Engine and Trans

[msmith6773]

I am wanting a cobra 427 carbed complete engine thats brand new, does anyone know of a great place to get one and or someone that builds them that will fit right into the MK4...also i have heard a lot about the TKO 500 and 600 and some of the issues with changing gears. can anyone shed some light on this for me please..?

[chopthebass]

I am wanting a cobra 427 carbed complete engine thats brand new, does anyone know of a great place to get one and or someone that builds them that will fit right into the MK4...also i have heard a lot about the TKO 500 and 600 and some of the issues with changing gears. can anyone shed some light on this for me please..?

I'd be keen to know of shifting problems with the TKO-600 because that's what I am planning!

[msmith6773]

yeah ive heard a few different things and not sure exactly what the issue is and if theres a fix im not looking for a strip car just a higher perfomance street and driver

[edwardb]

This is another one of those subjects that gets discussed a lot. T-5's of various forms have been used in these builds for years. You will get lots of opinions. Here's my experience and opinion FWIW. The T-5 uses a single rail shift mechanism, and has always been recognized as an excellent shifting manual trans. As power and demands went up, Tremec brought out the TKO series. In addition to much larger gears and such, these use a three rail shift mechanism, and most agree they don't shift as smooth or easily as a T-5. Some find they break in and are fine. Some never like them. Some of the discussion about shifting with the TKO's is around shifting at higher RPM's. I've heard statements like won't go into 3rd about 7,000 RPM. Could be other variations, but every one I've heard is above ranges we typically see in our builds. So that one I'm not too worried about. There is an aftermarket for mods to the TKO's that are supposed to make them shift better. My local Tremec Elite dealer -- Liberty's in Taylor, MI -- has several mods they claim make the TKO shift "just like a T-5." I purchased the TKO-600 for my Mk4 build from them, and had a couple things done to it. We'll see how it shifts compared to the T-5 in my Mk3. But I would have selected a stock TKO without any hesitation. They just happened to be local and thought I would give it a try. Finally there are companies that redo the T-5's so that they can handle similar torque/HP as the TKO's, while retaining the smaller size, weight and shift feel. Levy Racing, a forum vendor here, is one of them. That's an option that some have used. Bottom line though is TKO's are widely used in these builds and is an excellent choice. You can source it with confidence. Just be patient for it to break in and it should be fine.

[68GT500MAN]

For the engine, check with any of the forum suppliers. Levi and Forte's would be my first two places to check. They can also supply the transmission.
Doug

[msmith6773]

thanks that really helps..i know that the T-5 is not really made to handle the power and torque of the 427 about 500hp or have they gotten better?

[chopthebass]

This is another one of those subjects that gets discussed a lot. T-5's of various forms have been used in these builds for years. You will get lots of opinions. Here's my experience and opinion FWIW. The T-5 uses a single rail shift mechanism, and has always been recognized as an excellent shifting manual trans. As power and demands went up, Tremec brought out the TKO series. In addition to much larger gears and such, these use a three rail shift mechanism, and most agree they don't shift as smooth or easily as a T-5. Some find they break in and are fine. Some never like them. Some of the discussion about shifting with the TKO's is around shifting at higher RPM's. I've heard statements like won't go into 3rd about 7,000 RPM. Could be other variations, but every one I've heard is above ranges we typically see in our builds. So that one I'm not too worried about. There is an aftermarket for mods to the TKO's that are supposed to make them shift better. My local Tremec Elite dealer -- Liberty's in Taylor, MI -- has several mods they claim make the TKO shift "just like a T-5." I purchased the TKO-600 for my Mk4 build from them, and had a couple things done to it. We'll see how it shifts compared to the T-5 in my Mk3. But I would have selected a stock TKO without any hesitation. They just happened to be local and thought I would give it a try. Finally there are companies that redo the T-5's so that they can handle similar torque/HP as the TKO's, while retaining the smaller size, weight and shift feel. Levy Racing, a forum vendor here, is one of them. That's an option that some have used. Bottom line though is TKO's are widely used in these builds and is an excellent choice. You can source it with confidence. Just be patient for it to break in and it should be fine.

Hey Ed, what are the mods you are having done to your TKO? I have ordered my TKO-600 and I am concerned too. I have done some research today and discovered that teh break in procedure and type of oil can make a huge difference.

[CHOTIS BILL]

For an engine I went with a Ford Racing crate engine from Jegs because they had the best price.

For a transmission I chose the new Keisler SS700. It isn’t a 6 speed but is a new designed 5 speed all synchro even reverse overdrive transmission good for 7500 RPM and 700 bl/ft of torque. One of the main objectives of the new design was better shifting than the TKO600 as well as a higher torque rating. I don’t have it mounted in the car yet but it looks like the rear mount is in the same place as the TKO600 and has the same center shifting position. It took me quite a while to get mine because I order it before it was completely designed and tested but they are now in production and the last I heard were delivering about 25 per week and that is limited by the number of gears they receive from Legend Gear the company that makes the acutal gear part of the transmission. It is all made in the USA.

http://www.keislerauto.com/Keisler_Auto/Keisler_Engineering.html

In this link they are saying 7000RPM shifts but after testing it was raised to 7500.

Bill Lomenick

[edwardb]

thanks that really helps..i know that the T-5 is not really made to handle the power and torque of the 427 about 500hp or have they gotten better?

A stock T5 or T5z will not live long behind 500 hp if pushed very hard. They are rated in the 300's for HP and torque. Yes, guys run them with 500hp, but they will likely break. Aftermarket mods and gear sets, like offered by Gordon Levy, push the limits much higher.


Hey Ed, what are the mods you are having done to your TKO? I have ordered my TKO-600 and I am concerned too. I have done some research today and discovered that teh break in procedure and type of oil can make a huge difference.

TKO instructions specifically say to use GM Syncromesh fluid. When I picked it up, the dealer said the same thing. The actual labelled GM stuff. Not another brand that says "equivalent." I have heard as well that break-in is important, and not to judge too much until it has some miles on it.

The Tremec distributor I used does 5-6 mods. They're not a forum vendor, and some forum vendors sell Tremec. So I'm not promoting them other than to say that's what I chose to do. I was going to buy it locally anyway, and when I expressed concern that it would shift as well as my T5, they offered the upgrade. It wasn't that much in the grand scheme, so went for it. While I have the trans in the car, I haven't run or driven it yet, so I can't say how much it helps. You can read more details on their website. http://www.libertysgears.com/ Like I said before, though, I was going to buy the TKO600 anyway, and I wasn't too worried it would be fine. This just maybe increases my odds a little.

[cgundermann]

I purchased a brand new G-Force T-5 from Jegs and it is rated at double the power of a traditional T-5 (600 horsepower); just an option...

[NukeMMC]

I am wanting a cobra 427 carbed complete engine thats brand new, does anyone know of a great place to get one and or someone that builds them that will fit right into the MK4
Mike Forte can get you set up with a 427 FE (big block) Carroll Shelby aluminum engine or a Ford Racing 427 small block (351W special block stroked to 427). Both will "drop in" to a Mk4 roadster ... as much as any engine will "drop in" to one of these. He will dyno them for you and send them to your doorstep.
Mike is good people. He will answer the questions, give advice and let you make up your own mind. He did with me. That is why I bought my TKO 600 from him, plus a bunch of other stuff. His prices are also very competitive.

[msmith6773]

For an engine I went with a Ford Racing crate engine from Jegs because they had the best price.

For a transmission I chose the new Keisler SS700. It isn’t a 6 speed but is a new designed 5 speed all synchro even reverse overdrive transmission good for 7500 RPM and 700 bl/ft of torque. One of the main objectives of the new design was better shifting than the TKO600 as well as a higher torque rating. I don’t have it mounted in the car yet but it looks like the rear mount is in the same place as the TKO600 and has the same center shifting position. It took me quite a while to get mine because I order it before it was completely designed and tested but they are now in production and the last I heard were delivering about 25 per week and that is limited by the number of gears they receive from Legend Gear the company that makes the acutal gear part of the transmission. It is all made in the USA.

http://www.keislerauto.com/Keisler_Auto/Keisler_Engineering.html

In this link they are saying 7000RPM shifts but after testing it was raised to 7500.

Bill Lomenick

how well does it fit into the car and are there any mount mods needed>?

[msmith6773]

I purchased a brand new G-Force T-5 from Jegs and it is rated at double the power of a traditional T-5 (600 horsepower); just an option...

how well does it fit into the car?

[cgundermann]

Perfect...

[msmith6773]

no issues i take it? what motor are you using?

[msmith6773]

oh what spline did you use?

[msmith6773]

sorry one more question which G-Force T-5 did you use? gear wise?

[CHOTIS BILL]

msmith6773,

The best I can tell SS700 is about 1/8 inch longer than a TKO-600. The bell housing bolt pattern can be ordered to fit just about any bell housing and the shift lever locations looks to be the same as a TKO-600. The only change I have found so far that needs to be addressed is the rear transmission mount is drilled for a Chevy so I purchased a 1975 Camaro mount and made an adaptor plate to make it fit the Type 65 frame. I have been meaning to revisit that part and see if the standard FFR supplied mount can’t be made to work. The front of the case is different so the Mike Forte hydraulic clutch mounting bracket wouldn’t work so I had to make a new one but everything else on Mikes system works great. I haven’t had a chance to drop the engine and trans in yet but I don’t see anything that come close to raising a red flag.

Bill Lomenick

[CraigS]

I wouldn't be too concerned about a trans mount. The frame piece that the mount bolts to has a large variety of holes and slots. Also, that piece bolts to the main frame of the car. So, if it needed to be modded, it's easy to remove, do the mod and reinstall.

[cgundermann]

I am using a 450 horse 347 EFI stroker and I am running 3:55 gears in the rear end. The G-Force is a 2.95 synchronized T-5 in a new G-Force manufactured case. It uses a Ford 28 spline input shaft (different than a stock T-5/think the same as a TKO 500/600) and shifts like silk. Only weighs 78 pounds...

Very happy with the quality and craftsmanship. Fits like a glove in in my MK4.

[msmith6773]

sounds great! thanks! do you use it as a drive or street/strip? or race?

[cgundermann]

It will be used for street and occasional strip.

[cgundermann]

Oh, and the Pro 5.0 short throw shifter works terrific with this...

[Gordon Levy]

Give me a call, I can help with everything you are asking for. 520-494-2745.

[msmith6773]

ok thanks

[CHOTIS BILL]

I thought I should give you an update on the Keisler SS700 transmission. They have filed for Chapter 7 bankruptcy. They are trying to sell all their product lines to someone who will keep the operation open but for now here are the full details.

http://campaign.r20.constantcontact.com/render?llr=pcwmfmcab&v=001Akwh5HY8vpzggN_0Idt2Gqad7IAXhnKmsaelxV9qW4xUr 0_NwpTm8FvkiFio5Fg-qnzJmCziD53lCyku47SKWB8NBTmaAo8uUjbI7IrPRoyUHfwztB 51t4fec4IfBqEg9lsip8VnGP8avR-cao3r78vAP8mdI6K5P8rXRVSrHbQ%3D

Bill Lomenick

[msmith6773]

wow ok thanks that sucks

[mike forte]

Hi Guys,
I've been selling manual transmissions & all related clutch & bellhousing parts since 1982 when I went direct with Doug Nash Engineering. I've been direct with Tremec since 1993 when I modified a Ford 3550 into a GM bolt pattern 3550.
That said i have thousands of Tremec 3550 models which became TKO models since 1995.
The shifting issues overall have been minor but for those with a shifting issue it really stunk. Remove the transmission and the factory support wasn't everything a owner would be happy with.
So the mods that are being done by Liberty are now being done in house. Most shifting issues were 4 years ago and then a few in 2012. Yes it costs a extra to blueprint the shifting mechanism but it does make sure the shifting will not be an issue. Myself, I would install the new TKO and see how it shifts first because the issues are now behind us.
If anyone has any questions feel free to call me.
Mike Forte
Forte's Parts Connection
508 875 0016
mikeforte302@gmail.com