Seating / Gas Tank Conundrum

[Xusia]

The situation:

This is primarily a daily driver.
I need more leg room.
I want to have interior storage (for stuff, amps, subwoofer, whatever).
I want to use the stock seats & belts (because I think they are good enough and they came "free" with my donor).
I want to be able to drive the car on track for driver training, track days, and high performance driving events (no competition).

Because my Father-in-law can build me a custom gas tank for very little money, I had intended to "move" the gas tank location to the front. This simplified the rear firewall greatly, provided more than enough leg room, and decent enough storage room inside the cabin. Incidentally, this would mean no sway bar for me. I could probably work around it, but it would limit tank capacity and just generally be in the way. Besides, I can get around it by running stiffer front springs (this according to Jim at FFR).

The problem I'm seeing is that because it's a convertible, 5 or 6 point belts seem to be required. I suppose I don't mind fitting them (welding in a harness bar is no big deal), but can you use them with stock seats? For daily driving I'd want to retain the OEM 3-point belts, using the harness only when necessary. If I have to go with aftermarket seats for harness compatibility, I'm thinking I would lose the ability to use the OEM 3-point belts, which I REALLY want to be able to use for convenience. I really don't want to be stuck using a harness all the time.

At 6' tall, I'm also worried that I may not be able to sit low enough with the stock seats and a helmet to pass a broomstick test. I wouldn't mind removing some foam from the seat, if that were necessary.

Anyway, I'm looking for some help & guidance here. Thanks guys.

[K3LAG]

Most aftermarket reclining seats that I have looked at will accommodate both 3-point and 4+ point belts. In some cases, you may have to pay a small 'option' fee to have the slot cut for the 5th belt.

Larry

[billjr212]

which stock seats do you have? (sorry, I'm being lazy, i'm sure there is a picture somewhere in your build thread) Even if you have the ones that have the separate headrest, you can run the shoulder belts around the headrest posts and sew and strap between the shoulder harnesses just behind your back to keep them from separating. I believe they also sell something at summit racing to accomplish this.

Then all you need is something for the 5th point. Some have argued in roadster threads that simply running it around the front of the seat bottom is fine (for those with the low back buckets). After all, the purpose of that belt is simply to keep the lap belt from riding up and allowing you to submarine under. Others will argue that you will need to cut some sort of opening in the bottom seat cushion to run the 5th point through.

[Xusia]

My stock seats have the separate head rest, so I think I would be good there. Where I'm a bit bothered is the 5th belt, because I want to retain the sliding ability of the stock seats (or aftermarket, if that's how I wind up going).

[billjr212]

hadn't thought about the sliding and the fact that it will lengthen and shorten the sub belt (my seat is on a slider, but I'm the only one that drives the car, so hasn't been an issue). Basically then you need the 5th point to have the adjust-ability near the buckle rather than the (sort-of) adjustable link at the mounting point as it is on the 5 point harness that comes with the roadster. I have to assume that exists. I did a quick google search on "adjustable submarine belt" and quite a few options popped up.

[JeromeS13]

Please, for the love of God and your own safety, do not run a 5/6 point harness with a stock seat.

[Mechie3]

the 5/6 points are supposed to run down between your legs. Legitimately there'd be a hole there. I've seen them put across the front of the seats in Subarus as "passable" but not desirable.

Height will be an issue. I'm 6' tall and with my bimarco's mounted ~1" off the floor my head barely clears the broomstick.

[wleehendrick]

Xusia, I'd look into NRG seats... they're a drop in the bucket compared to what you just spent on the motor, good quality for the price and most have a sub slot. You can mount them very low on the floor. I prefer more of a 'laid back' position due to my back injury... I adjusted the side-mounts on my NRG seats to provide this, it has the side benefit of providing extra 'headroom' (since your effective torso height is reduced by the cosine of the recline angle). The slots for the shoulder harnesses line up perfectly with the frame cross member and I have plenty of clearance below the roll bar (I'm also ~6').

[FFRSpec72]

Here is the combo I'm going with

25773

[Xusia]

I thank everyone who responded. It looks like if I want to be able to drive the car on the track (for any reason), I'm going to need aftermarket seats. So now I have to decide if it's worth it... <$igh>

[Mechie3]

My bimarco seats were decently priced and FIA homolgated. Buy directly from company on eBay. Seat brackets are not long enough for 818.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Bimarco-Futura-FIA-Homologation-racing-bucked-individualize-seat-momo-sparco-/181239340473

[wleehendrick]

Seat brackets are not long enough for 818.

Ditto with my brackets; I expect that will be an issue with pretty much any aftermarket seat in the 818. I'm planning on mounting them to 1/4" Al plates to extend to the frame rails. Craig did a little cleaner job by fab'ing up custom brackets.

[flynntuna]

You could use an aftermarket seat for those track days. Ya it would be a hassle switching seats for those track days but it would be safer. Since I'm pretty much in the same boat with this which seat to use debate the perspective of the community I find valuable.

[Xusia]

I have found some "race" seats that have tilt/recline/slide functionality similar to the WRX seats. Now to find out if I can use the OEM 3-point belt with them. If so, then I can limit use of the harness to when I need it, and use the 3-point belt for daily driving.

[Xusia]

So can someone explain to me how/where the leg belts of a 5/6 point harness are supposed to attach? I assumed there would be a hole in the seat, but none of the seats I found seem to have an obvious hole in the seat for this purpose. I called one reseller and they said that belt attaches to the floor below the front of the seat. How in the world is that better than the factory seat then??

Venting my frustrations here for a moment... The sanctioning bodies are really pissing me off. If it's a coupe, the OEM belts are FINE. But a convertible with a roll bar requires a harness?!? What really chaps my hide here is that they let motorcycles on those same tracks, which have neither roofs, roll bars, belts, nor harnesses of any kind. Motorcycles also go faster and are much more prone to crashing. Having partaken in more than one high side crash, I can attest that a motorcycle crash can be very violent and easily brake bones or cause serious injury. When you look at everything, it just seems soooo nonsensical. No matter how you slice it, this car will be safer than a motorcycle. And for me, that's good enough because it's an improvement. I'm not trying to be mini-van safe here!!! OK, venting done.

[Mechie3]

My seats have a hole for the sub strap holes in the seat right in between your thighs. The belts then attach to the side and back a little. Holes aren't always obvious as a split cushion may cover it. Usually they'll say 5 or 6 pt harness compatible.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

So can someone explain to me how/where the leg belts of a 5/6 point harness are supposed to attach? I assumed there would be a hole in the seat, but none of the seats I found seem to have an obvious hole in the seat for this purpose. I called one reseller and they said that belt attaches to the floor below the front of the seat. How in the world is that better than the factory seat then??

.

Here is a picture of my kirkie road race seat with the cover off. It has 5 holes for belts.
Bob25783

[Xusia]

Thanks Bob. I really don't want a fixed position seat - my problem, I know. I want adjust-ability, and I want to be able to get behind the seats easily (i.e. by folding it forward) since I plan to use that space for storage.

[RM1SepEx]

Using stock seats and stock FFR gas tank at 5'8" there isn't any room behind the seats...

[metalmaker12]

You don't need a harness bar, you can bolt them directly to the frame, and they will not work with the factory seats because there is no holes were you need them, but at this point get a nice pair of sparco adjustable tuner seats, there about 300 each and are much thinner and will give you more room. I tried to fit in the oem seats, that's a joke right.

[RM1SepEx]

As an old fart there is no way that I can drive with one of those thin, un adjustable seats. My plan is to attempt the build with the stock seats and see how it works. I think that FFR's new direction of a specific 818 tank that allows the driver's seat to go back further combined with sliders is the best bet, long term. Perhaps I'll make up my own or Boyds will do one up. The current tank's design with the stepped level, sender lower than the pump fitting area makes no sense. Since the seat ends up at an angle it can be thin and tall behind the driver and fat and tall behind the passenger with the passenger seat being fixed.

IMO the some of the $300 or so seats don't look well stitched, the upholstery puckers etc...

[FFR-ADV]

Hi Xusia,

Factory Five is currently developing a "Big/Tall" gas tank which was shown at SEMA in the Green 818S only in a right hand drive. The tank puts less gas tank behind the drivers seat and pushes the passenger seat ahead of the driver (I would approximate by 3 inches). The drivers seats shown were the Kirkey seats shown above from the 818R and challenge series. Kirkey also has some full containment seats which look interesting (Model 70). The drivers seat is almost touching the roll bar (as far back as it is going). having sat in the 818R that provides the room I am looking for. The passenger does not have pedals taking up room so they will have plenty of space. As a bonus this creates a small shelf behind the passenger's seat and the gas tank accepts the Subaru fuel pump and sensor. I am waiting for this solution before I put in my gas tank.

https://www.factoryfive.com/galleries/project-818/factory-five-wilwood-818s/

Cheers!

[Xusia]

Using stock seats and stock FFR gas tank at 5'8" there isn't any room behind the seats...

I won't be using the stock gas tank for sure, and I'm even sure I will put one in that location at all. There is a very good chance mine will go up front. :)

[Xusia]

Like Dan, I really want adjustability in my seats. And $300 a piece for seats is a bit much IMO. The NRG seats are like half that. I'm just waiting to hear back from Eric (Hansen). I want to be sure the ones I like have the hole for the 5/6 point belts. If they do, I'll begrudgingly go with those. I say begrudgingly, because I wish the stock seats were a realistic option.

[RM1SepEx]

Can anyone check these out?

6-RS-TR-BK-NRG

reclining, black fabric $300 pair, adj. sliders, incl. shipping

[Racebrewer]

Can anyone check these out?

6-RS-TR-BK-NRG

reclining, black fabric $300 pair, adj. sliders, incl. shipping

Got a better link? Mea culpa ---- I can't find them........

Thanks,
John

[RM1SepEx]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-NRG-Black-Cloth-Red-Stitching-Reclining-Racing-Seats-Adjustable-Sliders-/291070470790?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item43c526ea86&vxp=mtr

https://www.getnrg.com/products/seats/type-r-style-seats/feed

[Xusia]

Dan, thanks. That was really nice. I'm a bit of a picky *******, and I really want seats without the red stitching. So badly, I'd consider the (gasp!) leather ones just because they don't have red stitching. I'm still looking, and haven't decided one way or the other. I'm open to anyone's suggestions...

[RM1SepEx]

The NRG vinyl ones have puckered stitched areas... don't look very well made... I haven't seen leather for less than 6-700 per seat anywhere

[Canadian818]

The quality of my NRG buckets was top notch.

[Xusia]

The quality of my NRG buckets was top notch.

Which model do you have, and do they have the slot in the seat for the leg belt on a 5/6 point harness?

[RM1SepEx]

check out the edge seams from another thread (Aloha) You can see the puckering of the edges where the panels come together. I've found this to be very common on the low cost vinyl seats from almost every vendor... Cloth examples are better but I also don't like contrasting stitching

25850

[Sgt.Gator]

Xusia, what HPDE events that you are looking at require 5-6 point belts? Maybe Porsche club does, but not Hooked On Driving, which has more HPDE events in our area than any other organization. Neither does NASA. Roll bars on convertibles yes, but not racing harnesses.

Once you stick with OEM 3 point setup, there's lots of options for adjustable seats. When you require 5-6 pt harness, adjustable seats are next to non-existent. However finding a good adjustable seat for less than $300 each is also tough, you get what you pay for!

And lots of adjustable seats work with 4pt harnesses, my favorite 4pt is the Schroth because they are DOT approved and almost as easy to put on as a OEM 3pt. https://www.schrothracing.com/tuning

If you want to do Time Attack/Trials, or wheel to wheel racing, then seats/belts are a different matter.

[Canadian818]

Which model do you have, and do they have the slot in the seat for the leg belt on a 5/6 point harness?

RSC-300 pics in my build thread. Should have pics in the car in a few days.

[Xusia]

I have decided to get aftermarket seats. I think I can sell my OEM seats for pretty close to what new seats (inexpensive ones, like the NRGs) would cost. I'm doing this primarily because I'd really need to hack up the stock seats to get them low enough for me, and I have a problem doing that - especially when new seats can be had for around the same price I can sell my existing seats for. Aftermarket seats also have a higher chance of being compatible with the a 5/6 point harness. Oh, and they are lighter (ancillary benefit; certainly NOT a priority).

[ehansen007]

Hey Brian,

I do believe that all the NRG seats allow for a harness but the ones we were looking, the RSC-200 and 101 at may not support the submarine belt. I'll find out. But I do believe the RSC-400 does. Call me for pricing on those. This was a seat designed to be the best of all worlds with a low seating position, a real bucket, and recline-ability. It's a roller though instead of a lever. I know some are wary of these seats and quality however Jegs sells them and I consider them a reputable family owned business. I've been super happy with all my NRG stuff.

25974

[Xusia]

My impression of NRG is positive, and I would have no problem with their seats... If it weren't for the red stitching. They aren't "out" but I am looking at other options as well. I would appreciate knowing if those other styles/models support the submarine belt(s).

[tmoretta]

So you found that you didn't need to add a harness bar (above the cross member)?

[Canadian818]

My impression of NRG is positive, and I would have no problem with their seats... If it weren't for the red stitching. They aren't "out" but I am looking at other options as well. I would appreciate knowing if those other styles/models support the submarine belt(s).

I forgot to mention, mine has the sub slot. Check with aloha, he has a NRG recliner.

[Xusia]

I'm not planning on a harness. Rather allowing for one later if I decide to later (I'll either find events that are OK with the 3-point, or just not go). My decision to use aftermarket seats is primarily driven by my desire/need for a lower seating position. As I said, I don't want to hack up the stock seats when I can get aftermarket seats for around what I can sell stock seats for.

[K3LAG]

My impression of NRG is positive, and I would have no problem with their seats... If it weren't for the red stitching.

I agree about the red stitching. All the trim, inside and out, on my car is orange and the red stitching would really clash. If these came with black stitching I would probably buy a set. I wonder if the stitching could be effectively dyed.

Larry

[Xusia]

TOTALLY. If they offered black stitching, i'd have ALREADY bought a pair!

[mekohler]

I am 6' 3" and had to get the Boyd tank. I went with the fixed bucket NRG seats. I did put them on a recline by dropping the back all the way and will mount to the car as low as possible. This allows my head to clear the roll bar. I am hoping to use the OEM belts on the road, but will need 5 or 6 point belts for track days. I am still confused on where to anchor the belts either oem or 5/6 point, and will not have that sorted out until I figure out final placement of the seats. I am happy with the seats and for the money they are nice.

[Canadian818]

TOTALLY. If they offered black stitching, i'd have ALREADY bought a pair!

Why not just dye the threads, or take a sharpie to them?

[Xusia]

Because that seems like a lot of dreary work. Also because they SHOULD offer black stitching. Not doing so is stupid IMO. Red doesn't go with every interior...

[K3LAG]

Why not just dye the threads, or take a sharpie to them?

Because I want to have confidence that it will look good before I invest in the seats. If someone wants to volunteer to buy a set and experiment to find the most effective way to dye/sharpie the stitching and demonstrate that it looks good and will last, then I would consider it. I'm not going to invest in seats hoping that I can make them look good. I would invest in more expensive seats before I would take that chance.

[tmoretta]

NRG offers a "bucket" non adjustable seat that is all black.

[Xusia]

Right, but since I plan to use the space behind the seat for storage and what-not, and because I'd like to have adjustability for comfort and for other drivers, I need adjustable seats.

[wleehendrick]

NRG offers a "bucket" non adjustable seat that is all black.

That's what I got from Erik, and I like them. I, too, angled them back with the sidemounts like mekohler.

I was originally thinking like Xusia (also wanting retractable belts and reclining seats), but decided to go with the fixed back seats and harnesses only (I gave away my donor's belts). The position is set-up for me, so I don't see the need to change seat location frequently. Being in San Diego, this will be closer to a year-round daily car than most, but I don't think I'll mind clicking in to the harnesses every time... it gives the fluids a little time to circulate before rolling, and still less involved than gearing up for a bike.

[wleehendrick]

Right, but since I plan to use the space behind the seat for storage and what-not, and because I'd like to have adjustability for comfort and for other drivers, I need adjustable seats.

If you're anywhere near 6' there won't be much room. I have my seats angled back to what's comfortable to me, and even with Boyd tank, there's just a small amount of space. Once my seat position is finalized, I plan to find a slim subwoofer which will fit in the small volume behind my butt. Since I won't need to access this frequently, recliners don't add much value to my build.

[Xusia]

I'm just over 6' tall, but I'm putting the gas tank elsewhere. I know there won't be a ton of room, but space for a small sub behind the driver's seat (and maybe a bit more) and a backpack behind the passenger seat, would mean a lot. So I don't need a lot of space, just accessible space.

[wleehendrick]

I'm just over 6' tall, but I'm putting the gas tank elsewhere. I know there won't be a ton of room, but space for a small sub behind the driver's seat (and maybe a bit more) and a backpack behind the passenger seat, would mean a lot. So I don't need a lot of space, just accessible space.

Gotcha... different priorities than me. I'm hoping to have a small cubby or two in the cabin for sunglasses, hat, etc... but for anything as large as a backpack, it's going on the passenger seat (if unoccupied) or in the truck (it's silly to have a hinged rear deck and not box in a storage compartment).

[tmoretta]

Could a pouch be cut into the driver's side door card to store glasses, gloves etc? Also, will there be room anywhere to mount the donut spare and jack?

[flynntuna]

Look at Erik Treves thread for a picture of the door panel, the can be easily modded to a storage compartment.
As for a spare, most on the forum have said a while ago that they will use flat fix and a portable compressor.

[Oppenheimer]

Xusia, what about using the fixed seat, but mounting so the whole seat can flip forward for storage access? I've seen that done on I think old Jeep CJ's. Hinge at the front, latch at the back with a release.

You could probably retrofit such a latch from a car that used such a configuration, and adapt it for the low mounting you need.

Doesn't give adjustability for changing positions for log drives or for other drivers though.

[Xusia]

That's not a bad idea. In thinking about it though, that only solves the behind-the-seat access problem. It doesn't allow for comfort adjustment.

[ehansen007]

It actually works really well. I did it in the hot rod. :-)

[flynntuna]

I wonder if the frame bracing in front of the seat will be in the way ?

[RM1SepEx]

I wonder if the frame bracing in front of the seat will be in the way ?

15 minutes some POR15 on the cut, spray some gloss black and that tube is gone! I removed it on my driver's side to allow my seat to slide forward 3 inches for my petite wife of 30 years... :rolleyes:

[Xusia]

So I pulled the trigger on some seats just now. I found a deal I couldn't pass up: NRG seats (oddly, not offered on their website or through any other dealers I talked to) similar to the RSC-204, but in a carbon look. I know this could get hot, but I really like the look and there are numerous options to deal with hot seats.

The deal included sliders, 3" 6-point harnesses, and free shipping. All for less than $400!

Now to sell my stock seats...

[nkw8181]

Nice! Gonna look into those.

[07FIREBLADE]

Where was I for this deal.

[Xusia]

This was not a forum deal. I was doing research (as I often do when faced with a challenge), and came across them. It was exactly what I needed (except for the seats not being cloth, but at least they didn't have red stitching!), for what I thought was a better price than I'd seen anywhere else, so I jumped on it. I won't post the details beyond what I've already said, but anyone who is interested in more details can PM me.