Donor vs no donor

[mobius]

I would rather do this build without a donor if possible. I am going aftermarket ecu and harnesses. Figured I could pick up a JDM sti motor and 6 speed tranny. and alacarte of ebay all other needed parts.


any thoughts?

[RM1SepEx]

Anything is possible... :) Pros and cons exist for virtually every decision that you make.

[mobius]

well true. Just wondering if there are tons of small parts that will be difficult to source if a donor is not used. was hoping someone currently buiding one could chime in.

[longislandwrx]

Nope there are really not that many parts needed, and most of them can be aftermarket.


You might end up paying a little more but there's no donor to strip.

[Oppenheimer]

Sometimes the OEM fasteners are specialty where the length or the bolt head or whatever is unique to the application, and trying to substitute off-the-shelf fasteners is not quite an exact fit. So sometimes the OEM fasteners are just a better fit, or better look, or just easier to work with.

I would think if you can find someone local parting out a WRX or even just an Impreza, you could obtain all the little pieces and fasteners you need cheaply, since most of that stuff is going to be stuff no one else (no one looking for parts to fix their Subie) wants. So guy parting out will be happy to unload cheap.

Then you'll need a plan for restoring the nasty old stuff so its worthy of your dream car. There are build threads here detailing how to do that.

[Xusia]

The items on the donor parts list probably won't be too bad to source (I've had to buy many already). One issue is going to be other/optional stuff off the donor you may want (heater, wipers, etc.) that isn't part of the standard build. When you add it all up, it's a fair amount of stuff.

Another issue (see post above) is fasteners. There are a lot of them, and they are all high quality ($$). I'm trying to keep a list of OEM hardware used for each donor part. Partly because the manual doesn't list them (it just says "use OEM hardware"), and partly for those who would simply like to buy all new hardware (like me, but in this case it will be too late for me - for this build anyway).

[FFRSpec72]

I will be doing my build without a donor, I have most of the parts that I will need from a partout of a 2002 WRX on CL. I got the following:

1. Pedal box and throttle pedal
2. Master cylinder with brake booster
3. Clutch master cylinder
4. Rear lower lateral links, toe links, and CV joints
5. Steering Column with Keys, Steering rack
6. Steering knuckle
7. Front Left and Right knuckles (spindles)
8. Dash pod (gauges)
9. Front CV axles
10. Wire Harness
11. Other small parts/hardware and nuts/bolts that I need (as the source from above has 3-4 stripped donors)

Using the SPT Aluminum LCA, just ordered spindle (front/rear) rebuild kit along with steering rack boots/tie rod ends and will go with the GDS trailing arm and rear lateral links.

So far this has been about $1600 for these used and new parts w/o having to strip and take care of donor

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I am making a list of all the parts I use and where they come from.
Here is an example of the front spindle assembly
Bob

25559

[FFRSpec72]

Bob, would be nice if you can share that as it would be a good starting point for me also

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, would be nice if you can share that as it would be a good starting point for me also
I will when it is accurate, That's why I only took a snap shot of this page.
I have been focusing on building instead of documenting. Sounds like one of my software development projects.
Bob

[mobius]

Yea a list like that would be great! as of right now I am thinking aftermarket ecu probably haltech so only need engine harness. ISIS power systems for all wiring. wilwood pedal box with brake and clutch masters. race pack for the dash. pushbutton start.

JDM ej207 for a motor
JDM 6 speed tranny
ebay all suspension parts or aftermarket depending.

so most donor items i do not need. other than steering rack, driveline, suspension stuff.

[FFRSpec72]

Yea a list like that would be great! as of right now I am thinking aftermarket ecu probably haltech so only need engine harness. ISIS power systems for all wiring. wilwood pedal box with brake and clutch masters. race pack for the dash. pushbutton start.

JDM ej207 for a motor
JDM 6 speed tranny
ebay all suspension parts or aftermarket depending.

so most donor items i do not need. other than steering rack, driveline, suspension stuff.

Same with me except going 5sp as it is a little cheaper and I can find these easy when I break them !

[FuelXC]

I was wondering the same thing. I rather get a longblock and tranny than source them from a salvage. New car new drivetrain. Getting the donor stripped isn't so much a concern, but what to do with it after... Can't see anyone wanting a salvaged body other than a scrap metal place...

818donors or FFR should put together a hardware/fastener kit. I bet there would be a lot of takers.

[mobius]

yea a fastener kit would be a great idea.

[FFRSpec72]

yea a fastener kit would be a great idea.

What type of fasteners are you talking about that I will need besides miscellaneous nuts/bolts?

[Xusia]

^You already said it: Nuts & bolts. There are a lot of them and since they are for specific purposes, they have specific designs (part threaded, part unthreaded - not sure how important that is).

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Do you Guys realize that the kit comes with most the bolts you need.
The bolts I bought from BellMetric and McMasterCarr was because I wanted cleaner, stronger or better fit.
This list for the control arms show bolts supplied by FFR in Green.
Bob

25562

[wleehendrick]

Do you Guys realize that the kit comes with most the bolts you need.
25562

Yes, it's mostly the larger metric suspension bolts that are re-used and the manual just calls out to "use the OEM hardware". I would have preferred them specifically called out in the manual, to make ordering new hardware simple. (a kit would be ideal) If FFR did this once, and published it, it would save all builders the trouble.

[Xusia]

^I agree, but that is a fair amount to ask. It's not like a 5 minute task...

[wleehendrick]

It's not trivial, but in the grand scheme, minor. It would save a lot of us a lot of time if the manual also stated "use the OEM hardware, or a new class 10.9 65mm M14 bolt and nut (for example)"

[FuelXC]

Do you Guys realize that the kit comes with most the bolts you need.
The bolts I bought from BellMetric and McMasterCarr was because I wanted cleaner, stronger or better fit.


And that is what I want, I want new clean bolts... If possible, I would prefer to try and get as many parts new that either a) i wanted to upgrade b) are worn so you need to replace anyways or c) the cost of new is marginal to used.

Mainly so I don't have to get a donor. Especially don't want a donor just for random bolts. With that said, i am inquiring to 818donors but they seem to have a huge backlog.

[Xusia]

<sigh> Well I'm at the right point in the build to document this, so I guess I'll do that. It will take me some time to get it all together...

[wleehendrick]

<sigh> Well I'm at the right point in the build to document this, so I guess I'll do that. It will take me some time to get it all together...

I wasn't implying that you do it, Xusia. But if you do, I'll nominate you for the next Community Service award!

[FuelXC]

we should take up a donation pool for whoever ends up producing a list

[flynntuna]

<sigh> Well I'm at the right point in the build to document this, so I guess I'll do that. It will take me some time to get it all together...

This is a valuable service to the community, all the future builders will be thankful.

[Xusia]

LOL - I wasn't so much complaining. I think I'm a logical choice, and I acknowledge that. It was more the fact that taking the time to do this is yet another of a long, and unrelated, series of delays! I want this thing built, darn it!! :D

[Oppenheimer]

...Getting the donor stripped isn't so much a concern, but what to do with it after... Can't see anyone wanting a salvaged body other than a scrap metal place...

You sell all the bolt on stuff to local WRX guys that are fixing their crash damage. Doors, fenders, hood, trunk, bumpers, grill, etc. If you buy a wreck, there will be a few of those parts already damaged that you can't sell. But then you paid a lot less for the car.

Either way you left with a shell, that if damaged yes, only a scrap yard will take (and you may have to chop it up into pieces for them to take it). But if its undamaged body, you could sell it whole as a shell project to someone building a rally car.

I hate though to see perfectly servicable cars used as donors. Seems 'better' to recycle a wrecked car. But again, if you find a local guy parting a wrecked car, most of the hard to buy new donor bits are going to be stuff he won't be able to sell to WRX crowd anyway, so you should be able to get for a good deal.

[Scargo]

If you are not using a donor, is there any better option for the rear knuckle/upright than '05+WRX?
An STi knuckle will work, with modifications. That would be a starting point for me. I want 5 X 114 lug pattern.
I have an'08 and I like the brake caliper mount better and I was able to get rid of the dust shield portion of the backing plate and allow for better cooling and less weight. The backing plate on the GDs is massive. Part of it's mass is needed to hold the caliper. I guess some of it could be cut away.
Is there any other version of a Subaru rear suspension that has the big bearings and 5 X 114 hubs of the '05+ WRX/STi that deals with the backing plate and caliper mounting any differently ? Should I make my own custom caliper mount? I don't want a parking brake.

[flynntuna]

Would anyone have changed the way you went, ...wished they went donor vs non donor or visa versa? Are there a lot of small parts that are used on the 818s that make going the donor route a better choice?

I'm considering using my current DD (03 forester) as a donor, but I won't be using the engine ,harness or rear spindles and brakes since I'm considering an ez36 with an aftermarket ECU harness and a drum to disc conversion, is a bad decision?

[STiPWRD]

I went the donor route and would do it again. In the end it's cheaper and you don't have to spend time tracking down small parts but involves more time stripping the donor and requires space to store parts, which was not a problem for me. I did end up selling almost all of the unneeded parts and upgrading many of the parts that I was supposed to use. Virtually all the parts going on the 818 have been either completely refurbished or replaced with new.

My donor (02 wrx) was also my daily driver for many years but the motor had died so I knew I was going to be rebuilding that. I sold the stripped down shell (undamaged) to a guy building a track car for $500. In total, I've sold close to $6k worth of unused parts.

[Tamra]

We've sold more than the cost of our overpriced donor, so it's like we got all of the major components for free (well, we rebuilt the engine and bought a new turbo and had a lot of hours put into it... but still). We also learned a lot in the tear down process, and had the opportunity to tag all of the electrical connectors, which was helpful considering we are using the donor harness. Considering we were not planning on building our engine (lying seller, long story), it would have been a very economical build. Had we bought a donor with say, a bearing failure, for half the price, we would be doing extremely well on total cost.

At least with a donor, you have the opportunity to make money back. I think if you are planning on using the major components of the car, then donor is the way to go. I guess even if you aren't planning on using them, you can sell them and make money on the part-out to purchase whatever parts you want instead... just depends on how many hours you want to spend.

[flynntuna]

Is this list from the disassemble manual complete?

[wleehendrick]

The ebrake cable brackets are missing; it's technically not part of the ebrake handle, and I didn't get them from my donor. I need to get those, or fab a bracket to hook up to my Lokar handle. Also, although is says you need the sway bar mounts, they don't fit; you need new ones to run the sway bar.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Is this list from the disassemble manual complete?

I would save all the window stuff, if your thinking about as coupe.

[Ken Allwine]

If you decide to buy all new, are you sourcing the complete steering column from Subaru?

[RetroRacing]

We are doing our r without a doner, buy a 10.5 metric bolt kit and buy some grade 5 bolts, everything else off eBay including two identical STI RA engine/transmissions for $4k total, but, you will pay more than with a doner. We just want everything new and strong, but with quality comes a price.....

[wallace18]

Having built 2 818's and working on my 3rd one I would like to share my thoughts on this topic. The first 818 I built I bought a 2002 WRX and stripped it myself. The second one was a kit a customer bought and he stripped the donor. This one I am building now we bought a donor pallet. The pros of a donor pallet is you do not have to deal with getting rid of the unneeded stuff after harvesting the parts you need. The cons of the pallet are you don't always know what car the parts came from and are at the mercy of the supplier for all the correct parts. The pros of buying a donor is that you get to possibly drive the car and see its running condition. Also you get an intimate knowledge of where every parts goes and where it came from. The cons are you must get rid of unwanted stuff, however you can sell some of it and recoup costs. IMO if you have the time and space get a running donor and strip it yourself. don't get rid of anything till your kit is finished. That is my 2 cents worth on this topic.

[tirod]

Parts counter guy here: donor is the way to go in whatever way you can. Not saying a car absolutely needs to be donor sourced, but the "bits and pieces" are simply not available new anywhere.

I get hot rod builders into the store nearly every day all summer, and twice on weekends, looking for a particular bolt or assembly - not happening. Auto parts stores don't stock things to the depth many think. They carry the commonly refurbished or replacement parts that wear out - not the bolts, brackets, or mechanical bits that never do. As said, an auto bolt isn't just some hardware store swingset fastener - it's an engineered, designed, tested, and approved part number which isn't in general distribution at Ace or the lumberyard. The manufacturer went thru the whole approval process with the vendor, first article, etc., and then the shipment in bulk went from factory to factory - no middle men.

Automakers don't buy bolts on the open market - and open market bolts don't go into autos. Most of the 24,000 parts are never open market hardware - you get them OEM or not at all. If you do want an exact replacement - expect long leads, not a quick trip to the local auto parts or hardware store on Sunday afternoon.

This is an essential part of what kits are - if bolts were all sitting on the shelf shiny new for any possible combination of parts, the kit industry would have a much much bigger market share and it would be a dirt common thing up and down the block. Bolts, fasteners, and small parts are the challenge of building - nobody stocks them in any quantity except one major source - salvage and wrecking yards, and only due to human error. It's not planned logistical supply chain activity, it's what America does best, make a buck off someone's misfortune.

A coworker just suffered thru a final two weeks of someone finishing a project build, the mechanic was making about half a dozen calls every day plus trips into the store for every widget or fastener he needed - and getting a 10 - 15% success rate. The hardware industry does not support auto building to any great depth, it's industrial based, those who make fasteners and parts for cars nearly always ship direct to the plant and there's no shelf stock to speak of.

Nothing wrong with a "no-donor" build but you should expect delays and even a complete lack of sources for brand new stuff - because even the dealers don't. Federal law now says they only have to source - not necessarily have on hand - parts to cover the last seven years of production, which mainly covers warranty repairs. Completely build a car from NOS from the ground up, every nut, clip, bolt, or fastener?

Nobody can do that - even with Willys Jeeps, Mustangs, or 55 Chevy's. You have to source OEM from donors to get the original bits, and again, it's wrecking yards who dominate that market. Kits are about reusing donor parts - its their inherent nature to recycle inexpensive mass production parts from an OEM model to cut costs.

All brand new bolts are your choice, I would expect that if you do, you have a lot of professional certification on the subject as it's your risk if one fails. I would rather trust a suspension bolt that came from a donor with 150,000 miles than a hardware store substitute from China with no idea of it's alloy or heat treatment. I know some have that working knowledge to source good new bolts but the majority of kit builders are not professional mechanical engineers. They are much better off not flirting with failure with the dynamic application.

Hence the reason F5 says "use the existing OEM fastener." It's the right one for the job - and in 10,000 miles, a new bolt will look just as grundgy. Safety is more important than pretty.

Nobody would expect to find new Subaru head bolts at Lowe's on Sunday - and a suspension bolt is even MORE critical. If the head bolt fails the engine could possibly keep running. If an A- arm bolt fails under stress going 70 in a hard right decreasing radius turn, the car will likely exit the roadway in a completely unanticipated direction. There's plenty of lug stud's failing out there already due to improper combinations of wheels and hubs, we don't want to add free market bolts to the suspension and expect a higher margin of safety working the suspension further than the factory anticipated.

A good read on the subject - very little has changed over the years: http://www.amazon.com/Fasteners-Plumbing-Handbook-Motorbooks-Workshop/dp/0879384069

[Soon2B818]

Having built 2 818's and working on my 3rd one I would like to share my thoughts on this topic. The first 818 I built I bought a 2002 WRX and stripped it myself. The second one was a kit a customer bought and he stripped the donor. This one I am building now we bought a donor pallet. The pros of a donor pallet is you do not have to deal with getting rid of the unneeded stuff after harvesting the parts you need. The cons of the pallet are you don't always know what car the parts came from and are at the mercy of the supplier for all the correct parts. The pros of buying a donor is that you get to possibly drive the car and see its running condition. Also you get an intimate knowledge of where every parts goes and where it came from. The cons are you must get rid of unwanted stuff, however you can sell some of it and recoup costs. IMO if you have the time and space get a running donor and strip it yourself. don't get rid of anything till your kit is finished. That is my 2 cents worth on this topic.

Where did you buy your donor pallet from? everyone I call seems to not be offering the service anymore.

[wallace18]

Where did you buy your donor pallet from? everyone I call seems to not be offering the service anymore.
Very cool parts see them in the Vender section here in the forum.

[Soon2B818]

Ah, they were my very first call Monday morning :) Thanks for the reply.

[Wayne Presley]

Where did you buy your donor pallet from? everyone I call seems to not be offering the service anymore.

I have them in stock.
I have a nice 06 with a fresh motor built on an STI shortblock, fresh heads, new timing set, new clutch, surfaced flywheel plus all of the 06 parts

[Soon2B818]

I have them in stock.
I have a nice 06 with a fresh motor built on an STI shortblock, fresh heads, new timing set, new clutch, surfaced flywheel plus all of the 06 parts

I'll call you first thing tomorrow morning to discuss, I'm definitely interested, as '06 was seemingly the year to pick as I've been reading. I'll also be looking for ECU, Wire Harness and really any and all things you could provide for completion as I'm trying to avoid using a donor. Wayne you seem extremely knowledgeable on the 818's, in your opinion Dieted Stock Harness vs. Infinity Wiring System if money wasn't a factor in the opinion?

[Wayne Presley]

The Infinity is very nice and a viable alternative to having your stock harness dieted. So lets say you get a dieted harness with stock ECU ($2200) and then add a Cobb V3 acessport ($650). You need the Infinity 6/8 to get the drive by wire throttle control.

[Maximus]

Are you referring to the AEM Infinity or the InfinityBox system?

[Wayne Presley]

AEM Infinity