviously wrong.

I did a couple forum searches, but since I didn't really know what I was looking for, it didn't help.

For several hours on Sunday, I was thinking it was my fault. I figured that I had botched some part of the installation of the front upper or lower control arms. I partially disassembled the passenger side front suspension, and went back over the steps in the assembly manual. I also watched and rewatched the video Factory Five posted which showed the assembly of the front suspension (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBJ5dKLrhoU). A buddy came over, and we talked it over, too.

It looked to me that I had done everything right as it was described in the manual and video, and after puzzling over it for a long time, I decided there was something I was missing.

I went back over my parts list, paying specific attention to the Parts On Order (POL) sheet, which showed those parts which were on back order when my kit shipped to me in late January. I found mention of this item:

- 12507 Pin Drive Front Suspension Ball Joint Bracket

I had no idea what this part was for or what it looked like, but it seemed like a promising lead to persue.

About three weeks ago, I received a big box of additional parts from Factory Five. I expected that since the box contained my Certificate of Origin and Chassis Serial Number Plate, that there were no further outstanding parts. On a technical support phone call I placed to Factory Five about a month ago, the fellow on the phone said that the certificate and number plate were the two very last things I would receive as part of my kit. Unfortunately, the box of additional parts had no bill of lading specific to it, so I couldn't tick off the parts other than by looking at my original POL sheet. There were a couple parts I couldn't readily identify, but as has happened a couple of times already in my build, I thought I would figure it out when the parts were called for in the assembly manual.

So, I went forward on the assumption that I had the ball joint bracket in my possession. I gave a look through all my parts, but nothing jumped out. The next step was to search the forums again, but even with terms like “pin drive front suspension ball joint bracket”, there wasn't any conclusive information. Next, I looked on the Factory Five parts website. I searched for “12507”, and I found this part (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/pin-drive-width-spindle-adapter-bracket/). Once I saw this, I knew that I had never seen anything like it. My suspicion that I was “missing something” ceased to be figurative—I was literally missing a part.

I started to think that the discrepancy was with my decision to go with pin drive width in the front and rear of my kit, and that the assembly manual and video simply didn't cover this variation of the build in full detail.

I decided to give Factory Five a call this morning. Once I explained my situation, the support technician on the phone confirmed that I still have one (and only one) part on back order. You can guess which was it was: 12507. He explained that this part changes the front suspension geometry so that the positive camber is no longer an issue.

The technician went off to see when they could get the part to me, and the man he spoke to in the welding department said that they were still waiting for some stock to make up a big batch of these parts, but that they had enough raw material on hand to make one for me today. That was a nice gesture. They must have followed through as well, since I got a shipping notice later in the day. I asked them to ship it two-day freight at my expense, so I should have it later in the week.

27010
The missing part.

In the end, there was no way I could have assembled the front suspension correctly, but there was little sign that I was going astray, either in assembly manual or video. Instead, I needed to play the detective.

So, I don't have a roller yet, but once those parts arrive, there shouldn't be anything else in my way.

[edwardb]

That part is used for donor Fox or SN-95 Mustang spindles to convert them from the original Ford suspension design of a McPherson strut arrangement to using an upper A-frame and ball joint setup in the Roadster. The listing on the FFR parts page explains this as well. Your previous pictures all show the newer Factory Five designed spindles. A ball joint bracket (adapter) is not required for these spindles.

[2bking]

It appears your lower control arm is different from mine. I looked at pictures of other arms and yours has the gussets in different places and seems to be shorter. Here is a picture of my assembly:
27036

Perhaps your lower control arms are for a different kit.

Also, I was thinking pin drive used the inboard mounting holes for the lower A arms and upper bolt holes for the upper control arm to account for the spacers needed to convert to pin drive. With your lower control arm, that would make it worse.

[aspbite]

According to FFR the newer spindles will not work with the pin drive width. You need the SN-95 spindles with the adapters you just received. I received the new spindles w/adapters in my pin drive width kit as well and had to send them back for an exchange. Pin drive lower control arms are shorter as well.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Aspbite has it. You've put together an incompatible combination; you can't use pin drive components with the FFR spindles. Spindle adapter #12507 is not for use with the proprietary FFR spindles but rather '87 thru '04 Mustang units. For the best geometry, bump steer and track width seek out a pair of 1994 or 1995 Mustang spindles. They can be identified by the "dogleg" bend in the steering arm as shown below:

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/content/tech_info/front_susp/images/94-95vs96-98spindle.jpg

The straight arm of '96 and later versions produce less favorable bump steer. Another factor in favor of the '94/'95 units is that the '96 and later spindles set the front wheels out ~3/8" farther per side which can pose tire fit issues with some combinations.

Additionally you'll need to make a simple modification to the SN95 spindles to fit the PBR calipers that were included with your complete kit. The two "ears" that the caliper barcket bolts to will need to be ground down slightly (hey, maybe an opporitunity to buy more tools :)). It will be pretty self explanitory when you put the parts together and will wind up something like this:

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/techarticles/images/spindle.jpg

Good luck (I hope you didn't think this was going to be like putting together Legos :D),
Jeff

[aspbite]

Contact FFR. They will send you a pre-paid shipping ticket to send those back and provide you with the right spindles. They sent mine out the same day I called even before I sent the old ones back.

[carbon-12]

Thanks everyone. Great help.

I got right on the phone with Factory Five. I have the wrong spindles. They'll be sending me some 1994 SN95 spindles and some new hubs. They'll also be emailing me a return shipping slip for the spindles, steering arms, and hubs I have right now.

Jeff, you're right that this kit is not like Legos, but with the expert help on this forum, and the quick responses from Factory Five, a guy like me has some hope to get everything together.

Thanks again!

[MPTech]

Hang in there Ken!

We'll get you through this! It's not brain surgery, but it's also not as simple as some guys believe, especially if you haven't been there before (or if FFR sends you the wrong parts! :eek:)
After you resolve the issue, then you look at it and go "Oh yeah, of course!" ;)

btw, where are you located? Any local FFR guys? (they can be a tremendous source of knowledge. Also any chance of going to LCS this year? It can EXTREMELY motivating! :cool:

[David Hodgkins]

LCS? Nah, he's from Cali; He's going to the HB show.

Right Ken??

:)

[Jeff Kleiner]

Ken,
Be aware that with the switch to donor type spindles you'll need to change your upper control arms to the top mount position rather than side mount.

Cheers,
Jeff

[carbon-12]

Ken,
Be aware that with the switch to donor type spindles you'll need to change your upper control arms to the top mount position rather than side mount.

Cheers,
Jeff

I've noticed the top holes, but I wouldn't have known to use them. Thanks!

[carbon-12]

LCS? Nah, he's from Cali; He's going to the HB show.

Right Ken??

:)

I knew nothing about the Huntington Beach show until you mentioned it. It's April 26, 2014, right. If so, I can't make it. My wife is heading out on international travel that day, and I'm on single-parent duty. Too bad!

Are there any other California events I should know about?

[carbon-12]

“No news is good news” is a cliche which doesn't apply to updates on my Roadster build. If I've made progress, I'm very happy to report on it. The implication is obvious. I still haven't made my kit into a roller, in spite of my best efforts.

The prospects were looking good as I headed into the weekend. I was hoping to finish up the front suspension, mount the wheels, and lower the car to the ground. On Friday evening when I returned home from work, I had two packages waiting for me from Factory Five. One contained the ball joint adapter brackets for the upper control arms—the missing part (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/17/missing-part) I discovered last weekend. The second contained SN-95 spindles from a 1994 Mustang, a new set of hubs, and nuts and bolts to mount the hubs and adapter brackets.

It turns out that I had the wrong set of spindles all along. Factory Five should have shipped me SN-95 spindles from the get-go, since the spindles they manufacture themselves don't work in the pin-drive setup. It was only through the kindness and expertise of several forum contributors that I got this straightened out (start reading from this post (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=144136&viewfull=1#post144136) to see all the help I got... thanks guys!).

27197
The spindles, hubs, adapter brackets, and hardware. Looks good, right?

With these parts on hand, I thought I was set, yet quick inspection of the hardware revealed a problem. The parts list in the shipment shows these entries:

* 14514 Bolt, Flanged, M16-2.0 x 60mm (IFS bracket mounting). 4 in the set.
* 14515 Locknut, Flanged, Mechanical, M16-2.0 (IFS bracket mounting). 4 in the set.

Unfortunately, this is not what the box contained. Factory Five packed a wrong bolt.

27198
One of these things is not like the other. No ”three bolts” jokes, please.

I thought I could work around this temporarily by scrounging a bolt from some other part of the car, but since no other bolts on hand seemed to fit, I took a ride to Home Depot and bought a M16 8.8 bolt. This is just a placeholder, since the 14514 bolts are 10.9 bolts. I'll need to call Factory Five on Monday morning, and have them send the proper bolt—but it appeared this replacement would hold things in place well enough for work to proceed.

With that patch-up, I figured there would be nothing to stop me from finishing up the front suspension. In relatively short order, I mounted up the ball joint adapter brackets, put the spindles on the car, added the castle nuts, and gave them a few turns. I grabbed the hubs next, and went to put them on the spindles.

No good. They're not a slip fit like the spindles in the manual and the Factory Five assembly video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBJ5dKLrhoU#t=3m47s). They're a press fit, and I have no way in my garage to get the hubs seated. The same was true for the rear hubs and spindles, and I took them to my Lotus mechanic (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/6/safety-first) to have them to do the work. [EDIT: This is incorrect. The hubs are a slip fit. See post #140 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=145185&viewfull=1#post145185) in this thread for more information. Sorry for the confusion. –Ken]

I thought I might be able to use the arbor press at the TechShop in San Jose. I took the parts over there this morning, but I couldn't apply nearly enough force, even by leaning with all my weight on the very stout press handle. It looks like I'll need to phone the Lotus shop again.

So, sadly, another weekend will pass before I get the front suspension finished up. It's been a comedy of errors, with missing parts, incorrect parts, incomplete directions, the need for equipment I don't have on hand, and assembly mistakes. I take full credit for the last item in this list—I initially mounted the upper control arms wrong, but I'm a novice, and I'm bound to make such errors (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/1/rightside-up).

I don't see that there's any such excuse for Factory Five. I am disappointed that they made such a careless mistake on the bolt set they just shipped me, especially when this comes on top of sending the wrong spindles with my kit in the first place, and packing the wrong set of castle nuts (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/9/hit-some-snags), and making me call them nearly two months after kit-delivery day to spur them into welding me up a pair of ball joint adapter brackets. It shouldn't take four phone calls to tech support to get the correct front suspension parts.

I am as determined as ever to keep working through these problems, but I wish it didn't have to be such a struggle.

[MPTech]

You do seem to be having more than your fair share of issues. Sounds like FFR has been off their game, usually not this bad.
I had a couple small issues here and there, but nothing like you've encountered, but I just moved on to something else and came back when I had what I needed or figured it out.
I have heard some guys have an issue with the spindle hubs/bearings, but I didn't think they had to be pressed on. Did you look at posts on this issue on the other site too?

Hope things go better for you in the future.

[jrichards]

It does seem like they should have this down to a science by now. Even the fact that they have to ship back ordered parts rather than have a system where they have a few more parts on hand in advance of shipping kits seems like it would save them a lot expense in shipping and the labor costs to have their employees have to track all backordered parts and make sure the eventually get shipped. I ordered in early November and still waiting on parts. That seems like a long time for a company like Factory Five. Maybe focused on 818's? Aside from all of that though, I love this project!!!!!

[carbon-12]

You do seem to be having more than your fair share of issues. Sounds like FFR has been off their game, usually not this bad.
I had a couple small issues here and there, but nothing like you've encountered, but I just moved on to something else and came back when I had what I needed or figured it out.
I have heard some guys have an issue with the spindle hubs/bearings, but I didn't think they had to be pressed on. Did you look at posts on this issue on the other site too?

Hope things go better for you in the future.

Thanks. I've done some research this evening, and the general consensus is that the hubs should slip on. Some people use emery paper. Some other people recommend upgrading from the hubs Factory Five ships with the kit.

I'm going to look into this some more tomorrow, and then make a decision.

[carbon-12]

It does seem like they should have this down to a science by now. Even the fact that they have to ship back ordered parts rather than have a system where they have a few more parts on hand in advance of shipping kits seems like it would save them a lot expense in shipping and the labor costs to have their employees have to track all backordered parts and make sure the eventually get shipped. I ordered in early November and still waiting on parts. That seems like a long time for a company like Factory Five. Maybe focused on 818's? Aside from all of that though, I love this project!!!!!

Yeah, the project is fun, and even with all the troubles I'm having, it's a good time. Hopefully, calmer seas are just over the horizon.

[carbon-12]

I made a mistake in my previous post (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/23/almost-but-not-quite) when I said that the front wheel hubs are a press fit. They're not. They must slide right on when you get them really lined up on the spindle. So say the experts (http://www.ffcars.com/forums/17-factory-five-roadsters/235633-front-hubs-dont-fit.html) in the forums (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/archive/index.php/t-4923.html).

The issue is that the outer diameter of the spindle and the inner diameter of the wheel bearing are almost exactly the same. With my calipers, I measured both as 1.360".

The suggestions for providing some clearance for the wheel bearing come in three main varieties:


Hammering. Not recommended. Not even a little. Apparently it's too easy to mess up the bearing, and it will no longer spin true.
Changing temperature. Some have had success with putting the spindle in the freezer, heating the hub and bearing (in the oven or under a hot lamp), and using the resulting contraction and expansion to get the necessary clearance. There are mixed opinions on this method, ranging from concerns over damaging the metal by heating it too much, or fouling the grease, or winding up with mated pieces that won't come apart easily down the road when servicing is required. Others say the worries are overblown.
Rubbing with emery cloth. This boils down to removing a very small amount of material from the spindle until the hub slides on. I couldn't find any major downsides to this method, apart from taking some care to keeping the rubbing evenly distributed around the spindle. That seemed to be to be a reasonably minor worry, since not much metal needs to come off.



I chose method #3. This evening, I went to Home Depot after dinner, and bought myself two packages of Norton MetalSand 3-Piece 9"x11". Emery Cloth (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Norton-MetalSand-3-Piece-9-in-x-11-in-F-M-C-Grit-Emery-Cloth-Set-47855/100051638). It took me about a half hour of rubbing using a shoe-shiner motion with the coarse grit paper in the set, but once I got enough metal off the spindle, the hub slid right on. I measured with my calipers, and it looks like I took off somewhere between one and two thousandths.

I'll do the next hub tomorrow night. It's nice to have some success.

27253

[DaleG]

Why has this been a recurring issue? Poor mfg'ing quality control, or what?

[carbon-12]

Why has this been a recurring issue? Poor mfg'ing quality control, or what?

I don't know what the cause could be. I'll see tonight if the second hub and spindle need the same amount of “persuasion” as the first.

[carbon-12]

After many (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/15/cutting-wheel-studs) twists (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/17/missing-part) and turns (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/23/almost-but-not-quite), I have a roller. Last night, I lowered the car onto its wheels for the first time.

27304

I started the evening off by fitting the second wheel hub onto its spindle. This took a half hour of working on the spindle with emery cloth, much like the other hub and spindle (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/24/one-hub-on). A couple posts back, you see that DaleG questioned the quality control on these parts, but these two sets took just about the same amount of “convincing” to come together, almost as if it was meant to be that way.

In any case, once I had the hubs on the spindles, it was only about another half hour to get the brakes on, the pin drive adapters screwed into place, the wheels mounted, and the car dropped off the jack stands.

There's still a bit of work to do to finish up. For instance, I didn't torque nuts and bolts fully to specs.

There was also a matter of the driver-side castle nut on the upper ball joint. I got it turned a couple times, but then it started spinning the ball joint rod instead of threading on. This evening, I tried clamping it in several different ways, but the angle of the upper control arm, and the relatively inaccessible position of the castle nut in the adapter, made it difficult to get enough pressure applied to seat the spindle on the ball joint rod, and stop the rod from spinning when I turned the nut. Eventually, I put my floor jack under the lower control arm to prevent it from moving downwards, then I called my wife to the garage. I handed her the ratchet, and she turned the nut while I leaned on the upper control arm with all my weight. That did the trick. After about two or three turns, the nut provided enough of its own pressure the stop the rod from spinning.

Starting tomorrow, I'll check over the work again, and start torquing nuts and bolts down. I also need to put on the rear brakes. Hopefully, by the end of the coming weekend, I'll be done with a rudimentary alignment. Then, I'll be ready to move on to another part of the car.

[DaleG]

Good practice is to dab the connection with a spot of paintstick after it is torqued/tightened; that way a final check will uncover any remaining to be addressed.

[carbon-12]

Good practice is to dab the connection with a spot of paintstick after it is torqued/tightened; that way a final check will uncover any remaining to be addressed.

Great. Will do.

[carbon-12]

This weekend, I wanted to finish up work on the front suspension, and get everything in shape for torquing down all the nuts and bolts. Yet, I'm leery of every little thing which looks awry, given all (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/17/missing-part) the troubles (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/23/almost-but-not-quite) I've had to get to this point.

I had a bit of an issue yesterday afternoon with getting the castle nut tightened down on passenger side lower control arm. After threading it on several revolutions, further turns just spun the ball joint. The problem was that the spacer under the castle nut was causing interference with the beggining of the taper on the ball joint tie rod. I did a little work with my Dremel tool on the inside diameter of the spacer, put an M16 washer under it, and all was well.

Once I got the castle nuts on the upper and lower control arms tightened to their full torque values, I took a look at the geometry of the wheel hub. Unfortunately, even if I take up all the slack on the adjustment sleeves for the upper control arms, I still have about 1.5º of positive camber. I don't see any way I could get any negative camber with the setup as it is now.

Here are some pictures. Does anybody see a problem with how I've put things together? I did a little poking around on the forums, and I also saw some mention of different length adjustment sleeves available in the aftermarket. The ones which came with the control arms are 4" long. Would shorter sleeves help?

27444 27447 27445 27446

[DaleG]

Others will correct me if I'm wrong, but won't all work out when you have wheels/tires on and sitting on the ground?

[carbon-12]

Others will correct me if I'm wrong, but won't all work out when you have wheels/tires on and sitting on the ground?

I sure hope you're right. Thanks for the help.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Ken,
You've got the suspension hanging at full droop. Until you are at or near ride height you won't get an accurate indication of camber. You can put the wheels on and drop it on the ground or extrapolate it and simulate the final configuration while on the chassis dolly or jackstands and adjust accordingly:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Mk4%207276/100_1801.jpg

I think once you do that you'll see that it is much better.

BTW, I've not checked in on your progress for a few days but your experience with getting the bearings installed on the spindles is pretty typical and does not indicate a parts "issue". Remember the spindle and bearing are OEM components, not FFR specific. There are millions of these same pieces assembled and running up and down the highways. The spindle to bearing interface is a near zero clearance fit by design; the ID of the bearing and OD of the spindle need to go together and lock down with no slop. Don't take this the wrong way 'cause that's not how it is intended but these are one of those things that assembly technique really plays into making the difference between going together smoothly and being a royal pain in the rear!

Cheers,
Jeff

[carbon-12]

Great help, Jeff. Since every procedure is new to me, I'm never sure whether “making parts fit” is the right thing to do. With your guidance, I now know that a little work with emery cloth to get my hubs on my spindles was correct. That's a relief.

This evening, to get a more accurate picture of the front end geometry, I'll try to make a setup like your picture.

Thanks!

[Jeff Kleiner]

Ken,
In the photo above I was doing a rough alignment with the chassis in position based on tire diameter and approximate final ride height but you can do a quick and easy check for how the suspension will finish up at ride height by simply moving the lower control arms to be horizontal/parallel with the ground:

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/Mk4%207276/100_1804-1.jpg

You'll probably need to back off the spring adjustment collars to do this.

Jeff

[skullandbones]

Carbon 12,

I feel your pain!!! I, too, had some issues early on when I changed my mind to go with a 5.0 version instead of the original decision to build a 4.6. I still have both build manuals to remind me of my err. Unfortunately, I think this can cause problems in the logistics of getting the parts right the first time with FFR. Not making excuses for them but it does complicate the process. Sorry you spent so much time getting it fixed but it looks like you are well on your way to "smooth sailing" for awhile. BTW, if you think you wasted your time with this little bump in the road, you really didn't. Now you can give expert advise on pin drive suspension components and related subjects. Good luck on your progress, WEK.

[carbon-12]

Carbon 12,

I feel your pain!!! I, too, had some issues early on when I changed my mind to go with a 5.0 version instead of the original decision to build a 4.6. I still have both build manuals to remind me of my err. Unfortunately, I think this can cause problems in the logistics of getting the parts right the first time with FFR. Not making excuses for them but it does complicate the process. Sorry you spent so much time getting it fixed but it looks like you are well on your way to "smooth sailing" for awhile. BTW, if you think you wasted your time with this little bump in the road, you really didn't. Now you can give expert advise on pin drive suspension components and related subjects. Good luck on your progress, WEK.

Thanks for the encouragement. I definitely know more about pin drive suspension components and related subjects than when I started, and if I can help anyone else out on the forum, I certainly will.

[carbon-12]

Ken,
In the photo above I was doing a rough alignment with the chassis in position based on tire diameter and approximate final ride height but you can do a quick and easy check for how the suspension will finish up at ride height by simply moving the lower control arms to be horizontal/parallel with the ground:

[picture]

You'll probably need to back off the spring adjustment collars to do this.

Jeff

Jeff, thanks again for the help, and for the additional picture.

This evening, I went to Harbor Freight and Home Depot, and picked up this “rough alignment kit”. I bought two levels, two tape measures, four large clamps, two small clamps, and two four-foot angled steel bars. It's a bit late for me to start working tonight, but I'll see what I can do with it tomorrow.

27559

[carbon-12]

Going into this weekend, I was still concerned about the positive camber of my front wheels. Earlier this week, I got some (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=146421&viewfull=1#post146421) advice (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=146637&viewfull=1#post146637) on the Factory Five forums which helped me understand how to get a more accurate measurement. So far, I've been looking at my suspension at full droop, i.e. fully extended in the downward direction. To get a more realistic sense of camber, I need to measure with the suspension at ride height, and I can get a reasonable of that by dropping the car off the jack stands so that the weight of the front falls on the lower control arms, thus bringing them close to being parallel with the ground. In the back, the wheels go down on the floor.

I made this configuration this morning, but even so, I still had positive camber on both front wheels of about 1.25–1.5°, even though the sleeves on the upper control arms were at their maximum inward adjustment (i.e. screwed all the way in).

27699
With the front wheels near ride height, I still had positive camber.

There might be several explanations for this positive camber:


I'm still not measuring right.
I have more incorrect parts (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/23/almost-but-not-quite).
I've put things together incorrectly (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/2/26/upside-down).
The parts I have are correct, but for some reason, the combined slop, blown tolerances, etc. all came out against me, and I need different or modified parts.
This will work itself out when I install the engine and the proper amount of weight is applied to the suspension, and I should stop fretting for now.


Explanation #5 is particularly intriguing to me, since I found these slightly shorter adjustment sleeves (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sps-92040/overview/). They're 3.75" long, in contrast to the 4" sleeves which came with the control arms. I ordered a pair to test with.

These shorter sleeves screw on just fine, but initially, the threaded rods coming off the end of the control arms wouldn't screw all the way in, even though there seemed to enough internal clearance, and the sleeves appeared to be threaded internally down their entire length. I got out a tap to see if the threads in the sleeves simply needed a little cleanup, and that appeared to be the case.

Once I got both sleeves replaced, I can now measure about 1.5° of negative camber when the shorter sleeves are screwed all the way in.

27698
Shorter upper control arm adjustment sleeves installed.

That's right, I finally have negative camber. This seems like progress.

Does anybody see any issues with this setup? If not, then I might finally have a workable front suspension setup. I have a second set of these shorter sleeves on order, and once they arrive, I'll install them, and make some more detailed measurements.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Good to hear that you're in the ballpark Ken. I've never built a pin drive car but think the configuration throws some curves at you, even under the best circumstances. If you are at approx. 1.5 degrees negative camber you should be at a good starting point. To end up somewhere around .5 degrees negative camber you'll lengthen both the front and rear adjustments. From that point to achieve ~3 degrees of positive caster you will shorten the rear leg and lengthen the front a similar amount. Your rears might ultimately need to be shorter still to accomplish this. If that turns out to be the case you can cut 1/8" or so from each end of the rear leg's sleeve. Until you are farther along and ready for a true full blown alignment I think you should take your own advice:


... I should stop fretting for now. ;)

Carry on and good luck!

Jeff

[carbon-12]

Jeff, thanks again for your help. I'll stop fretting. :)

I'll also file away your advice on camber and caster. Once the sleeves for the other side of the car arrive, and I get them mounted up, I'll move on to the next task: mounting the rear brakes.

[fordboy]

Hi, Ken...sorry to skew away from your camber issue, but whose steering rack are you using?? My kit was ready for pick up on 12/16/13, got it delivered 01/07/14 and my steering rack is about the last thing back-ordered and I'm starting to consider other options. Thks, Bob

[carbon-12]

Hi, Ken...sorry to skew away from your camber issue, but whose steering rack are you using?? My kit was ready for pick up on 12/16/13, got it delivered 01/07/14 and my steering rack is about the last thing back-ordered and I'm starting to consider other options. Thks, Bob

I plan to use the Factory Five manual steering rack (http://www.factoryfiveparts.com/manual-steering-rack/).

I did get a set of these offset rack bushings (http://www.jegs.com/i/BBK-Performance-Products/129/2508/10002/-1?parentProductId=750928), which as the name suggests, has an off-center hole. These offsets give you the chance to make some geometry adjustments, by rotating the bushing. This is in contrast to the bushings which ship with the kit—they have the hole right through the center.

I'm hardly a handling expert, but I figured that if I installed these offset bushings installed, some day better mechanics than me would be able to take advantage of them being there.

Good luck!

[carbon-12]

Since I got some feedback about the camber on my front wheels, I'll stop fretting (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=147401&viewfull=1#post147401) about it now, and leave further adjustments for later on in the project. (Thanks Jeff!)

So, this evening, I got out the rear brake calipers, pads, and hardware. I prepared for this work a little over the weekend by priming and painting the bare metal mounting bracket with some rattlecan Rustoleum, finishing off with some High Performance Enamel Spray (http://www.rustoleum.com/product-catalog/consumer-brands/professional/high-performance-enamel-spray). But other than this little bit of paint work, the installation took just a little more than a half hour. Coming off the front suspension work, which threw up every possible roadblock and difficulty in my path, it was a huge relief to have a project go smoothly.

I proudly declared victory for the day, turned off the garage light, and went inside the house.

27743

[carbon-12]

I've been extra busy with work lately, and that has gotten in the way of writing. Even so, I've kept up the work on the kit. Here's what I've been doing since my last update.

Front Suspension
I got two more adjustment sleeves (http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SPS-92040) for the upper control arms for the front suspension. Now both front wheels have negative camber. With that done, I set aside work on the front suspension for now.

28174
Shorter adjustment sleeves fitted on driver side.

Steering Rack
Now that finally got my front suspension into an approximately-correct geometry, I cut the inner tie rods to length and fitted the outer tie rods. I left plenty of extra length on the inner tie rods. I have a little more than two inches of engagement now, which should leave me enough even if I need to back off on the outer tie rods.

Gas Tank
I attached the gas tank… well… at least partially.

First off, I managed to damage the fuel tank vent as I was turning on the plastic bushing. Since I only have one 1" wrench, I mounted the plastic bushing in my vise, and turned on the vent with the wrench. I got the wrench in between the vent outlet and the vise, and since the vent metal is very soft, I sheered off the outlet as I turned to tighten. _Sigh_. I felt like a complete idiot. I ordered a replacement.

28173
Busted part. It took genuine anti-talent to do this.

Next, I fitted my Walbro fuel pump into its bracket (http://www.breezeautomotive.com/details.php?prod_id=715&cat_id=39). I got these parts from Breeze Automotive (http://www.breezeautomotive.com). I'm hoping that this in-tank pump will work well with my MSD Atomic (https://www.msdignition.com/products/atomic/) fuel injection system. I guess I'll see in a few more weeks once I've dropped in the engine, run some fuel lines, and hooked up some electrical connections.

After that, I struggled a bit with the gas tank itself. The fit of tank, straps, and chassis could have been better out of the box. I needed to bend the flanges on the tank to get it to mate up with the chassis better, but even after that, the straps still seem too short, especially on the passenger side. I ordered some longer socket cap bolts (https://www.boltdepot.com/Socket_cap_Zinc_plated_alloy_steel_3_8-16.aspx?Selected=15125) (3" long as opposed to the 2" longs bolts which come with the kit). They're due to arrive tomorrow, so I hope to make some more progress on the gas tank once they do.

28175
The passenger-side gas tank strap is too short. There's no way the 2" bolt in the kit will engage. In this picture, you see a 3" bolt I tested out. Unfortunately, this bolt won't work, since the upper mount is too narrow to get a wrench or socket on it to tighten. Ugh. I ordered 3" socket cap bolts.

Aluminum
The next step in the manual is passenger-side footbox aluminum, and I made some good progress this weekend. Since I plan to mark and drill all my panels before doing any riveting (on the expert advice of MPTech (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?13200-Three-Bolts-Mk-4-Roadster-Build&p=138994&viewfull=1#post138994)), I'm using clecos during the fitting, and #6 self-tapping screws once I have all the holes drilled where I want them. I hope to move on to the driver-side footbox soon.

28176
Passenger footbox coming together.

[MPTech]

Your PS FB looks great, but if you are going 302 or 351, I'd HIGHLY recommend the PS FB mod. Your passengers would thank you if they knew how tight the original was. (I couldn't remember if you were going mod motor or otherwise.)

[Jeff Kleiner]

Good progress Ken. Strictly an aesthetic thing but you might want reconfigure your mockup so that the horizontal tabs for the engine side panel of the footbox are under the top panel rather than over. It will appear something like this (this is a Mk3 so the panels are shaped a bit different but they orient the same):

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_0417.jpg

Keep it up :)

Jeff

[stroked 6t5]

I would also go with the PS footbox mod. I'm running a coyote and I did it and it was well worth the effort as you can stretch your legs right out.
Andy

[carbon-12]

Good progress Ken. Strictly an aesthetic thing but you might want reconfigure your mockup so that the horizontal tabs for the engine side panel of the footbox are under the top panel rather than over. It will appear something like this (this is a Mk3 so the panels are shaped a bit different but they orient the same):

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj43/jkleiner/100_0417.jpg

Keep it up :)

Jeff

Thanks. I'll change the horizontal tabs.

[carbon-12]

I'm going with a 302, so I'll look into the PS footbox mod. Thanks for the suggestions, folks.

[carbon-12]

Over the past two weeks, I've been working on creating new sheet metal pieces for my passenger footbox. The parts which come with the kit can be used with a larger engine than I'm putting in my car, so in order to use the leftover space, I need to make them myself.

I didn't make the decision lightly. I've been looking to hit a smoother stride on the project after the difficulties of the front suspension (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/3/30/camber-still-doesnt-look-right) and gas tank (http://www.threebolts.com/updates/2014/4/20/catching-up). But even so, I decided to give this passenger footbox customization a try. I figured that I could always fallback to parts provided in the kit if I fail to get the customization work done to my standards.

This is a concern, since I've never done any kind of work like this. It took a few days of experimenting with various techniques to put together a series of steps which might work.

Here's what I did.

Plans
I started with drawings I downloaded from the other forum (search for “passenger footbox”). These were scaled to a standard sheet of paper—way too small to be used as a real pattern. There are five sheets in all.

Scale
I opened the plans in Adobe Illustrator (http://www.adobe.com/products/illustrator.html) and enlarged them to 1:1 scale.

Print
I printed them out in tiles with 1" overlap between the pages. This means it took between nine and fifteen pages to represent the reproduce the entire drawing.

Tape
With these pages in hand, I spread them out our kitchen table and taped them together, being careful to get the alignment and spacing between the pages just right, to ensure that the measurements came out correctly.

Poster Board
Once this was done, I taped this collection of pages to a piece of large poster board.

28876

Cut
I cut through the pattern and the posterboard to create a full-size template of the piece.

Identify
I printed out an 8.5" x 11" version of the plan for the piece and taped it down onto the full-size template.

Repeat
I repeated with the other four pieces.

Bend and Install Paper Template
With all the pieces cut out, I took them out to the garage and “installed” them on the car, bending the pieces as indicated on the plans.

----

That's where I am now. The templates fit pretty well. There are some issues in the corners, in the places where three pieces come together, and starting tomorrow night, I'm going to see what I can do make a better fit, altering the templates as needed.

28874 28873 28875

From here, I plan to trace the templates onto 6061 0.040" aluminum (http://www.onlinemetals.com/merchant.cfm?pid=1240&step=4&showunits=inches&id=76&top_cat=60) (which I ordered from Online Metals (http://www.onlinemetals.com) and already have on hand), and then cut them out at the TechShop (http://techshop.ws) in San Jose. They have several sheet metal tools on hand which should allow me to make all the cuts I need.

Lastly, I'll need to put the bends in the cut out metal. I'm a bit worried about that, but I'll try to make some angled templates. I'll do the best I can.

I hope to have my modifications and tracings ready for an early Saturday morning trip to the TechShop.

[MPTech]

Looks great Ken! I think you'll really like it, the size increase is significant. (the sad part is, your passenger will not know what you did, but YOU WILL! ride in an older model to see why this is such a GREAT MOD)

A couple points I'd improve if I did it again.
1. The outside panel at the rear had a funny cut-out for previous models that is not necessary for the mk4. (that's good! One less thing to cut out!)
2. The side panel on the engine side has 2 round cutouts, at the back of the panel that goes over the 4" main tube and the cut-out at the front that goes over the smaller front tube. Take your time cutting and fitting these for a tight fit. I did pretty well in the rear, but for the front cutout I ended up making an extra small plate to fit tightly around the hole and siliconed it in. Part of the issue is you have cut a "U" shape to go over the top, so there are small gaps on the bottom of the "U". I slid my new plate in from back to front.

Something else I did, was cut an additional 1/8" floor panel and siliconed / riveted it to the bottom when I installed the .040 floor panel. I did this to reduce the oil-can effect in the floor and also applied truck-bed liner to the bottom / outside surface. I made the extra panel so I didn't have to bend such a thick piece. It's just flat and attached to the bottom panel. Not necessary, but I like it!
Another thing I did, but totally un-necessary, was added Stainless Steel heat shields to the outside, next to the headers. I really didn't have a heat problem when I drove in gel-coat, but I really like the look in the engine bay.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/IMG_2004_zpsb4270d5e.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/IMG_2005_zpsa42070e5.jpg

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/IMG_2003_zps77b3cab2.jpg


Here's the difference I realized when I outlined the old panel on the new floor. You can also see some of the gap I had on the front round tube.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a78/MPTech/P1280002.jpg

Hope this helps!

[carbon-12]

Yes! Great help! I looked over your work just now, but I'll need to study it more closely this evening when I have my car in front of me. Thanks!

[David Hodgkins]

I'm doing this mod right now. Good timing and thanks for posting pics! On question: on the outsid panel toward the front it looks like there is no tab to attach it to the floor panel. did either of you add one?

:)

[carbon-12]

I'm doing this mod right now. Good timing and thanks for posting pics! On question: on the outsid panel toward the front it looks like there is no tab to attach it to the floor panel. did either of you add one?

:)

You're right. There is no tab in the custom plans. I don't know if I should add one. I don't think the kit-provided panels have a tab either.

[carbon-12]

A couple points I'd improve if I did it again.
1. The outside panel at the rear had a funny cut-out for previous models that is not necessary for the mk4. (that's good! One less thing to cut out!)


Yep. I saw this. I squared this off on my template after I took my pictures.



2. The side panel on the engine side has 2 round cutouts, at the back of the panel that goes over the 4" main tube and the cut-out at the front that goes over the smaller front tube. Take your time cutting and fitting these for a tight fit. I did pretty well in the rear, but for the front cutout I ended up making an extra small plate to fit tightly around the hole and siliconed it in. Part of the issue is you have cut a "U" shape to go over the top, so there are small gaps on the bottom of the "U". I slid my new plate in from back to front.


Great advice. I'll take extra care as I do my fittings for this panel.

Thanks!

[carbon-12]

I just finished up a very busy month of work in my job, and I finally have a bit of brain power left over to write an update.

Since my last post, I spent all my time on the kit working on the aluminum. Unfortunately, a lot of this effort won't wind up on the finished car. This is another way of saying that I decided to give up on making custom panels for my passenger footbox. In the end, my skills just weren't up to it, and although I invested something close to thirty hours trying to make everything fit right and look good, I was forced to admit that they didn't.

The anti-epiphany came two weekends ago when I put the kit-supplied panels back on the car after a long and frustrating session of trimming and fitting my custom panels. There was no denying that the panels in the kit fit so much better. So, I'm going back to them. This is disappointing, but I'm glad I made the effort. I had never even attempted to cut and bend sheet metal before, and making a paseenger footbox was a pretty difficult first project. I learned a lot along the way, and I'll be better off the next time I try my hand at custom sheet metal fabrication.

Since this change back to the kit panels, I've been doing more marking, drilling, and fitting. I now have the passenger footbox and floor done, and most of the driver side is together as well.

29920
The stock passenger footbox fitted once again.

29921
Driver side cockpit aluminum coming along.

I also fell behind on keeping my Lotus looking spiffy, so I need to wash the daily driver. I might be done with aluminum for this afternoon, but even so, I think I can finish up the driver panels in the next couple of evenings, and complete the rest of the cockpit aluminum in a few days more.

[carbon-12]

This past weekend was the first in a couple months where I focused more on the car than on my day job—that means I made some progress.

I finally finished up the cockpit aluminum by attaching the large piece which goes behind the driver and passenger seats.

30775
No rivets yet, just clecos, then self-tapping screws.

30774
The two panels on the sides were part of my powder coating practice. Eventually, all the panels will get the same treatment.

Once done, I tried to start making sense of fuel delivery. Since I ordered my crate engine with an MSD Atomic fuel injection system, I won't be running hard lines for fuel. The directions from MSD are very clear on that point. Instead, the fuel injection kit comes with some sturdy 5/8" OD rubber-ish tubing. That will certainly be simpler to run from the tank up to the engine, and since I won't be using a return line, and I already put together my in-tank fuel pump, I hope this step will go pretty easily. I also drilled a hole in the 4" tube under the passenger seat to secure the fuel filter. I ordered some 5/8" Cushioned Stainless Steel Cable Clamps to secure the fuel line to the chassis. Once that arrives, I'll attach the fuel line and connect it to the fuel filter.

30772
Fuel filter.

After that, I attached the flexible brake lines to the front brakes. Then, I started thinking about running the hard brake lines. Since I've never bent brake lines before, I wanted to experiment with the shape I'd need to connect the front brakes, so I went out to Home Depot and bought some 1/8" steel rod. This worked well. Within a few minutes, I had a shape I can use to transfer to the hard line.

30773
This is half the bends I'll need to connect the front brakes with hard lines. The other half of the shape is a mirror image of this one.

I'll be out of town for a few days to celebrate a long Fourth of July weekend with my family, so this marks my pre-holiday stopping point. I'm looking forward to getting back, and pushing through this work, and the few additional steps left to go before installing the drive train.

[edwardb]

Just a hint. Before you mount the cockpit wall permanently, it's easier to first mount the trunk pieces right behind it. Some of the rivets on the trunk pieces are very difficult to reach otherwise.

[carbon-12]

Just a hint. Before you mount the cockpit wall permanently, it's easier to first mount the trunk pieces right behind it. Some of the rivets on the trunk pieces are very difficult to reach otherwise.

Thanks for the tip!

[DaleG]

Most of us find that out the hard way:o.