Carbon Fiber Hoods: Interest Check

[Mechie3]

One benefit of living in Indy is a large network of racing industries minutes from my house. I toured a composites shop today and will be taking my hood there tomorrow to have them quote a mold and hoods in both full carbon and carbon with fiberglass underlayers (mostly for looks, same way FFR CF pieces are). The shop makes parts using prepreg carbon and a large autoclave. They made the bodies for the daytona corvettes and showed me a hood for a Grand Am Viper that was absolutely crazy. I'll update this tomorrow after I get a quote from the shop. Wanted to gauge interest and see how many people would be interested in such an item.

Update: I was quoted tooling for the body parts separately and a discounted price for all 3, so that's how I have it listed.

Parts are autoclaved Carbon/Glass/Glass/Carbon. The glass is NOT chop strand. It is prepreg woven mat that costs almost as much as carbon.

The shop recommended the C/G/G/C as what a lot of race teams use. Straight carbon does't flex and will crack while the mix is flexible enough to be handled. It also gives you a carbon layer on the inside and outside that is stronger than the FFR parts while being slightly lighter and thinner.




5 Buyers:
Hood: $1600
Engine Cover (humps): $1995
Trunk: $540*
All 3: $3890 (saves $245)

10 Buyers:
Hood: $1365
Engine Cover (humps): $1680
Trunk: $450*
All 3: $3360 (saves $135)





Difference in cost is difference in amortizing tooling simply because I'm not willing to invest $5k in tooling plus another $3k in part cost simply to have one set of personal parts. The numbers above still represent some risk to me, but you have to take some in life ;)

If anyone is interested in straight 4 layer carbon parts they were quoted ~$200 more for the hood and cover and $50 more for the trunk.

*Trunk price would need to be adjusted by cost of steel bracket bonded to trunk.

Prices don't include shipping.

[rori]

I'd be more interested in the rear decklid with carbon humps!

[Mechie3]

If enough people want it to make it cost effective, it's be very cool to have the entire center of the car be carbon: Hood, humps, and trunk. Basically, take the 818R and make the white parts all CF.

[FFRSpec72]

I actually have to get the car built and running first and then see if I have any $$$ left over

[Xusia]

I would be interested in the entire center of the car being carbon fiber.

[FuelXC]

I think doors would be great if nothing else to help with sag. Iirc and correct me if I was misinformed, but carbon doesn't sag nearly as bad as fiberglass

[Mike N]

Be ready for some BIG sticker shock. Hand laid up CF parts are expensive, autoclaved, pre-preg parts are a LOT more expensive. I've worked with composites for 30 years and for a composites manufacturer for the past 15 years and I can't justify the $$$ for CF parts like that even with direct access to those resources :rolleyes:

[Tony Zullo]

hi guys Tony@ffr we hand laid up the green Wilwood car and it was a ton of work and hours so the cost will be huge,but super light!!

[michael everson]

I would rather see someone make molds for inner liners for the hood, trunk and rear engine cover. It would give them so much more strength and a place to attach hinges etc.
Mike

[Mechie3]

I got the quote this morning. Its not too bad. Need to do Some math to amortize tooling costs.

[Niburu]

carbon fiber HARDTOP.......just sayin

I'd pay up $3k for one

[Canadian818]

carbon fiber HARDTOP.......just sayin

I'd pay up $3k for one

Yep! Also interested in the hood with different vents, perhaps big louvers.

[Xusia]

carbon fiber HARDTOP.......just sayin

I'd pay up $3k for one

OMG, no DOUBT!!! FTW!!

[Santiago]

I might be interested in the humps when the time comes.

-j

[JAubin]

carbon fiber HARDTOP.......just sayin

I'd pay up $3k for one
X3

maybe a roof scoop to give an alternate intake for the IC, either way that would be sick!

[Niburu]

X3

maybe a roof scoop to give an alternate intake for the IC, either way that would be sick!

that'd be a cool option
I was planning on running a NA motor, either a Renesis or 20B

[07FIREBLADE]

Depending on prices, im in. Would love a hardtop, like the spoon for the s2k or just a normal hardtop doesn't have to be cf, I can always dream

[Mechie3]

Posted prices above. Prices listed are pretty much my cost accounting for parts and tooling.

A hardtop would have to be designed before I can quote it. ;)

[JAubin]

I wonder what VMan would need to do to complete this design? http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album.php?albumid=541&attachmentid=16872

[Mechie3]

He would need models of the existing components, CAD software to communicate the design to a mfg company(don't think he uses CAD), and a mechanical design for how it will integrate to the body and windshield frame.

[Canadian818]

He would need models of the existing components, CAD software to communicate the design to a mfg company(don't think he uses CAD), and a mechanical design for how it will integrate to the body and windshield frame.

Sooooo, a few lunch breaks? :p

[Mechie3]

Sooooo, a few lunch breaks? :p

And several thousand dollars if he doesn't have 3D laser scanners. Doubt FFR will freely give out CAD models of the body.

[Goldwing]

I would rather see someone make molds for inner liners for the hood, trunk and rear engine cover. It would give them so much more strength and a place to attach hinges etc.
Mike

This much would be doable at home for reasonable cost. I'd wait until you get the pieces on the car for a bit to ensure they are back into their intended shape before reinforcing it, but grabbing a roll of 2" wide 6-10 oz fiberglass cloth and laying out a strip from any desired mounting point down the underneath (or other body part) of the hood then wetting it out with a thin epoxy like "system 3" or "west systems" would go a long way to stiffen up the hood. Just pour the epoxy on the cloth in a line, spread it out, wait for it to soak in and turn clear, then squeegee out any excess. Applying, say, 4 layers of that would be about right. For a lot of strength use a thin strip of wood first that is narrower than the glass (so the fiberglass and epoxy completely seals it) then put the cloth layers above. Another good reason to wait until installed is so that you know where the extra thickness (won't be much) wont interfere with anything. At the hinge mounting points, put down a bunch of layers staggering the length along the base strips.

[Goldwing]

Or simply epoxy and (fiberglass over the flat portion) a desired bracket onto the hood on top of those base strips.25743

A beefier version of that would provide mounting points for bolting a bracket on.

[RM1SepEx]

Craig, those parts are big, shipping and packaging will be a bear!

[JAubin]

He would need models of the existing components, CAD software to communicate the design to a mfg company(don't think he uses CAD), and a mechanical design for how it will integrate to the body and windshield frame.

Ahhh bad assumption on my part that he was modeling the parts. As an approved vendor, I wonder if FFR be open to sharing the key components exported in a step file? I'd be into working on the basic shape and attachment hardware/scheme but I don't have my kit yet, and getting some basic dimensions, and being able to try stuff is pretty clutch in working on a concept IMHO. (Says the ME who works remotely...hah)

[Mike N]

Prices are much better than I thought they would be. If they are truly autoclaved parts that's a great deal.

[WIS89]

I have to believe that some kind of CF hardtop would be very popular!

The lighter weight would also make the installation/removal a tad easier. It could also add some nice styling options.

Thanks for looking into this Mechie3. I bet several parts will prove to be popular!

Regards,

Steve

[Mechie3]

Prices are much better than I thought they would be. If they are truly autoclaved parts that's a great deal.

Indeed! I was pleased myself. Amortizing tooling costs is the biggest factor. I saw their prepreg and autoclave myself. He said they dont do wet layup at all. Its too messy, quality isnt the same, and they dont want to get into it. They supply an estimated 80% of all CF sprint car bodies.

[Mechie3]

Craig, those parts are big, shipping and packaging will be a bear!

Unfortunately. For the spring car bodies he sells they average around $200 to ship the big pieces.

[Evan78]

Are estimated weights available? (original parts vs CF)

[Mechie3]

The carbon/glass/glass/carbon hood would only save between 1-2 lbs.

[Mechie3]

As I was scraping salt of my WRX and putting in a new radiator I glanced over at my 818 that has sat still for a week+ and thought "hmm, the dash would look cool in carbon". Would anyone be interested in having that quoted? I'd imagine the cost would be similar to the trunk, with tooling costs maybe being slightly higher.

[DruOdil]

Mechie3, you are so creative and follow it up with results. A rare combination in life. I would be interested but think a list of 20 would even be a better price. What do you think about FFR working with you/CF co.? I know you said they don't use CAD but I am sure both companies could profit and everyone wins. I don't mean to put anything else on your plate but maybe ask what FFR is willing to do. Please keep doing what your doing.
Thank you, Dru

[Mechie3]

Thanks for the kind comments Dru. I didn't always use to follow through, or have the means to (lack of machine access, etc). There's a song by Boxcar Racer with a line that goes "we'll regret all the things we thought of but didn't ever do". That kind of struck me one year and I've tried not to regret not doing things because I wasn't motivated enough.

The company I talked with does use CAD. My CAD comment was about VMAN who has done some exellent renders of a targa version. He doesn't have CAD models (that I know of) that could be emailed for a quote.

A list of 20 would be great. Cost for hoods would drop to $1200. I don't know if FFR would want to get involved simply from the fact that at the prices I listed, there's no money in it for anyone but the CF company. I make a little money on my machined parts, but for this just wanted to offer an opportunity to the community. It's a bit self serving as I'd be able to get the CF parts too without needing to foot the entire $5k tooling bill myself. At the same time, FFR could potentially find a pricepoint where they don't sell these as future add ons, but replacements (ie, you never get fiberglass). That way, they could still price it so it's attractive but not spend money on fiberglass parts to start with.

I'll shoot an email off to Joe tomorrow along with a few other questions.

[Mechie3]

Dropped parts off at another shop. They want a full week to quote the molds/parts. :confused: We'll see what they say.

[305mouse]

My build is still years off but I would be in for a dash Craig. Not being realistic I would get the whole car in cf, but you know fiber makes you faster :)

[FFR-ADV]

He would need models of the existing components, CAD software to communicate the design to a mfg company(don't think he uses CAD), and a mechanical design for how it will integrate to the body and windshield frame.

Hi Mechie,

I think the CF option is great! Much better spent there than in paint!

I think that a CF hardtop could replace the entire rear deck with a window (lexan?) to view/access our nice motors and a vertical window to keep engine heat and fumes out of the cabin. The other option for the builder is to create a mold the old way, by sculpting a mold which is fitted to a production 818. We could kick some $$ to Vman7 to provide more lines/ views from which the mold maker could create the model. It might be close to a wash in weight and will likely improve the aerodynamics which will help top speed. It also means many of those of us who are Northern owners could use our 818S more of the year and all would be less nervous about rain.

25774

I included this picture cause it just makes me smile. The thought of this hardtop in CF with the rest finished like the green CF SEMA 818S makes me grin ear to ear!

Thank you for working on the CF project!

[Doowop]

thanks for working on this. Might be interested in some panels down the road.

[Greg G]

"It also means many of those of us who are Northern owners could use our 818S more of the year and all would be less nervous about rain."

AMEN!

[C.Plavan]

I think it would be hard to make the humps for the 818R- It is such a hack job from FFR when they cut the humps for the R rollcage. If it was carbon and a nice straight, easy to install cut on the CF I would be all over it.

[Xusia]

I was under the impression we were talking about that entire piece.

[Mechie3]

Yes, it was the entire piece. I won't be having these made though. An FFR CS rep informed me that they were told it would be illegal for the carbon mfg to mass produce these. I don't believe that's quite correct as I couldn't find an actual design patent (which would be required to make it illegal) but it's clear that FFR doesn't want others replicating their bodies. Even if they did have a design patent, you could alter the design slightly to circumvent it. That's not my intent though. I like FFR and have no reason to make life difficult for them. My thinking was that since they don't sell kits without panels and have no plans to make CF parts for now, it's not taking any sales from them. Either way, there wasn't really enough interest to make this happen without me investing quite a few thousand on tooling that likely wouldn't be made up later.

[Xusia]

:(
.

[07FIREBLADE]

I guess I can just stick with my wrap.... :(

[Canadian818]

No design patent on a hardtop! :)

[DruOdil]

Craig, you are still the man in my book. Your ideas are great and I am still interested with anything you come up with. I want my car to be a "modern hot rod". Thats why I am doing an 818 because it's different. Hang in there brother you are not alone.
Thank you, Dru

[C.Plavan]

If Porsche is not going after all the CF/Fiberglass body piece manufactures- You have nothing to worry about. Porsche goes after everyone....lol
Make mounts in the CF or actual mounting holes- Problem solved if there was even a problem.

[Mechie3]

I don't believe there is anything to worry about legally. It's more a matter of wanting to be amicable to FFR and respect their (implied) wishes.

[longislandwrx]

An FFR CS rep informed me that they were told it would be illegal for the carbon mfg to mass produce these. I don't believe that's quite correct as I couldn't find an actual design patent (which would be required to make it illegal) but it's clear that FFR doesn't want others replicating their bodies.

HAHAAHHAHAHA this coming from the company that pretty much built their business "copying" someone else's body design?

You think of all people they would whole heartedly support you.

[Xusia]

OR... You would think they would simply offer all body panels in CF to begin with. They have both the molds and CAD designs, so it would be easy...

[07FIREBLADE]

It's to time consuming and labor intensive for them to do it all in cf. was a response I remember hearing about the green SEMA car.

[Mechie3]

Yes, that is what they said. They did a hand wet layup though. Not sure if they did it in house or they farm this stuff out. The shop I took it too didn't even blink at it. Said probably 2-3 hours labor per piece.

[RM1SepEx]

they laid them up by hand according to Tony Z

[Xusia]

Right, so if FFR isn't going to offer them, I don't understand why they have a problem with someone else doing so. I mean if they don't want to or won't offer it, I would think they would want to support the aftermarket for their customers. As it stands right now, they are apparently in effect telling their customers "You can't have a carbon fiber body."

[Mechie3]

You can have a one off made, there is no problem with that. The issue is mass producing parts. Even though I wouldn't have made money on them, the CF manufacturer would have. Essentially they're making money off of FFR's work.

[Xusia]

Perhaps. But that happens all the time in any number of industries/sectors. And it this case, not at the expense of FFR's profit. And let's not forget the goodwill that comes with high customer satisfaction...

[DruOdil]

OK, so how is a "Boyd" fuel tank any different then? I don't mean to single Boyd out. He is just a good example of an upgrade part that FFR has being using for a long time. Craig, if your CF guy became a part of the FFR team and paid the fees or what ever is required of the other companies, is that their problem?

[Xusia]

This has nothing to do with you Craig. I think you are doing the right thing if FFR doesn't want you to proceed. It's FFR's stance on this that is perplexing. It just makes no sense. Another example of why:

I have Weathertech floor mats in my truck. They made those by taking an example unit and creating a mold. As far as I know, Dodge isn't upset with them for doing so.

[RM1SepEx]

Just make them a bit different... no vent hole or different shaped hole etc...

[Mechie3]

Perhaps. But that happens all the time in any number of industries/sectors. And it this case, not at the expense of FFR's profit. And let's not forget the goodwill that comes with high customer satisfaction...

It does. Especially if there aren't patents protecting the design. The difference is usually those companies don't have relationships with the company they're knocking off. They don't care if they offend the original company.



OK, so how is a "Boyd" fuel tank any different then? I don't mean to single Boyd out. He is just a good example of an upgrade part that FFR has being using for a long time. Craig, if your CF guy became a part of the FFR team and paid the fees or what ever is required of the other companies, is that their problem?

The Boyd tank is a different design. It's not a 1:1 copy. The CF guy wouldn't need to become a vendor, as I'm a vendor selling (would be, not am) his stuff. Same with the machined parts or if someone is a distributor. That isn't the issue.


This has nothing to do with you Craig. I think you are doing the right thing if FFR doesn't want you to proceed. It's FFR's stance on this that is perplexing. It just makes no sense. Another example of why:

I have Weathertech floor mats in my truck. They made those by taking an example unit and creating a mold. As far as I know, Dodge isn't upset with them for doing so.

I'm guessing it is the whole shelby lawsuit that put this taste in their mouths to begin with and so now they just try to steer clear of those sorts of things.

Weathertech actually scans the cars themselves and then creates their own model off of that. It's not a 1:1 copy. It brings up an interesting not that if you took the hood, and changed it, say a single larger vent like the Corvette C6R, it would now be my own design and not a 1:1. I don't have plans to do that though.


In the end, it comes down to what do I value more: CF pieces or a good standing and relationship with FFR. I'd choose FFR. :)

[indiana818]

i love the roof idea!!!!!! i want one even if i have to lay it up in fg.

[DruOdil]

I can only hope that the person who said no to the CF is not representing FFR. it's just him. FFR should understand that when people see a car built with CF it will attract more buyers. The better we build them, the more they sale. I still want CF. FFR can you help us????

[Xusia]

Craig, I would choose FFR too, and that's what I was trying to say.

As for the Weathertech example, I don't see the difference between scanning the interior of an OEM vehicle, or scanning the hood of an 818. Both are basing a new part on some aspect of a "production" sample.

[Mechie3]

Weathertech is a unique design. While the bottom follows the contours of the car, it isn't a 100% replica of an OEM mat.

The hood would be a 100% replica.

[wleehendrick]

Weathertech is a unique design. While the bottom follows the contours of the car, it isn't a 100% replica of an OEM mat.

The hood would be a 100% replica.

Solution: change the shape of the vents slightly, make it an upgraded part. FFR seems supportive of the cottage industry of vendors around their product, and I see not reason why this would be any different than a Boyd tank, Mike's cooling pipes, etc...

[Mechie3]

It's certainly an option. For that I would need to either modify my existing hood for them to make a mold or have the hood 3D scanned so I can make a model of a new vent. Both will take more time than I have now.

[RM1SepEx]

I can understand that approach! I wanted to build as designed and then modify over time... Naturally that could change at any time, for instance I may drag my wiring out of the tunnel and relocate the shifter to the floor vs just shortening the lever... I'm not sure what I want to do with the parking brake lever as I'm not real happy with the position either... since the entire tunnel is non stressed why not cut out the whole thing and do it over with the shifter on the floor?

[Turboguy]

Why not just ask FFR to make them. They already have the tooling.

[RM1SepEx]

Two thoughts:
They are not setup to do the process and keep the cost down
They have their hands full providing the fiberglass pieces

???

[Mechie3]

Why not just ask FFR to make them. They already have the tooling.


Two thoughts:
They are not setup to do the process and keep the cost down
They have their hands full providing the fiberglass pieces

???

Probably these. I don't know how many sets of molds they have or the difference between an autoclave and wet layup molds if any. You also wouldn't get it for the prices I posted above. Those prices was the cost of the hood + 5% + amortized tooling cost (evenly divided by 5 or 10 depending on quantity). It's a rather terrible business model to only make 5% on something. In this case, I wanted a set, figured others would too and we could all split the cost of tooling. It wasn't an effort to make any money off of it, but simply provide an opportunity. most businesses aren't in the business of providing things at cost.

For $1k/pc you might have 5 buyers. Jump it to $2k and suddenly you might have none. It makes more sense for FFR to focus on improving the current chassis/kit than to do things like CF that, in the short term, will only distract them.

[Xusia]

Agreed. <sigh>

[Scargo]

I am retired. My kit is around the corner... All this talk makes me itch to be involved. I was in the prototyping biz. Not cars, but I did some custom stuff from time-to-time.
I modded my cheap FRP front facia myself after I made forms for the air inlets:
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25925&stc=1

Surely FFR is looking at an 818 coupe? Designs in CAD can quickly be made into a form for prepreg. This might be an opportunity for them and you.
Another place to talk to would be Prototype Concepts (http://www.prototypeconcepts.com/) AKA Kaminari (http://www.kaminari.com/node/831). (http://www.kaminari.com/store) They are in the Reno, NV area. Kaminari is the brand of my CF hood. They make many parts for cars and for specialty car companies.http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=25926&d=1391632038

[Mechie3]

No one has CAD designs for a hardtop. Only FFR has CAD for the complete car.

[Turboguy]

Two thoughts:
They are not setup to do the process and keep the cost down
They have their hands full providing the fiberglass pieces



Instead of wasting time speculating, perhaps someone should -you know- actually call and ask them.


I highly doubt they debut a car at SEMA covered in carbon fiber body panels, and then decide to NOT offer those pieces to the public. It would be a ridiculously stupid move from a marketing perspective

[RM1SepEx]

hi guys Tony@ffr we hand laid up the green Wilwood car and it was a ton of work and hours so the cost will be huge,but super light!!

I think this answers the above questions and comments. Tony's response from 1/29/14

FFR's pricing would be huge due to their capabilities and the labor involved

[Mechie3]

Instead of wasting time speculating, perhaps someone should -you know- actually call and ask them.


I highly doubt they debut a car at SEMA covered in carbon fiber body panels, and then decide to NOT offer those pieces to the public. It would be a ridiculously stupid move from a marketing perspective

No speculation at all. I was specifically told by FFR in an email on 1-30-14 that "as of now we're not planning on venturing into the carbon body option." I'm pretty sure I've stated that previously, though just not a direct quote. There was some other stuff in the email mentioning other potential priorities.

The only speculation is as to the exact reasoning, which can be assumed (as Dan mentioned) is due to cost and labor and higher priorities. It's not that stupid from a marketing stanpoint. Build a one off car, get lots of attention, and increase sales. I don' think there is realistically a large market for carbon bodies. The cost of a hood, cover, and trunk would sell for almost the price of the kit. Certainly a niche market. Better to focus limited resources elsewhere.

[carbon fiber]

the price of development vs. demand for the part/cost of the part, is why ffr isn't interested. the kit only cost $10 grand, and the total production numbers will be low, so selling high priced cf parts for it wouldn't be good business. NOT that it wouldn't be cool, or that people wouldn't buy it, but how many people vs. cost to produce, etc. I'm making some cf stuff for the gtm. if it weren't for the fact that I was making these molds for myself I wouldn't plan to sell them because there's no money to be made making parts for low production vehicles. the cf body ffr did was to draw attention to the 818, which it did. if you look at the actual cf work, it was pretty bad. if I did have a cf body like that I'd paint it. the weave was totally distorted, probably from the hand layup vs. prepeg. (sorry, just being honest) on the other hand, if someone wants to make parts that fit the 818 that are different from ffrs shapes, then it shouldn't be a problem, as long as there are enough buyers.

[Scargo]

What I'm suggesting is that without too much outlay an enterprising person could take an existing removable hardtop and convert that into a 3D object using photogrammetry and software like Photomodeler without having to have it scanned. Much like Vman7 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/member.php?2184-Vman7) did with his Photoshopped Elise, Ferrari, Porsche or ? hardtop, find a top shape you like and using multiple images convert it and recreate it in 3D CAD. If you can do it great, or have someone do it, and then it is ready for someone like the guys in Indy or Prototype Concepts to take over.
How about this from Autokonexion (http://shop.autokonexion.com/main.sc) (for Miatas=$2,200)?http://shop.autokonexion.com/images/iphonepic%20562.jpg

[Mechie3]

I'm making some cf stuff for the gtm. if it weren't for the fact that I was making these molds for myself I wouldn't plan to sell them because there's no money to be made making parts for low production vehicles.

The main reason I was going to try and sell a few. I wanted some for myself.


What I'm suggesting is that without too much outlay an enterprising person could take an existing removable hardtop and convert that into a 3D object using photogrammetry and software like Photomodeler without having to have it scanned. Much like Vman7 (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/member.php?2184-Vman7) did with his Photoshopped Elise, Ferrari, Porsche or ? hardtop, find a top shape you like and using multiple images convert it and recreate it in 3D CAD.

I think you under estimate the amount of work required to make a hardtop that is worth making. It has to fit with the 818 aesthetically, seal around the edges, the body has to still look good without the top in place (ie, no one wants a mounting strip exposed on the body), it needs to match the windshield, it needs to attached to the windshield, and what good is a hardtop with no windows?

This thread started as "who wants CF hoods" and quickly became "yes, I'll take a CF hardtop". I have no money into this, just a couple hours of time. Imagine if you spent weeks/months and $15k+ making a hardtop, start a thread, and it quickly turns into a "I'd buy this.....if it had roll up windows. Call me when you have roll up windows". Roll up windows means many more months, many more thousands, and you might not sell any when the final cost is $8k.

[Scargo]

Sorry to get off-topic and rain on your parade. Class-wise, I think I need the heavy hood/heavy front parts.

[Mechie3]

Sorry to get off-topic and rain on your parade. Class-wise, I think I need the heavy hood/heavy front parts.

Lol, I didn't take it that way. Just commenting on how if you offered just a hardtop without roll up windows you'd lose quite a bit of the target market and rollup windows requires a lot of work. Not that I wouldn't want a hardtop and rollup windows myself for early spring/late fall driveability.

People say they want a hardtop, but what they probably mean is "I want a weather tight coupe".

[flynntuna]

Lol, I didn't take it that way. Just commenting on how if you offered just a hardtop without roll up windows you'd lose quite a bit of the target market and rollup windows requires a lot of work. Not that I wouldn't want a hardtop and rollup windows myself for early spring/late fall driveability.

People say they want a hardtop, but what they probably mean is "I want a weather tight coupe".


I think your right. When Dave first announced the 818 and the "swatch watch" approach to this project, what two + years now, this forum has been impatiently waiting for the hard top, coupe, T-top, you name it top. (I'm probably the worst offender) My two cents FWIW is to look to the 33 for the timeline and/or direction that the 818 will take. The hard top and coupe will come, say 5-10 years.

I'll be ordering my own 818 before April (finally) and if the hard top isn't available buy 2015 when it's delivered, I'll attempt to make my own using the engine cover as as the starting point. I'm still mulling over what I actually want vs what I can actually build. If I build my own, windows won't be be included.

[wleehendrick]

and rollup windows requires a lot of work. Not that I wouldn't want a hardtop and rollup windows myself for early spring/late fall.

Just to throw it out there... for an easier weather tight seal, what about fixed side window with a small slider? Far easier to design an not out of place (lots of classic roadsters, and original viper had these, right?)

[flynntuna]

That could be an option, especially if they were combined with a Gullwing T-top. Around here that would make AC mandatory.

[Turboguy]

I think this answers the above questions and comments. Tony's response from 1/29/14

FFR's pricing would be huge due to their capabilities and the labor involved


You don't think the $1600 for a hood or $2000 for a rear cover that the first post in this thread bantered about would be quantified as "huge"? You're talking 5-10x the price of the fiberglass parts they're replacing. Perhaps if FFR presented a dollar amount they would be willing to manufacture the parts for, they could better gauge what the interest would be. I understand they may have higher priorities, and if so perhaps they should have focused on highlighting them at SEMA 2013.


I'll say it again - showcasing a car with an all-carbon body and not following it up in production (especially when you win an award for it) is a major marketing faux-pax. Displaying a product which is NOT available, or representative of what you offer, is always a bad way to proceed. And in the automotive aftermarket, fiberglass does NOT equal carbon fiber.



They used to offer Carbon dashes and doors for the MK 3 roadsters, and a complete carbon body for either the MK 1 or MK 2 roadster before that, so we aren't talking new territory.

If the upcharge was around $7,500 I'd opt for the entire 818 body in Carbon myself.

[Scargo]

Just to be a devil's advocate (or a pr**k), why not wrap the car in vinyl? How much weight would you save with real CF? How many $$/lb would that be versus what you could do with the weight of wheels or suspension that would make it drive better/faster? Even better and lighter seats would be cheap in comparison.
There's a number of benefits from reducing the body shell weight and a good deal of that body weight is up high (relatively speaking) but I look at the engine that begs to have power unleashed with nothing more than the twist of a knob (somewhat metaphorically speaking).

[Mechie3]

I wanted it mostly for looks, weight was a side benefit. With the splitter, side skirts, diffuser, and wing being carbon I thought it'd make a nice theme. Plus, subtract whatever cost you save by not painting those panels to get your effective cost. The vinyls today look pretty good but I wanted a more cohesive design if possible.

[Turboguy]

You make a good point in posing your question Scargo.


My answer won't sound anywhere near as well reasoned or thought provoking. Many laminate floors look as good as hardwood - but they are not Hardwood.


I want Carbon because it's Carbon. For the look of it. For the feel of it. For the cachet. It's hard to put an actual finger on why I want it - I just do.

[Xusia]

^Like girls who want real diamonds, right?!? LOL

[DruOdil]

I guess, there both carbon

[Xusia]

Touche. I was referring more to the thought that it's not necessarily rational, but desirable nonetheless!

[Scargo]

I want Carbon because it's Carbon. For the look of it. For the feel of it. For the cachet. It's hard to put an actual finger on why I want it - I just do.I understand. Just look at my last post (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?12802-Lighter-race-oriented-Suspension-Parts-Primarily-Uprights&p=138704&viewfull=1#post138704)!

[nkw8181]

I'm looking into putting a single layer of carbon/color fiber over the existing panels (wet layup) for looks only. Im estimating maybe 1000$ in materials or that is what ive been told. Oh and a HUGE amount of time laying up before wetting it followed by alot of time getting a smooth finish. Just my two cents. Was turned on to this sight. I like the carbon/blue fiber mix and the honeycomb for accent interior.

http://www.sollercomposites.com

[nkw8181]

Probably gonna stay away from the front piece, engine hoops. The rear piece I'm unsure about.

[DruOdil]

So your going to do it your self?

[DodgyTim]

I have applied a layer of carbon/kevlar composite over the outside of a marine ply hovercraft hull
The hover was largely flat surfaces, with straight joins, it was still a lot more difficult to do than I had envisaged
To get it looking good it is more than getting the air out, it looks pretty average when the fibers aren't perfectly straight
Also the resin needs to be clear, and the viscosity is important or it can sag a little, which from 10 feet is ok on a boat, but not up to car standards
I'd suggest testing on another panel, maybe a leftover donor panel or similar, to perfect you technique before laying resin on the 818
Cheers
Tim

[Xusia]

at that point vinyl wrap makes sense.

[nkw8181]

Yea if I do it, I would do it myself. How much I end up doing is another matter. And I know that saying it is a lot of work is an understatement but we will see what I end up with just thought I'd through that out there. The material I would use comes 50in wide and by the yard so my thinking is now whatever I do it should be a solid piece with no patching together. The way I'm looking laying it up is put the fiber where I want it and brush the epoxy on, squeegee some it while pushing it in. Once it drys go back with what I'm told is a finishing epoxy and finally lots and lots and lot of sanding. Anyone see flaws in my approach other then time?

[DodgyTim]

nkw8181,
Just a few comments on your plan, please don't take this as me being negative to your idea, I'm just trying to help you by my limited experience:)

The 50 inch wide cloth I got was folded for postage, about 6-12 inches in from the side. I'm not sure if this was an international postage limit or a USPS limit, but the fold disrupts the weave a bit, OK for structural but lousy for decorative work

Don't underestimate the difficulty in cutting the carbon cloth neatly, kevlar even more so. Invest in the proper cutters

Formability of the cloth is a bit dependant on the weave type, and also the weight. Thinner cloth is easier to drape, but with a white panel underneath, any imperfections would really stand out. Prepaint the surface black? and/or I'd test on a white panel before investing too much $ in cloth

I never sprayed the resin, all mine was applied with a roller or brush. Normally you wet the surface, apply the cloth, then roll the resin up through the cloth to avoid air pockets. Applying the resin to the cloth after it is draped on the surface is possible, you just have to be careful to get all the air out. Brush applied resin tends to go on fairly thick, and takes time to cure, so sag can be a problem. Your idea of squeegee'ing the excess resin makes sense, but I've never tried it. After that lots of coats of low viscosity clear and lots of sanding and you may be OK.

I tried to find a photo of the hovercraft but I'm travelling and don't have access at the moment.

Cheers

[Mechie3]

The place that was going to do hoods for me was going to split it down the middle and do an arrow pattern because the hood was just too wide to use a single standard width cloth.

[nkw8181]

Thanks for the input Dodgy I stool have some time to sort things out but always love feedback. The company I would order from has this on there sight.

"1st - We roll your fabric onto a cardboard core (we never fold composite fabric!)
2nd- We wrap your cloth in a plastic liner to protect it and keep it clean
3rd - We wrap your fabric in paper padding to protect it inside the shipping box
4th - We enclose that in a cardboard box & seal all box edges to make it virtually waterproof"

I didn't think of the issue with it being white. I had planned on scuffing up the surface and not sure if there would be a benefit to painting it back after that. Wetting before I put the fiber down puts me on a clock which is why I looked at putting it down then applying the epoxy. I just have to determine the general direction I want to go because that will effect what color I powder coat the frame.


nkw8181,
Just a few comments on your plan, please don't take this as me being negative to your idea, I'm just trying to help you by my limited experience:)

The 50 inch wide cloth I got was folded for postage, about 6-12 inches in from the side. I'm not sure if this was an international postage limit or a USPS limit, but the fold disrupts the weave a bit, OK for structural but lousy for decorative work

Don't underestimate the difficulty in cutting the carbon cloth neatly, kevlar even more so. Invest in the proper cutters

Formability of the cloth is a bit dependant on the weave type, and also the weight. Thinner cloth is easier to drape, but with a white panel underneath, any imperfections would really stand out. Prepaint the surface black? and/or I'd test on a white panel before investing too much $ in cloth

I never sprayed the resin, all mine was applied with a roller or brush. Normally you wet the surface, apply the cloth, then roll the resin up through the cloth to avoid air pockets. Applying the resin to the cloth after it is draped on the surface is possible, you just have to be careful to get all the air out. Brush applied resin tends to go on fairly thick, and takes time to cure, so sag can be a problem. Your idea of squeegee'ing the excess resin makes sense, but I've never tried it. After that lots of coats of low viscosity clear and lots of sanding and you may be OK.

I tried to find a photo of the hovercraft but I'm travelling and don't have access at the moment.

Cheers

[nkw8181]

Mechie3 is the hood wider the 50 in? Oh and here is as link to the site

http://www.solarcomposites.com/composites/compositehybrid.html#coloredfiberglass


The place that was going to do hoods for me was going to split it down the middle and do an arrow pattern because the hood was just too wide to use a single standard width cloth.

[carbon fiber]

getting a good cosmetic finish on a large complex curve part is going to be hard. the white gelcoat will definitely show through with just one layer of cf (most use a dark gelcoat prep for that) and the weave will be distorted. wetting the cf out and getting the trapped air bubbles out is part of what makes it hard. putting cf on top of gelcoat isn't a good idea in my opinion anyway. smaller parts are commonly done with this method but are much easier. making these out of a mold is (imho) is the only way to do a decent job. with epoxy pre-peg and autoclave or vacuum epoxy resin infusion. otherwise you're spending a lot of money to get a heavier, and not very attractive part. not trying to rain on your parade at all, just seems like that money would be better spent on a quality paint job.